@Godsdog: Keep in mind a Fighter without bonus feats which is a class ability in the same line as a Magi's spells, spell combat, and spellstrike is also class ability.
A level 2 fighter without 2 extra feats is a Warrior (NPC class) with a +1 will save against fear effects from bravery.
Further if you want to make the point that a fighter is dependent on feat selection then a Magi is just as dependent on spell selection. If fighter chooses to take suboptimal feats a Magi can in turn prepare or only have in his spellbook things like (Jump, Feather Fall, Floating Disk, Illusion of Calm) making spell-strike/spell combat moot without any touch spells and crashing the Magi's own DPR in a similar manner.
There have already been few examples to how another Martial Class can out DPR a Magi. Along with general point that casters expend finite resources per day while a Fighter is still always a fighter.
If you want to get real down and dirty most casters can perform a quick SoD or SoS spell and end any potential fight from the get go and nobody's claiming foul on their behalf. Sleep and Color spray comes to mind.
Spellstrike/Spellcombat is about on par with a monks flurry of blows, TWF with either a fighter or rogue, or a raging THF barbarian.
Bumpy the Orc appears, and he wants revenge! He stands 30 feet from Melvin, and calls him a sissy. Round 1: Melvin casts Shocking Grasp, which is a touch spell, and on the magus spell list. (A, B, and C fulfilled!). Melvin then moves 30 feet to get adjacent to Bumpy. Now, Melvin has a free attack as a result of casting the spell[1a]. He has two options: He can make a melee touch attack against Bumpy's Touch AC. This is more likely to hit, but all it will do it Zap Bumpy, and it will only critically hit if Melvin rolls a 20. His other option is to use Spellstrike to deliver that touch with his sword. That's what he's going to do! He rolls his attack: a d20, and adds 1 because Melvin has 12 Strength, adds another 1 because he has +1 BAB. His result is 17, quite good. Clunky has an AC of 14, so Melvin hits. Melvin now deals weapon damage (1d8+1) and discharges Shocking Grasp, Zap!
Hold on! Who is Melvin fighting again? :P
Hmm, explain to me how a 2nd level fighter or barbarian can get 3 attacks and do 6-24 points of damage in one round? That's IF he doesn't score a crit and with no other Feats to assist in the attacks. That stat also uses the above example of a Magus with a 12 Str. Not to mention if the enemy is wearing metal armor, the Magus using Shocking Grasp will be +3 to hit (which gives him a +1 after the -2 for Spell Combat). Oh, and then there is that whole magic pool to make the weapon magical thing. lol
I'm thinking of adjusting this where there is no additional melee attack with the weapon. Seems powerful enough to use Spellstrike as a standard action and still be able to move. That, or creating an evil NPC Magus and see how the party enjoys being cut down by their own exploit. >8) Bwahahaha...
Thanks for the response. My buddy playing the Magus in my group will be very pleased.
Easy. A 2nd level fighter with 16 strength and dexterity could pull this off with a composite longbow (+3 strength bonus), Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot.
That's 2d8+8 damage each round (10-24 damage, avg 17) with two attacks at -1 to hit each (-2 for rapid shot, +1 for point blank shot).
The fighter could potentially have a +6 to hit (+2 BAB, +3 Dex, +1 mwk, +1 Point Blank Shot, +1 Weapon Focus, -2 Rapid Shot) with each attack!
Said fighter isn't even putting himself in harms way like the cleave fighter or the magus.
Unlike the magus, my fighter can keep up this damage output all day (or until he runs our of his incredibly cheap arrows).
Ok ok, but doesn't the Magus also have a spell point pool that he can use to enchant his weapon and/or reclaim used spells? That has also been overlooked. You all make decent points, but again, this ability to make 2 melee attacks with teh SAME HAND seems to fly counter to the rest of the rules. The Magus is a fighter/mage and should not be able to out attack a fighter. Having the Spellstrike/Spell Combat abilities as I think they work makes for a great balance, giving him that extra melee attack puts him over the top imo. Still not as bad as a Druid with a leopard pet...lol Thanks guys, have a great weekend!
Ravingdork, your example reminds me SO much of my friend playing the Magus and his ability to min/max! LOL Thanks for the chuckle man!
No one is playing a fighter in my campaign, but I have read everything that has been posted.
It's the Paladin...lol
If the Paladin is complaining about the Magus overshadowing him, he obviously picked the wrong feats. The paladin in our party consistently overshadows MY magus.
Paladin (level 4) uses Power Attack every round with GS - 2d6+13 (6 from str, 6 from PA, 1 from magic).
Thats an average of 20 damage on every hit. And then he cleaves. But, for the sake of argument lets consider cleave to be his "spike" damage, so 40/round. But he's still not in ideal circumstances - Smite Evil will give him paladin level damage - so 44 on average (or 48 on undead/evil outsiders).
Magus, level 4. Has Shocking Grasp pre-cast. Decides to use SpellCombat.. First attack hits for 1d8+6(dervish dancer, 4 from dex, 2 from magic weapon) PLUS 4d6... so Average of 14+14 = 28 on the first hit. He casts shocking grasp as part of spell combat, and uses spell strike to make it a weapon attack instead of touch, doing another 28 damage. So ideal circumstances, Magus of level 4 can do 56/round...... for two rounds. And then he is out of 1st level spells.
Paladin: 44 damage/round. Magus: 56 damage/round. But who can sustain that high damage? The paladin. So unless you're doing 15 minute workdays, the Paladin will on average always do more damage (and if you're doing 15 minute workdays thats your failure as a GM to challenge your party and of course casters will always be the most powerful).
Magus, level 4. Has Shocking Grasp pre-cast. Decides to use SpellCombat.. First attack hits for 1d8+6(dervish dancer, 4 from dex, 2 from magic weapon) PLUS 4d6... so Average of 14+14 = 28 on the first hit. He casts shocking grasp as part of spell combat, and uses spell strike to make it a weapon attack instead of touch, doing another 28 damage. So ideal circumstances, Magus of level 4 can do 56/round...... for two rounds. And then he is out of 1st level spells.
Dervish dancer means scimitar so it's not d8, but rather d6 base damage.
-James
Sorry, should have mentioned that my DM allowed Dervish Dance with Katana (for flavour, and scimitar is boring). But yes, should have also mentioned that would either need a round in between or his spike damage drops by 14 in the next round.
In the end, the Paladin still comes out stronger.
Wow I was underestimating the magus, it is much better then I had thought.
Dotting. Just had a fighter 1 go magus 1, and while I'm pretty sure I get the RAW it will behoove me to read through the OP.
First off, thank you so much for the guide on touch spells. And now let me continue to derail it with Magus discussions. (Oh, and Grick, I can't remember the last time someone's writing style made me giggle that much. Thanks.)
In my 3.5 campaigns, I'd been playing a Duskblade since the Player's Handbook 2 came out, and when Pathfinder's Ultimate Magic came out, I was stoked.
To anyone whining about magus overpoweredness, let me rehash a few things:
1) Limited. Spells. Per. Day. Like every spellcaster (except paladin and ranger), the Magus is really only super-awesome as long as he has spells left. Once he runs out of spells, he's a guy with a decent weapon... but only average BAB and without the fighter's bucket of feats. Combat-wise, a magus without spells is about as good as a rogue without sneak-attack. Think about that. So, yes, the magus is amazing as long as he can rest between every fight. But if there are multiple fights per day, as there should be with a good GM, then the fighter begins to look much cooler. Hey, he never runs out of swings per day.
2) Average BAB, and poor hit chance. This was my biggest shock in switching from Duskblade to Magus, as the Duskblade had good BAB. Remember, at level 1, the magus is already at a -1 attack compared to a fighter, and that goes up to -5 attack at level 20. Combined with the automatic -2 for Spell combat, not even including the optional penalty for bonus on Concentration, and you'll see that the Magus is lucky to hit anything. Yes, with an arcana, they can spend an arcane point to give themselves their Int bonus to all attacks that round, but that's yet another rather small resource pool, and the bonus only lasts for 1 round.
Basically, the magus is a hybrid of fighter and wizard: He can melee attack decently, he can cast fun spells both in and out of combat, he can get a familiar, but he can't cast spells as well as a wizard or hit as well in melee as a fighter.
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I realise there are now a number of classes that can do a lot of damage if optimised and in the correct condition, but the magus in my recent experience seems a little over the top.
In our current Kingmaker campaign, we have a 5th level Magus. He is at "the sweet spot" for shocking grasp as it maxes out at 5d6. Feats are combat casting, extra arcane pool and weapon focus scimitar.
There is no need to use Spell combat as normally he only casts Shocking Grasp. He has 5 first level spells, with spell recall he has up to 8 more (+4 int, 2 for level, 2 for feat).
Normally he uses some of the arcane pool for weapon enhancement. He has a +1 scimitar which becomes keen and flaming with the +2 enhancement.
This means that most of the time, he is going into combat with +7 to hit, not the highest i grant you, but if he hits he rolls 5d6 electricity, 1d6 fire and 1d6+3 weapon damage (27 damage on average). Due to the relatively low bonus to hit he crits fairly frequently, as a low die roll misses completely, saving the charge for the next attack. A roll of 15 or more is a critical threat (slightly better than 1 in 4). When the crit goes off thats 14d6+6 damage (average 55 damage).
Assuming he only allocates half his spells to shocking grasp and only has half of his arcane pool for spell recall, this still gives him this capability 6 or 7 times per day. The spell is not discharged if he misses, so it is fairly guaranteed damage.
He does have lower hits than most, being an elf (nasty con hit...) but does well for utility as he has a number of skills, and used traits to get class skills in perception and stealth.
What are your experiences at higher levels? Is this just a spike? we've yet to see the potentially rule stretching use of arcane mark.
The fighter using a large dwarven waraxe by comparison does +10 to hit for 2d8+14 damage (21 average, crit only on a 20 for average 63). Thats using furious focus so no penalty for power attack at this level.
The druid in animal form does 2 claws for +9 to hit (20 strength, human) 1d3+6 damage and a bite for 1d6+6, plus his pets attacks which are also pretty good for another 2 claws at 1d6+2 and a bite for 1d4+2 at +5 to hit. Animal form is for 5 hours per day, at which time his ac is pretty poor. Assuming all attacks hit (very unlikely) thats 3d6+2d3+1d4+24 for an average of 41 damage.
So as I say, the Magus isn't super powerful, BUT with spell recall, he has as much blast as a sorcerer, can learn a variety of spells like a wizard, has a better ac than most arcane casters, and can frequently out damage the fighter. He can have the benefit of a +2 weapon (+3 if its already +1) which is far superior to the paladins divine bond and ensures that at this level he can have a keen weapon whatever he happens to be using. He gains bonus feats which can be taken from combat feats, placing him only slightly behind the ranger and ahead of the paladin in feats, and can take fighter only feats if they fall below half his level once he reaches 10th level, which is better than the ranger or paladin. Eventually he can wear heavy armour and cast spells. He can stealth better than the rogue by turning invisible, and has the utility in his spells to deal with multiple opponents, having a number of area effect spells. Thats without even considering Magus Arcana.
My experience has been they are a very good class, easily considered over powered.
Nitpick:
When the crit goes off thats 14d6+6 damage (average 55 damage).
Flaming doesn't multiply on a crit the damage should be 13d6+3 average 51.
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I admit there may be a few errors in my assessment, its not a critical essay on the Magus, and I know there was a good period of play test, which should eliminate inbalance.
I came accross the thread while looking to see if others had experienced a feeling that the magus were on the top edge of the power scale, so I apologise for straying off topic.
To James, I agree the magus burns spells to keep damage with the two handed weapon fighter. The thing is they are the highest damage dealers in the game and the magus can keep up with them for a decent amount of time with spell recall.
They can also fight pretty well without that, unlike other spell users of a similar nature such as the bard. They have access to bonus weapon feats, martial weapons and heavy armour in the long run.
They can also cast utility spells. The two handed weapon fighter does not have the option of turning invisible, flying or fireballing his opponents, with the same damage capacity as a wizard or sorcerer.
The magus can access fireball at level 7, one level after the sorcerer. The sorcerer can fire 5 fireballs off in a day (assuming a decent cha), the magus, should he choose to can fire off 4 by burning his arcane pool (6 points assumes the same +3 int stat). The sorcerer has access to 2 spells full stop. The magus can memorise two different 3rd level spells each day if he has them in his book, and then recall them.
As for Arcane Mark discussion, again apologies if this has been debated in depth elsewhere, but it doesn't even appear to be an attack spell.
"This spell allows you to inscribe your personal rune or mark, which can consist of no more than six characters."
There is no touch attack involved, you are writing your signature. I feel that this is a real stretch of the RAW.
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Can someone clear up the 'Arcana Mark' issue for me?
Grick originally says
'You may get an extra attack when using Spell Combat over making a regular full-attack, but ONLY if the spell you cast has an attack roll.'
Which disallows Arcane Mark.
Arcane Mark also has a range of touch, which is allowed via Spellstrike.
A Magus has an infinite supply of 'Arcane Mark', so technically he should be hitting twice every round.
Can someone break it down for my little brain?
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@Svipdag:
Downsides to the Magus:
-Spell resistance
-Elemental resistance
-A 3/4th BAB class
-Prepared Caster
-Below Average CMD for a melee class
-Limited Spell List
-Partial Caster
They're a good Gish class and considerably powerful in general, but they're not broken good. A lot of the same ire that's directed at the Magus can easily be directed towards a properly built druid.
Once they run out of spells they're effectively worse than a fighter and there are considerably many ways to leverage their weakness against them. I can elaborate further if you wish.
@Iced2k:
It's a flawed argument that some people propagate as the Magi using arcane mark with spellcombat/spellstrike is cheesy. To that end it probably is a little cheesy. It is however, not overpowered or outside the rules. The latter often argued against to to impose the house rule of saying it doesn't work due to a belief in the former.
Any spell that requires creature/object touched is subject to an attack roll if the creature/object touched doesn't wish to receive the spell (usually in combat). It doesn't matter what the spell is it's even done in situations that would benefit the target (Bulls Strength, ect..).
Cure [X] Wounds spells harms undead creatures and requires an attack roll to touch the unwilling target and the spell description doesn't ever state at any point that it requires an attack roll against creatures, yet it does because of the following rule.
Relevant Rules:
"Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject........... You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll."
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack,
Common flawed arguments against the tactic come in the following flavors:
But, It doesn't do any damage.
-Niether does Touch of Fatigue
But, It doesn't require a touch attack in the spells description.
-There are considerable spells that don't require a touch attack in spell description. See Cure [x] wounds, and possibly a few others. Also re-read spellstrike.
But, It has no benefit in combat.
-Irrelevant, and also not true. An opponent that turns invisible or otherwise hide can now be spotted with detect magic. An opponent that wishes to conceal their identity will have that option closed to them. An opponent with Thief scrawled on their forehead is easy to track throughout a town/city. To name a few easy examples.
But, It's totally over powered.
-It usually requires proper positioning or a concentration check with varying chance of failure and imparts a -2 to both attacks. It's no more overpowered than TWF, a Monks Flurry of Blows, or Cleave.
But, It's an exploit they didn't design for it to be used that way.
-They haven't removed it or errata'd it out of existence either. It works as RAW and has a legitimate use. Those who designed the class likely aren't twiddling fools and seeing the words "Range: Touch" and having designed spellstrike it's unlikely they wouldn't be aware of it's effects. They put it on the class spell list and to insinuate they weren't aware of it's implications is calling them stupid.
Very clear and well constructed Waltz. Thank you.
All right just read the pbp this character is in. He is in no way op or breaking the game.
Now compare him to the archer or to the cavalier he is no where near their damage output.
Sorry, but I don't think this has been clarified.
Can you spellstrike 2 handed?
The way I read the ability I could see a foe and cast Shocking Grasp.
I could then move up to my speed and take my free attack granted by the spell using spellstrike. Can I 2 hand my weapon?
You'll notice that the spell has absolutely no mention of spellstrike mechanics. Since it's not the spell that specifies that it's crit is due to the weapon crit factor, than it's obvious that spellstrike is not using the normal delivery method for shocking grasp. It's using a weapon attack.
When you find the specific mention of weapon attack mechanics in the spell description, I'll eat my words.
Since there is nothing written in the Spell Strike rules that changes the spell or prevents modifiers like this, it should apply. You will also notice that the spell description itself reads:
When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).
No mention of it requiring a touch attack; it modifies general attack rolls.
There's no need to mention such. When the spell was written into the rulesset and copied/pasted into Pathfinder, touch attack was the only standard way to deliver the spell. And barring feats and class choices, it still is by default. If you're a single class wizard/sorcerer and don't have a trait/feat/magic item that changes it. the only way you can use the spell is by melee touch attack. The differing behavior for a magus is totally dependent on mechanics outside of the spell description... in this case, Spellstrike. Spellstrike has no mention of any attack affinities based on the shocking grasp/metal armor intersection.
Since the Spell Strike ability was introduced after the spell, and the spell is in fact one of the few spells a starting magus can use with the ability, I really think they would have mentioned it in the text if it was not supposed to work this way. And I am pretty sure that you can use unarmed strikes or natural attack to deliver touch attacks, so your above statement is obviously false.
But since spellstrike IS NOT a melee touch attack, and since other FAQ answers disallow partial strike mechanics for spellstrike, then any other assumptions regarding melee touch which are not specifically mentioned in the spellstrike mechanics are null and void.
I am sorry, but I never heard of partial strike mechanics and cannot find them in any rule book. And the only FAQ-answer I have found that is somewhat related is this one in regard to moving during Spell Strike:
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell....
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
You will notice that SKR repeatedly says that the ability does not change the rules for using touch spells and is meant to give more options and not take them away. Can you provide a link to an official statement that says otherwise?
Hmm, explain to me how a 2nd level fighter or barbarian can get 3 attacks and do 6-24 points of damage in one round?Yes, the magus can hit twice and shocking grasp.
Even worse, he can completely alpha strike by having Shocking Grasp already cast and held.
Spell Combat, attack, hit discharge. Cast, hit discharge. Two sword hits, two shocking grasps, one round.
Lets put this in perspective.
Lets say ideal conditions, he pre-casts Shocking Grasp. Round one he gets to full attack, uses spell combat, and hits, discharges, then casts again, makes his concentration check, hits and discharges. 2d8+4 +4d6 = Average 27 damage.
Short Sword fighter attacks, hits with both, 2d6+12 = Average 19 damage.
Falchion Barbarian attacks, dealing 2d4+12 = Average 17 damage. (or 22 with Vital Strike)
Round two: Magus is out of spells. He uses Arcane Mark to keep using Spell Combat. Again, he somehow manages to hit the abysmal AC of the target. 2d8+4 = Average 13 damage.
Fighter and Barbarian do the same thing.
Damage totals:
Magus - 40
Fighter - 38
Barbarian - 26 (Or 44 if he uses Vital Strike)If this fight goes more than 2 rounds, they outdamage the magus. And there's still 3+ more fights to go before the end of the day.
The pile of dice looks impressive, but who cares if he can blow away a goblin in one round by spending all of his resources? There's six more coming at him, and oh god they have fire.
I'm thinking of adjusting this where there is no additional melee attack with the weapon. Seems powerful enough to use Spellstrike as a standard action and still be able to move.Before you cripple the class, try playing with one, in a group with other semi-competent damage characters. You'll probably see that while the magus has pretty good burst damage, that's just about it.
I'm kind of a novice here - but it seems to me if a level 3 Magus casts Frostbite - which deals non-lethal damage, and he can do damage every "round per level" - then once he casts the spell, he can use the spell for a second attack (or free touch attack) - for three more rounds, or more - providing he doesn't burn the spell off.
In other words - the Magus casts the spell, he uses it - and it would last 3 rounds, until he burns it off. Now he can keep striking an enemy with standard attacks - and on top of it - he can do an extra attack each round as a touch spell.
This means that (on round 1) he does his standard attack, plus a second attack augmented by the spell.
Both hit - so he does it again for round 2, and again for round 3.
Then, on round 4 he uses spell combat to cast the same spell again - and casts it again - and has it available for another 3 more rounds.
And on level 3 he can do this multiple times. Am I reading that correctly? Please let me know if there is an error. Thank you!
You're reading it wrong. You get A (as in one) free touch attack as part of castimg the spell.
However if it lasts rds per level you can get as many attacks as your BAB allows + the free attack in the round you cast.
Eg you have bab 12/7
Rd 1 Spell combat/spellstrike full attack. Cast spell and make free spellstrike, then your 2 normal attacks (which also carry the spell).
Subsequent rounds- make 2 normal attacks (each carrying the spell)
Thank you OH SO MUCH for posting this.
Dot. Nice write-up Grick
This is indeed most helpful! Thank you!
And a few technical questions on the game mechanics.
Question 1:
"A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks. "
What happens if a level 16 Magus Quickens a Shocking grasp, uses is free touch attack, delivers his 3 attacks (12/7/2), then casts a 2nd Shocking grasp in 1 turn, does he get a 2nd free touch attack? (5 attacks total?)
Yes, this is no different than a wizard or sorcerer casting a quickened shocking grasp followed by a normal shocking grasp.
Cast a touch spell (under any circumstances) and you get a free touch attack in the round that you cast it. A Magus doing this using spellstrike could get two free melee attacks instead of two free touch attacks.
If a Magus uses "Gloves, Spellstrike" (UE) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glov es-spellstrike?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F) to deliver Chain Lightning as a touch.
"The altered spell only affects the creature attacked (any other targets normally allowed by the spell are lost)"
or Design a spell (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/magic/designingSpells.htm l) to make a Chain Lightning spell with a range of touch. "Chain Lightning Touch?"
The Chain Lightning technically only targets one person, AND THEN discharges to another target. So the question is in this case, does it only hit one target, or does it target one creature, and then as a delayed effect of the spell, hit multiple targets?
Chain lightning specifies "Targets one primary target, plus one secondary target/level (each of which must be within 30 ft. of the primary target)"
You choose the targets at the time of casting the spell. Using the spellstrike gloves you lose the option of adding additional targets.
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I play a Magus in PFS, and I can tell you first hand that there are many, many PFS-legal builds that are far more broken than the magus. Yes, the magus can look flashy for a couple of battles, but the limited resources and accuracy problems plague a magus's average DPR.
If you really want to look something that's OP or broken, consider then 18/18/14/7/7/7 fighter archer with an appropriate strength bow. They can just stand there and frag encounter after encounter. Add snap shot for extra lulz so basing them doesn't even matter.
Shall I even get into how stupidly good druid ACs are or summoner eidolons? No, I think the magus is, all in all, a very fun, different class, but the magus doesn't sniff OP. In fact, they are quite fair, I think.