So... I've had a discussion with a friend over the pros and cons of playing a rogue in Pathfinder. He said that everything a rogue does can be done on the same level (if not better) by any other class.
A door to pick? You could send the meat shield to open that up! Or a spellcaster to do something about it.
A trap? Well, there are many ways to go around that, but if you REALLY want to use disable device, why don't you pick a bard instead?
The conversation went on and on like that. My friends point was: the rogue got nerfed on some points and other classes got nice perks, thus, Rogues are not necessary.
I, being a fan of the class, got very disheartened by that. So I'm here to ask the experts and more experienced players:
Are rogues really done?
What could I do to make my rogue badass and have a shining role in the party?
WHAT IS the purpose of having a rogue if other classes could have ways around those "rogue's specialties"?
He's right. But they're still fun to play. Combat rogues work well with a good flanking partner.
Actually, he is not right. Many archetypes got parts of what rogues can do, like trapfinding and disabling magical traps or sneak attack, but no one got it all as far as i know.
Rogues are still a viable and fun to play choice.
There are so many new feats and possibilities, just use them right and play tactically.
More important, unlike barbarians or paladins, rogues offer countless unique options for roleplay.
Actually, he is not right. Many archetypes got parts of what rogues can do, like trapfinding and disabling magical traps or sneak attack, but no one got it all as far as i know.
Rogues are still a viable and fun to play choice.
There are so many new feats and possibilities, just use them right and play tactically.More important, unlike barbarians or paladins, rogues offer countless unique options for roleplay.
I really agree with the roleplaying part. That's one of the things that got me hooked on rogues.
But can you point out some of these nice feats or combos you mentioned?
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I think Wraithstrike highlighted one of the intrinsic problems of the class in a recent thread. There's even a debate on something as fundamental as whether RAW supports sneak attacking from Stealth. I personally allow it in my games and take into account factors such as which way an opponent is facing, for instance. In these circumstances I find the rogue works fine and is easily one of the most effective and adaptable classes in my games. I just don't think the rules as written serve the class very well.
Take a look at a Ninja.
I play a Rogue as my main character, but wish I'd have taken Ninja.
also its important to go through with your gm to see exactly how sneak attack will be working with the campaign.
You mean, because of that whole "splash weapons cannot be used in a quick draw/sneak attack" thing?
I think Wraithstrike highlighted one of the intrinsic problems of the class in a recent thread. There's even a debate on something as fundamental as whether RAW supports sneak attacking from Stealth. I personally allow it in my games and take into account factors such as which way an opponent is facing, for instance. In these circumstances I find the rogue works fine and is easily one of the most effective and adaptable classes in my games. I just don't think the rules as written serve a class very well.
Yeah, I have 2 DMs (besides me, but my PCs stay away from rogues) in my group and even though one of them is very flexible, the other is a major Rule Lawyer and as such, when he's DMing, he would follow the RAW and as a player he would nag the flexible DM to do the same.
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In the mentioned thread it was clearly pointed out that by RAW you get one SA from stealth. And by the way this discussion really sucks. Rules lawyering can be overdone too and you can take the fun out of everything you do in your life with such stuff.
Well if one wants to do such things, go and check it with them before.
Nothing more annoying when in the middle of play your GM tells you that all the stuff you built your character on is not allowed in the petty realms of fantasy dominated by him.
Im working on a guide, but it will take some time to finish.
Some feats i can mention here right now are the moonlight stalker chain; spring attack; improved/greater feinting; hellcat stealth; hide in plain sight; sap adept & master with bludgeoner and shattering defenses + enforcer; sniping with halflings, weapon finesse and a halfling slingstick; ninja shuriken burst builds; even controlling with a whip, whip mastery feats and trip feats can be nice.
Combine and use any of them to your pleasure.
Oh and a underhanded knifemaster with TWF can be a very nasty thing.
Combine with moonlight stalker and hellcat stelath or hide in plain sight or feinting and you will have reliable damage output. Offensive defense rogue talent makes for survivability, together with the miss chance from concealment.
Shadowstrike to negate concealment on others, darkvision or for ranged seeking enhancement are important stuff for characters dealing SA too.
Im working on a guide, but it will take some time to finish.
Awesome, I can't wait to read it. Will you post it on the d20pfsrd.com?
And thanks for the tips with the feats.
To me 'Shadow Strike' feels like a 'patch' for what should have been built into Sneak Attack in the first place. Sigh, go feat tax.
To me 'Shadow Strike' feels like a 'patch' for what should have been built into Sneak Attack in the first place. Sigh, go feat tax.
Shadowstrike sounded more like SA version of blind fight and elven accuracy (unless I'm reading the description in the wrong way). I can understand a SA being made from the stealthy shadows of a concealment, but to SA another concealed person would not fit into that.... right?
Shadwostrike is really strong in some cases.
Especially where foes have a miss chance not due to concealment from lighting conditions or cover, but something like blur or spell like abilities or other magic means. You deny them all hehe.
If you can have darkvision and your GM is not often going to bring something like that, you probably don´t really need it though.
Yes i will probably publish my guide here, why not.
But it really takes time since im writing on personally more important things with deadly deadlines.
Ah by the way, blind fight and shadowstrike are not wuite the same. Blindfight counters miss chance, shadowstrike allows you to deal SA.
So, to hit everything, greater blind fight and shadowstrike would be necessary. Then you can even SA invisible foes.
Take a look at a Ninja.
I play a Rogue as my main character, but wish I'd have taken Ninja.
Personally it looks like Ninjas are replacing rogues. The only thing they loose that id like to keep is the evasion. They can get it, just much later.
To me 'Shadow Strike' feels like a 'patch' for what should have been built into Sneak Attack in the first place. Sigh, go feat tax.Shadowstrike sounded more like SA version of blind fight and elven accuracy (unless I'm reading the description in the wrong way). I can understand a SA being made from the stealthy shadows of a concealment, but to SA another concealed person would not fit into that.... right?
It just means that without the feat (or Darkvision) you can't Sneak Attack someone in a darkened alley - which seems a most appropriate place to do it. I thought that was just a little bit harsh, myself :D
Haha yeah, rogue stabbing in a dark alley is canon in Rogue History, but I can understand why they would take that away...
Hayato Ken, thanks for the insight :D
Personally it looks like Ninjas are replacing rogues. The only thing they loose that id like to keep is the evasion. They can get it, just much later.Take a look at a Ninja.
I play a Rogue as my main character, but wish I'd have taken Ninja.
Ninjas have great stuff. Sadly my DM said "this is a Europe-ish place, so no monks, no ninjas, no samurais". It makes sense, sure, but its a pity.
Evasion is really one of my favorite things in Rogue characters. :)
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The key to making the rogue good is to open ultimate combat, turn to the ninja. Cover Up all instances of the word ninja with the word rogue. Remove poison use and put in trap finding. Change the word ki to the word panache(sp?). And there you have it friends, a worthwhile rogue again.
There are plenty other classes that are much easier to play who roll a lot of dice too.
Barbarian or two-hand weapon fighters i.e..
new players without tactics or concept end up being frustrated easily because they think they can play a rogue like those brutes.
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Here's some front-end pointers on the rogue:
If you go into character-building thinking "I want to be good at X," then your friend is likely to be right: someone else can do it just as well and have other perks besides.
However, if you go into it already wanting to play the rogue class (either to match your concept or because you just want to), then you CAN make it viable. It'll take some work, but it can be done.
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I didn't like the way Shadow Strike worked, since it applied to all concealment and still put the rogue at a disadvantage in said dark alley because of the miss chance.
For my home games I created a different Feat.
Shadow Stalker
You're skilled at fighting in shadows and dim light.Pre: Stealth 1 rank
Benefit: Your opponents do not gain Concealment from you for being in dim light.
Special: A rogue may choose this feat in place of a Rogue Talent.
I may increase the pre-reqs, as it's dirt cheap right now. But on the other hand, I wanted to make sure Rogues could get it fairly early on in their career.
You could change the prereqs to "Stealth 5 ranks or rogue level 2nd".
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Your friend is correct. Many classes outdamage the rogue. Any wis-based class with perception as a class skill can find traps as well or better. Detect Magic at wll means magical trap finding is even easier. Rogue gets +1/2 level to disable device, but that's really not such an impossible lead for another class to use the skill just fine, too.
Ranged sneak attack was utterly savaged, with almost every trick and technique of it -- SA from Blinking, SA from foe balancing such as on grease (you can ready an action for one SA, but can no longer full attack SA), SA with splash weapons -- all gone. Furthermore, tumble got severely nerfed to the point where you WILL fail at least half the time, and the numbers are such that it actually gets harder at higher levels (assuming you keep it maxed) because monster CMD climbs stupidly fast. You can keep it at around or a little above 50% success by using Skill Focus as a feat patch, but that still means you're taking an extra attack every other round you try and do your skirmish / tumble into flanking thing, with your squishy hp and fort save. Not viable.
And yes, being able to SA in concealment should have been in rogue to begin with, not a feat tax. It's ludicrous that a human rogue can't SA in a dark ally or that a level 1 spell (Obscuring Mist) shuts down the class.
The issue with them is that they require a ton of feats to be somewhat effective.
Or they require exploits that work only because some silly designers used flat-footed when they meant denied their dexterity bonus.
Must admit the one rogue archtype I am dying to try is the knife master.
SA with d8s...
I agree on that Cheapy, there could be a lot more stuff having the wording "denied DEX" instead of flat-footed. Its unlikely even with some seemingly overpowered feats that you take out someone in the surprise round.
I also agree with StreamOfTheSky with some points.
There are ways to solve such things, but they only kick in much much later, since magic items are often real expensive (goggles of darkvision or fogcutting).
But then, you can use a lot of this to your advantage.
A wand of obscuring mist is a nice thing if you have the right feats.
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I've seen people on these boards advocate methods of bypassing traps such as using summoned monsters to trigger them off, like this is some kind of automatic slam dunk. Might work in some cases, but what about traps with automatic resets, or big area effects, or those that summon big otherworldly gribblies up? The 'summon monster' trick would have been absolutely disastrous against a recent portcullis/flooding corridor trap I used. What the party needed was someone with the best possible chance of disarming it - and luckily they had one at hand. I do think a lot of the tropes on these boards can be over-stated.
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Are there rogue talents that allow a rogue to do something, well, rogue-exclusive.
Fast Stealth
Ledge WalkerRogue Crawl
Trap Spotter
Assault Leader
Expert Leaper
Follow Clues
Peerless Maneuver
Swift Poison
Deft Palm
Strong Stroke
Wall Scramble
I'm not 100% sure that each of these are "rogue-exclusive" (and I also might have missed some), but yes, there are rogue-exclusive abilities out there.
EDIT: Oh, forgot Stand Up: the only way to stand as a free action, that I'm aware of.
On skill ranks, while it's true that other classes can do any one thing as well, the rogue gets the most. One of their biggest strengths is the sheer number of skill ranks and class skills that other classes simply don't get. Yes any other class can climb that wall, pick that lock, bluff that guard, stealth through that ally, and use that magic device, (among other things) but can any one class do ALL of the things a rogue can on the same character? I'm willing to bet they can't do it as well as a rogue.
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It's true a fighter or wizard to get past various obstacles that a rogue can too but the fighter should always be wary of the unknown and the wizard blows spells he could have spent elsewhere (and more wisely). The rogue isn't as vulnerable to all those trapped panels and doors like the fighter and he also doesn't generally have to blow any precious resources to bypass these pitfalls or there locks. Plus the rogue gets bonus style points for leaving the trap he just bypassed armed and ready for the next sucker that falls for it.
On skill ranks, while it's true that other classes can do any one thing as well, the rogue gets the most. One of their biggest strengths is the sheer number of skill ranks and class skills that other classes simply don't get. Yes any other class can climb that wall, pick that lock, bluff that guard, stealth through that ally, and use that magic device, (among other things) but can any one class do ALL of the things a rogue can on the same character? I'm willing to bet they can't do it as well as a rogue.
Improvements made to the bard make this untrue. Versatile Performance allows the bard to essentially get more skill ranks then the rogue while unifying the stat that is required for those skills. By 10th level 3 performance skills (lets say oratory, act and dance) are doing triple duty as their bonus also applies to diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, disguise, acrobatics, and fly. And they are all based on the bards charisma modifier. And the bard still has 3+int skills to apply elsewhere as needed to fill out his resume.
The bard has taken his intended place as the best jack of all trades in PFRPG, and is certainly the best skill monkey.
Murr... Bards... I forgot about bards...
Okay, yeah that's a pretty major flaw in one of the rogue's greatest strengths then.
The issue with them is that they require a ton of feats to be somewhat effective.
Or they require exploits that work only because some silly designers used flat-footed when they meant denied their dexterity bonus.
I agree on that Cheapy, there could be a lot more stuff having the wording "denied DEX" instead of flat-footed. Its unlikely even with some seemingly overpowered feats that you take out someone in the surprise round.
My "someone is disparaging the Scout Archetype and shatter defenses" sense is tingling.
So Hayato Ken, you're going to say that these options (i.e. sap adept, sap master, bludgeoner, shatter defenses and the scout archetype) are overpowered in your guide? Thats something that I thought no one would say about the rogue, being overpowered that is.
I would have thought these the more decently-powered options, with the others being under-powered when compared to other classes.
prototype00
Why is the bard a major flaw of the rogue?
Nonsense.
While a bard can do similar things, its still different.
Very different.
Versatile performance only kicks in later and is limited to certain skills. When you optimize it you can´t use that skills untill then.
So what are you doing in the meantime?
Also, disable device, stealth and acrobatics are not CHA based.
A bard can be very good in social situations no doubt.
But a bard is still not a rogue and there are plenty of reasons to lpay a rogue.
Why some people always suggest someone play another class if a person asks for help and ideas playing a certain class. (especially when someone wants to play a rogue)
I will start an experiment on this. Lets see the outcome.
The issue with them is that they require a ton of feats to be somewhat effective.
Or they require exploits that work only because some silly designers used flat-footed when they meant denied their dexterity bonus.
I agree on that Cheapy, there could be a lot more stuff having the wording "denied DEX" instead of flat-footed. Its unlikely even with some seemingly overpowered feats that you take out someone in the surprise round.My "someone is disparaging the Scout Archetype and shatter defenses" sense is tingling.
So Hayato Ken, you're going to say that these options (i.e. sap adept, sap master, bludgeoner, shatter defenses and the scout archetype) are overpowered in your guide? Thats something that I thought no one would say about the rogue, being overpowered that is.
I would have thought these the more decently-powered options, with the others being under-powered when compared to other classes.
prototype00
Nope i don´t say that. Also my guide cannot work miracles. It won´t be about optimizing only, but more about cool options that are also cool to play.
Some people cried a lot about some things, my own GM among them.
I made some examples for him about barbarians and damage, he also saw our inquisitor do several times about 45 points of damage with one hit and now has to deal with a critting paladin.
You can have reliable SA in several ways and still be difficult to hit.
You can also do a lot of damage with rogues. I´m not into DPS and i don´t really care, but i know that many are surprised about some simple facts.
One thing that kept the rogue highly effective in my PF-converted Curse of the Crimson Throne game was that I allowed all the rogue's sneak attack-boosting Rogue Talents to apply to the same sneak attack, never realizing the rules said otherwise. When any sneak attack the rogue lands deals Bleed damage, Strength damage, and a minimum of 3 damage per sneak attack die, it does a lot to shore up his combat effectiveness. (I was also ignorant that Deadly Sneak imposed a penalty on attack rolls.)
Why is the bard a major flaw of the rogue?
I probably picked the wrong words with "major flaw". I basically meant I thought that particular aspect was something rogues were best at, and I forgot what bards were capable of in the same situation.
Why some people always suggest someone play another class if a person asks for help and ideas playing a certain class. (especially when someone wants to play a rogue)
I wonder about that too... Something about human brains I think. I don't really get it.
I'm of the opinion that you could just mash the rogue and ninja together into a single class that got everything that either of them got (maybe punt poison use, light steps and/or trap sense to talents or something, just so the class doesn't feel too "busy", but you could keep them if you want), and the class would still be easily within the game's acceptable power band. (And probably not even in the top half.)
I don't think that rogues are unplayably bad, but they're the least effective combat class, and they're matched or outflanked for utility by many other classes as well.
You can have reliable SA in several ways and still be difficult to hit.
You can also do a lot of damage with rogues. I´m not into DPS and i don´t really care, but i know that many are surprised about some simple facts.
I don't really care about the DPS really, initially it was never the rogue place to be the guy with higher damage in the party (altho' you'll have rogues dealing monster damage on D&D4ed), but it's very easy for a group to get competitive on who minmaxed their character better.
I had experienced a situation where the most experienced (in Pathfinder at least) guy just came into our group and in his very first session as a PC he tried to show everyone how badass his druid was by killing the boss alone (he chooses to kill the boss and not help the rest of the group, he even got as far as to block another player's attack just so the boss wouldn't die on that round).
So imagine if I would enter a game with someone as competitive (and immature) as that. I wouldn't want to be THE GREATEST BADASS ROGUE EVER who's better than a Druid, but I would like to feel like I can carry my own weight in the party and not be the butt-monkey or the guy in the back who shows up to open a door or check for traps only.
AND it would be nice if I had fun while doing it. I guess Hayato's future guide for awesome rogues will do the trick... Meanwhile, any other ideas are very welcomed :)
Yeah the rogue is "viable" in the sense that it can contribute to a party. That's not what people argue about though. People argue that the rogue is one of the weakest classes in the game and can be outshined in their own professions by a lot of classes. Also hayato Ken I would like to mention that bards have access to invisibility and that they can get acrobatics based on cha and can gain access to trapping finding and be better at it.
Yeah the rogue is "viable" in the sense that it can contribute to a party. That's not what people argue about though. People argue that the rogue is one of the weakest classes in the game and can be outshined in their own professions by a lot of classes. Also hayato Ken I would like to mention that bards have access to invisibility and that they can get acrobatics based on cha and can gain access to trapping finding and be better at it.
Haha and then you just gave yet another example of how to outshine a Rogue in their own game!
That's kinda sad...
I know very well how bards function, its my second favorite class directly after rogue. Ok yu can have acrobatics based of CHA and be good at trapfinding. But the trapfinding thing is an archetype.
Perhaps i should hand in new rogue archetypes:
-the rogue smiter. Having smite all non-chaotic - stacking with sneak attack, CHA to all saves, heal through boasting, may never become non-chaotic, chaotic form - always granting concealment and because others don´t know how to react to your chaotic, senseless movement, they are always flat-footed to you.
requ: 1 level rogue, no other classes except 2 levels monk or fighter, chaotic alignment.
More to follow^^
Seriously, i dont know why Paizo made those bard archetypes.
Without being offensive, i guess there are some people having very different points of view and favorite/hated stuff in the game working on it. Also there seems to be a lack of communication or too much GM fiat while working sometimes.
The archetypes are actively turning bards into rogues. Kind of stupid.
Because only they aren´t rogues.
Or look at the archeologist, Indie Jones came to life in Golarion, awesome. Why choose the bard for this? Of course the only class having whip proficiency already.
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Once again a thread based on many assumptions, but something that only happens in games where it is not effectively/realistically countered by the GM.
1)Having a summoned monster knock down every door might alert the entire dungeon to your presence.
2) Having the fighter/barbarian smash the door might expose him to large amounts of damage right before the fight.
3) Ok you detect magic, now tell me how you disarm the trap? Oh so you got dispel magic memmed like hot cakes - what are you sacrificing?
4) Wand of knock doesn't disarm the trap. What if the trap is set to spring when you enter, not when you open the door?.
5) The bard took a bunch of thief skills, so how can he move silently while performing -let me guess he inspires with his Dance (old boy got the moves like Jagger).
Play the game at a table with a good GM and you will see a lot of these "theories on gaming" really aren't viable. I still think the rogue has his place.
Start with the classic 4. Toss the Rogue out on his ear and hire a Trapper Ranger. Trade the Cleric for an Oracle or the Fighter for a Cavalier or Barbarian. Now you're even on skill points and ahead on combat power.
Alternately trade the Rogue for an Archaeologist Bard. Juggle some of the skill load so the Bard covers knowledges instead of the Wizard to take advantage of Bardic Knowledge, which nets an average of 5 skill points/level in bonuses. The increase in spellcasting offsets the lack of sneak attack and you're way ahead on skill points. And you actually disable traps better than a rogue.
If you have to do all that to replace him , then like I said "the rogue still has his place". NO CLASS is absolutely necessary, my point was that a rogue is not as worthless as the people in this thread were making him out to be.