First, Jade Regent #4 comes out on Nov 9th and Jade Regent #5 comes out on Jan 20th. No big deal. Sometimes bad things happen.
Now, Skulls and Shackles #1 doesn't come out until late April. But... no one has said why.
I'm just wondering what's going on with the APs. I used to be able to expect a book every month-- sometimes a few weeks late, maybe earlier than I thought, but now it feels like the entire winter is about to pass by with just one book to show for it. Jade Regent #6 is slated for "mid-February," which is about 6 days away, but I don't know if it's going to actually even come out then. The product descriptions for Jade Regent #5 and #6 still haven't even been updated to the crisp, bullet-points style of all of the other Adventure Path product entries. It feels like... something is off.
It feels like the AP line is about to abruptly end. Thanks guys, it's been a fun ride, goodnight! But I know it's the most important thing over at Paizo, it makes the most income. It can't just end. But it still feels like something is going wrong. Well, thanks to the messageboards and the active developer presence on them, I can just freely ask... So what's with the delays? What's going on?
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If it helps, on January 12th in this thread James Jacobs stated that there would be no subsystems for future APs, which you could infer to mean there are future APs.
Granted, if there are no future APs, there wouldn't be any sub systems either...
I want to qualify that I'm not mad (see: the George R. R. Martin is not your b#+@$ rant) but I am just... worried. It's startling.
From my perspective of "absolutely no information," I'd guess there is trouble with their printer. The last news on the subject I saw was a Chinese holiday delaying things, though that was some time ago. If their printer got backlogged with other work, it might have delayed Paizo's products. If it was bad enough to switch printers or something, that would slow everything down even more.
It isn't strictly an AP problem, though. Looking at the product schedule, everything is delayed to the same vague release dates. So while worrisome speculation is still allowed, no need for worrisome speculation on the AP line alone.
Don't forget that Paizo's home base of Seattle was basically Closed for Snow for about a week recently, as well. That can't have done their deadlines any favors.
Creative Director
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The combination of holidays, then a paralyzing week of heavy snow + ice storms + high winds all in a back-to-back row more or less cost Paizo a few weeks of productivity. And then a few weeks later, we got to Chinese New Year, which cost the printing side of the operation a few MORE weeks.
On top of that, getting the nautical combat element of Skull & Shackles to a place where we wanted it also proved a larger task than we'd anticipated—that's one of the main reasons for future Adventure Paths we'll be attempting fewer subsystems and the like starting with Shattered Star. The fact that we'll have a lot of existing subsystems to work with already will help a little, but the APs will be becoming simpler on the average to create (we hope).
And at the same time, a good chunk of our AP work crew (namely, me) is ALSO working frantically to get the Runelords anniversary hardcover ready to go.
In other words, a frustratingly perfect storm of mayhem is the reason why the AP line's schedule got so out of whack. We've taken some significant steps to get it BACK on schedule (it more or less HAS to be on schedule by Gen Con) and, more importantly, to KEEP it on schedule. Some of those steps include us just being smarter about the types of adventure paths we're doing (see above, regarding subsystems and complexity), but others are steps that we can't talk about yet and are more of a "in a short while THAT situation will get better but we just have to power through and GET there."
In any event, being so behind schedule is a bad, bad thing that vexes and frustrates us as much, if not moreso, than folks waiting to get the hands on the next volume, so rest assured we're scrambling to get caught up. And sorry for the delays in the first place, of course! :(
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Creative Director
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And because I wanted to put it in its own reply to make sure folks know:
The AP line is NOT about to come to an end. It's continuing to be one of our most popular lines and one of our biggest moneymakers and critical successes. It's still a flagship line.
It's not going anywhere. It's just taking longer for a couple of months to GET where it's going.
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Thank you for responding. I'm glad everything is going fine and getting better, hopefully, and I can definitely see how basically everything going wrong when you've got an overfull workload can make things really, really awful. And I suppose I can't complain too much about the delay when, in essence, we're getting 2.5 APs this year with the RotRL re-release.
I didn't mean to put out any "OMG PAIZO IS GOING DOWN GUYS" vibes, but after watching Megaman Legends III crash and burn I just felt this eerie similarity. Glad to see that's not the case.
And this is why Paizo is awesome. James Jacobs on the webzone, answering questions, setting things right and walking into the sunset. Like a boss.
that's one of the main reasons for future Adventure Paths we'll be attempting fewer subsystems and the like starting with Shattered Star. The fact that we'll have a lot of existing subsystems to work with already will help a little, but the APs will be becoming simpler on the average to create (we hope).
That's truly terrible news.
The subsystems were what really contributed to making the APs unique.
Ah well. Nothing lasts forever.
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Creative Director
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but others are steps that we can't talk about yet and are more of a "in a short while THAT situation will get better but we just have to power through and GET there."Seems odd that you can't talk about your own processes. I can understand why you would not want to but not being able to seems weird to me, like some kind of external negotiation is not fully in place or something, like a licensing deal or potential new hire.
So when can you talk about these steps? Is it an "after GenCon" thing?
There's a LOT that we don't talk about publicly for various reasons. Mostly to do with the fact that, while Paizo is relatively transparent about its business and techniques and trade secrets... we don't want to give away all of our secrets, nor do we want to announce things before the time is right, nor does everyone at Paizo have equal responsibility or clearance to talk about things before something is announced.
It's not odd at all. It is, in fact, just how businesses are.
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Creative Director
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that's one of the main reasons for future Adventure Paths we'll be attempting fewer subsystems and the like starting with Shattered Star. The fact that we'll have a lot of existing subsystems to work with already will help a little, but the APs will be becoming simpler on the average to create (we hope).That's truly terrible news.
The subsystems were what really contributed to making the APs unique.
Ah well. Nothing lasts forever.
That feels like an overreaction.
Especially when you look at adventures like "The Sixfold Trial." That adventure had no subsystems like what I'm talking about, and I'd argue that it's about the most unique adventure Paizo has ever published.
"No more complex subsystems in player's guides" is not in any way the same as saying, "All adventures will be plotless dungeon crawls," in other words. And yes... I know that's hyperbole/an overreaction... but you made me do it!!! :-P
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Creative Director
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Personally... I LOVE these complex subsystems. And that's why they're in there in the first place... because for the majority of them, I designed them and put in a lot of extra hours of free time to pull them off and set them up. We're doing an increasing amount of stuff each year, though, and as Paizo grows more successful and we start doing things like additional hardcover books or more products of any sort... that free time and energy has to come from somewhere.
Will we EVER do a complex subsystem for an AP again in the future? I can guarantee it. It's just not gonna happen as often, and when it does... it'll be something we plan ahead a lot more.
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Despite all rumblings and grumblings, I'm definitely looking forward to an AP that has its related Player Companion and Campaign Setting books coming out near the front of the AP rather than at the tail end.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Jade Regent #6 is slated for "mid-February," which is about 6 days away, but I don't know if it's going to actually even come out then.
Jade Regent 6 is now in the warehouse, and will begin shipping to subscribers next week.
As for the March releases, I mentioned this in another thread earlier today:
The [Chinese New Year Holiday] has ended now, and we have some more info. We now know that the March products *are* currently slated to reach the US in the very last week of March, but because there's still the possibility that delivery may slide a few days, we're still saying early April for the ship dates. We likely won't have the confidence to shift that for at least a couple more weeks.
To sum up: we *may* be able to ship the March products in the last week of March, but we won't know for sure for a few more weeks. Until then, we're assuming it'll be the first week of April.
As for announcements of new products, there's nothing hinky going on there; it's just not time yet. We should be announcing our August releases in about a month.
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Thanks for the reply. I understand how businesses work (all too well for some) it was just something about the "steps that we can't talk about yet" that seemed odd to me. Usually companies don't make announcements about their internal processes at all and that sounds like what you were talking about, announcing new "steps" in the AP development process. It seemed odd to me that you would be talking about that ever let alone at a specific time in the future is all, but I probably just misunderstood something.
At risk of igniting an edition war, imagine it's 2010 and WotC shouts out "hey you all 4E players, we've just decided we're working on a new edition!". Not the best business move possible :)
On top of that, getting the nautical combat element of Skull & Shackles to a place where we wanted it also proved a larger task than we'd anticipated—
Given how the caravan combat system of Jade Regent didn't work at all, that is probably a good thing.
Some subsystems are needed IMHO, but in another sourcebook and well tested without the rush of getting it into an AP in time. Lack of well tested rules is kinda a WotC way to go.
Kingdom rules are great if they are better tested and streamlined if st all possible. Nautical/Aerial combat is always useful to have. Mass combat, he'll yes! Caravan rules.... Not so much (again IMHO). Taking time to fully test them would make them better received.
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Small subsystems are OK, but campaign-spanning ones seldom work, due to the sheer amount of variables that the players can bring to a table.
The caravan rules in JR were really misplaced. For all the buzz and space taken in player's guide we got:
Adventure 1: Not really much use of them, but that's understandable.
Adventure 2: So yeah you get from point A to B and that's it.
Adventure 3: The Great Caravan Rules Story
Adventure 4: See adventure 2, and even less so.
Adventure 5: "Well this is about time you should forget about the caravan altogether".
"Mini-games" are great if they're about things such as earning respect from hostile locals, surviving stranded on an island, running a play/trial, chasing across rooftops or playing a game of wicked bloodsports, all tied to one specific adventure but open-ended enough for an enterprising GM to use in his own games. In all above examples, those mini-systems worked great.
Despite all rumblings and grumblings, I'm definitely looking forward to an AP that has its related Player Companion and Campaign Setting books coming out near the front of the AP rather than at the tail end.
DITTO!!!! Much more use for players and GMs when they're on the front end.
Same with Legendary Games having their AP supps ready to use at the start of a Path.
As Gary Gygax said in Master of the Game:
'A GMs gotta plan.'
(Okay, I made that up. But the idea is there)
...or playing a game of wicked bloodsports...Blood Pig is still one of my favorite moments from CotCT.
And that's saying a LOT coming from a great AP that I had fun in almost from beginning to end. :)
I missed our session with blood pig. :-(
I kicked some ass at kniveses though!!!
I speak only for myself, of course, but (Gen Con fixed point aside, because that can't change) "When they're ready" is good enough for me. I'd rather wait a while to get a GREAT AP installment than get a decent one on schedule. I fully appreciate that Paizo's current backup sucks for them from a business standpoint, but I think it speaks well of the product that, when it comes, it will have had the necessary time devoted to it to take it from "OK" to "Oh man I gotta run/play this."
Plus, getting two AP installments in the same envelope makes me giddy. I'm selfish that way. :-)
That feels like an overreaction.
Especially when you look at adventures like "The Sixfold Trial." That adventure had no subsystems like what I'm talking about, and I'd argue that it's about the most unique adventure Paizo has ever published.
Well, you'll note that I *did* say "contribute", not "that's the only thing that makes 'em unique!"
(And while I wasn't pleased with CoT, I was very pleased with that adventure.)
"No more complex subsystems in player's guides" is not in any way the same as saying, "All adventures will be plotless dungeon crawls," in other words. And yes... I know that's hyperbole/an overreaction... but you made me do it!!! :-P
And that's what I like to hear!
Just hoping that subsystems don't entirely disappear - sometimes plot just isn't *quite* enough. You don't need to go crazy with them (i.e. in every single adventure of every single AP - Yikes! That's too much, even for me), but they're still important, IMO. They really allow the players to do just a little bit more than the same ol', same ol'.
Best/most useful subsystems (IMO):
- Realm building (Kingmaker). 'Nuff said.
- Reputation/fame (Cot). I modified them to build a reputation system
- Caravans (Jade Regent). Really. They turned out broken, but there was enough potential in them that with modification they're really great, AND useful for other campaigns (such as a "Merchant Princes" type campaign).
Worst subsystems (IMO):
- Caravans. Yes, I know I had it above. While it had great potential, somebody needed to test a couple of combats for it!
- Trust (CC). Not sure how much it added to that adventure, and it looked like whoever implemented it didn't even pay attention to any results!
- Romance (JR). The AP didn't need another subsystem, the assumptions were... weird... and the NPCs weren't used all that much (or all that well) in the entire AP.
None of subsystems were perfect in any way, but most had enough potential to be really useful in the AP they appeared as well as in any other campaign. Realm-building, reputation, even caravans - those are now appearing in virtually every one of our campaigns. I'm glad to hear that you'll still consider them in the future (they don't need to be numerous).
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...or playing a game of wicked bloodsports...Blood Pig is still one of my favorite moments from CotCT.
And that's saying a LOT coming from a great AP that I had fun in almost from beginning to end. :)I missed our session with blood pig. :-(
I kicked some ass at kniveses though!!!
In the game I am running now the party has a good-aligned Druid, and she would not tolerate Blood Pig. When she heard the rules she began casting Call Lightning, and initiatives were rolled.
Small subsystems are OK, but campaign-spanning ones seldom work, due to the sheer amount of variables that the players can bring to a table.
The caravan rules in JR were really misplaced. For all the buzz and space taken in player's guide we got:
Adventure 1: Not really much use of them, but that's understandable.
Adventure 2: So yeah you get from point A to B and that's it.
Adventure 3: The Great Caravan Rules Story
Adventure 4: See adventure 2, and even less so.
Adventure 5: "Well this is about time you should forget about the caravan altogether"."Mini-games" are great if they're about things such as earning respect from hostile locals, surviving stranded on an island, running a play/trial, chasing across rooftops or playing a game of wicked bloodsports, all tied to one specific adventure but open-ended enough for an enterprising GM to use in his own games. In all above examples, those mini-systems worked great.
I sort of agree, though I would say that campaign-spanning subsystems are cool as long as they are fully integrated into the campaign.
Two volumes of an AP have shipped in one month before when the schedule has slipped -- and, indeed, has to, for the GenCon AP release to remain on schedule. They have to catch up to have Shattered Star #1 available in August.
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Creative Director
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One thing that hasn't been done yet is re-using subsystems a second time. There's no reason the Kingmaker kingdom rules (for instance) couldn't be used in a future AP.
Doug M.
Actually... there is. It's not a good idea to tie a significant part of an Adventure Path to the contents of a previous one, since if the previous one goes out of print, we can't guarantee we'll reprint when or how many or if at all. Which means to be safe we'd want to reprint those rules in the second AP, and then suddenly for long-term subscribers a chunk of the second AP becomes reruns and that frustrates them.
Once materials end up in hardcover rulebooks, though... all bets are off! That's why, for example, you see haunts show up more often now.
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Creative Director
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On top of that, getting the nautical combat element of Skull & Shackles to a place where we wanted it also proved a larger task than we'd anticipated—Given how the caravan combat system of Jade Regent didn't work at all, that is probably a good thing.
That's hyperbole. I would say "Didn't work as expected," at worst. But in any event, that's a major reason why we're shying away from these types of things.
One thing that hasn't been done yet is re-using subsystems a second time. There's no reason the Kingmaker kingdom rules (for instance) couldn't be used in a future AP.
Doug M.
Actually... there is. It's not a good idea to tie a significant part of an Adventure Path to the contents of a previous one, since if the previous one goes out of print, we can't guarantee we'll reprint when or how many or if at all. Which means to be safe we'd want to reprint those rules in the second AP, and then suddenly for long-term subscribers a chunk of the second AP becomes reruns and that frustrates them.
Once materials end up in hardcover rulebooks, though... all bets are off! That's why, for example, you see haunts show up more often now.
Well, I wouldn't want a reprint of, say, the Kingdom building rules, I would want a revamped version of them. To be perfectly blunt, they were hardly playable. Maybe that would be best suited for a hardcover where you have more time to test them out?
James will there ever be a book that contains all these subsystems? I like the subsystems as my group and I are world builders so we like to have in game things to develop.
Plus I find the subsystems give a nice bit of flavour to the campaigns.
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Creative Director
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James will there ever be a book that contains all these subsystems? I like the subsystems as my group and I are world builders so we like to have in game things to develop.
Plus I find the subsystems give a nice bit of flavour to the campaigns.
A book that contains all of these subsystems, revised and expanded as necessary, and perhaps joined by additional subsystems, would not only be cool, but would allow us to use such elements in Adventure Paths, modules, and other products with MUCH GREATER ease.
I would love us to do a book like this, and have wanted us to do a book like this since the start, pretty much.
A book that contains all of these subsystems, revised and expanded as necessary, and perhaps joined by additional subsystems, would not only be cool, but would allow us to use such elements in Adventure Paths, modules, and other products with MUCH GREATER ease.
I would love us to do a book like this, and have wanted us to do a book like this since the start, pretty much.
+1
What subsystems allow, when fully developed, is a means to put non-traditional adventure design in the hands of table-top GMs.
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James will there ever be a book that contains all these subsystems? I like the subsystems as my group and I are world builders so we like to have in game things to develop.
Plus I find the subsystems give a nice bit of flavour to the campaigns.
A book that contains all of these subsystems, revised and expanded as necessary, and perhaps joined by additional subsystems, would not only be cool, but would allow us to use such elements in Adventure Paths, modules, and other products with MUCH GREATER ease.
I would love us to do a book like this, and have wanted us to do a book like this since the start, pretty much.
Ultimate Subsystems? :)
That's hyperbole. I would say "Didn't work as expected," at worst. But in any event, that's a major reason why we're shying away from these types of things.On top of that, getting the nautical combat element of Skull & Shackles to a place where we wanted it also proved a larger task than we'd anticipated—Given how the caravan combat system of Jade Regent didn't work at all, that is probably a good thing.
Yeah, but necessary hyperbole. Groups tried to run it as is and had bad play experience because of it. I made my group waste about four hours getting all I's dotted and T's properly slashed in anticipation of the upcoming caravan encounters, only to have to drop the whole thing because it became obvious that the system did not work.
Hell, until now we only have different suggestions from you and Jason on how to make the system maybe work.
And at this point, I'd rather see you guys making 150% sure that the subsystems in Skulls & Shackles work out, I can just run the encounters in Jade Regent the normal way. That way some of the really cool opponents in the third module will not be abstracted so much and I can hopefully involve the four ( three in my case, as Koya is a PC ) NPC's a bit more with the PC's, since the adventures are little help in that regard. Yeah, still miffed about that.
I'm curious about the possibility of shipping two issues of the S&S Adventure Path in the same month. ...[well written post]...
Good gaming to all,DJF
I am hoping that they don't do this. The adventure paths vary widely enough in setting/style that I evaluate each one and decide if I want to continue my subscription. Usually, I do this by picking up the first volume with my current sub and reading over it. If Paizo were to ship the first two volumes of the same AP in one month, I'd be required to buy the second volume, sight unseen, when I may not want to. I don't mind a missed month though.
I sent an email to customer service about this since Skull and Shackles seems on course to double ship and got a very nice reply from Sara. Paizo has the best customer service folks working for them.
Thanks, Vic!
And because I wanted to put it in its own reply to make sure folks know:
The AP line is NOT about to come to an end. It's continuing to be one of our most popular lines and one of our biggest moneymakers and critical successes. It's still a flagship line.
It's not going anywhere. It's just taking longer for a couple of months to GET where it's going.
As long as the APs are still written and done well, we'll still buy them. I enjoy running the pre-pathfinder ones because the stories in many of them are GREAT!
Not to mention if anyone is new to DMing, they are essencially a "Campaign-in-a-can" as I describe them. Great if you aren't confident enough to homebrew your own.