so Rangers they are a full BAB d10 warrior with minor spell casting.
So basically what good are they? Every time i go to build one and say " I want a archer with spells and skills, first though. Ranger, nah, i'll go with a bard, i get party buffs and more spells, a little feat starved but once i have precises shot...not to shabby.
Or if i just want to make a 2-weapon fighter, ranger....nah... FIGHTER more feats (no archetype or maybe 2-weapon or mobility) more feats and the bonus damage and weapon spec. OR barbarian rage powers maybe do that horribly broken thing where i get pounce (just because ONE of the developers says it doesn't work with extra weapon attacks does not mean that there was an errata AND Beastry 3 has come opt and pounce has not been changed) and i get the auto bonus speed and uncanny dodge.
so i ask again "Why ranger?"
Favored Enemy? Yeah it's good but a little limited
Combat Style? The feats seem too spread out
Hunters bond? if i liked the first ability i'd probably like the option to spread it, but the animal companion...it's a VERY limited selection and it's 3 levels lower than you so it's not very effective.
Evasion? well i love this ability, but it's at level 9, REALLY LATE
i don't dislike them but i just don't get them.
I've never been a big ranger fan either.
Like you seem to be saying, there are very few if any concepts that i can think of that wouldn't work better in another class.
Pretty much only when I have a character built around hating one specific race or something...
Still, Rangers are right up there on my list of classes that interest me the least. Just below Bards...
EDIT: Yeah they are good at tracking... but even then a lot of the time I would probably rather play an Inquisitor.
Favored Enemy is one of the only parts of the class that I DO like :P
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They range.
/thread
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I like rangers. There probably is an archetype that can outperform any one thing a ranger does, but I doubt there is any martial class that can be as flexible as the ranger. Despite being forced to pick ranged or TWF "paths" rangers can perform well in both roles.
If you want to do a specific thing as well as possible, the ranger probably isn't for you. If you want to be able to do lots of things competently and still bring the hurt in a fight, rangers are hard to beat.
I have a love for Rangers lately. I have to admit it probably is flavor that is drawing me. Still the combat style feats are spread but they do not require prerequisites which is a plus. While you point out why a number of their class features are not the best compared to others Ranger has them all together. They are generalists more than specialists in that reguard.
Unless you don't want to Min/Max a character, and enjoy the story. I have always found rangers to be effective and DIFFERENT from a two weapon fighter and the like. Favored enemy is as limited as the favored enemies/terrains you choose..and frequently more played than say sneak attacks. The hunters bond animal is not intended to be a war machine, but a scout/mount/flanker.
You get what you put in.
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Guide ranger with 2 weapon combat style + take point blank shot and precise shot. You can do anything combat related and be effective.
Favored Enemy? Yeah it's good but a little limited[/b]That's why you discuss with your GM about what favored enemies you should get. That being said spells like Instant Enemy don't make it very limited anymore.
Combat Style? The feats seem too spread outThe idea is that you don't need to meet the prerequisites to get them. So you don't have to have a really high dex for a TWF ranger or point blank shot to start going nuts with an archer ranger.
Hunters bond? if i liked the first ability i'd probably like the option to spread it, but the animal companion...it's a VERY limited selection and it's 3 levels lower than you so it's not very effective.Boon companion negates that 3 level issue. Even without it it all comes down in how you use it. A mounted archer doesnt seem very weak at all when hes pumping full attacks while moving 50ft. a round. A melee ranger flanking with a tripping wolf can get quite nasty as well. And then you buff them. Alternatively you can be a beastmaster and get whatever kind of animals you like.
Evasion? well i love this ability, but it's at level 9, REALLY LATE
Well, it's not like you really needed it anyway.
What rangers are are martial characters with two good saves, tons of skill points and a spell list that's very very good. You can build them to act as hunters, guardsman, special forces, or just plain soldiers. Adding archetypes adds on to this idea.
I consistently end up making rangers because they consistently end up fitting the group/story. And, honestly, I roll stats terribly. When you have a 14 14 13 12 12 10 stat array, sometimes a martial class that can skip pre-reqs is a god send.
In my opinion, the biggest draws are the Combat Style feats and Favored Enemy. The skills, spellcasting, and general odds and ends all help too.
The great thing about Combat Style is not being restrained by prerequisites. A dedicated Fighter who specializes in TWF is going to have to find room for a 17 or 19 DEX, while a Ranger has little reason to go over 15 (if that). Using the Archery line to take only the choicest feats makes for a great switch hitter, and there are esoteric uses for the others lines thanks to some of them giving feats early.
Favored Enemy can be absolutely crippling at high levels. Especially in Adventure Paths, there are certain standards that will find plenty of use (Humanoid(human) and Outsider(evil), especially). For other enemies, you have Instant Enemy (an almost required wand for the high level Ranger). If the campaign happens to have a theme enemy, it can be almost disgusting.
Then there is the rest. Spells offer a lot of utility, and are low enough level to make Pearls of Power and Wands very cost effective. Favored Terrains are pretty broad, and offer very nice bonuses (especially Initiative and Perception... mmmmm). The animal companion can add a lot of damage if you pick up Boon Companion, and isn't bad even without it.
If I had to sum up the Ranger, it would be "Fighter with tricks." You don't get your bonuses all the time, but with planning (and a bit of gold), you can get them when you need them. You are a skill master, going from "good" to "insane" when in the right situation (or terrain). And... you know what? It is easy. You are freakin' Aragorn. Who doesn't want to be Aragorn? I mean, you get to be played by Viggo Mortensen in the movie!
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What everyone above has said, plus other stuff like:
One of two full BAB classes able to use a wand of cure light wounds without UMD. The ability to leave intelligence at 10 and have more skills than just about any fighter and most barbarians. An animal companion! One who can be at full druid hit dice for the measly cost of one feat! A ridiculous amount of utility to help your party including tracking, wild empathy, favoured enemy sharing, favoured terrain. Endurance for free, meaning sleeping in armour for free, which should not ever be taken for granted in a wilderness campaign.*
*Just tonight my party was attacked by wolves while camping. Luckily my cleric was on watch, or he wouldn't have had his full plate on, and would have been taking total defence with his naked behind and his dexterity of 12.
Also, the ranger is a great class to go into my personal favourite prestige class: the horizon walker.
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so i ask again "Why ranger?"Favored Enemy? Yeah it's good but a little limited
Combat Style? The feats seem too spread out
Hunters bond? if i liked the first ability i'd probably like the option to spread it, but the animal companion...it's a VERY limited selection and it's 3 levels lower than you so it's not very effective.
Evasion? well i love this ability, but it's at level 9, REALLY LATEi don't dislike them but i just don't get them.
Favored Enemy: lately it's an unbelievably powerful ability, thank to instant enemy and hunter's howl. For level under 10 the Guide archetype is extremely strong.
Combat Style: the feats ignore prerequisites, as it has been pointed out. They are not as many as the fighter's but compare them to what the paladin gets.Hunter Bond: the companion is as good as the druids (thanks to boon companion). It's capable of decent damage output, can help you flanking/tripping etc, absorb damage (if it dies you just find another) and make for one of the best possible mounts.
Evasion: I don't care a lot about it but having it is nice anyway.
And more importantly:
Skill points: it's a lot of skill points, you can do stuff the fighter can't dream to do (btw, rangers are the best trackers in the game). If you want you can be a skill monkey, if you only care for combat you can put a heavy dump in INT, put your favored class bonus to hp and still have more skill points than a fighter with decent INT and put is favored class bonus in skills.
Favored terrain: some campaign heavily revolves around specific type of terrain, in those you laugh in the face of rogues for scouting (you are already as good as they are unless you decide that you don't care about it) and the bonus to initiative is something the fighter can't get access to.
Spells: this is really huge. Comparing the spellcasting ability to that of full spellcaster it's like comparing a ferrari to a range rover and being pissed because your boot is smaller. Spellcasting is the icing on the cake for the ranger, but it's a frigging delicious icing. Ranger's spells from Core are already good and offer very nice bonuses: they free the main spellcaster from the need to nurse you and let him do more useful stuff while you take care of the base stuff, they allow you to decide what to cast and when, they get you healing without UMD. But is as soon as you stray from core that the good stuff becomes wonderfully wonderful stuff: there are spells that allow you to make your favored enemy bonus come into play when you want to (and that's huge, you will be the star in any boss fight); there are spells that make you a top notch maneuver master at any maneuver you want to (animal aspects line, aspect of the XXX line); spells that, given enough time to prepare (and remember that you have the potential to be the best scout in the game), will make any other damage dealer be ashamed of the air they are breating (named bullet and greater: crazy stuff, as soon as you can cast 3rd level spells and buy a few pearls of power, which are dirty cheap for rangers since ranger's spell usually are of lower level than for anyone else, you can launch a single volley capable of killing a monster with CR so high that an entire party of fighter would spends rounds to be noticed by); spells that will improve your strong points (damage dealing with gravity bow or lead blades, favored terrain bonus active even in other terrains, scouting etc); spells that will make up for your shortcomings (especially since you can do a lot of stuff without making UMD checks with really cheap scrolls). Oh, and spells are keyed to WIS: you need only limited investment for basic purposes and anything more you punt into it its good anyway since it helps with the only weak save you have.
Well, those are the reason for playing a ranger. To sum it up, they are the most versatile full BAB class, so versatile that the only problem with them is that they make the rogue class useless.
Honestly, my point of view is the opposite: I see rangers as the baseline choice I weight any other full BAB class against to see if its worth playing.
I'll play paladin if the concept requires it and if I want the highest durability and the campaign offers good opportunity for roleplay in civilized area (actually, the question for me is: should I play a paladin or ranger? the other classes are for corner cases).
I'll play a fighter only if I really want to specialize in one or two maneuver OR dealing high damage against EVERY enemy OR the campaign have a lot of fights per day against a lot of weak enemies of a lot of different types.
I'll play a barbarian to play a barbarian, that's it (and even than, a Guide ranger may substitute for it, just describe Ranger focus as rage and spells are rage powers: some stuff may be not replicated but spells can do things that rage powers cannot, and you get to choose them every day).
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They're men, they're men in tights.
They roam around the forest looking for fights.
They're men, they're men in tights.
They rob from the rich and give to the poor, that's right!
They may look like sissies, but watch what you say or else they'll put out your lights!
They're men, they're men in tights,
Always on guard defending the people's rights.
Doting for future reference.
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They're men, they're men in tights.
They roam around the forest looking for fights.
They're men, they're men in tights.
They rob from the rich and give to the poor, that's right!
They may look like sissies, but watch what you say or else they'll put out your lights!
They're men, they're men in tights,
Always on guard defending the people's rights.
I like rangers in low Point Buy campaigns. You can make a TWF with high Str, low Dex and still be viable.
Or you can make a fighter who doesn't have quite so many feats, but has something to do outside of combat - those skill points are great to have.
I keep make the Guide archetype.
I've been watching our party dwarf ranger make an excellent scout. He is stealthy and he can hold his own in a fight till the party catches up to him when he has been ambushed. A rogue couldn't take the hits he did, both in terms of AC and hit points.
Rangers are my current favourite class.
Really?
Favored Enemy? Yes, eventually you get the ability to cast a spell to turn anyone into your FE. It's awesome.
Combat Style? Entry into awesome feats up to five levels sooner than fighters? What's not awesome about that?
Hunters bond? You're missing the point
Evasion? It's not a main feature of a guy who is already almost one rounding monsters of appropriate CR. This is like asking what good the eighth level fight feat is.
You're missing the most important things about the ranger though. Things like early entry archery feats and good spell selection for some nice buffs. I see a lot of people who assume they aren't as good as fighters.
But you don't have to take MY word for it
Actually I wrote that too. Read the guide and tell me you can get a fighter who does all that.
Rangers are awesome. I don't think I have played anything else for combat in a long time. I really do need to try something different.
HA! Better ask what Ranger NOT do.
Ranger not stand and fight - Ranger hit and run.
Ranger not fight, kill and die - Ranger hunt and kill.
Ranger track, sneak, shoot. Ranger make nasty ambush in favoured terrain.
Ranger always do well.
HA! Better ask what Ranger NOT do.
Ranger not stand and fight - Ranger hit and run.
Well, that's not necessary true either.
One of my friends is playing a shielded ranger and by all means he can stand, take a nap, waking up still alive and fight.
so Rangers they are a full BAB d10 warrior with minor spell casting.
So basically what good are they? Every time i go to build one and say " I want a archer with spells and skills, first though. Ranger, nah, i'll go with a bard, i get party buffs and more spells, a little feat starved but once i have precises shot...not to shabby.
So you found that a different class fits your concept better. Go forth and play your concept!
Rangers are full-BAB skillmonkeys that usually specialize in wilderness survival. There are a lot of things you can do with them, but their strongest flavor is scouty/sneaky/fighty. The spells are really supplementary to their wilderness/fighty theme, and not really a stand out feature. If you don't like scouty-wildernessy-fighty, it is probably not the class for you.
If what you want to play is a skilled archer with spells and skills, ABSOLUTELY there are zillions of other ways to build that. If I want a really good archer with divine spells, I will play a paladin or inquisitor. If I want a really good archer with arcane spells, I'll probably do some kind of arcane archer build--or maybe even arcane trickster or eldritch knight, depending on my particular concept. For some of those I might even dip into ranger but it probably won't be the primary class. And yep, Bard's a great idea for that too, especially if what you're looking for is a support character.
Always look at the concept you want to play first, THEN determine the feats and class abilities you need to reflect that concept, THEN choose your class from there. Don't pick a class you think looks good but then you realize it doesn't suit your style of play--always put your play style and concept first before picking out your build, it usually turns out better.
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We run a lot. Seriously, there is a lot of running.
Rangers are full-BAB skillmonkeys that usually specialize in wilderness travel.This caught my eye. You guys, rangers are Full-BAB skill-monkeys. Omigod.
Seriously, you know how many skills the expert gets? Int + 6. Rangers are 'mazing.
I... don't get what the big deal is? That's just what I think rangers are. You're welcome to disagree, of course; maybe we use the term skillmonkey differently. But I don't really understand your tone here at all, or why it was necessary to pull that out of context.
Anyway, all I wanted to say to the OP was build your concept, but don't try to shoehorn a class into it that might not be the best fit.
Here is another use of favored enemy that could be useful to shore up weaknesses.I think the witch class has problems dealing with undead(so much mind affecting) but if you have a witch in the party and choose favored enemy undead then you can defeat them easier. I like to think of this as favored enemy hedging.
Rangers have always been one of my all time favorite classes. They are a very fluff-oriented class though. A Ranger is a wildnerness expert, hunter, tracker, survivalist, scout, stealth, etc.
I've always played Rangers from one of the above mindsets(even the 3e one with no features but Favored Enemy and TWF), and got really into it. I've seen other players just grab the class because of some game mechanics and numbers, be get sorely disappointed.
I understand where the OP is comming from, I didnt really "get" Ranger on reading it either. Some of that is carry over from previous editions, some undervaluing certain abilities, some was not applying other core books to the class. My advice is read a few of the guides posted on these very boards. I am now drooling at the thought of playing as a switch hitter Ranger with Boon companion. My first too spells Gravity Bow and lead blades. I want to go half elf just to squeeze acrobatics for added fun!
Seriously if my DM will give me a few bread crumbs as to what to take for terain and enemy, the Ranger may become my favorite class. Sure you wont be the best at any one thing...but man you will never, ever be bored. Flying enemies, I can shoot my bow, Melee, I can pull my greatsword, Party needs healing, dig out a wand, Need a skill monkey to accompany the rogue, got that down too...oh and if you need another flank buddy...here is my kick ass wolf buddy who can contribute a nice trip attack.
It wasnt intil I read the guides that I caught on to how they are perfectly designed to be able to always participate. Did I say read the guides...if not Read the Guides...lol
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Rangers are full-BAB skillmonkeys that usually specialize in wilderness travel.This caught my eye. You guys, rangers are Full-BAB skill-monkeys. Omigod.
Seriously, you know how many skills the expert gets? Int + 6. Rangers are 'mazing.
I... don't get what the big deal is? That's just what I think rangers are. You're welcome to disagree, of course; maybe we use the term skillmonkey differently. But I don't really understand your tone here at all, or why it was necessary to pull that out of context.
Anyway, all I wanted to say to the OP was build your concept, but don't try to shoehorn a class into it that might not be the best fit.
Simply put, skills are awesome. Full BAB is awesome. The ranger gets both plus divine spells. Your post was a big deal to me because it shows the ranger is able to throw his weight around in combat scenarios, dungeoneering scenarios, wilderness scenarios, and even possibly have a skill point left over for social scenarios. Being able to participate in every single part of the game (without sacrificing efficiency in the part of the game in which you want to specialize) is something that should be noticed and shouted from rooftops.
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Pfft, no one plays humans. All my players play ponies.
Can I join your game?
@Mergy, Rangers are awesome. If you can get them squared off against their favored enemies.... they can be devastating. I have a ranger with dragons as a favored enemy. He hunts dragons in fact. His damage against a dragon is off the scale.
One thing that people tend to overlook with rangers is that as spellcasters they can research spells and expand their limited repertoire of spells and become even more effective in different roles than the traditional roles.
I really am not one who has "favorites" but I sure do enjoy playing my ranger. I think they are not simply great mechanically, but they can have a flavor that makes role play fun too.
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Fixed that for you.HA! BETTER ASK WHAT RANGER NOT DO.
RANGER NOT STAND AND FIGHT - RANGER HIT AND RUN.
RANGER NOT FIGHT, KILL AND DIE - RANGER HUNT AND KILL.
RANGER TRACK, SNEAK, SHOOT. RANGER MAKE NASTY AMBUSH IN FAVOURED TERRAIN.
RANGER ALWAYS DO WELL.
RANGER AM VERY QUIET, PALADIN AM FORGET RANGER AM THERE MANY TIMES. AM LIKE ROGUE, BUT BETTER.
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Pfft, no one plays humans. All my players play ponies.Can I join your game?
It's not a great time for new players. The PCs keep TPKing on the staircase up to their hideout.
@Mergy, Rangers are awesome. If you can get them squared off against their favored enemies.... they can be devastating. I have a ranger with dragons as a favored enemy. He hunts dragons in fact. His damage against a dragon is off the scale.
One thing that people tend to overlook with rangers is that as spellcasters they can research spells and expand their limited repertoire of spells and become even more effective in different roles than the traditional roles.
I really am not one who has "favorites" but I sure do enjoy playing my ranger. I think they are not simply great mechanically, but they can have a flavor that makes role play fun too.
Dragonslayers are pretty cool, but I do want to note for a new player creating a ranger that you do not want to choose a favoured enemy that you will only encounter as a final BBEG. Favoured Enemy: Human or Undead is nearly always my first choice. That said, if my adventure path was taking place in Skyrim, I would be Favoured Enemy: Dragoning all over the place.
The shield ranger is awesome. I'm playing one in Legacy of Fire who uses a heavy shield with handles on both ends so he can two-handed power bash. Bull rush bash all day all the time!
Itching to play one since i realized i can take shield SLAM at second level, no matter what.
Had a ranger I played from AD&D (second ed.) super strong with a 2h sword. When 3.0(-.5) dropped I used the bow spec. Took levels of Divine Agent from the planes book.
Total Beast in melee range. If you tried to run away you got shot to death. He had sex with a goddess. Your mealy little fighter is unfit to clean the dirt from the bottom of his boots.
RANGER AM VERY QUIET, PALADIN AM FORGET RANGER AM THERE MANY TIMES. AM LIKE ROGUE, BUT BETTER.
RANGER AM CUNNING. SUBTLE.
RANGER COVER YOUR BACK. ALWAYS.RANGER LET PALADIN HAVE GLORY. ALIVE.
Dragonslayers are pretty cool, but I do want to note for a new player creating a ranger that you do not want to choose a favoured enemy that you will only encounter as a final BBEG. Favoured Enemy: Human or Undead is nearly always my first choice. That said, if my adventure path was taking place in Skyrim, I would be Favoured Enemy: Dragoning all over the place.
To me it's almost a flavor thing. Of course this ranger was converted from 2e through 3.5 and into PF, so his dragon hunting, I believe, predates favored enemy. Or at least it predates the awesome power of it anyway. His family was killed by an evil dragon and he has sworn to protect the world from that scourge.
I'm OK that he has to fight his way through minions to get to use his favored enemy bonuses.... :)
Rangers are to Druids what Paladins are to Clerics IMO. Why pick Paladin? Smite and some minor heals?
At the end of the day it's flavor. You may as well just have a Barbarian, Cleric, and Wizard. Cleric has spells for traps, wizard can have spells for unlocking and scouting, making Rogue useless. Cleric/Wizard can use spells for being a face, Barbarian can tank and deal stupid-amounts of damage by himself. etc etc. You get the point.