Crimson Sirius's page

Yeah the rogue is "viable" in the sense that it can contribute to a party. That's not what people argue about though. People argue that the rogue is one of the weakest classes in the game and can be outshined in their own professions by a lot of classes. Also hayato Ken I would like to mention that bards have access to invisibility and that they can get acrobatics based on cha and can gain access to trapping finding and be better at it.

Haha and then you just gave yet another example of how to outshine a Rogue in their own game!

That's kinda sad...

You can have reliable SA in several ways and still be difficult to hit.

You can also do a lot of damage with rogues. I´m not into DPS and i don´t really care, but i know that many are surprised about some simple facts.

I don't really care about the DPS really, initially it was never the rogue place to be the guy with higher damage in the party (altho' you'll have rogues dealing monster damage on D&D4ed), but it's very easy for a group to get competitive on who minmaxed their character better.

I had experienced a situation where the most experienced (in Pathfinder at least) guy just came into our group and in his very first session as a PC he tried to show everyone how badass his druid was by killing the boss alone (he chooses to kill the boss and not help the rest of the group, he even got as far as to block another player's attack just so the boss wouldn't die on that round).

So imagine if I would enter a game with someone as competitive (and immature) as that. I wouldn't want to be THE GREATEST BADASS ROGUE EVER who's better than a Druid, but I would like to feel like I can carry my own weight in the party and not be the butt-monkey or the guy in the back who shows up to open a door or check for traps only.

AND it would be nice if I had fun while doing it. I guess Hayato's future guide for awesome rogues will do the trick... Meanwhile, any other ideas are very welcomed :)

Iced2k wrote:

Take a look at a Ninja.

I play a Rogue as my main character, but wish I'd have taken Ninja.

Personally it looks like Ninjas are replacing rogues. The only thing they loose that id like to keep is the evasion. They can get it, just much later.

Ninjas have great stuff. Sadly my DM said "this is a Europe-ish place, so no monks, no ninjas, no samurais". It makes sense, sure, but its a pity.

Evasion is really one of my favorite things in Rogue characters. :)

Haha yeah, rogue stabbing in a dark alley is canon in Rogue History, but I can understand why they would take that away...

Hayato Ken, thanks for the insight :D

To me 'Shadow Strike' feels like a 'patch' for what should have been built into Sneak Attack in the first place. Sigh, go feat tax.

Shadowstrike sounded more like SA version of blind fight and elven accuracy (unless I'm reading the description in the wrong way). I can understand a SA being made from the stealthy shadows of a concealment, but to SA another concealed person would not fit into that.... right?

Im working on a guide, but it will take some time to finish.

Awesome, I can't wait to read it. Will you post it on the d20pfsrd.com?

And thanks for the tips with the feats.

I think Wraithstrike highlighted one of the intrinsic problems of the class in a recent thread. There's even a debate on something as fundamental as whether RAW supports sneak attacking from Stealth. I personally allow it in my games and take into account factors such as which way an opponent is facing, for instance. In these circumstances I find the rogue works fine and is easily one of the most effective and adaptable classes in my games. I just don't think the rules as written serve a class very well.

Yeah, I have 2 DMs (besides me, but my PCs stay away from rogues) in my group and even though one of them is very flexible, the other is a major Rule Lawyer and as such, when he's DMing, he would follow the RAW and as a player he would nag the flexible DM to do the same.

also its important to go through with your gm to see exactly how sneak attack will be working with the campaign.

You mean, because of that whole "splash weapons cannot be used in a quick draw/sneak attack" thing?

Actually, he is not right. Many archetypes got parts of what rogues can do, like trapfinding and disabling magical traps or sneak attack, but no one got it all as far as i know.

Rogues are still a viable and fun to play choice.
There are so many new feats and possibilities, just use them right and play tactically.

More important, unlike barbarians or paladins, rogues offer countless unique options for roleplay.

I really agree with the roleplaying part. That's one of the things that got me hooked on rogues.

But can you point out some of these nice feats or combos you mentioned?

So... I've had a discussion with a friend over the pros and cons of playing a rogue in Pathfinder. He said that everything a rogue does can be done on the same level (if not better) by any other class.

A door to pick? You could send the meat shield to open that up! Or a spellcaster to do something about it.

A trap? Well, there are many ways to go around that, but if you REALLY want to use disable device, why don't you pick a bard instead?

The conversation went on and on like that. My friends point was: the rogue got nerfed on some points and other classes got nice perks, thus, Rogues are not necessary.

I, being a fan of the class, got very disheartened by that. So I'm here to ask the experts and more experienced players:

Are rogues really done?

What could I do to make my rogue badass and have a shining role in the party?

WHAT IS the purpose of having a rogue if other classes could have ways around those "rogue's specialties"?