Cancer from the Void


Round 3: Create a Bestiary entry

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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

This floating mass of cancerous alien flesh is surrounded by a cloud of long, writhing cilia.

Cancer from the Void CR 7
XP 3200
CE Large Aberration
Init +3; Senses Blindsight 60’; Perception +0
Aura dissonance of the void (60 ft.), unnatural aura

----- Defense -----
AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 20 (+1 Dex, +11 natural, -1 Size)
hp 95 (10d8+50); fast healing 5
Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +7
DR 5/-; Immune poison; Resist fire 10, cold 10; SR 19
Weaknesses cold iron, positive energy

----- Offense -----
Speed fly 20 ft. (perfect)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks corrupting cilia (5d6+5 + corruption)
Spell-Like Abilities
Constant—deathwatch, detect magic

----- Statistics -----
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +11; CMD 22 (cannot be tripped)
Feats Toughness, Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Great Fortitude, Following Step(B)
Skills Spellcraft +17, Fly +20
Languages Aklo
SQ child of the void, all-around sight

----- Ecology -----
Environment any non-aquatic
Organization solitary or plague (2-12)
Treasure normal

----- Special Abilities -----
Child of the Void (Ex) A cancer is considered an ooze for all hostile spell effects not originating from an aberration. It can enter into a hibernating state allowing space survival, and is capable of limited space flight. When hibernating, it exudes a protective coating that makes it immune to the shock and heat of earthfall. The coating's purple hue is distinctive as it burns away during descent.
Corrupting Cilia (Ex) A cancer extrudes an undulating swarm of feelers and cilia into the entire area within its reach that caress everything therein. A DC 19 Reflex save avoids the cilia’s lethal touch, and dodge bonuses apply to the roll (save DC’s are Constitution-based). The save is required each time a creature enters the cancer’s reach, and each round it remains there.
A living creature failing the Reflex save takes 5d6+5 points of body-corrupting damage, and must make a DC 19 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Constitution damage as its flesh bubbles, boils and necrotizes from the unnatural energies shuddering through it. Death by corruption results in collapsing into a festering, quivering mass of pustules and tumors that the cancer quickly scoops up for consumption, seizing also any magical items it can discern on the corpse. Corpses not consumed agglomerate into gibbering mouthers, given time.
Aberrations are immune to the cilia’s secondary effect.
Dissonance of the Void (Sp) A cancer radiates an aura of magical disruption that makes the brains of creatures with magical ability throb nauseatingly. Non-aberrations in this aura must make a defensive Concentration check to use magic successfully.
Voidborn Vulnerability A cancer takes +5 damage from the touch of non-magical cold iron as a hyperallergic reaction.
If struck by positive energy, a cancer is immediately dazed for one round as its squirming flesh erupts in writhing growths and bursting polyps from the surge of healing energy.

Bulbous masses of obscene pseudo-flesh from the depths of the Dark Tapestry, cancers of the void, or ‘The Purple Heralds of the Tapestry’, resemble great floating cyst-infested tumors surrounded by constantly writhing tendrils of all sizes that fondle everything about it with malignant hunger. Ponderous and resilient, cancers are drawn to magic and life, and at their touch everything that lives warps, mutates, and dies from erupting necrotic growths. When purple stars fall, sky-gazing druids and watchful flumphs rush to resist this unnatural corruption from between the stars, even as master aberrations hurry to enslave the cancers and take their void-born secrets for themselves.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

Hey, Bob...welcome to Round 3. This carousel doesn't end until you either fall out of the competition or win the whole thing. You've been chugging along and making your way through the competition as best you can so far. Let's see what you've given us this time around.

Wall of Text:

Spoiler:

First off, going into monster design, a freelance designer has to recognize certain basic elements of the game...the give-and-take of all the variables upon which it's mechanically founded. The most important defining characteristic (which has a trickle down effect) in monster design is its Challenge Rating (CR). The rules for Round 3 already told you what that would be...i.e., CR 7. Thus, the "test" for this round isn't just determining if you can cook up a really great idea for a monster. It's also to see how well you can interpret what a CR 7 monster is meant to have, mechanically-speaking, that distinguishes it from a CR 6 or a CR 8 monster.

So, what are the trickle down effects you need to know for a CR 7 creature? In general, its AC should be around 20. Its hit points should be around 85. Its best saving throws should be around +10 and its weaker saving throws should still be around +6. The damage curve potential for a combat-focused CR 7 monster should be around a +13 attack inflicting an average of 22-30 points of damage per round if all its attacks manage to hit an opponent. Even a less combat-focused CR 7 monster should still have around a +10 attack and the DCs for any special abilities or SLAs should be a DC 17 for a primary power and a DC 12 for a lesser power. There's still wiggle room within these numbers, but typically, if you make one of those things higher or lower, you want to offset it with a variation in one of the other statistics above.

Additionally, monsters should be built around the non-standard array for their ability scores (i.e., 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) before applying racial adjustments. These adjustments should always come in even-numbered increments (i.e., +2, +4, +6, etc.). That means for a basic monster design, you should end up with three odd-numbered ability score values and three even-numbered ability score values.

Okay. With all that serving as your baseline, let's see where you've taken us...

Creativity Factor:
A cancerous, alien horror from the void! Aaaaiiieee! Run!

Actually...Cancer from the Void? Not really a winning name. I understand why you called it that. I just don't think it strikes the right chord.

The Lovecraft genre is almost always a hit with people. In some ways, it's wise that you reached for that...in terms of fostering more voter support. In other ways, I'm somewhat disappointed. It's kind of the easy road from a design creativity standpoint. It leans on a well-established genre and doesn't really add anything tremendously new or innovative to it. Instead, I would have rather seen you come up with something completely new and unique to your own creative imagining. Something that folks could point to and say that's Bob's style. Maybe you love Lovecraft enough to view it as your preferred style? But, if so, you've got to own it and do something so quintessentially Lovecraftian that it elevates the genre in unexpected and pleasing ways. And I'm not sure that's how I feel about the cancer from the void.

Mechanical Considerations:
Just because I'm OCD, I did a very quick number crunching of your design using the spreadsheet Paizo provides us as freelancers. I thought it was important to do that just to give some kind of assessment on your technical skills. I ran into a few things that seemed off to me. You might want to go back and double-check the following:

- This thing is an aberration that functions like a swarm. Yet, it doesn't have swarm traits, just an automatic damage code for extending its corrupting cilia into the squares around it. I'm not won over by the presumed mechanical innovation here. This creature is still trying to figure out what it wants to be. It's not really an aberration or a swarm or an ooze. It just doesn't come across as very focused.

- In addition, the corrupting cilia attack lists "+ corruption" in its damage line as if that's another monster ability. The only place that effect is actually detailed is under the corrupting cilia special ability. That's just not the way it should appear in a stat-block.

- Looks like you're short a feat if Following Step is intended as a bonus feat. That feat normally carries a prerequisite of the Step Up feat, so maybe that's what you forgot to include here?

Presentation:
There are a few missteps in the template. Lots of presentation errors. The creature type should be lowercase. Same deal for blindsight and it needs to write out the range as "60 ft." rather than "60'"...the feats need to be alphabetized...same deal with the list of resistances...the DR 5/- really ought to be DR 5/cold iron rather than listing cold iron as a weakness. The actual weakness should say "voidborn vulnerability" rather than "cold iron, positive energy." The creature's unnatural aura needs a range. And the all-around sight ability should be listed under Defensive Abilities or Senses rather than Special Qualities.

Bottom Line:
The core concept wanted to be a quintessential Lovecraft horror. I get what you were going for...but we have plenty of these types of monsters already in the game. Anything new on this front really needs to rock it hard. And I just didn't get that from it. Additionally, there were some pretty serious flaws in both your mechanical considerations and the presentation of the stat-block. You still need a lot of work on those things. And I would have liked to see you really tighten things up if you were going to go for something this ambitious. It could have been a homerun. As such, it's more of a foul ball for me. Big swing. Just didn't connect at the right angle.

Given all that, I'm going to say I DO NOT RECOMMEND this monster to carry you through to the next round. The voters (and other judges) may feel otherwise, however. Some designs I didn't recommend last round still made it through. So, that's entirely possible here, as well. If you do make it through, I'll want to see you crank it up a notch for the encounter round. And I'd like to see how many of the lessons here you can apply in your design.

Looking back across your earlier work, I also liked your figurine of familiar power, but it too sort of leaned somewhat on things that already exist in the game, i.e. a figurine of wondrous power. Nevertheless, I thought it showed promise and some decent innovation. It's what got you into the competition. I put myself on the fence, however for your organization with the Fear, Fist, and Flame. In some ways, I think you fell in love with your subject there (orcs!) and that too caused you to lose focus somewhat on bringing something with Superstar innovation and mojo. Now I feel the same way with your monster design and the Lovecraft homage. Best of luck in the voting.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Bob, good job advancing to Round 3!

What I am looking for:I’m a big picture guy more than a minute details guy. I don’t think just seeing if you crunched out the rules properly is the right way to judge a good entry for this round. Of course you need to execute the stat block properly. Luckily, Sean, Neil and others are way more qualified than I am to talk about the nit picks and issues with the stat block so I will leave that to them. My comments to you will be more “big picture.” For me, I want to see a monster that is fun and playable—a monster that leaps of the page and makes me find a way to incorporate it at the game table. That, to me, is a superstar monster. So here we go…

Initial Impression: Purple Heralds all through my brain
Lately things don't feel the same
Actin' funny but I don't know why
'Scuze me while I kiss the sky!

Listen, I love Lovecraft as much as the next guy but the “eldritch horror from the void” is a pretty safe and “been there, done that” kind of monster for Superstar. But let’s see what you did with it…

The Concept (name, overall design choices, design niche, playability/usability, challenge): B
I think this is way too safe for superstar. That said, I like the name and it does some interesting things. I like the cancer angle.

Execution (quality of writing, organization, Golarion-specific, use of proper format, quality of content—description, summary of powers, rules execution, mechanics innovation): C+
"A cancer is considered an ooze..." That’s a bad start. Oozes are verboten in this round. It feels like you are just trying to circumvent the rules by calling it an aberration then making it like an ooze. Then turning to the main power, I love the idea of the corrupting cillia. I like the creation of gibbering mouthers, too. Good stuff. That said, the corrupting cillia power is just too much. If I am reading your monster right, it doesn’t have an attack for the cillia--instead, every round it gets to whack everything within reach unless they make a Reflex save. Wow. That is just way too much. I like the idea, but that is way too much for a CR 7 monster. Maybe I am wrong, maybe someone like Neil with his rules-fu can come in and say there are other monsters that can do this at that level and with that scope, but I can’t think of any that can do this every round to everyone in reach. Some entries have had powers that are a bit much, but because I feel you have actually clearly gone beyond the proper powers of a CR 7 monster I have to really mark you down. Plus, where is the Golarion here?

Tilt (did it grab me, do I want to use one in an adventure?, mojo, just plain fun factor): B
Even though I think the "horrid thing from the void" is pretty tired, this creature has some cool things about it and I would use it over many of the bad Lovecraft ripoffs that are out there—once the overpowered attack is addressed.

Overall: B-
Too safe and too over-powered even for me, and that is saying something. Sorry, Bob. I hope the voters see it differently.

Recommendation: I DO NOT RECOMMEND voters consider this monster to advance to the Top 8.

Your figurine provided some low level fun and I liked it. Your Fear, Fist and Flame didn’t show the same mojo to me and perhaps was a bit of a sidestep rather than an advancement. I really needed to see a big improvement from you this round. Not sure I got that. But I respect your attempt and I certainly wish you the best of luck!

Contributor

Welcome to Round 3! I'm posting this little blurb at the top of my reply for everyone. FYI, I'm not going to crunch all the math in your stat block, for several reasons. One, I don't have an hour for each monster. :) Two, I'm sure you've been very diligent about this and if anything is wrong, it's probably only off by a little bit. Three, if you were writing this for publication in a Paizo book, you'd be using our stat block spreadsheet, which takes care of the math for you--your job is to understand the rules and bring the mojo. Four, Neil's going to scrutinize that stuff because he is a machine. :) My focus in this review is on the overall coolness and balance of your monster, with an eye on how efficiently you put it together and a spot-check of stat block elements that catch my eye.

While the name is definitely memorable, I'm not sure it has the right ring to it. Perhaps "voidborn cancer" is better.

Dissonance of the void refers to a "defensive Concentration check"... I assume you mean "cast defensively." Concentration is no longer a skill, and isn't capitalized. The "non-aberrations only" is weird, as it means nagas and other aberrations that don't have anything to do with space can ignore it. Actually, I don't see why aberrations should ignore it, it's not like aboleths have space-brains, or couldn't make the concentration DC easily.

Creatures at this CR usually don't have both DR and SR. This thing has SR 19, which doesn't follow the typical pattern of SR = CR + 11 (it's built that way to make it easier to remember so you don't have to keep looking it up).

You list "Weakness cold iron" and a Special Ability called Voidborn Vulnerability, I think you didn't synch them up because the Weakness isn't explained and the VV isn't mentioned in the stat block.

For Voidborn Vulnerability, there's no reason to limit it to nonmagical cold iron, just let it be cold iron (though just giving it DR 5/cold iron pretty much takes care of the cold iron vulnerability you're aiming for and the DR 5/— you gave it). It also doesn't address what happens from damaging positive energy effects (like a few cleric spells).

"Weakness positive energy" doesn't make sense, I think you mean Vulnerability, or need to synch up its Voidborn Vulnerability with that.

The creature doesn't have any melee attacks, but you have its Corrupting Cilia affecting all creatures in its reach every round, which means this is a brutal monster that deals damage every round without making attack rolls.

I don't know why it has the Spellcraft skill or Skill Focus (Spellcraft), as it doesn't have to identify what the magic is, it just has to recognize it.

It's missing a feat (bonus feats don't count toward the its number of allotted feats).

It moves slow enough that most creatures can avoid it... and if you see a flying space tumor surrounded by probing cilia, I strongly recommend you avoid it.

It's Initiative bonus should be +5 (+1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative).

It being an aberration-that-is-treated-as-an-ooze feels like a way to get around the no-oozes restriction of this monster task. "For all hostile spell effects not originating from an aberration" is also weird, see my above comment about nagas and aboleths. Especially as its environment is non-aquatic... if it can hibernate in space, you'd think it could hold its breath for a while, or grow some cancer-gill-lungs.

It has a huge Fly skill bonus, but (1) it's a big fat flying tumor, and (2) fly checks are almost never needed. With speed 20 ft. it's not like this thing is making hairpin turns. What it really needs is a decent Perception score.

Strange that a mass of undifferentiated flesh doesn't have the amorphous and/or compression abilities.

I think there's a kernel of a neat idea here, but it needs polish and better proofreading. I think the no-oozes restriction of the round challenge clashed with your original monster idea and you tried to salvage it under the new constraints.


It is a giant tumor from space.

This thing is a classic Lovecraftian horror. If it doesn't creep you out something's wrong with you.

It's got a lot of hp and a bunch of immunities. So it's going to be hard to kill. That's OK in general since it doesn't seem likely to be encountered except in a situation where the PCs are going to be able to disperse as needed and fight with good battlespace management.

Child of the Void ability: I don't know what "hostile spell effects not originating from an aberration" means. It only has two spell-like abilities and neither are "hostile".

It's featured ability is Corrupting Cillia. A Fortitude save would be more appropriate for this ability. The damage if you fail the save is huge, plus ability drain (which feedback-loops to more hp damage since you're targeting CON). I could see this thing TPK a party real quick if it somehow got them boxed into a space where an exit was hard.

Imagine what would happen if a villain cast Greater Invisibility on this thing!

Voidborn Vulnerability is effectively a magic bullet against this creature. Once the PCs figure it out, it's dead. The Dazed condition means it cannot do anything except sit there while the PCs slay it. That's kind of old-school; if you know the "secret" a really dangerous foe becomes a cakewalk. On the other hand, the problem with this style of design is that player knowledge and PC knowledge are simply inseparable and it is very likely that the monster gets ganked. I call that poor design.

Lots of presentation issues. Mechanical issues as described by Neil.

Parting Shot: Lovecraft is old and tired at this point, and most folks miss the point anyway (the horrors from beyond space are supposed to be existential threats to the whole world, not monsters to be slain)

Overall I give this thing a C- grade.

I recommend that you do not vote for this designer.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Imagine what would happen if a villain cast Greater Invisibility on this thing!

Ryan, this is why I love you. That is just pure evil.

But it's also the kind of thing you have to think through as a designer. You can't set up unbeatable combos. What Ryan just mentioned really shows one of the flaws of the cillia "attack everyone in reach each round, auto hit, save to avoid"--if it isnt over the top just as it is, you pair it with something like what Ryan says and it is a CR7 TPK machine.


Good idea and yet a lot of technical issues starting with the name. Ok, name is not exactly a technical issue but it made me stop reading for a moment and thinking about better name. In case of lovercraftian monstrosities I have no problem with their name being a couple of unrelated vowels or consonants scratching my throat (unless there was specific rule against it in the contest, hadn't checked) - so naming it Yfthgl would be better than cancer from the void in my opinion.

Star Voter Season 6

Wow, I barely started glancing through your monster and I immediately noticed it was way too powerful. I'm a fan of your Figurine, and wasn't a big supported of your organization, and I think you really fell through with this Cancer.

The Exchange

Hmmm, I know I said elsewhere that I am a fan of all things creepy...

This is definitely creepy but, um. Well, it's cancer?! I have a hard time wrapping my mind around cancer as a monster.

I'll have to take some time to think about this one.

Dark Archive

I made a list of all the beasties, and marked down some quick thoughts like 'yes,' 'no' and 'meh', and this one got 'hell, yes!'

It's just awesomely hideously creepy. I love the idea that it can fall from space, it's slime coating burning away in purple fire.

I'm not in love with the word 'cancer' in it's name. But that's, literally, the easiest thing to change about a monster.

The Exchange Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really liked the description and how easy it is to literally throw at the PCs. At first I thought I was the flying spaghetti monster, but I quickly changed my mind.

I think the corrupting cilia could have been done in a more interesting way. as is it will be a big pain for melee. I hope they have their knowledge skills high or they will be in for a huge surprise. It really should have stealth to set up ambushes so the whole party can enjoy it.

Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Disgusting, feels a bit too powerful for CR 7, not getting my vote.

Silver Crusade

My first thought when I read the name was the Cancerverse that just recently showed up in Marvel Comics. It is rather creepy and I love the concept I am troubled by the whole it's an aberration that is treated like an ooze mechanism. I am on the fence about this one, I may vote for this if I don't find enough other monsters that catch my eye.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9

Having had several family members die from cancer, the name immediately put me off, and i just can't get past that. Sorry, but no vote from me.


I'm afraid I'm with James on this one.


My criteria for deeming a monster voteworthy:

1. Can I drop this into my home campaign and still do something interesting with it outside of Golarion? Maybe... but if I want to introduce a horror from beyond the stars, I already have a LOT of options for doing so, many of which are more interesting than this. I don't find the name offensive (I've lost a step sibling to breast cancer too, for the record, so I guess everyone's sensitivity varies on that point), but I don't think it's terribly creative either.

2. Does this monster inspire me to design an encounter just for the purpose of featuring it? Not really.

3. Will my players think the monster's physical description is cool, or will they laugh it off of the table? I think they'll find it non-descript and wonder why I didn't use something cooler instead. They're run into some weird stuff in the Lovecraftian vein of things already - this thing isn't that odd by comparison.

Additional Thoughts: I also agree that the mechanics feel off - this thing is acting more like an ooze or maybe a swarm than an aberration. I'm not inclined to vote for this creature.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Bob Drouin wrote:
Cancer from the Void CR 7

I haven't shared my opinion much in the Superstar contest, but I want to this round.

Short of the long, if this monster was submitted to me, I'd reject it.
1) This monster is overpowered for a CR 7. The numbers line up better with a CR 8. An easy fix sure, but this is specifically for a CR 7 monster.
2) A flat DR and weakness to cold iron. So when you wield a CI weapon, you deal extra damage but you lose 5 points of it to DR. Those don't jive.
3)Its an aberration that is considered an ooze for all players. So ... why not make it an ooze. I know the rules forbid oozes, but ... that just really strikes me as trying to stick a square peg in a round hole.

The first 2 can be fixed with easy edits but the last speaks to more of an overall design flaw. Something like that I would be worried about mistakes I did not catch. So I would reject it.

The monster itself if flavorful and interesting, but I worry about the mechanical soundness of it.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

Oh god, I'm not even all the way through this monster and I'm not liking it. "Cancer" as a name is a risk on it's own, even though it makes sense for an aberration, but you really don't pull it off.

I bet the judges caught this (normally I read their comments before posting), but with abnormally high HP, DR/-, SR, immunities, *and* fast healing, this isn't a CR7 monster. It's a CR8 or 9 monster unless it has no combat ability at all, and with the ability to do 2 Con damage in what is nearly an aura *and* 5d6+5 damage each hit (which is above average anyways at 22 damage per round even at one target), I would say this potentially brushes CR 11.

Except for it's 20 ft speed, which is unforgivable at this level. Anyone with a bow and 60 ft of space beats this monster every time. Anyone without a bow loses to this monster (or flees), every time. Does not meet the design chops I expect for this level of competition.

Sorry man, no vote for you.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Bob Drouin wrote:
MMM, would REALLY like to post about how much math I did for this. heh!

After producing a monster book, I can definitely say that monster books are NOT easy. I feel your pain.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Demiurge 1138

Where do I begin with this one? Off the bat, I'm instantly leery at its defenses, which are all very strong for the CR. Instead of making attacks, it has an aura of damage. Now, the aura does 23 damage a round, which is fair for a CR 7... but to multiple targets? Every round? The special abilities between the stat-block and the Special Abilities paragraphs don't match up, and the DR 5/- but vulnerable to non-magic cold iron really rubs me the wrong way. There is a precedent for DR/non-magical (the lukwata, of Serpent's Skull and Bestiary 3).

There's a lot of non-mechanical language among the mechanics section. "Body-corrupting damage"? "Faint purple trail" left by its atmospheric entry? This stuff could have been in the flavor text. And how exactly do its victims become gibbering mouthers, "given time"? Is this a create spawn ability?

The "treated as an ooze for all hostile spell effects originating from non-aberrations" stops me dead in my tracks. So, an aberration can cast a poison spell on a Co'tV, but a person can't? Or get a critical hit with scorching ray? How? Why?

Although I'm usually a sucker for horrors from beyond the stars, I will not be voting for this entry. Best of luck in the polls.


Bob Drouin wrote:
A DC 19 Reflex save avoids the cilia’s lethal touch, and dodge bonuses apply to the roll (save DC’s are Constitution-based).

Anyone else found this weird ? Are those AC dodge bonuses ? I don't recall seeing any other abilities with that criteria.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

Quote:
(REDACTED)

Your comments are probably skirting (if not over) the line of acceptable commentary.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

You're not allowed to justify or clarify, Bob. People are free to interpret your work as they will. So, clam up.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6 aka Evil Paul

Neil Spicer wrote:
The Lovecraft genre is almost always a hit with people. In some ways, it's wise that you reached for that...in terms of fostering more voter support. In other ways, I'm somewhat disappointed

This monster has a lot of errors, scoring 0/4 from the judges. Neil is right, in that lots of people like Lovecraftian monsters and that might win you the votes. I'd love to proudly state that I am a discerning punter and won't fall for it... but...

... I actually like it. I think the core idea of a floating cancer is really good. I was wondering if the judges would comment about this being too close to the bone for the the family-friendly approach of Paizo (cf previous Sean/Ryan comments on dead babies), but seeing as they haven't I must assume it is ok.

What else do I like? Well, the CON damage is nasty, and fits in well with the horror theme. CON damage is one of the scariest things that a PC can face. I hate the auto-hit swarm mechanic. The "ooze but not an ooze" is also poor, should have just dropped that and gone for a full aberation. I'm also not sure what "use magic" means, is that a thing? None of the judges have commented so maybe I'm missing a rule here.

I've giving it a vote, but only just.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Bob Drouin wrote:
(REDACTED)

I've referred this post to the other judges in the judges' chambers.

Basically, posting that you know the rule that you can't comment, then saying how much you REALLY want to violate that rule, and then suggesting generally what you would tell people if you did violate the rule ("I did all this math!") all all under the guise of refraining from commenting is, in my view, not proper. The other judges will decide.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Bob Drouin wrote:
(REDACTED)

At this point I think you are clearly over the line. I'm sorry to say that I am recommending your disqualification. It's not up to me, though. The others will decide.


Oh crap Bob I hope you don't get disqualified!

I have to say, I hate the name 'cancer from the void'. I really do. I would be irritated every time I had to call the monster 'the cancer' in game.

Star Voter Season 6

Reptilian wrote:
Bob Drouin wrote:
A DC 19 Reflex save avoids the cilia’s lethal touch, and dodge bonuses apply to the roll (save DC’s are Constitution-based).
Anyone else found this weird ? Are those AC dodge bonuses ? I don't recall seeing any other abilities with that criteria.

That line made me VERY wary of this monster design. I don't want to have to have to tell my players to remember to add any dodge bonuses they may have to their reflex saves.

Overall, I find a lot of abilities poorly implemented. The DR/- but having vulnerabilities could have easily been simplified. DR + Fast Healing + SR + Energy Resistance + high end HP make this a defensive tank. Giving it automatic damage - something players HATE - on top of that is a mistep.

Child of the Void is pretty weird. Why does it coming from an abberation matter? Everything after the 1st sentance is flavor text.

What is "body-corrupting damage"
"Death by corruption" - does this refer to being reduced to 0 con or from the damage as well?
"Corpses not consumed agglomerate into gibbering mouthers, given time" - How much time? Day? Week? Hour? Minute?

"Aberrations are immune to the cilia’s secondary effect." Have you read the list of Aberrations: aboleth, choker, chuul, cloaker, dark naga, drider, ettercap, froghemoth, gibbering mouther, guardian naga, intellect devourer, mimic, neothelid, otyugh, roper, rust monster, spirit naga, will-o'-wisp - A lot of these make no sense for being immune.

Contributor

The following is the unanimous ruling of the judges and Paizo representatives following meeting and discussion:

Unfortunately, we have decided to disqualify competitor Bob Drouin from the 2012 RPG Superstar competition.

The Round 3 rules state that a submission may be disqualified if
"Competitor adds to, expands upon, or clarifies the contents of his or her own submission during the voting period, whether this takes place on paizo.com or elsewhere."

The Official Rules for the entire contest state
"5. During public voting rounds, contestants are prohibited from any public discussion that could be considered as adding to, expanding upon, or clarifying the content of their current submission. This applies to (but is not limited to) interviews, personal blogs, and messageboard posts on paizo.com or elsewhere, including the paizo.com discussion thread for the entry itself. Any such discussion may result in disqualification, in the sole discretion of the judges and/or Paizo."

The competitors were warned during Round 2 about crossing the line for what is acceptable posting, reminded about the FAQ and its safe-to-post statement.

We've reached the point where gentle warnings about "do this one more time and someone is getting disqualified" are not sufficient. While we want this to remain a friendly and pleasant competition, Paizo needs to make sure that competitors can follow the rules of a contest (just as we'd expect them to follow the rules of a work contract or a confidentiality agreement).

In future rounds, competitors will not be allowed to post about about their submissions at all while voting is open.

Bob Drouin's entry is disqualified and he will not advance to the next round. No alternates will be brought in to take his place. To prevent a technical issue where deleting his entry may accidentally redistribute votes for him to other competitors, his entry in the voting booth will have a line through it; if you vote for him, that vote will not count. You are still able to reassign your votes until the voting period ends on Friday, February 20th.

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Though Bob has been disqualified, he was a valued contestant and created some good work. It is too bad that other actions, not those tied to the quality of his work, led to his DQ. Feel free to continue to discuss Bob's monster entry.


I see now what happened, the screen did not load all the way so I never saw explaining why he was disqualified.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

ah, well, clammed up too late, and it's my own fault. Swinging for the fences is a nasty thing.

Everyone who voted for me, make sure you shift your votes, now that you've got a spare!

I assume this does mean I can comment on the build for real, or should I still wait until voting is done?

===Bob D.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut

See Clark's suggestion above. But it's ultimately your call at this point. My suggestion would be to wait a bit. Build up your goodwill with everyone. Just because you get DQ'ed, doesn't mean you can't come back and compete again next year. So, certainly spend some time here explaining how and why you designed things a certain way. Just give it a bit of time, maybe, until the voting closes and we determine the Top 8.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

Hokay dokay. I have no hard feelings...I was pleased to advance two rounds! Hopefully I can get some commentary/critiques from the judges when I lay out the full reasonings behind my build.

==Bob D.


For what's it's worth, I'm sorry Bob if it was my comment that pushed you to write the post that got you disqualified. I really liked your Figurine of familiar power and I hope you still participate next year.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

Meh, no apologies needed, Rep. The stress of negative comments overall was the turning point, not any one in particular. I knew I shouldn't have taken a hard swing like I did, but the comments on playing it safe got to me.

Another lesson learned for next year! KISS.

==Bob Drouin

Dark Archive

Hope all is well, Bob. I am extremely sorry about what happened. I wanted to see what else you would do as rounds progressed, and as others have already written of these things much more eloquently than I could I will leave it at a very sincere apology and speak no more of it at present...

(...except for one thing: I've checked the voting box next to your monster anyway even though it doesn't count, and time is against me changing my mind and giving the vote to someone I don't want to.)

I voted for Fear, Fist, and Flame, partly because it appealed to me despite my initial misgivings as did your wondrous item, the Figurine of Familiar Power, and the same thing happened for the second time this competition: as I was putting my notes together and making sure to vote for the contestants whose monsters I really liked as well as those I wasn't completely thrilled by but who demonstrated skill and imagination and also had good work to back them up from the previous rounds, that although there are some things that rub me the wrong way about this submission I ended up liking it more as time passed.

I felt the same way about the Figurine of Familiar Power; at first glance it seemed to me to be too much like any other wondrous item figurine for me to be interested in it, but then when Round Two began and I revisited Fear, Fist, and Flame, I began reading over the Figurine of Familiar Power again and realizing that it was actually a well thought-out and useful idea, and the mechanics were great, but if your organization wouldn't have made me curious about your item I may never have read to the end of the item's description.

And with Fear, Fist, and Flame, the name didn't grab my interest and temperamentally they reminded me of about half of the PCs my friends play in campaigns that I GM, but as the deadline for voting grew closer the more I read and re-read both the organization and the item, and now that the monster round it almost up, well...

With voting closing soon I have only come up with 5 contestant's monsters so far this round that I can justify giving my vote to- I wanted to give you feedback on your Cancer from the Void as such a perfectly revolting, hideous, and seemingly aborted star-spawn would have at least been one out of 6 votes, and there's a possibility that I'm not going to be able to use all my Round 3 votes.

I think that if you worked on first impressions, possibly finding someone willing to be a guinea pig / trial audience that would be able to honestly tell you what kind of overall unifying opinion the submission leaves with them after they've read it completely once.

With limits on how many words can be used changing from round to round in this competition (and from what I've heard the bulk of writing assignments and freelance gigs all come with some type of restriction which is probably why Paizo does it), it would strengthen your future chances at achieving whatever your goals are with writing if you could find the silver lining in the cloud and put that out front where that is the first thing that the reader's eye hits. Starting your third round submission off with the name of the plague of the twentieth century (to paraphrase Sean Connery) may not have been the way to go.

So as I said, something I've discovered as far as my reaction to your submissions, is that first impressions aren't everything. I would have left well enough alone and posted about another contestant's monster at this point if I thought that me not taking a liking to any of your submissions at first glance was a coincidence. I hope that I've helped you in any way, shape or form by sharing this feedback with you, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

Thank you for the posting, Ian!

I will be going more into the detail of the process I went through. Needless to say, without having someone handy to vette submissions ahead of time, I'm flying by seat of the pants...I envy Neil with his support structure!

As for the name Cancer...very few people are aware of just how old the term is. The 'cancer' has long meant any form of mysterious death that people couldn't figure out the real cause of...it wasn't until the 1800's that they could actually diagnose its existence, if not its cause. And Cancer the Crab is one of the Zodiac!

I am also aware of what cancer can do to people. Even if the high profile media cases weren't enough, I had my neighbor three doors down growing up die from lung cancer; the father of my older sister's best friend was diagnosed and put in the ground a month later; my dad's brother got esophagal cancer and went from a 6'2 270 pound bull of a man to under 100 lbs by the time he died. A good, good man, a client of mine at the firm I work got diagnosed with stage 4 the day after Labor Day, and they buried him on Thanksgiving.

I'm very aware of what cancer is and can do, just as I've seen the ravaging effects of Alzheimer's first hand on friends and family. The word conjured up images of physical corruption that is almost impossible to fight.

And my inspiration was right here:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6068/528.full

that, my friends, is the picture of a death cell receptor in a cancer cell. Add more tentacles in all directions, and that is my monster.

What ELSE could I call it?

==Bob Drouin

Legendary Games, Necromancer Games

Bob, there were things about your monster I liked. In fact, though I thought the Lovecraft angle was a bit tired, I did say I liked your monster more than many of the other HPL-inspired creatures out there. I also like the idea of the cillia attack. Why don't you discuss for me (1) why you chose to do the cillia attack how you did it--each round, all creatures within reach, auto-hit, save for reduction. Did you model or scale that against any other monster's abilities? I'm not aware of any other CR 7 monster with such an ability, but perhaps I am missing something. (2) why you inserted the "cancer is an ooze" when oozes are specifically forbidden this round. (3) why you thought, as you have stated several times, that doing an "alien horror from the void" is the "big swing" you have mentioned. I really dont see that in this, so I am wondering why you feel so strongly that this is a big risk or is not playing it safe. I thought that was one of this monster's biggest problems--it really was a safe, tried and true monster design idea. You weren't giving us anything new. Neil, Ryan and I all felt this way.

Those were, to me, the biggest issues with your submission. Other judges' mileage may vary, but those were mine.

As an aside, I didnt have a problem, nor did I expect readers to have a problem, with the name--yet clearly some had a strong reaction to the word "cancer." I have to admit those comments were somewhat surprising to me. Personally, I don't think there is anything you can do about that and I don't think you can worry about that.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

Sure, Clark! I was going to go into more detail, and I would love more feedback...and corrections, if my math is off.

1) Well, if you look, I completely removed the melee/attack line on the template, because the monster doesn't have one. It has what basically amounts to a 6d6, 15' radius AoE, save for no damage, with a potential kicker effect.

at 7th level, a level 8 wizard with a 1/day lesser Rod of Quicken can hit the party for 8d6 from 400' away, then, if they win initiative, drop 2 x 8d6 fireballs on them.

And you still take half damage if you save. Unless you have Evasion.

I wanted a monster who could do good, consistent damage, but could NOT one shot kill, on a crit or otherwise. Compare to a hill giant with a battleaxe...one Power Attack crit, and smush, dead level 7 character. Getting Surprise and then a first attack on a mage could also level a character.

The Cancer cannot do that.

Furthermore, the daze-lock means that a normal monster couldn't attack. Because this is an AoE effect, you still have to make that save for no damage, even if the monster couldn't move! You could daze-lock and try to range attack it down...but that's no different then Black Tentacling or Holding something and shooting it down. It still spends resources.

The average damage I originally put at 1/2 Hit Dice + Con modifier, so 5d6+5. That worked out exactly to the average damage of a monster of that level.

Like any AoE attack, you don't stay in the area of the AoE. You split up. The mage fireballing you from way over there isn't going to be allowed to hit all of you.

The average level 7 character with a poor Reflex save should have about a +6 to their save, so saving on a 13+...40%, for NO damage. A level 7 with a Good Reflex save is going to be at a +9. If they have a 20 Dex, +12 or better (rogues).

a level 7 wizard with a 14 Con and FC/hit points is going to have about 49 hit points. that means he could stand directly under the creature and it should take 4 rounds to kill him, since he's going to save for no effect for 2/5 rounds.

Likewise, he'll make the save against the fort damage 2/5 rounds, his fort save should be about +6 or higher.

Now a fighter-type should just go in there and two hand whack on it, since his shield does little good. He'll take the damage, but he's got probably 55% chance to make the fort save, higher if buffed, and should also last an average of 4 rounds.

Key here, the Cancer does NOT get Attacks of Opportunity. No defensive AoE's against grappling, spellcasters, anything. It has no ways of doing extra damage...it can't crit, can't AoO...it can move over on top of something and try to reduce to a stinking mass of squirming tumors and wriggling postules which it happily slurps up.

Reflex saves aren't penalized by being surprised...and this thing, with two auras screaming about how unnatural is, can't surprise anything.

I decided to use a Reflex save targeting mechanism instead of multiple touch attacks, because I didn't like the idea of runaway crits, and a +10 touch attack would like hit on a 4+ for most level 7 characters...meaning it was far more lethal if all directed at any one character, especially melee types. By moving the 'target number' to a reflex save, I effectively gave everyone about +4 AC, removed crit hits and one-round kills, and favored classes with high dex.

The idea that this could be used to 'smite' everyone posited by the judges boggled my mind. As soon as it became plain what was going on, the party would split up, and do a combination of ranged and melee attacks to take it down, with the tough and agile hacking it apart while the mage tried ranged attacks and the cleric blew his channelled healing in a race to keep the melee types up, and healing the aberration while freezing it in place at the same time!

Thus, using party resources!

I tacked the Dodge bonus as an add-on, since a Dodge bonus is nothing more then a Dex bonus in disguise. Furthermore, since it hit stuff 'entering its area of effect', that was basically a movement-based AoO, and MOBILITY would apply. A spring attacker would have an excellent chance of being completely immune to the thing during an attack...which is why following step is in there, to hit those who pause just outside its reach.

Furthermore, the 'each round remains' meant that if you entered the thing's area on your turn, you didn't take extra damage on ITS turn...you took it on the beginning of your turn, if you were still underneath it.

Thus, unless your DM did something really metagamey, like running over you, past, and turning around to do it again (Int 6, nah), you were absolutely limited to being faced with a fireball with a DC 19 save for no damage every round. And if your party stayed a decent distance apart, only one of them was in any danger...or anyone swarming it in melee.

===========
Tying into this was the movement rate of 20'. I was mind-boggled that people thought it was too slow. I honestly thought it might be too fast.

Why? Because this thing is a moving AoE. It doesn't take standard actions. It just double moves all the time, or Runs.

Thus, it moves 40' every round, or 80' if it's got a straight line to 'charge'. Slow? It's faster then most of the party! (at least, without Haste)

A normal character is not going to be able to 'kite' it without having a move higher then 40'. If it's in a straight line, they'll need a move of 80'+ to avoid it from round to round.

So this was my part 1 and 2 of Swing for the Fences. Reducing the melee attack to a controlled Area of Effect, making something slow still potent and dangerous.

==Bob Drouin

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

2) This monster is considered an ooze for all magical effects that do not come from another Aberration.

Well, its a floating mass of cancerous tissue...a big floating thing of tentacles and corrupted meat. It's definitely ooze-like from that stand point.

I wanted a creature that could not be flesh-warped, and something with a cancerous brain hailing from the stars would have as warped a mindset as any undead thing.

Except, you know, to other Aberrations, which understand these things perfectly well, being every bit as unnatural as they are.

THe example someone used of a Scorching Ray not critting was a horrid example...Rays crit because they are attack rolls, not because they are spells. So, yes, you could still crit with a Scorching Ray. Couldn't reply to that, either.

Furthermore, it was only an ooze to magic, which I pictured as it 'eating' some of the magic that was supposed to effect it. A normal character had no problem critting it with a greatsword or rapier.

(As a side note, All-Around Vision means 'no flanking this thing', why would it be put under senses instead of special defenses?)

What this meant is a) controlling aberrations would have little problem taking control of the Purple Heralds and enslaving them to their will, torturing them if need be, and b) flumphs could rip on these bastards. The Cancers are basically frightened of most other aberrations.

Everybody else gets to hack and fry the things. It rewards a blaster build and direct damage, or supporting the rest of the party. Battlefield control, enslavement spells, and flesh to stoning, not so much.

What it was NOT was a pure ooze. Couldn't flow through places. No defense against weapon blows. You could actually INTIMIDATE it! The ooze-like traits meant you could not morph or charm it...you had to hack it apart. And it didn't divide in two and attack you with smaller peices.

And it went perfectly with the flavor.

=======
So that was swing for the fence #3. Major fluff tie-in. Was hoping people would see the fluff aspect of it. That didn't work, either! :P

==Bob Drouin

Star Voter Season 6

Ok, going back over my review of this guy, I realize I was a lot harsher than I should have been. I like the monster conceptually. I just think mechanically it needed work. It has a bunch of wierd exceptions and quirks that don't really add much and it could do without. It looks like you overthought it and it suffered for it. But overall, you got a monster with the visuals and theme you were going for. The image you linked to is exactly what I saw in my head from the description. With a revision, I would like this guy a lot.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

3) Why alien horror from the void was a big swing.

The Alien Horror wasn't a big swing at all. It was the mechanics that were the big swing.

Basically, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING monster-wise is tired hash by now. You got plant monster and wicked fey and undead killers and yawnyawnyawn. Everything is a trope by now.

It's how you flavor each trope.

4th mechanic: Allergic to non-magical cold iron.

Paizo, like 3.5 before it, has an aversion to the idea that being 'non-magical' is a strength, that, for instance, non-casters should be more resistant to magic then casters are.

This is very odd, especially when dealing with cold iron, the anti-magic special metal. Enchanting common steel gives it the anti-magic power of cold iron at +3. That just strikes me as slightly wrong.

So, I gave it DR 5/-, and taking additional damage from non-magical cold iron.

That means that a non-magical cold iron masterwork weapon is +1/+5 against this critter. Because this additional damage is multiplied on a crit, it is actually MORE potent then DR/COld iron, which can be bypassed by +3 OR Cold iron. By making it additional damage, I was giving PC's and NPC's the equivalent of a +2 weapon (using Power Attack, a two handed PA for -1/+3 is +1/+5) against these creatures...with a +5 kicker if they crit.

Mages are rewarded if they prepare for monsters and encounters. The preparation for this monster is masterwork cold iron weapons and not magic ones...which makes it easier to justify NPC's taking these things down.

DR 5/- is barely a bump for any power attacker at this level, it just slows down the attrition slightly...and particularly archery. THe Cancer always has the option of breaking combat with a double move, finding cover, and regaining hit points if harassed from all sides by cold iron that actually causes its flesh to blacken and burn it...doing extra damage, not just bypassing a defense.

Thematically, closer to what silver is described to do to lycanthropes, actually burning them, not just rendering them as vulnerable as normal things. The 'allergy' conveyed the flavor much better, with a higher payoff.

And (crash) (burn). Heh!

==Bob Drouin

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

Caineach wrote:

Ok, going back over my review of this guy, I realize I was a lot harsher than I should have been. I like the monster conceptually. I just think mechanically it needed work. It has a bunch of wierd exceptions and quirks that don't really add much and it could do without. It looks like you overthought it and it suffered for it. But overall, you got a monster with the visuals and theme you were going for. The image you linked to is exactly what I saw in my head from the description. With a revision, I would like this guy a lot.

EXACTLY.

I swung hard...intro'd new mechanics, new monster and lots of subtle interactions were involved in that.

BOOM. Nobody really had the time to think it all through, see what was actually going on. It crashed and burned, and my inability to explain it was too frustrating. Without an explanation, I was doomed, and with even a hint at one, to look a little deeper, I got DQ'd. The stress was too much. Meh.

==========================

The idea of a monster is to consume party resources, reward preparation, and still be something of a challenge and a danger.

This thing is going to do damage to you. It can fly, so it can reach you. SPellcasters always have to cast defensively around it. It doesn't need a Perception score...it has Blindsight. Blindsight means it sees things around it without needing a Perception check...I wondered how one of the JUDGES missed that. It has a high Fly skill because hovering is a DC 15 check you can't take 10 on in combat...and if it falls to the ground, it's prone, because it doesn't have a ground move. So it's a very steady, very precise flier.

You have to hack it apart. If you've got a positive energy channeller, the thing erupts in blossoms of mutating flesh as you 'heal' it and your friends, hoping they can do more damage to it then they are taking.

If you have non-magical cold iron weapons, you are rewarded by being able to do extra monstrous crits on it. If you don't, the DR isn't that substantial.

What it does not do is one or two round kills, unless you are VERY weak. If you are in the danger zone, you can run far and fast and it can't catch you.

==Bob Drouin

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

3) Horror from the VOid fluff.

When I decided on using a space-born aberration, it was for several reasons.

1) It's a floating mass of cancer. Of COURSE it's an aberration.

2) Where's it from? You got ancient terror of the past (no), spawn of dead gods (nah), mutated thing from monstrous experiments (totally random and overdone, might as well call it a chimera), or something from outer space. If you try to make it a thing bubbled together from those who died of mass diseases, you've got undead, some form of ghoul, not an aberration.

o.0

3) Environment. Any but aquatic. It can't move in water because it's an unaerodynamic lump of flesh, and maybe it drowns as it babbles and whispers in Aklo. Whatever, no aquatic. Purple meteors hitting the ocean instead of the land saves flumphs a lot of effort. The cancers should aim better.

By making it come from space, you can justify it being ANYWHERE on the surface. So, that satisfies the random encounter for any DM needing it. Meteors coming down are cool.

Furthermore, the idea of 'meteor shower' bringing down a plague of tentacled, flesh-warping monsters that are ripping apart the landscape hunting the sweet flesh that is always running screaming from them was too much to resist. Grells got nothing on these guys.

And the 'purple trail' they leave is something the flumphs and druidic stargazers are always watching for, and when they see that particular shade they grab their masterwork cold iron and go swarming to the attack before the cancer decimates the environment. Major fluff tie-in with two possible links to power groups.

SUBTERRANEAN environment meant you had enslaved Cancers...there's another master Aberration around forcing them into service, listening the magical lore their high Spellcraft score is letting them blabber stupidly about, unable to help themselves or defy their new masters. What terrible secrets might a void-dweller know that they could bend to their own uses?

So, another fluff tie-in.

Space-born just worked too well from all angles.

I noted elsewhere that I pictured there were eight or nine Heralds from the Dark Tapestry, and those are the primary things the flumphs are watching for from the stars. The Second Darkness had the Green Heralds, coming out of their meteors and turning living things into zombies. here come the Purple Heralds, turning things into squirming warpflesh, and, if they fail to eat you, the pulsing remains of you mix together with your friends and family and form ever-hungry gibbering mouthers...

So, what would the other Heralds be? A DM could have all kinds of fun. Are the Mi-Go a Herald? The Grell?

Furthermore, is color related to power? If so, how dangerous are the Black Heralds? The White Heralds?

:)

===Bob Drouin

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7 aka Aelryinth

I'd also like to note, I could have used 'undead traits' for the Cancer instead of ooze traits, and gotten roughly the same effect...except ooze fits the monster far more then undead does.

==Bob Drouin

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