I'm looking at making an Archer Cleric for a party that has a lot of melee characters.
Right now the party is level 6.
I want to focus on spellcasting with Archery being a second.
It's a 18,16,14,12,10,8 spread for the stats. Obviously I'm going to pop the 18 in WIS and the 16 in Dex.
What are your recommendations for Feats and Spells to cast?
What do you think is the best race for this? I'm thinking Dwarf.
Dwarves are a great race in general for the racial benefits---but IF your cleric channels positive energy, that -2 Cha from Dwarves will hurt. (Unless you make up for it with Feat Extra Channel, +2 uses per day.)
Are you the only or primary party healer AND using channeling? The better your channeling is, the more likely you can reserve your spellcasting for buffs and attacks. Also if you will primarily be healing in combat (which is common), you're better off with Feat Selective Channel (exclude enemy targets from receiving your healing, up to one target per Cha modifier).
What domains are you looking at?
For feats, Archery progression demands Point-Blank Shot (a popular prerequisite and nice plus to hit) and Precise Shot (get rid of -4 in melee) as soon as possible. Build up to Rapid Shot (extra shooting), etc.
Human is nice for cleric because they are feat-starved and skill-point starved, I think. Check Advanced Player's Guide for alternate racial features to customize the character to what you want---e.g., Half-Orc makes a nice tough cleric with orc ferocity, one who can heal himself back up after he'd normally be unconscious.
Good for you, building a cleric that can do some weapon damage and fill a combat role other than buffing/healing! I'd like to see more of that in my group.
Good luck!
I'm looking at making an Archer Cleric for a party that has a lot of melee characters.
Right now the party is level 6.
I want to focus on spellcasting with Archery being a second.
It's a 18,16,14,12,10,8 spread for the stats. Obviously I'm going to pop the 18 in WIS and the 16 in Dex.
What are your recommendations for Feats and Spells to cast?
What do you think is the best race for this? I'm thinking Dwarf.
Dump dex and worship a deity that has a longbow for a favored weapon, then you get to take the guided hand feat:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand
Which allows you to use your wisdom mod to hit instead of dex. You have to take channel smite though, which isn't ideal, but it's a decent single attribute feat.
Otherwise, yes, point blank shot and precise shot.
prototype00
I haven't quite decided on domains yet. I think one to improve spell casting and one to improve archery would be good.
It just occurred to me - is there a way to make cure spells ranged without meta magic?
Edit: and without limited use magic items too if possible.
I agree with prototype. Human cleric of Erastil. +2 to wis for a 20,
take guided hand and channel smite, and you can stop worrying about dex. 16 cha, 14 str (for damage bonus on the attacks) 12 dex (+2 item at some point will let you take deadly aim)
Erastil's domains arent amazing, but this will keep your ranged attacks up as a very nice secondary option while still being able to pump out spells and channel very well.
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It's not archery but the fire domain allows you access to produce flame and this will allow you to attack foes at a distance using ranged touch attacks. At 6th level you'd get 6 attacks and may be combined with rapid shot, two-weapon fighting, and metamagic feats to offer considerable stopping power.
Also,back to archery, the War domain gives you access to many feats that may be used with your archery. If you stay LG you can use "Bestow Grace of the Champion". The conductive ability is also a good one.
Good ideas btw, thanks.
Do you know if variant channeling applies to smite?
Would you recommend, say, pain (harm) if it does apply?
Manyshot has a dex requirement of 17
Well that sucks...
Manyshot has a dex requirement of 17Well that sucks...
belt of dexterity...
Keep in mind this is your secondary focus. Losing manyshot is really not that big of a deal.
Thats why I recommended keeping cha at 16. being well rounded is gonna come in more handy in most campaigns than being the archer cleric who arches things all the blasted time.
You can do the cha things with cleric spells. Get that dex high enough to be decent with a bow and you can do both.
Arch it up man! Dex 16, belt of dex gives you 18, you can have manyshot, get another AC bump, another +1 to hit with your bow all day long.
If you absolutely need to do some cha stuff, that's what "eagle's splendor" is for.
Here is my first draft of a 15 point Human Cleric of a Nature goddess (for the longbow). The campaign will probably begin with a sea voyage.
S13 D10 C12 I10 W17 Ch13 HP9
No minuses since I need some skills and I do not want to fall off the ship with low dexterity.
Feats: Channel Smite, Guided Hand
Domains: Good, Feather
Composite Longbow, Hide since we are on a ship.
Orisons for the day: Light, Detect Magic,Create Water
Prayers for the day: Protection versus Evil (Good domain), Divine Favour, Shield of Faith (maybe Air Bubble, but a one minute duration might not enough time to save a drowning man).
As a human cleric, even at 7 int you get 3 skills per level if you take favored class bonus skills (which if you are an archer is more effective). not a big deal to drop it. you only get 4 otherwise.
Several archery feats require Dex 13. I'd aim for a 14 in it. And agree with Weables. When your skill points is 2+int, a 7 is just as good as a 9. Best to dump it to 7 for points, be human, and use favored class bonus.
Don't worry too much about Manyshot. It's nice, but not essential, and you can't get it until at least 9th level anyway.
Does Erastil offer Feather subdomain? That's a nice one for an archer, perception bonuses and flight spells, and you get a meat shield.
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Just poppin' in to give my 2 cp.
Guided weapon: fantastic choice but make sure to get your DM approval before-hand. As said is paizo but 3.5, so not core: you do not want to build your character around it and discover at the first arrow shot that it's not allowed.
Focus: choose your focus wisely. There are far better classes for archery, you will suck at it if you don't dedicate yourself to it entirely: on the other end, you will not be very good anyway. You can choose to be an effective cleric (high wis and metamagic feats) and a recreational archer (decent if guided weapons are allowed) or you can be decent at both if you focus on archery. As said, you will never be very good at archery, but archery is perhaps the most effective combat style of the game, so being decent will be enough in some games.
From now on I'll assume you want to focus on archery.
Race: Human is the best (except maybe vanara if allowed). You need all the feats you can get, archery is very demanding, and the extra skill point is nice since you'll need to dump int. Favored class I'd put in hit points.
If guided weapon is allowed put the bonus in WIS, otherwise in DEX. As for stats, if guided is allowed, put that wis through the roof: is not, your highest stat should be DEX (level increments should all go there), followed by WIS (something like 14 is enough to cast spells with the help of items without further increments) and STR (at least 12, 14 would be nice: most likely deadly aim will not do you much good, a bit of STR will help you but don't sacrifice your to hit as that's what matter the most). INT and CHA are dumps, CON should not be negative but hopefully you will not be in melee a lot (at least 12 though).
Feats: point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot are a definite must, get them as soon as you can.
Weapon focus is not a very impressive feat (and you have few of them) but you will have trouble hitting things reliably: you may need to take it.
Manyshot is fantastic: yes, DEX 17 is harsh if you focus on WIS, but this feat is unbelievably good. Without checking the number I'd say "go for it" even if you are using a guided weapon, it's that good.
Deadly aim: here I'm in trouble. Deadly aim is the feat that made archery go from meh to OMG. The thing with archery though is that you need to hit: as I said this will be difficult for you, adding additional penalties may not be a good idea. I'd need to run a few numbers but my guess is that most often than not you will not benefit a lot from it unless you are buffed like a steroid addict. Maybe others will have some insights on this, I'm split: I'll say that if guided weapon is allowed you may be better off without it, if not you may need it to pack some damage.
Improved precise shot: the feat that make rangers and zen archer so good at low-mid levels, you won't see this until level 16. You will have to deal with cover with tactics (I'd go for threatening the other PC: something like "get in the way and say goodbye to healing" should work).
Equipment: your to hit is the key.
For the weapon, there are two ways about it.
The first is to regularly cast greater magic weapon: buy a rod of extend for it and in time the beads of karma to increase your caster level. Since your enhancement bonus is covered, you can make your bow seeking, holy and keen: if you can predict what type of energy will be uncommon, the energy stuff could be useful too.
The other way is to simply upgrade your bow straight to +5 and then seeking, holy and other stuff: which to choose depends on your wealth by level. Since you need all the to hit you can get you may be probably better off with the second option, but if you are very poor go for the first option.
In both cases, if guided weapons are allowed, go for it (if guided weapon is allowed it will cost you a lot more to upgrade your weapon and thus the first route should be better).
Lesser bracers of archery are nice once your weapon is +2, the greater version of them is too expensive until high levels.
Depending on guided weapons, invest in belt of DEX or headband of WIS. Even if you focus on DEX, in time you will need the headband too to keep getting new spells.
As a general rule, you will be starving for money: the need to increase two stats and to have a very good weapon will live you pennyless. Compensate with just basic stuff for armor (most likely your AC won't be very good anyway, concentrate on staying out of trouble) and use spells to increase it.
For passing DR, keep handy all kinds of arrow (maybe use cold iron as your standard and keep handy the silver ones) and use align weapon for alignment.
Spells: there are some that are good for an archer.
Divine favor 1: one of the best, your basic buff
Aid: usually not worth it, only if you really have time to waste before combat.
Weapon of awe 2: +2 to damage, shake on crits. Not bad but not worth spending a round of combat to cast it: only as a buff before the start of the combat.
Daybreak arrow 3: nice duration, 1d6 damage to undead and vampires. If you you are going into a undead-infested dungeon this is good.
Magic vestment 3: A simple way to save money.
Sacred bond 3: not impressive but can help you healing from distance (of course healing during in combat is not a good option to begin with).
Blessing of fervor 4: in a way it's the poor man haste, but offers some other options. It will also help your fellow PCs if you don't have anyone casting haste. Probably overshadowed by divine power if you are selfish.
Divine power 4 : this substitute divine favor as your buff of choice at mid-to-high level.
Greater magic weapon 4: late entry and you are probably better off with buying the best bow you can get. If you are stuck with a crappy bow, use it.
Fickle winds 5: this will let you kill all those other archers who thought they were better than you.
Righteous might 5: only wanted to say that the standard buff for melee cleric does not work for you.
Blade barrier 6: good for defense, not your top priority in a fight but impressive spell nevertheless.
Bloodsworn retribution 6: if you have hps to spare (which you probably have not) this is very nice. It's from Elves of Golarion though, so check with your GM. For 25 hp less, a +5 bonus to hit and saves is good. Very risky though.
That's it.
I tried my best to offer you insights for a cleric that wants to be an archer.
My final insight is that you probably shouldn't unless guided weapons are allowed, and even then you are not going to really shine.
You will need to spend a lot of resources (and rounds, which are not meant to be wasted) just to get close to what other archers are able to do right from the start.
Multiclassing will not help you much: you need spells, even for a pure-archery perspective. If guided weapons are allowed, a level of monk may be handy for AC and saves but no more than that.
I still think that other classes will suit you better: paladins make very, very impressive archers (full BAB, smiting and access to most of the worthy spells). Inquisitors are good too: they get most of the good spells, the bane ability is fantastic and the right judgment can go miles to make you effective. Both classes can be thematically very similar to a cleric but make far better archers.
I thought guided hand was in Ultimate Combat, which most would consider core.
Guided hand is in ultimate combat. However it is sacrificing a feat to avoid putting a decent score in dex. One thing the OP will learn quickly is that his character is going to be severely feat starved if he truly wants to be a decent archer, since the archery feat tree is pretty much required to be effective in combat. Also guided hand doesn't do anything to help AC, initiative or any skills, where dex is one of the best stats to have since it is multi-functional.
I play an archer druid which has many of the same issues as an archer cleric. She is level 8 now and started with a 16 dex, now boosted to 18 with a belt of dexterity. She sacrificed strength for dex so her str is only 10, but she still performs well as an archer. She has Point Blank shot, Precise shot, Rapid shot and Manyshot. Since her attack bonus is fairly decent instead of a +2 bow, she has a +1 thundering bow which mostly makes up for her lack of strength.
I would recommend investing in a combat trained mount and the ride skill.
13 dex will get you everything except manyshot.
The rest can be put in WIS. You don't need manyshot to be an effective archer and if you are standing at the back a great AC is not needed.
13 dex will get you everything except manyshot.
The rest can be put in WIS. You don't need manyshot to be an effective archer and if you are standing at the back a great AC is not needed.
I respectfully disagree. Manyshot is probably the single best damage boost in the archer feat tree. An extra arrow damage without any attack penalty. That's huge.
And as far as "standing at the back" I suppose that's a real effective strategy if your GM has not discovered ranged weapons himself.
I respectfully disagree. Manyshot is probably the single best damage boost in the archer feat tree. An extra arrow damage without any attack penalty. That's huge.
And as far as "standing at the back" I suppose that's a real effective strategy if your GM has not discovered ranged weapons himself.
That's just a sacrifice you have to make. You can't make characters (especially with a 15 point buy- which I would never play) that can do everything. I'm not into the whole 7 Int and Cha cheese, so a PC is already stat starved.
You either focus on Wis and take the minimum Dex to get the basic feats and still be an awesome cleric (what you are supposed to be) as opposed to an awesome archer (which should be secondary). Doesn't matter if you have great Dex and ASS hit points because you will dead after a full attack round regardless (assuming you are the focus of any major damage dealing opponent). At higher levels that AC won't be saving you.
I'm not saying you don't have valid points. A full blown archer cleric would be nice, but I don't see how you are going to get 17 dex and 19 wis and not have crappy con, short of encasing yourself in every magic item you can find in the book. In my exp, rarely does this happen as often as all the PC builders on these boards seem to suggest. YMMV.
Deyv, the cleric doesn't need 19 wis and 17 dex. A 14 dex and 16 wis is good enough to start. A belt of dexterity and racial bonuses provide the rest, plus level boosts. By level 8 a build with 16 wis and 14 dex can have 20 wis and 18 dex, utilizing a few key magic items.
I think once you decide to be an archer cleric, you've already decided not to be an awesome cleric. You've invested too many feats already even if you just choose PBS, precise shot and Rapid shot. And if you don't choose those, you are better off not trying to use a bow.
My druid archer was randomly rolled, but her stats equalled a 16 point buy, and she is doing fine as an archer druid. Her dex is 16, boosted to 18 with a belt and her wisdom is 20, including a racial bonus and level boosts. Her other stats are all 10 with one 11. I've put all her favored class bonuses into hit points and she has a base AC of 21. She is a reasonably proficient archer who can also cast really powerful spells. She has enough hit points that she can take a punch if she has to, and in an emergency she can heal herself.
Between the archery and the spellcasting, she is a very flexible character in combat, and her druid abilities make her a very fun character to role play out of combat.
It can be done on a 15 point buy.
Deyv, the cleric doesn't need 19 wis and 17 dex. A 14 dex and 16 wis is good enough to start. A belt of dexterity and racial bonuses provide the rest, plus level boosts. By level 8 a build with 16 wis and 14 dex can have 20 wis and 18 dex, utilizing a few key magic items.
I think once you decide to be an archer cleric, you've already decided not to be an awesome cleric. You've invested too many feats already even if you just choose PBS, precise shot and Rapid shot. And if you don't choose those, you are better off not trying to use a bow.
My druid archer was randomly rolled, but her stats equalled a 16 point buy, and she is doing fine as an archer druid. Her dex is 16, boosted to 18 with a belt and her wisdom is 20, including a racial bonus and level boosts. Her other stats are all 10 with one 11. I've put all her favored class bonuses into hit points and she has a base AC of 21. She is a reasonably proficient archer who can also cast really powerful spells. She has enough hit points that she can take a punch if she has to, and in an emergency she can heal herself.
Between the archery and the spellcasting, she is a very flexible character in combat, and her druid abilities make her a very fun character to role play out of combat.
It can be done on a 15 point buy.
At last we do agree on something :)
I second what Adamantine Dragon said, manyshot is probably the best feat for an archer.
Some investment in dexterity makes sense if you consider that at least for the first 5-6 levels a PC can't afford a guided weapon. So, if you start with a 14 you can then invest in dexterity boosting items (also help with AC anyway) to get the precious manyshot.
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IMO you'll probably like your character better over a long haul if he's a "cleric with a side of archery" rather than an "archer with a side of cleric". -- IOW, go with your initial instinct to jam wisdom and be an awesome spellcaster.
Most players who recommend just scraping buy on wisdom haven't endured that harrying pain-in-the-ass known as a Spiritual Weapon sicced on 'em by a BAB6+ high-WIS cleric while he's simultaneously bombarding them with high-DC magic.
= = = = =
Elf cleric of Abadar:
STR:08-> 08
DEX+14-> 16
CON-16-> 14
INT+10-> 12
wis:18-> 18
cha:12-> 12
Traits: Eyes and Ears of the City (Religion:Perception:class+1), Warrior of Old (racial:Init+2)
Alignment: lawful-neutral
00 Ba Ft Rf Wi
00 00 02 03 04
01 00 04 03 06 [Abadar|Travel/Protection(Defense)], Improved Initiative
02 01 05 03 07 ...
03 02 05 04 07 Selective Channeling
Init at 1st level: +9
Perc at 1st level: +11
-- Are you an "archer"? Well, you're not Legolas, but you have a crossbow (and spiritual-weapon crossbow) and ranged spells...which is better than being Legolas.
At higher levels, your ability to break through spell-resistance is actually better than a human caster starting with a 20 INT. (It's good to be an elf caster who doesn't screw around.)
Early-mid-level armor: mithral breastplate, buckler
Tactics: Flying artillery with ridiculous AC.
So, what does the archer cleric do with the remaining feats? The archery line has 6 that are essential (Point Blank Shot, Precise Strike, Improved Precise Strike, Deadly Aim, Rapidshot, and Manyshot)...that leaves 4 feats to play with. Soooo...what does an archer cleric do with those feat slots?
I don't agree that either Improved Precise Shot or Deadly Aim are "required" for a cleric archer. For a ranger archer certainly, but clerics are feat-starved vs rangers and eventually will need some feat slots for other non-archery things.
Improved precise shot mostly helps you with cover. Most cases of cover can be turned from a +4 to AC toa +2 to AC with some maneuvering so that more than half of the target is visible. Deadly Aim, as I have attempted to show in other threads, is perhaps the single most overrated feat for archers and as bad as I think it is for a full BAB archer, I would STRONGLY discourage a 3/4 BAB archer from ever even considering taking it.