magrat4's page

Splode: When you put it that way, I describe a scene and she reacts, it sounds so easy! It’s encouraging and you're not wrong. I just know when I first started, I treated D&D like any other game: I assumed I had a specific list of actions I could take and that I had to choose one every turn, e.g., “Attack” or “Defend” or “Attempt a Skill Roll.” It took awhile to realize that my options were limitless---loading a bow but NOT firing it for example, and then of course there’s readied actions or holding your action. I guess the other players (I have three others now, maybe four) will have to lead by example. Thanks for feedback!

Pan: Thanks, we will definitely have a one-on-one character building session, hopefully this weekend or next. If possible I'd like her final character sheet to look ultra simplified, like the pre-gens in the back of the Pathfinder modules.

Bandw2: That pfsrd site with all the interlinking is wonderful, but could be overwhelming for a first time gamer, maybe? I will loan her my Core Book (which I totally read for fun as well) to take home though, thanks.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet: As a librarian I love the idea of a reading list! To yours I would add "The Dresden Files" by Jim Butcher which is clearly influenced by D&D gaming HEAVILY in its descriptions of magic and how it works, combat scenes, etc. Thanks!

MagusJanus: Video game & visuals are interesting ideas, but neither she nor I have any video game access, except maybe some free online PC fantasy game?

CiaranBarnes: With a face like that (orc profile pic) wasn't sure you were kidding, lol.

LazarX: Having ready through the module, you are right that it's too much of a meatgrinder, and I will look at those others you suggested especially 'Dragon's Demand,' thanks. But I really dig the story of COTE, so I'll be adjusting the crypt encounters (subtracting and changing some monsters). I'll let my players I won't be sticking to the module exactly.

LincolnHills: True, I need to ask my sister what interested her in playing to begin with and if she wants a pre-fab. I too think dungeon is the way to go for beginner level fun. She'll be more focused as you said, and she'll have only the party to interact with. I also have one other novice gamer and two pros who have DM'd before in the game so far.

Kolokotroni: For that Harry Potter feel I do think she'd like a caster. I am not confident about juggling new rules for this endeavor even though the wyrd wand has great RP and gameplay potential. She wants a cleric and I'm trying to steer her toward Oracle, a kind of divine sorcerer.

I will reconsider combining the Skills. I liked that aspect of 4th ed, though, and the switch from D&D 3.5 to Pathfinder had some nice combined skills too (especially Listen/Spot into Perception).

PSusac: Thanks, you are so right about 1st level PC in an all-first level party being the only sure footing to start on. Where were you when my D&D career started as a 4th level sorcerer in a power-gamed horror compaign?! Lol, after that disaster I'd never do that to anyone.

Vod Canockers: True, I'd better find out if she has her heart set on a caster and make sure she understands the limitations. She's leaning cleric, but we haven't been able to meet up and talk about her motives and hopes. Thanks!

Okay, I hope I got to everybody's comments. I am so grateful for all the responses and discussion!

Thanks, Sehnder & Kolokotroni!

These are good points, and I shouldn't assume she'll be happiest playing a fighter just because there's less reading.

I will let her know what the class options are and ask her what ideas she has, if any, about what she wants to be able to excel at.

For myself I like starting with a character concept, personality, and backstory and then using the classes, skills, etc. to express that character's strengths.

I should definitely ask what character she imagines when she talks about playing, and I must use the idea of asking her to think of a book or movie character as inspiration. She's such a big fantasy movie buff that it's in her screenname (hplotrgal for Harry Potter/Lord of the Rings gal).

She will have one frame of reference---the card game Munchkin, which she taught me and then bought me. ;)

Also very good point that letting her choose what to do and teaching her as she goes will be more fun and a better teaching method.

As far as other players, I already have two in mind (one is another sister) who have just a few short Pathfinder games under the belt and won't mind the pace or focus on teaching. I will find a fourth among my acquaintances, or just NPC one.

And I couldn't agree more with the importance of not quashing the first-timer's instincts or experimental choices and their fun. I always disliked that in my first group, and these days I try to experiment more.

I will have to investigate this Beginner's Box...but most of the game will be played online as play-by-post.

Another simplifier I have used before and probably will again is to borrow from 4th ed D&D to combine certain skills, e.g., "Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy" become the single skill "Persuasion" and a few physical skills become "Athletics."

Folks,

Something incredible has happened---today the sister who always (not unkindly) teased me about loving d20 RPG (D&D & Pathfinder) with absurd questions like "So, are you a 9th level dragon yet?" has finally asked me to teach her to play!

I've selected a module, "Crypt of the Everflame," and ordered "Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress" from my local library (because that was my introduction to the basics).

Obviously the most important thing is for her to have fun.

I don't want her feeling overwhelmed early on, so I'll be giving her a pre-gen fighter or rogue.

Any other advice or resources on how to best introduce a complete novice to the basics?

Thanks, any input is appreciated!

That Lotus Geisha sounds excellent...sadly none of my DMs has or permits the use of any books except for the three Bestiaries, Core, APG, UltMagic, & UltCombat.

These boards are anonymous, yet I feel compelled to be truthful. I have given up on introducing a bard cohort in that Pathfinder game.

Why not? Eh, I love my DM but last session reminded me why I shouldn't anticipate anyone with less than epic level stats, saves, and AC surviving. He's not malicious, it's just he spontaneously wings it with his choice of monsters and spells, if that makes sense. And, uh, things got a little strained between us and I don't want to make waves or extra demands.

This doesn't mean I won't build the bards...it just means they will be NPC's under a different DM, many levels later.

Thanks for everything!

Teamwork may help...

If you have a cleric in your party, there's a 4th level spell in APG called Blessing of Fervor that allows allies w/in 30 ft a range of options, including free "Still" metamagic feat on a 2nd level or lower spell so you can keep casting. Or ask one of your casters for freedom of movement, 10 minutes per level.

OR, items wise when you can afford it, Core Wondrous Items has a Vest of Escape that provides a +6 competence bonus to escape checks. 5,200 gp (a bit expensive maybe but good investment). Combine that with alchemical grease (only 5 gp each), which for four hours grants +5 alchemical bonus to escape checks or combat maneuver checks and CMD to avoid grapple.

And when it's black tentacles, if one of your casters could learn or prepare Dispel Magic, that's always useful.

Good luck! (And witches are awesome!)

A nice healing item is the Strand of Prayer beads...if multiple characters had one, it's usable every day without getting expended. Also look at salves in wondrous items and alchemical items in APG---Eastern medicine!

For builds/classes, a happy healer is often one that can still participate in the fight/damage significantly AND can take enough punishment to be able to keep helping the teammates when in-combat healing is needed.

I recommend Oracle of Battle for healing AND melee. And it would be easy to give it an Eastern warrior flavor.

Depending on your revelations (and a ring of revelation or Extra Revelation feat is always helpful), you can heal as a swift action 1/day by 7th level, you could gain free heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, could gain new saves against the conditions that usually take you out of combat like blinded and frightened, and could gain free feats like Diehard, Improved Critical, etc. and/OR you could get FREE stoneskin that can't be dispelled. Battle oracle also has a morale-bonus granting ability kind of like Inspire Courage, only shorter.

The ability to roll twice for Intiative and take the better one EVERY TIME alone is terrific! Plus you get Perception and Intimidate as class skills.

Good mysteries for heavy combat could be Cloudy Vision or Lame as the curses eventually provide nice benefits. And Lame wouldn't be so bad with the Revelation Surprising Charge (your move as IMMEDIATE action 1/day) for emergencies.

Nature is nice for the Cha bonus to armor class, and Dark Tapestry has cool damage abilities/spells, which many oracles lack.

Good luck!

There is a Cavalier (Order of the Star) that adds 1/2 your cavalier level to Paladin/Cleric/Oracle of Life Mystery for upping your channeling---nice for melee build cuz' you can boost your saves/AC/attacks instantly with the Order of the Star's other abilities.

I think it'd be neat to combine Cavalier with the Holy Vindicator (APG 263) prestige class, which at 6 levels gets to channel in a 30 ft burst or 30 ft cone or 120 ft line.

You could, with a neutral deity, also take Versatile Channel to use either positive or negative energy when you channel.

Whatever channeling you do, Selective Channel (Exclude up to Cha modifier targets) is a must.

Good luck!

Bard cohort will be Level 15 (assuming I bring it in at Level 17, which my cleric should reach in 3 sessions or so).

But if DM skips us to Level 20 for the endgame (very likely), the bard cohort will start (and end) at Level 18. (With 96,000 gp to spend)

I'm trying to get permission to craft my own magic items or rings or wands just to make them affordable before my bard cohort enters the game. Unless you have connections, arcane stuff can be hard to get---the Churches frown on "witchcraft."

Geisha has neat flavor and I'd love to roleplay it. Heck, a whole Eastern campaign would be great! But the problem is my group virtually never sees the attack coming AND usually spends more than 10 minutes exploring before the combat occurs (usually a surprise attack). So any buff that's not 1 hour/lvl pretty much wears off too quickly for us. =(

That dragon disciple build sounds great and I'll definitely pass it on to my other DM. But I had to really argue to get permission for a bard cohort (DM didn't want to have to adjust all the CRs he already planned), and I get the feeling I shouldn't push my luck asking to change the cohort's class now.

Thanks again to all!

How about a Grateful (Un)Dead Bard/Alice Cooper shock rocker bard?

Dirge Bard (*this is NON-evil) from Ultimate Magic (pg 26) allows you to re-animate enemies that your buddies drop and have them fight for you only as long as you perform---killer groupies! Your mind-affecting spells would work on undead by 5th level to buff them or hurt them. You also gain necromantic spells from other lists---e.g., I'd pick False Life cuz it's 1hr/level extra HP and stays useful through high levels.

I can't find it but I think there's a grave-singer type feat that lets bardic music affect undead...I may be thinking of 3.5.

The drawback is you lose versatile performance (perform checks in place of other skill checks) & well-versed (+4 to saves vs certain effects), but the save bonuses are nice and the flavor could be fun. Also your GM might have to cooperate and send you undead to mess with...

That, or one of our group had a blast playing a drunken master monk. Cleric had to keep casting "Neutralize Poison" on him when he got too hammered, especially in social situations. ;)

Wow, thanks everyone!

I have until we gain a new level (about three-four sessions/weeks) to decide what my bard cohort will look like...

So I'm tempted to try building one of each of these bards, plus the dragon disciple, and playtest it a little! (Anything I can't use, I can pass off to my roommate, a DM who lets me build NPCs sometimes.)

This bard cohort is for a min-maxed Cthulu meets medieval England homebrewed horror campaign. We usually have to hit AC's in the high 30s, almost exclusively fight larger spellcasting opponents like dragons (with save DCs in the high 20s), and get plenty of Dispel Magic/Greater thrown our way. And our enemies dish out damage in the mid-30s on low dice rolls, plus this DM is awfuly good at rolling Criticals.

My group has no love or respect for bards, sadly. My DM's pronouncement was, "It'll die in no time" while my fellow player promised me mad props if I simply keep it alive. I suppose I am just a glutton for punishment. ;) And a diehard fan of bards...

Sangalor, thanks for the reminder that regular bards can rock and hold their own, too.

Whatever I decide to build, I'll try to remember to post an update on how the bard's doing.

Thanks for putting thought and time into addressing my poor bard.

Cestus sounds good! And I'd love it if my DM would give me agathion or Azata cohort but I'm certain he won't, based on the mythos of his homebrew world.

I have realized, however, that the biggest problem facing my cohort is that the stats of the party are beyond epic. Just for instance, my Merciful Healer 16 has these stats...

Str 14 (+2)
Dex 17 (+3) w/ +2 belt physical might 19 (+4)
Con 15 (+2) w/ +2 belt physical might (see above) 17 (+3)
Int 10 (+0) (I hate doing dump stats, but with no saves based on it...)
Wis 24 (+6) w/ +4 brooch & +2 inherent bonus = Wis 30 (+9)
Cha 16 (+3) w/ +2 ring & +2 inherent bonus = Cha 20 (+5)

A cohort starts with 8, 10, 13, 14, 15. Then gain +1 every four levels, and factor in racial adjustments. And I should only get 45,000 gp to spend on building it.

Sadly most of my money and planning must then go to stats and stat-boosting items. Especially since our sorcerer, who stays out of melee, still needs 22 Con just to survive, which means I need to try to match that even for a ranged spellcaster.

So I've decided to go DRAGON DISCIPLE (APG 381-382) because it gets Natural Armor bonuses, +2 Str, +2 Con, & +2 Int.

I'm wondering what bloodline energy type and damage type is best...fire, cold, or electricity? 60 foot line or 30 foot cone?

Still deciding which race: Gnome for -2 Str but bonuses to Cha and Con, and gnome fire magic from pyromania? Or lucky halfling? Or Human for the usual perks? Or elf for help beating SR? Or half-elf for alternate race feature potential bonus "feats" (Skill Focus, Weapon Prof, +2 Will saves)...

And I'll need five or six levels of one of the Bard archetypes...maybe Daredevil, Magician, or Archaeologist...

Dwarves are a great race in general for the racial benefits---but IF your cleric channels positive energy, that -2 Cha from Dwarves will hurt. (Unless you make up for it with Feat Extra Channel, +2 uses per day.)

Are you the only or primary party healer AND using channeling? The better your channeling is, the more likely you can reserve your spellcasting for buffs and attacks. Also if you will primarily be healing in combat (which is common), you're better off with Feat Selective Channel (exclude enemy targets from receiving your healing, up to one target per Cha modifier).

What domains are you looking at?

For feats, Archery progression demands Point-Blank Shot (a popular prerequisite and nice plus to hit) and Precise Shot (get rid of -4 in melee) as soon as possible. Build up to Rapid Shot (extra shooting), etc.

Human is nice for cleric because they are feat-starved and skill-point starved, I think. Check Advanced Player's Guide for alternate racial features to customize the character to what you want---e.g., Half-Orc makes a nice tough cleric with orc ferocity, one who can heal himself back up after he'd normally be unconscious.

Good for you, building a cleric that can do some weapon damage and fill a combat role other than buffing/healing! I'd like to see more of that in my group.

Good luck!

Improved Familiar (7th level caster) Pseudodragon (Pathfinder Bestiary 229, or 3.5 Dungeon Mastery Guide I think) is nice.

Good AC, speed, & maneuverability for delivering touch spells, plus some spell abilities of its own & a poison sting & a bite that could be buffed (or coated with better poison) over time. And it has telepathy and Spell Resistance and immunity to paralysis or sleep, for what it's worth.

Avoiding multiclassing and level dipping is better for overcoming Spell Resistance and other caster level checks, and for being able to cast the best buff spells on yourself and familiar. But how important caster level is depends on the DM's encounter style and choice of foes.

Good luck!

I was playing with the idea of making a pure caster such as a wizard/sorcerer with levels of Eldritch Knight and Arcane Archer, or Abjurant Champion mostly because I wanted to try to make a combat familiar out of it. Since half the health of a d10 class would not be all that horrible at all, especially if I gave myself a high Con bonus.

The other root I would have done was to go Eldritch Heritage to gain a familiar as a barbarian, or some other full base attack class. Maybe just even going one level of wizard and enjoy using wands without a UMD check :p .

If I went with the human trait to gain "Eye for Talent", I could put it in intelligence for the creature, and boost it a few stats in int to allow it to get combat expertise and agile maneuvers, and have it proceed to ether do dirty tricks on enemies, but I find the problem is size to be a bit problematic.

In fact, aside from just going Improved Familiar, and getting a pet elemental, the problem of size puts a damper in a lot of potential ideas. Any suggestions?

First, a big thanks and shout out to everyone who's ever posted about clerics/oracles and bards---reading these boards has been a great help!

Second, for story reasons I want to bring in a Bard cohort (Level 15) for my Merciful Healer Cleric (who will soon reach Level 17) in a table top Pathfinder game.

My DM's combat encounter style is, in his own words, "ball-breakingly hard," fighting High CR's w/ High AC and High Spell Resistance. We fight mostly Demons, Devils, & Aberrations, AND Will saves are crucial.

Which of the archetypes in Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, & Ultimate Combat might prove best at surviving AND being effective?

I am leaning toward Arcane Duelist (heavy armor proficiency w/o spell failure and some helpful bonus feats), or Archaeologist because they get Evasion/Improved Evasion & Rogue Talents/Advanced Talents.

I don't really care if this bard is primarily controller or melee so long as it can survive for three levels/till the end of the campaign. Again, this is for story reasons and so that while I spend turns healing/buffing/removing conditions, my cohort can do something more exciting.

How do I prioritize stats and feats? (Perhaps Dexterity/Weapon Finesse to boost the armor class and plus to hit at same time?)

Should I focus on Saves or Armor or HP when choosing items, feats, & spells?

Any advice is appreciated---thanks!