Is anyone actually agreeing with malachi here? I couldn't see anyone else..
As for the ability: just chiming in to lend one more voice to the weight. The FAQ makes it clear you don't look ahead for class features. One cannot pull text from a later level ability and apply it earlier. I can't even really see how this can be in doubt..
No, I dont think anyone is. Really for me ultimately what maters is what is in the Weapon Training Class feature of the Weapon master of a Sohei 1/Weapon master 3. He doesnt have the language needed for flurry with his greatsword and will not get it until he is sohei 6.
I really dont see how the "At level 6" can be just ignored.
|
Is anyone actually agreeing with malachi here? I couldn't see anyone else..
As for the ability: just chiming in to lend one more voice to the weight. The FAQ makes it clear you don't look ahead for class features. One cannot pull text from a later level ability and apply it earlier. I can't even really see how this can be in doubt..
Not on the boards it seems. Though I'm sure that there are people who do, just don't frequent/post here that do agree with him.
The basic structure of how topic sentences work would imply that "weapon training: at 6th level..." includes everything in the paragraph. Its a singular package.
Really the issue for me is the assumption that weapon master weapon training allows anything other than what it says it allows. This seems absurd and if allowed as a normal game paradigm basically breaks the game.
|
The basic structure of how topic sentences work would imply that "weapon training: at 6th level..." includes everything in the paragraph. Its a singular package.
Really the issue for me is the assumption that weapon master weapon training allows anything other than what it says it allows. This seems absurd and if allowed as a normal game paradigm basically breaks the game.
About 'breaking the game'...
If I'm right, then it's not that your weapon gets the attack and damage bonus that is different, it's that you can flurry with it.
Flurry here gives one extra attack, with all attacks being at -2. This is at 4th level for my Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3, as opposed to 6th level for the single class Sohei.
And yet first level characters can do this! Nearly any monk 1 can flurry, and anyone else with the TWF feat can also do it at first!
This doesn't 'break the game' in any way!
The basic structure of how topic sentences work would imply that "weapon training: at 6th level..." includes everything in the paragraph. Its a singular package.
Really the issue for me is the assumption that weapon master weapon training allows anything other than what it says it allows. This seems absurd and if allowed as a normal game paradigm basically breaks the game.
About 'breaking the game'...
If I'm right, then it's not that your weapon gets the attack and damage bonus that is different, it's that you can flurry with it.
Flurry here gives one extra attack, with all attacks being at -2. This is at 4th level for my Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3, as opposed to 6th level for the single class Sohei.
And yet first level characters can do this! Nearly any monk 1 can flurry, and anyone else with the TWF feat can also do it at first!
This doesn't 'break the game' in any way!
Because, the logic your using basically lets you grab any ability any other class has if you have a similar version of it. Even when its given to that class as a much higher level.
Person above linked it, what i was refering to was the very first sentence.
Quick question, would a ninja 2/monk 1 be able to ki strike or use ki points to gain an extra attack on flurry of blows or move farther or etc etc?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
when i first looked at this, i didn't post because i thought it was a simple question that was already answered, and when i kept seeing it come up and eventually beat 200 posts. i was like "ok, who blew things out of proportion?" the answer is Malachi apparently.
The 2nd part of your question doesn't demonstrate what you want. Flurry is a full-attack action and Ninja's Ki Pool allows them to make an extra attack during a full-attack.Person above linked it, what i was refering to was the very first sentence.
Quick question, would a ninja 2/monk 1 be able to ki strike or use ki points to gain an extra attack on flurry of blows or move farther or etc etc?
No i wasnt using that to prove a point, i was actually curious because it is very similiar in that both classes share an ability that is named the same thing but does something different according to both classes. I am very curious where this is allowed because monk doesnt get ki pool until level 4, so if ninja 2/monk 1 is allowed to ki strike and whatnot that a level 4 monk is suppose to get, then i have no reason not to say Malakai is right in this.
can u show me where it is confirmed that a ninja 2/monk 1 is allowed to ki strike or use ki points to gain a +4 to dodge AC?
I understood what u brought up with the extra attack, i have no reason why i still i included it in the sentence when i meant to say the dodge ac thing lol.
|
Can a Monk 1/Ninja 2 spend a ki point to give himself a +4 dodge bonus for 1 round?
No.
This ability is not gained til 4th level of Monk which you do not have. This is exactly the same argument that is being consistently ignored and resulted in this entire thread in the first place. Do you have a class feature before you get the class feature, No by FAQ.
Simply put if an ability stacks, like for example Uncanny Dodge, it has to say so in its description otherwise it doesn't. For example if you get evasion from two classes you don't get improved evasion.
Ow i agree, was just the only corner case i could find that fit the same scenario and wondered how they thought about that. Im gonna stop now and just wait for a faq. I know i wouldnt allow it, but i have been surprised by faqs before.
|
Ow i agree, was just the only corner case i could find that fit the same scenario and wondered how they thought about that. Im gonna stop now and just wait for a faq. I know i wouldnt allow it, but i have been surprised by faqs before.
no need to wait! We already have the FAQ. It's been linked in this thread and posted above.
The Monk in your example can use his/her Ki pool to do whatever it says he/she can do in the Ninja class ability description.
According to Malcheate, yes.
Dude, don't be like that. Name calling gets us nowhere, and will make it more likely that Mal will look through even more of his dictionaries and thesaurues to find more words to say why you're wrong, he's right, and we're just picking on him.
Like 'fallacy'. I don't remember the last time I heard someone said it, but it was years ago and in a movie that took place in the...13th century? Sometime around then.
|
|
According to Malcheate, yes.Dude, don't be like that. Name calling gets us nowhere, and will make it more likely that Mal will look through even more of his dictionaries and thesaurues to find more words to say why you're wrong, he's right, and we're just picking on him.
Like 'fallacy'. I don't remember the last time I heard someone said it, but it was years ago and in a movie that took place in the...13th century? Sometime around then.
I see the word fallacy thrown around the boards all the time, usually in threads that get heated or have 10+ pages. Often it is accompanied with "Stormwind".
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
His whole thread here is pure fallacy.
I'm not entirely certain he believes what he is saying, because he can't articulate how if what he says is true then why can't a 1st level Alchemist apply poisons at immediate speed, ninja 2/monk 1 get Ki for +4 Dodge AC, and assorted other deals where we allegedly get to snip out a partial paragraph of some future ability (like say at 20th level) and get to use it at 1st because of imagined rules based on a fallacy.
|
|
First, you have people claiming it doesn't because you don't have an ability before you have it [supported by an FAQ that I'd link if it hadn't been linked half a dozen times]. Then, Malachi claims that if you have any type of Weapon Training and you have Sohei levels, you have the ability, including the modification from the Sohei letting you flurry. That is countered by stating that the abilities are not the same, and have clear differences. Which is then in turn, countered by Sohei's Weapon Training functioning as the Fighter class feature, and by a quote from SKR saying that, basically, "if it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it is a duck".
Then the argument backtracks to "You don't have an ability before you have it", and uses things like the Paladin Capstone functioning at 1st level. Also, it continues by saying you can't look forward to future abilities. Which is countered by the fact that 1/2 of the argument for the Sohei/Weaponmaster flurry is based off of the fact that Sohei says "as the fighter class feature", which none of the given example have included.
To my knowledge, this is pretty much as far as the argument has gotten before it turned into a lot of unhelpful posts. Please correct me if I missed something.
So, I'll take a crack at countering the points that have not been addressed[and get this thread back on-topic]. The line from Weapon Training saying a Sohei may flurry with any weapon he has weapon training in is a part of Weapon Training. It is part of the class feature, it is listed in the class feature, and it is only listed in the Sohei's version of Weapon Training, not in anyone else's. Now, SKR's quote was referring to Oracle's Channel and Paladin's Channel Positive Energy counting as the Channel Energy class feature for the purpose of meeting prerequisites of feats [so a life oracle can take Elemental Channel or Channel Smite].
Context here is important. If you take this out of context, it indicates that Sohei's weapon training is the same as Weapon Master weapon training and Fighter weapon training, and thus all benefits[like flurrying applies]. However, in-context, it means, from my interpretation, that while they are different abilities, for things that require the Weapon Training class feature, like Gloves of Dueling or some feat I'm not aware of, then it is treated as weapon training even though it still functions differently as it is stated do so. Similarly, with the channel example, it means that Oracle's benefit from Phylacteries of Positive Channeling despite using "Channel" and not "Channel Energy".
Now, taking this in this context and the fact that the line about flurrying with weapons is one of the cases where weapon training is called out to function differently, look at this again. Saying that this works is akin to saying you have an ability before you have it, because it means that you are using one of those cases where you are getting an ability before you have it, because you don't have the line modifying Weapon Training. Also, it could be seen as saying the Life Oracle gets 3+Charisma channels/day, because it functions "like a cleric". To my knowledge, this point has not been addressed. If it has, I apologize for missing it, and would like to see where it has been addressed.
Right but in order for stacking to happen both classes have to have acquired the ability.
Try this class A gets sneak attack at lvl 1 and class b a prc gets it at lvl 5. Class be sneak says it stacks with other versions of sneak attack.
If your class a lvl 5 class b lvl 4 you have the sneak attack of class a lvl 5. There is no stacking of sneak because you haven't acquired it in the new class.
This sohei/weapon master issue isn't any different.
|
|
Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply; the demands of Real Life. It's taken me ages to find a good thesaurus. [/deadpan]
Earlier, I asked for 'that' FAQ to be posted. It was claimed that the FAQ forbids you from 'looking ahead to class features you don't have yet'. Thanks for posting it; it shows that the FAQ says nothing of the kind.
Let's be precise: what the FAQ makes clear is that you don't count as having a class feature until you actually have it. This is in the context of pre-requisites. For example, if you are a paladin you get Channel Positive Energy at 4th. There are feats which require you to have Channel Energy, and a single class paladin of less than 4th wouldn't count as having Channel Energy. However, note two things: a paladin 3/cleric 1 does have Channel Energy, and a single class paladin 4 counts as having Channel Energy, because (as SKR made clear) Channel Positive Energy counts as Channel Energy.
It should also be noted that not only does the Weapon Training gained at Sohei 6 count as Weapon Training 'as the fighter special ability', but that the Weapon Training gained at Weaponmaster 3 also counts as Weapon Training. There has been some serious goalpost-moving to suggest that the Gloves of Duelling ruling applies... Except for this one case!
The constant cries of 'You don't have a class feature until you actually have it', as if I disagree and as if this were a clinching argument, heve become almost surreal. It's like a Monty Python sketch! Here's what it sounds like:-
Me: I've got a new car! I'm taking it for a drive tomorrow.
You: You can't drive a car without a driver's license.
Me: It's okay, I've got one. I'm going to visit my grandma.
You: But you can't drive without a driver's license!
Me: I know! I've got a driver's license. Here, see? Thats me in the picture! It's not very flattering but....
You: No matter how many times you say it, you simply cannot drive unless you have a valid driver's license!
Me: Why do you keep saying that? I totally agree! But I do have a driver's license.
You: There's a law that says you can't drive on a public road without a valid driver's license.
Me: I know!
You: The law also says that you're not even allowed to look at other cars.
Me: What???
You: What you constantly fail to even address, Malachi, is that you're not allowed to drive without a valid driver's license. You keep dodging this fact, in your self-seving attempt to see your grandma! No matter how often you pretend that you don't need a driver's license in order to drive a car, you do need one and until you get one your granny will have to defend herself against wolves without your help.
Me: (...give me strength...)
Once again, for the cheap seats, I totally agree that you don't count as having a class feature until you actually have it!
But, once again, the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 has it.
You don't count as having Weapon Training until you actually have Weapon Training.
But the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3
Does.
Have.
Weapon Training.
A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training.
Class levels are not required here. It says, and means, that you require the class feature called 'Weapon Training' (as the fighter class feature). If you have that class feature, then (if you have them) you may use flurry of blows and Ki Strike with any weapon in you have Weapon Training.
And the Sohei 1/Weaponmaster 3 does have both flurry of blows and Weapon Training.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok. I think I can work with the driver's license thing.
Ok, taking a cue from you Mal, let's say you do have a drver's license. Oh look, you do! However, you want to drive a semi-truck. While you do have a license, your license doesn't allow you to drive such a vehicle, as you have a regular class c driver's license and to drive a truck, you are required to have a CDL (commercial driver license). As you do not have a CDL, you cannot leagally drive a semi-truck.
And that is what we've benn trying to say. It's not when you get the general class feature of weapon training, but the specific class feature. The general weapon training, which the weaponmaster has, doesn't say anything about ki strikes and FoB, while the sohei's WT does specifically say KS and FoB. And as we all know, specific trumps general, so seeing as the WM WT is general and the sohei WT is specific, only the sohei's WT is different and can be read as such, not every single instance of WT.
|
|
Ok. I think I can work with the driver's license thing.
Ok, taking a cue from you Mal, let's say you do have a drver's license. Oh look, you do! However, you want to drive a semi-truck. While you do have a license, your license doesn't allow you to drive such a vehicle, as you have a regular class c driver's license and to drive a truck, you are required to have a CDL (commercial driver license). As you do not have a CDL, you cannot leagally drive a semi-truck.
And that is what we've benn trying to say. It's not when you get the general class feature of weapon training, but the specific class feature. The general weapon training, which the weaponmaster has, doesn't say anything about ki strikes and FoB, while the sohei's WT does specifically say KS and FoB. And as we all know, specific trumps general, so seeing as the WM WT is general and the sohei WT is specific, only the sohei's WT is different and can be read as such, not every single instance of WT.
Extending the metaphor, you and others are saying that the Sohei do get a vehicle, just like the fighter, but that the vehicle the Sohei gives is a truck, not a car, and you need the special Sohei license.
This is where we disagree, and SKR and the rest of the rules agree with me. No matter which class grants Weapon Training, no matter which weapons to which it applies or could apply, as SKR said, 'things are the same unless they are different'.
Channel Energy and Channel Positive energy have several minor differences, but they count as Channel Energy.
Weapon Training is Weapon Training. The ability to flurry with weapons in which you have Weapon Training only refers to possession of the class feature, and says nothing about which class gave you that feature.
This is consistent with the rest of the rules. If a feat has a prerequisite of 'Channel Energy', then it doesn't care how or where you got that class feature, just that you have it.
The class feature gained at Sohei 6 is 'Weapon Training'. 'As the fighter class feature'. How Sohei may use this class feature is a different thing, and according to the words actually written, this ability is not gained at any specific level but as soon as a Sohei has these class features.
That 'truck' turned out to be just a car after all.
Try this. How many weapons does a sohei 1/ weapon master 7 have with weapon training? It should be 1 but malachi's logic should allow him to take from the soheis weapon group.
As for the license example a truck that requires a comercisl license isn't a car. Most people without training probably can't back one up without a spotter. They don't turn or handle the same wsy.
|
|
Try this. How many weapons does a sohei 1/ weapon master 7 have with weapon training? It should be 1 but malachi's logic should allow him to take from the soheis weapon group.
Part of the way Weapon Training works, just like Weapon Focus or others that apply only to a sub-group of weapons, is that you choose a weapon group. There are several classes/archetypes that grant Weapon Training, and each has a list of available weapon groups. In fact, the weapon 'group' can be only a single kind of weapon, as demonstrated by the Weaponmaster. But these are part of how Weapon Training works; it doesn't make them count as different class features, they all count as one class feature: Weapon Training.
However, when you gain a level in any class that gives Weapon Training, you may only choose from the list available to that class for that choice of weapon group. For example, a multi-class Sohei /vanilla fighter must choose from the fighter list when he gains Weapon Training 1, 2, 3 etc. and must choose from the Sohei weapon groups when gaining 6th, 12th or 18th level of Sohei.
As for the license example a truck that requires a comercisl license isn't a car. Most people without training probably can't back one up without a spotter. They don't turn or handle the same wsy.
Although true, we don't have any trucks here, they are all varieties of cars. It doesn't matter that you've taken out the back seat of your car and replaced it with a pick-up truck module, it's still a car.
Before we go too crazy with the analogy, let's remember that we ate talking about class features, not vehicles. Weapon Training is Weapon Training.
So we just ignore the 'specific trumps general'? Because under no other WT is there that specific addition as part of WT.
And in the sohei's weapon training, it is different. Different level progression, different allowed weapon group list, different bonus allowances specifically for the the sohei. How can the WM and sohei's WT class features be the same thing when they are different?
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
Read the bolded part. That whole sentance is the only sentance that 'as the fighter class feature' applies. You only choose a weapon group from that list and apply your normal fighter weapon training bonuses to it. That is the only sentance where that applies. If it was worded that 'as the fighter class feature' was at the end of the full ability, I would have to agree with you. But it's stopped short of being the full ability because only that first sentance works 'as the fighter class feature.'
The only part of the feat that emulates the fighter WT is that first sentance. Every other sentance after that sentance is a modification, specific to the sohei's 6th level ability. Like I said before, if it said level progression and use of FoB and ki strike before 'as the fighter class feature' I would have to agree. But they are after the statement, modifying the ability and treating it differently from the standard WT class feature.
The reason I asked Malachi is your being selective in which parts of the sohei weapon training you obtain . You either get all of it or none of it. The whole thing comes as a package.
|
|
And in the sohei's weapon training, it is different. Different level progression, different allowed weapon group list, different bonus allowances specifically for the the sohei. How can the WM and sohei's WT class features be the same thing when they are different?
Every single instance of Weapon Training has different level profession and allowed weapon group lists. This doesn't make them different class features. They are the same class feature granted by different classes, which improve at different rates, and have their own allowed weapon groups.
If a cleric archetype gives you Weapon Focus in your deities favoured weapon, this doesn't make Weapon Focus(longsword) from a cleric of Iomedae a different feat than Weapon Focus(longsword) gained from a fighter bonus feat. It is even the same feat as Weapon Focus(battle-axe), just applied to a different weapon.
Actually there is a difference just like the faq on cleric channeling. It states that a clerics channeling is different than a paladins or an oracles or a necromancers channeling and dont stack even though its all the same ability because unless ot specifically states it only applies to that class.
I don't think counting as similar abilities for combining them or items like duellists gloves or feats lets you actually have all the features of that ability. Unless of course you have that ability.
But you ignore the placement of where 'as the fighter class feature' is. It's in the first sentance, stating it functions 'as the fighter class feature. If it was at the end of the paragraph and said 'this otherwise functions as the fighter class feature', I'd be inclined to agree. But it isn't. It clearly points out where it does function 'as the fighter class feature' and where it's modified from the norm.
It means that the first part, with the weapon groups list is in fact the fighter weapon training class feature. But the second part, with the FoB and ki strike, is added specifically for the sohei's 6th level ability, it is a specific ability his, not any other class, gains through his version of weapon training. It's not a matter that it functions 'as the fighter class feature, a general rule stated under the fighter class, it's a matter that it specifically gives it to the sohei, and as we all know, specific trumps general. It is a specific ability that the sohei specifically gains at 6th level of sohei.
|
|
The reason I asked Malachi is your being selective in which parts of the sohei weapon training you obtain . You either get all of it or none of it. The whole thing comes as a package.
What Sohei get at 6th level is Weapon Training. That's it. It counts as Weapon Training and it is Weapon Training.
It's also noted that Sohei with Weapon Training can flurry with any weapon in which they have Weapon Training. This is not part of Weapon Training, but how Sohei can combine Weapon Training with flurry and Ki Strike.
It's like Weapon Training = ice cream.
Different classes give different flavours of ice cream, but whether it's chocolate, strawberry or vanilla, it is all still ice cream.
It is noted that Sohei can have apple pie with their ice cream (where apple pie = flurry of blows), but this doesn't make the Sohei's ice cream suddenly not ice cream any more, nor is the apple pie merely another ingredient of the ice cream.
The problem is sohei don't get served apple pie until 6th level which you ignore.
They need to stop using same names for abilities if they dont stack or influence the other classes in same character.
But im on pain meds so im gonna point to that faq in core about channeling. It states that even though clerics have channeling, and paladins, necromancers, and even oracles, they dont stack and only effect that class. Aka channel all those classes have it BUT because it doesnt specifically state it stacks it doesnt effect other classes.
the whole fighter is only to reference what bonuses u get so it didnt have to retype all those words. The wording is the same for abities like fast healimg and regeneration, regeneration state fast healing so u look at it and see what ur getting BUT u are not getting fast healing, ur getting regeneration.
Ok drug fueled rant over, im out.
|
|
The problem is sohei don't get served apple pie until 6th level which you ignore.
They get apple pie (flurry of blows) at 1st, and Sohei flavour ice cream (Weapon Training with certain weapon groups) at 6th. Sohei can have them both in the same dish as soon as they have both apple pie and ice cream, no matter what flavour the ice cream.
|
|
They need to stop using same names for abilities if they dont stack or influence the other classes in same character.
But im on pain meds so im gonna point to that faq in core about channeling. It states that even though clerics have channeling, and paladins, necromancers, and even oracles, they dont stack and only effect that class. Aka channel all those classes have it BUT because it doesnt specifically state it stacks it doesnt effect other classes.
the whole fighter is only to reference what bonuses u get so it didnt have to retype all those words. The wording is the same for abities like fast healimg and regeneration, regeneration state fast healing so u look at it and see what ur getting BUT u are not getting fast healing, ur getting regeneration.Ok drug fueled rant over, im out.
I hope you look again at what SKR says, after your meds wear off. It says the exact opposite!
It doesn't say it stacks, it says that despite all the minor differences in controlling stat, times/day, mix of positive/negative, despite all of these differences they both count as Channel Energy! Extra Channel is one feat that applies to either.
And by the same token, Weapon Training counts as Weapon Training(!), no matter which class gives it.
This is confirmed by the comments about Gloves of Duelling. If it walks and talks like a duck, it's a duck, and the plumage don't enter into it!
What Sohei get at 6th level is Weapon Training. That's it.
Wrong. Look again.
Weapon Training (Ex): At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons. He may select an additional group of weapons for every six levels after 6th, to a maximum of three at 18th level. A sohei may use flurry of blows and ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, quivering palm, timeless body, and tongue of sun and moon.
They get weapon training and the ability to use flurry and Ki strike with any weapon in which he has weapon training. It's listed in the class ability they get at 6th level. You get that class ability at 6th level, not before.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They need to stop using same names for abilities if they dont stack or influence the other classes in same character.
But im on pain meds so im gonna point to that faq in core about channeling. It states that even though clerics have channeling, and paladins, necromancers, and even oracles, they dont stack and only effect that class. Aka channel all those classes have it BUT because it doesnt specifically state it stacks it doesnt effect other classes.
the whole fighter is only to reference what bonuses u get so it didnt have to retype all those words. The wording is the same for abities like fast healimg and regeneration, regeneration state fast healing so u look at it and see what ur getting BUT u are not getting fast healing, ur getting regeneration.Ok drug fueled rant over, im out.
I hope you look again at what SKR says, after your meds wear off. It says the exact opposite!
It doesn't say it stacks, it says that despite all the minor differences in controlling stat, times/day, mix of positive/negative, despite all of these differences they both count as Channel Energy! Extra Channel is one feat that applies to either.
And by the same token, Weapon Training counts as Weapon Training(!), no matter which class gives it.
This is confirmed by the comments about Gloves of Duelling. If it walks and talks like a duck, it's a duck, and the plumage don't enter into it!
It looks like a duck but it aint walking or quaking just like a duck as many people have pointed out. The only thing that is similar is the name and the bonuses u get. The group of weapons is not the same, the level is not the same, and it also has extra wording that the fighter doesnt have.
you are looking at the class ability like its a feat which it isnt. Feats tell u what the prerequisites are and u have the option to chose or not chose them. Class abilities are a bit different in that the only prerequisite it has for that class ability is the level in that class it gives the ability unless it specifically states it stacks (assassins sneak attack) or can be used with another classes ability (ninjas ki pool) and u have to chose them unless it specifically staes u can chose or ur doing an archetype.unlike a feat u cannot gain a class ability, only until u have reached that classes level. Take the faq on bonus spells, at character creation due to ur ability scores u gain extra spells but it specifically states u are to ignore those extra spells until u gain the right level in which to use them because even though u gained the extras spells u have not met the prereq in being that classes level to cast them.
the channel energy faq about stacking and does have merit in this discussion. What that faq is saying is even though the cleric, paladin, necromancer, and oracle all have channel energy they do not influence the other classes abilities even though they have the same name. Meaning u cannot have a 3lvl cleric/4lvl paladin/3lvl oracle channeling 6d6 energy because even though they have the same ability and same ability name, it does not influence or enhance or whatever with the other classes ability of the same name because they are specifically for that class and must be used seperately unless it specifically sates it does. just like a weapon master and a sohei both have the same class ability of weapon training but because of this faq, since they dont specifically state they stack, they do not influence the other classes abilities. otherwise the 3 lvl cleric/4th level paladin/3lvl oracle having the same class ability channel energy, it would influence the other classes in what that channel energy would end up being but it doesnt meaning they can only channel 2d6 when they channel. so yes u are correct in that for FEATS their abilities would all count the same for prereqs for the feat. class abilities are not feats though.
the cleric, paladin, and oracle classes each get icecream but they cant combine their icecream together and eat at same time in one big icecream dish, it has to be eaten each one seperately. so yes weapon master is having icecream and the sohei needs to have icecream to flurry with it, but the weapon master cant share his icecream with the sohei, because the sohei has to wait til lvl 6 to get the icecream to flurry with.
Its a class ability (aka prereq is being a certain level in THAT class, not a feat. they are seperate and not the same. If this was a feat a class gained, yes u could use this combination to gain the feat earlier, but it isnt a feat and its a class ability and the only way to gain class abilitys is to be a certain level in that class.
yes im gonna be on meds for awhile though lol until i get this damn broken infected wisdom tooth yanked out later this week.