Bodhizen's Guide to the Optimal Paladin & Antipaladin


Advice

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Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Undone wrote:

So I've recently read your guide. I really like it. After reading the effects of archery I've fallen in love with it and wouldn't mind a little guidance. This character is for PFS

STATS: I've two arrays so far but am SURE I'm going to be human for the feat.

STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 13 INT: 7 WIS: 7 CHA: 16
STR: 12 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 7 WIS: 10 CHA: 16

Note: there are a LOT of skill-checks in PFS; and completing your faction assignments (for acquiring prestige and access to equipment) is highly dependent upon them. It's not all Perception and Diplomacy either; you will also make Swim, Climb and Acrobatics checks -- not necessarily with regularity, but enough times that you won't forget how bad it sucked when you didn't make DC10. Therefore, I'd be leery of 7 INT in any PFS build aside from "stupid rogues".

While CON is more necessary in PFS than in a home game (where you may habitually enjoy the luxury of your archer always being in the background), 16 is probably overboard in a paladin (especially a high-AC one who doesn't forfeit LoH).

For PFS, I can't recommend the 15/14/14/14/12/07 20pt pre-racial array highly enough.

Note the PFS characters retire after 12th; and higher-level tables are often hard to muster -- I'd focus on making a character who is "solid" by 3rd level. (I recently played a min/maxed 07/19 STR/DEX TWF character who wouldn't "shine" until acquiring the Agile enhancement...and it was an excruciating ordeal getting there.)

All the problems so far were diplomatically solvable and every table I've been at has been helpful toward completing faction missions. As for odd arrays I just don't like odd numbers. The above array just seems like it makes you bad at everything.

STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 7
WIS: 12
CHA: 14

leaves you with 2 16s after racial and only nets you 1 point in perception. If I was going to be a halfling and take divine hunter that might be an option ending with

STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 7
WIS: 12
CHA: 18

That's a decent stat array without dropping wisdom but requires me to be divine hunter for the feat which I'm leaning away from as oath seems stronger between the two.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Watch this:

Human, Dual Talent racial trait (forfeits human feat/skill for two stat bumps w/no penalty).

15/14/14/14/12/07 array yields....

Archer Paladin
STR:14 or 12
DEX+17 ...bump 4th (or 16, no bumps)
CON:12 or 14
INT:14
WIS:07 ...you're a paladin; you do not need this after Divine Grace.
CHA+16 ...bump 8th, 12th (or 17 & all bumps)

Armor: Junk early, then Mithral Agile Breastplate and quickdraw light shield.

Melee paladin simply switches STR and DEX. "Chaladin" switches DEX and CHA. If you hate stats under 10, switch to the 15/14/12/12/12/12 array (which converts the 7 into a 12 by dropping two of the 14s in the other array down to 12s).

In any event, the 17 becomes an 18 at 4th, and with belt/headband are looking at a 20 and an 18 in your two prime stats by no later than 6th in PFS. For PFS, I'd start with the higher DEX and bump 4th (so as to max out the DEX+5 allowance of the mithral armor (which you'll want for full movement).

Two 14s and a 12 go into STR/CON/INT. Customize to taste. With stellar AC, LoH, paladin saving throws and archer emphasis, putting the 12 in CON is optimal. 14 INT brings in 4 skills per level without the human bonus, and makes Combat Expertise available should you want it at some point (say, 11th, when you're eligible to play the top-end tiers).

Go half-n-half between the guide archery build and my flex kit:

01: PBS
03: Rapid Shot
05: Quick Draw
07: Manyshot
09: Power Attack

...the idea here is to quickly machinegun anything not in melee, then wade in to the fray. (Precise Shot does not appear here, because it is my experience in PFS that targets in melee are invariably also receiving a soft-cover bonus for an overall -8 relative penalty.)

A stand-action move & swat w/Power Attack using a two-handed weapon represents formidable damage at 9th.

There are so many good feats out there that it's painful to limit ourselves to so few, so we pick only those we envision using at least once per encounter.

I dislike Divine Hunter as it forfeits Aura of Courage (which protects the dumped WIS score while also covering nearby allies); big monsters in top tiers generate some high Fear DCs.

Shadow Lodge

Ranger/Paladin multiclass:

Stats: (same as above)

01 rang1 [Urban], Quick Draw
02 rang2 [Archery Style:(Rapid Shot)]
03 pala1 [Divine Hunter:(Precise Shot)], Power Attack
04 pala2 DEX>18, [Divine Grace]
05 rang3 Deadly Aim or Weapon Focus:Longbow
06 rang4 (spells! glorious spells!)
07 rang5 Manyshot
08 rang6 [Improved Precise Shot]
09 pala3 Improved Critical
10 pala4 (spells, glorious spells!)
11 pala5 [Weapon Bond], FEAT
12 pala6

Equipment: gumball machine full of Pearls of Power I


PROS: It's a fine guide. Shows great attention to detail. The graphics are great. Solid advice if you want optimized DPR.

Cons: Why are there no sample builds? Three or four basic builds draw all of those endless this is blue becaues comments together. And - Just one Paladin (Hospitaler)build would have been nice. Highly underrated archtype.


Havoq wrote:

PROS: It's a fine guide. Shows great attention to detail. The graphics are great. Solid advice if you want optimized DPR.

Cons: Why are there no sample builds? Three or four basic builds draw all of those endless this is blue becaues comments together. And - Just one Paladin (Hospitaler)build would have been nice. Highly underrated archtype.

Havoq,

Thank you for your comments on the guide, and I hope that you find it very useful.

Here's why I don't post sample builds; two primary reasons here... First is that every time there is new material added, I'd have to reflect upon and possibly alter the sample builds to include for this new material. It might even cause the rebuilding of the sample build just by the inclusion of a new feat, spell or archetype. That's not insignificant in terms of calculation and work. The second (and in my mind, more important) reason that I do not create sample builds is that people have a tendency to see a sample build (particularly one that's been tested) and play that, exactly. I'm all for people using my Guide as a guide for play, but I'm personally wary of giving too much direction, if that makes sense.

A last note about the Combat Medic build... It is my hope to include it in a future iteration of the Guide, thanks to FangDragon's magnificent commentary.


Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Watch this:

Human, Dual Talent racial trait (forfeits human feat/skill for two stat bumps w/no penalty).

15/14/14/14/12/07 array yields....

Archer Paladin
STR:14 or 12
DEX+17 ...bump 4th (or 16, no bumps)
CON:12 or 14
INT:14
WIS:07 ...you're a paladin; you do not need this after Divine Grace.
CHA+16 ...bump 8th, 12th (or 17 & all bumps)

Armor: Junk early, then Mithral Agile Breastplate and quickdraw light shield.

Melee paladin simply switches STR and DEX. "Chaladin" switches DEX and CHA. If you hate stats under 10, switch to the 15/14/12/12/12/12 array (which converts the 7 into a 12 by dropping two of the 14s in the other array down to 12s).

In any event, the 17 becomes an 18 at 4th, and with belt/headband are looking at a 20 and an 18 in your two prime stats by no later than 6th in PFS. For PFS, I'd start with the higher DEX and bump 4th (so as to max out the DEX+5 allowance of the mithral armor (which you'll want for full movement).

Two 14s and a 12 go into STR/CON/INT. Customize to taste. With stellar AC, LoH, paladin saving throws and archer emphasis, putting the 12 in CON is optimal. 14 INT brings in 4 skills per level without the human bonus, and makes Combat Expertise available should you want it at some point (say, 11th, when you're eligible to play the top-end tiers).

Go half-n-half between the guide archery build and my flex kit:

01: PBS
03: Rapid Shot
05: Quick Draw
07: Manyshot
09: Power Attack

...the idea here is to quickly machinegun anything not in melee, then wade in to the fray. (Precise Shot does not appear here, because it is my experience in PFS that targets in melee are invariably also receiving a soft-cover bonus for an overall -8 relative penalty.)

A stand-action move & swat w/Power Attack using a two-handed weapon represents formidable damage at 9th.

There are so many good feats out there that it's painful to limit ourselves to so few, so we pick only those we envision using at least once per encounter.

I dislike Divine Hunter as it...

While appreciated how is the dual racial trait human ever better than Azata-Blooded (Musetouched)for the build? You get nothing vs resistances, an anti invisibility SLA, +2 diplomacy, and darkvision. The required feats are PBS, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Many shot, deadly aim. Everything else is up in the air but ranged takes 5 feats to be usable.

Assuming I take divine archer (Which costs me 4-6 smites more than halving my damage for half the day) why quick draw? It just seems terrible. Switching to melee doesn't help when you're HORRIBLE in melee. It's better to just take the AOO and heal it. The above build makes me bad at ranged and bad at melee. No deadly shot and no other archery feats just seems bad. I feel like it's 60% as good at two things which are mutually exclusive and consume the same actions. It also costs me twice the amount on weapons.

As for the guide it's truly interesting and has inspired me to roll a paladin archer. You're very convincing and it was a great read. Although I do concur sample builds would go a long way :)


Bodhizen wrote:

FangDragon,

Thank you for your reply. You may have noticed that you already convinced me of the potential efficacy of the build, so this is more an academic discussion for us at this point.

OK, so lets change tack and examine the various options available for optimizing LoH (mostly):

Traits:
Blessed Touch - +1 extra healing, seems a bit weak compared to other traits
Magical Talent (Paladin) - increases caster level to paladin level - 1, particularly useful for Hospitaler paladins since normally their Channel Energy progression lags 3 levels behind.

Favored Class Options:
Halflings, Elves, Gnomes Briarborn and Half Faerie Dragons get +1/2 on LoH which is nice
Tieflings get +1 on LoH self healing, powerful!

Feats:
Fey Foundling - borderline overpowered
Greater Mercy - great at low level, but doesn't scale
Ultimate Mercy - useful if you don't otherwise have access to raise dead
Extra Lay On Hands - Usefulness depends on how many encounters you have in the adventuring day
Word of Healing - I'm not too keen on using LoH as a standard action except in emergencies, and it halves the amount of healing done
Extra Mercy - Very campaign dependent, probably not worth it
Reward of Life - Weak self heal when using LoH to heal somebody else, again I'm not too keen on using LoH as a standard action except in emergencies, so I wouldn't recommend this.
Reward of Grace - +1 sacred bonus to attack rolls for 1 round after using LoH is nice, but there's so many other feats
Extra Channel - While channel is useful, I think there's better feats than this

Items:
Bracers of the Merciful Knight - LoH acts as if 4 levels higher, nice
Vambraces, Merciful - I'd rather have Bracers of the Merciful Knight
Bracelet of Mercy - again I'd rather have Bracers of the Merciful Knight
Crystal of Healing Hands - Allows one LoH to be stored and used by somebody else as a standard action. I guess this is a win from the paladin's point of view but I expect moat people would want to use the next slot for natural armor.
Ornament of Healing Light - Allows ranged LoH and unlike Word of Healing the full amount is healed. Still requires a standard action, so meh.
Phylactery of Positive Channeling - If only this was not on the headband slot... For a home game, ask this to use a different slot
Meditation Crystal - 1/day spend 1 minute to regain 1 LoH use. It's so cheap and doesn't take a slot seems like a no brainer.
Grayflame enchantment - Hospitalar paladins often have excess Channel Energy uses, so this is quite nice

Spells:
Hero's Defiance - Very nice, my DM banned this ><
Shield Other - Very nice, best used with Hero's Defiance memorized just in case you get more damage incoming than you bargained for
Paladin's Sacrifice - You will save lives with this, however you won't be able to use a swift action to heal yourself next round so be careful
Cure X - leave it to wands
Sacred Bond - Trap
Blaze of Glory - Pretty sure I'd rather use Hero's Defiance
Sacrificial Oath - like Paladin's Sacrifice on steroids

Build with maximized LoH self healing:

Tiefling with Blessed Touch trait, Fey Foundling, Extra Mercy, and Bracers of the Merciful Knight

At level 9 that Tiefling paladin would heal on average for for (4 level + 2 bracers + 1 greater mercy) * (3.5 + 2) + (1 Blessed Touch + 9 Favored Class)= 48.5 healing or 54 healing if Hero's Defiance's was used.
And at level 20 that's even more silly: (10 level + 2 bracers + 1 greater mercy) * (3.5 + 2) + (1 Blessed Touch + 20 Favored Class) = 92.5 healing


I'm having trouble accessing the Guide on Google Docs. I can't download it, Save As, or even print it. Is something broken?

Shadow Lodge

Undone wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Watch this:

Human, Dual Talent racial trait (forfeits human feat/skill for two stat bumps w/no penalty).

15/14/14/14/12/07 array yields....(snip)I

While appreciated how is the dual racial trait human ever better than Azata-Blooded (Musetouched)for the build? You get nothing vs resistances, an anti invisibility SLA, +2 diplomacy, and darkvision.
<toss up hands> ...if you want to argue humans are suboptimal compared to certain new racial archetypes, I won't play the foil. ...but race isn't critical for the mechanics of the flex build; the assimar skins just fine.
Quote:
The required feats are PBS, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Many shot, deadly aim. Everything else is up in the air but ranged takes 5 feats to be usable.

Which is every feat a non-multiclassed, non-human paladin has up until 11th. Or 9th if you're a Divine Hunter (which forfeits mount, Aura of Courage and the insanely awesome Aura of Resolve and Aura of Justice and OMFG why would anyone ever give those two up? Smite to everyone in the party with your bonuses? Yowza!).

Feat delays aren't a problem if your GM says, "Make a 10th-level character!"; but a tedious slog of eye-gouging misery played from first.

Quote:
Switching to melee doesn't help when you're HORRIBLE in melee.
Physical stat-dumped wizards without combat feats are "HORRIBLE" in melee. A paladin in his pajamas with his eyes open is very dangerous in melee if you're evil -- he'll beat you to death with his fist, or your own weapon after taking it from you. ....assuming, of course, that DEX isn't his only decent physical attribute, and he set one feat-slot aside for Power Attack.
Quote:
It's better to just take the AOO and heal it. The above build makes me bad at ranged and bad at melee. No deadly shot and no other archery feats just seems bad. I feel like it's 60% as good at two things which are mutually exclusive and consume the same actions. It also costs me twice the amount on weapons.

<eyebrow lift> ...considering what a paladin can do on an ordinary x2 lance charge, DR be damned, versus a smite-buddy without any feats aside from Power Attack -- all he really needs to blow holes through things on a mount is a supply of saplings and a whittling knife.

The imperative to hyper-specialize to the point of being completely useless in situations where you're denied your one-trick-pony schtick is, to me, the height of suboptimal.

Shadow Lodge

Undone wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:

Watch this:

Human, Dual Talent racial trait (forfeits human feat/skill for two stat bumps w/no penalty).

15/14/14/14/12/07 array yields....(snip)I

While appreciated how is the dual racial trait human ever better than Azata-Blooded (Musetouched)for the build? You get nothing vs resistances, an anti invisibility SLA, +2 diplomacy, and darkvision.
<toss up hands> ...if you want to argue humans are suboptimal compared to certain new racial archetypes, I won't play the foil. ...but race isn't critical for the mechanics of the flex build; the assimar skins just fine.
Quote:
The required feats are PBS, Precise shot, Rapid shot, Many shot, deadly aim. Everything else is up in the air but ranged takes 5 feats to be usable.

Which is every feat a non-multiclassed, non-human paladin has up until 11th. Or 9th if you're a Divine Hunter (which forfeits mount, Aura of Courage and the insanely awesome Aura of Resolve and Aura of Justice and OMFG why would anyone ever give those two up? Smite to everyone in the party with your bonuses? Yowza!).

Feat delays aren't a problem if your GM says, "Make a 10th-level character!"; but a tedious slog of eye-gouging misery played from first.

Quote:
Switching to melee doesn't help when you're HORRIBLE in melee.
Physical stat-dumped wizards without combat feats are "HORRIBLE" in melee. A paladin in his pajamas with his eyes open is very dangerous in melee if you're evil -- he'll beat you to death with his fists, or your own weapon after taking it from you. ....assuming, of course, that DEX isn't his only decent physical attribute, and he set one feat-slot aside for Power Attack.
Quote:
It's better to just take the AOO and heal it. The above build makes me bad at ranged and bad at melee. No deadly shot and no other archery feats just seems bad. I feel like it's 60% as good at two things which are mutually exclusive and consume the same actions. It also costs me twice the amount on weapons.

<eyebrow lift> ...considering what a paladin can do on an ordinary x2 lance charge, DR be damned, versus a smite-buddy without any feats aside from Power Attack -- all he really needs to blow holes through things on a mount is a supply of saplings and a whittling knife.

The imperative to hyper-specialize to the point of being completely useless in situations where you're denied your one-trick-pony schtick is, to me, the height of suboptimal.


Calybos1 wrote:

I'm having trouble accessing the Guide on Google Docs. I can't download it, Save As, or even print it. Is something broken?

No. Please read my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

Thank you for your interest.


I just hit 10th on my Paladin for RotRL

Aasimar (Angel Kin)of Sarenrae
Oath of Vengeance

Feats:
Extra Lay on Hands
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Lunge
Leadership (this was taken due to me taking command of a certain fort) I don't get a direct cohort but more support staff to help rebuilding of the fort. We're doing a little Kingmaker type action with the Fort and the surrounding area)

I will say the extra lay on hands was well worth the feat. However, the Oath of Vengeance never really has come into play for me personally. I am thinking of using the ultimate campaign to retrain out of my archetype (I think I can do this). To be fair, another player is a Holy Vindicator of Sarenrae and the 3rd is a Oracle of metal, so I get buffed/shielded and supported.


FangDragon wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:

FangDragon,

Thank you for your reply. You may have noticed that you already convinced me of the potential efficacy of the build, so this is more an academic discussion for us at this point.

OK, so lets change tack and examine the various options available for optimizing LoH (mostly):

Traits:
Magical Talent (Paladin) - increases caster level to paladin level - 1, particularly useful for Hospitaler paladins since normally their Channel Energy progression lags 3 levels behind.

Magical Talent is the gain a zero level spell trait.

Maybe you mean Magical Knack but that won't do anything for a Pally that doesn't have levels in some other class.


Human Paladin [Hospitaler]
1. Fey Founding, Greater Mercy
3. Power Attack
5. Selective Channeling
7. Extra Lay on Hands
9. Ultimate Mercy

I know of at least one frequent forum poster who would insist on Quick Channel in their build.
1. Fey Founding, Power Attack
3. Selective Channeling
5. Quick Channel
7. Extra Lay on Hands
9. Ultimate Mercy

Save up for Bracers of the Merciful Knight


Havoq wrote:


Magical Talent is the gain a zero level spell trait.
Maybe you mean Magical Knack but that won't do anything for a Pally that doesn't have levels in some other class.

You're right I did mean Magical Knack.

Magical Knack:
Benefit: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn't raise your caster level above your current Hit Dice.

In the context of a Hospitaler Paladin I believe it's intended to boost their version of Channel Positive Energy. My reasoning is the Paladins caster level is Level - 3 and I suspect the author intended Hospitalers to channel Energy as a Cleric of the Paladin's Caster Level but didn't say that due to word count constraints. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some table variance here, but considering Channel Energy is (much) weaker than LoH for self healing it's not really a big deal either way. I mostly view channel as being useful for quick and cheap party healing out of combat. (Hanging around for extended periods using a wand of CLW never struck me as a safe activity in a dungeon with intelligent monsters).

Channel Positive Energy:

When a hospitaler reaches 4th level, she gains the ability to channel positive energy as a cleric equal to her paladin level –3. She can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. Using this ability does not expend uses of lay on hands, as it does with other paladins.

This ability replaces the standard paladin’s channel positive energy ability.

Paladin Caster Level:
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3


What do people feel about a 1 Level Dip in Oracle of Lore for Side Step secret and taking Noble Scion of War? That way a non-archer paladin can get away with tanking Dex a bit, and perhaps get Unsanctioned Knowledge without taking a hit to Str / Cha.

15 point: 16 str, 7 dex, 12 con, 12 int, 8 wis, 17 cha
20 point: 16 str, 7 dex, 12 con, 13 int, 9 wis, 18 cha
25 point: 16 str, 7 dex, 12 con, 14 int, 9 wis, 19 cha

A possible (Human) castigator build might be:

1) Oracle of Lore - Fey Foundling & Noble Scion of War
2) Paladin
3) Paladin - Power Attack
4) Paladin
5) Paladin - Extra Lay On Hands
6) Paladin
7) Paladin - Unsanctioned Knowledge

etc...

I doubt I'd ever actually use anything this cheesy in a real game, but interesting to think about.


FangDragon wrote:
In the context of a Hospitaler Paladin I believe it's intended to boost their version of Channel Positive Energy. My reasoning is the Paladins caster level is Level - 3 and I suspect the author intended Hospitalers to channel Energy as a Cleric of the Paladin's Caster Level but didn't say that due to word count constraints.

I don't know if that was the intent, but that is not the actual text. A sorcerer/paladin/mystic theurge gets extra paladin caster levels, but does not get extra paladin chanelling levels. Class levels is one thing, and caster level is another thing. A Ranger does not get +2 levels to his animal companion with magical knack, just caster levels. In the same way, a Paladin does not get cleric levels to his chanelling, just caster levels.

EDIT: to put it in other way. A paladin (or cleric) does not gain more chanelling power with a +1 CL ioun stone. Because caster level, and chanelling levels, are different things


Bodhizen wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

I'm having trouble accessing the Guide on Google Docs. I can't download it, Save As, or even print it. Is something broken?

No. Please read my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

Thank you for your interest.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the answer. You've posted it as a PDF, but it's not behaving as one--as I said, I can't even print it.

Hope you can get it working soon.


Calybos1 wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

I'm having trouble accessing the Guide on Google Docs. I can't download it, Save As, or even print it. Is something broken?

No. Please read my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

Thank you for your interest.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the answer. You've posted it as a PDF, but it's not behaving as one--as I said, I can't even print it.

Hope you can get it working soon.

I must be blind as well. Other than an issue with his computer, I do not see where it says why I cannot download or print the file.


FangDragon wrote:

What do people feel about a 1 Level Dip in Oracle of Lore for Side Step secret and taking Noble Scion of War? That way a non-archer paladin can get away with tanking Dex a bit, and perhaps get Unsanctioned Knowledge without taking a hit to Str / Cha.

Depends. A lot. Your Flat AC will go down. You touch will go up. And your regular AC, well - that depends but it could very well also go down depending on what you wear. +2 Full plate is under 6000 gold, for example.

And - Oracle 1 is BaB zero. A DEX dump barely makes that back up in STR. You do get some zero level spells.


hey Bodhi love the guide but you made a big mistake with the Falchion
It should be: PFS Legal Falchion 75 gp 1d6 2d4 18-20/x2 — 8 lbs. S —
you have the weapon as a x3 crit, you should change that


Calybos1 wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

I'm having trouble accessing the Guide on Google Docs. I can't download it, Save As, or even print it. Is something broken?

No. Please read my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

Thank you for your interest.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the answer. You've posted it as a PDF, but it's not behaving as one--as I said, I can't even print it.

Hope you can get it working soon.

My sincere apologies. It appears as though I was under the impression that I had answered that question in this thread. I answered that question in the Guide to the Class Guides thread. To expand upon my comments there...

When I created the Guide, I noticed some problems while reading through it. I wanted to correct those problems (such as the one just recently pointed out by Mangon). However, I have hit a major road-block. I no longer have the original .indd file for the Guide due to a complete hard-drive failure and not being able to locate the backup. It has appeared to be a rather daunting task to rebuild the guide from the ground up using Indesign, and so I have not undertaken updating the guide.

However... If anyone has any suggestions on how I can edit the existing .pdf file and reconstruct it as an .indd without having to copy/paste/edit the text (which took a rather extensive amount of formatting in the first place), it would be incredibly useful in my goal of having a master file that I can easily edit and update with new information.

Thank you for your time and interest.


Hmm, sounds like you need the PDF2ID plug-in, which is a bit expensive.

http://www.recosoft.com/products/pdf2id


Bodhizen wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:

I'm having trouble accessing the Guide on Google Docs. I can't download it, Save As, or even print it. Is something broken?

No. Please read my previous posts on the matter in this thread.

Thank you for your interest.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the answer. You've posted it as a PDF, but it's not behaving as one--as I said, I can't even print it.

Hope you can get it working soon.

My sincere apologies. It appears as though I was under the impression that I had answered that question in this thread. I answered that question in the Guide to the Class Guides thread. To expand upon my comments there...

When I created the Guide, I noticed some problems while reading through it. I wanted to correct those problems (such as the one just recently pointed out by Mangon). However, I have hit a major road-block. I no longer have the original .indd file for the Guide due to a complete hard-drive failure and not being able to locate the backup. It has appeared to be a rather daunting task to rebuild the guide from the ground up using Indesign, and so I have not undertaken updating the guide.

However... If anyone has any suggestions on how I can edit the existing .pdf file and reconstruct it as an .indd without having to copy/paste/edit the text (which took a rather extensive amount of formatting in the first place), it would be incredibly useful in my goal of having a master file that I can easily edit and update with new information.

Thank you for your time and interest.

Thank you for responding. I am sorry to hear about that issue. I really like your guide - especially the layout, formatting, et-cetera. Not sure if it helps, but have you ever thought of using Foxit to redesign the document?


Bodhizen - love your guide. Yours are the best I've seen for Pathfinder. Truly excellent work. Love the Role-Playing section.

I was wondering if you were considering incorporating the Paladin codes from Faiths of Purity? I think it would be a great addition, personally.


TheRedArmy wrote:

Bodhizen - love your guide. Yours are the best I've seen for Pathfinder. Truly excellent work. Love the Role-Playing section.

I was wondering if you were considering incorporating the Paladin codes from Faiths of Purity? I think it would be a great addition, personally.

Thank you very much for your words of praise. I wasn't specifically planning on doing so, TheRedArmy. In what manner do you feel that they warrant inclusion? I do not want to reprint copyrighted materials.

Calybos1 wrote:

Hmm, sounds like you need the PDF2ID plug-in, which is a bit expensive.

http://www.recosoft.com/products/pdf2id

Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I don't have extra income for that lying around.

Osric Stonebrook wrote:
Thank you for responding. I am sorry to hear about that issue. I really like your guide - especially the layout, formatting, et-cetera. Not sure if it helps, but have you ever thought of using Foxit to redesign the document?

I have Foxit now, and I'm very... daunted... by the thought of having to redo the entire .pdf from scratch. It took a long while to put together in the first place, and I'm not really looking forward to doing it all over again.

If someone was willing to do a lot of the ground work so that I could polish, that might be a different story. I'm currently in the process of writing a fantasy story (I've done just under 50,000 words in the last month), so that takes up a lot of my time for creative endeavours. I simply wouldn't have time to reconstruct the Paladin guide from scratch.


I'd give a copy of your guide to anybody who wanted to play a Paladin or Paladin like character. The RP advice is just well stated and helpful.

Do you have any other guides?


I am (slowly but surely) working on an Inquisitor Guide. You can find the discussion thread here.


It's true that a reprint would be undesirable. In the RP section, you could mention which ones are best for each type of paladin, color-code them based on how well they mesh, and give an overall assessment.

"For the merciful paladin, Shelyn's code is excellent. Preferring to kill only the irredeemable, her paladins seek peaceful solutions, encourage finding the best in people, and attempt to turn evil to the light."

Something like that?


TheRedArmy wrote:

It's true that a reprint would be undesirable. In the RP section, you could mention which ones are best for each type of paladin, color-code them based on how well they mesh, and give an overall assessment.

"For the merciful paladin, Shelyn's code is excellent. Preferring to kill only the irredeemable, her paladins seek peaceful solutions, encourage finding the best in people, and attempt to turn evil to the light."

Something like that?

I feel that's much more a matter of flavour, don't you? I don't specifically remember advocating for specific gods to pair with overall builds, mostly because any would fit nicely.


TheRedArmy wrote:

It's true that a reprint would be undesirable. In the RP section, you could mention which ones are best for each type of paladin, color-code them based on how well they mesh, and give an overall assessment.

"For the merciful paladin, Shelyn's code is excellent. Preferring to kill only the irredeemable, her paladins seek peaceful solutions, encourage finding the best in people, and attempt to turn evil to the light."

Something like that?

i thought that was sarenrae's code.


Parts of it is. I'm not very familiar with Sarenrae's. Shelyn also includes things like protecting art. Both being NG, they will share some things.

I find paladins of Sarenrae more militaristic then paladins of Shelyn.


I am playing a Anti paladin variant called the Hellfire Knight, This is for the Way of the Wicked AP and as a follower of Asmodeus i needed to be Lawful Good. Any help with the Feat,skills and weapons would be helpful but my main question is what are your thoughts on the Fiendish Servant and what would you use as your companion?


Pikewolfgard wrote:
I am playing a Anti paladin variant called the Hellfire Knight, This is for the Way of the Wicked AP and as a follower of Asmodeus i needed to be Lawful Good. Any help with the Feat,skills and weapons would be helpful but my main question is what are your thoughts on the Fiendish Servant and what would you use as your companion?

Perhaps I am mistaken, but as a Hellfire Knight, you must be non-good in Alignment, and as Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, you would not be within one step on the alignment axis to be Lawful Good.

I generally don't look too deeply into 3.5 materials, so I don't have much to offer you in the way of advise.


Has anyone been able to view the guide lately? I've been trying for the last day and a half or so and it either doesn't display at all or is stuck on the loading screen. Is there a link to maybe a text only version? I've tried Chrome and IE to no avail.

Thanks.


The Guide seems to load up just fine for me via the link in the first post. Perhaps you need to update your PDF viewer?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
c873788 wrote:

the archer build but you can only choose one.

Also, no mention of Extra Channeling feat? This is actually a pretty good feat. While I think Channeling is a poor option for the Paladin, the extra Channeling feat translates as 4 extra LoH for the Paladin as written. That's got to be worth a green rating at least in my eyes.

Anyway, keep up the good work in the guide.

Keep in mind that those extra LOH are locked in to be used for powering channeling. They can't be used as Lay On Hands.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheRedArmy wrote:

Parts of it is. I'm not very familiar with Sarenrae's. Shelyn also includes things like protecting art. Both being NG, they will share some things.

I find paladins of Sarenrae more militaristic then paladins of Shelyn.

You may not have noticed, but Sarenrae's clerics, especially the Qadiran branch are intensely militaristic, in particular, with their fixation on the conquest of Taldor.


Bodhizen wrote:
The Guide seems to load up just fine for me via the link in the first post. Perhaps you need to update your PDF viewer?

:/ the .pdf is down for me too. And my reader is up to date


Adam Agnello wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
The Guide seems to load up just fine for me via the link in the first post. Perhaps you need to update your PDF viewer?

:/ the .pdf is down for me too. And my reader is up to date

The Guide is working properly, and there are currently 14 other viewers. The problem does not seem to be on the hosting site's end.


Bodhizen wrote:
Adam Agnello wrote:
Bodhizen wrote:
The Guide seems to load up just fine for me via the link in the first post. Perhaps you need to update your PDF viewer?

:/ the .pdf is down for me too. And my reader is up to date

The Guide is working properly, and there are currently 14 other viewers. The problem does not seem to be on the hosting site's end.

Hmmm, it looks like the problem is specific to chrome. What's stranger is that only some .pdf's don't work.

So solution for those having problems: use firefox or internet explorer.


Your Opinions on the SACRED SERVANT?

It's the only way I can think to get RAGE on a Paladin (via- Rage Subdomain)

And the summon planar ally Is hell useful.
You get the extra spell per day

A smiting Raging paladin wielding a furious weapon is scary.


STR Ranger wrote:

Your Opinions on the SACRED SERVANT?

It's the only way I can think to get RAGE on a Paladin (via- Rage Subdomain)

And the summon planar ally Is hell useful.
You get the extra spell per day

A smiting Raging paladin wielding a furious weapon is scary.

Summon Planar Ally is quite useful, though there are some limitations; ten-minute summoning time, the bargaining time, only getting it to perform one task... Still, as you say, it's quite useful.

However, getting the Rage Subdomain on a paladin at half-level is not all that impressive to me. You give up immunity to Charm and the +4 bonus against Charm to nearby allies. It's kind of a tough call here. Immunity to Charm spells and spell-like abilities is quite the defensive boon. I grant you that a smiting raging paladin wielding a furious weapon would be scary... +4 to attack, +12 to damage when raging and smiting, but at the cost of some defense and the fatigue.

Sacred Servant can, I think, be put to uses that are more advantageous to a paladin rather than using the Rage subdomain. Healing would be a good choice, especially if you're optimised for healing. Archon (Good/Law) might be another good choice for the Aura of Menace. Heroism might be worth it as well. I think it would require a more in-depth analysis of what you gain versus what you lose.

Certainly something to think about.


Bodhizen wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

Your Opinions on the SACRED SERVANT?

It's the only way I can think to get RAGE on a Paladin (via- Rage Subdomain)

And the summon planar ally Is hell useful.
You get the extra spell per day

A smiting Raging paladin wielding a furious weapon is scary.

Summon Planar Ally is quite useful, though there are some limitations; ten-minute summoning time, the bargaining time, only getting it to perform one task... Still, as you say, it's quite useful.

However, getting the Rage Subdomain on a paladin at half-level is not all that impressive to me. You give up immunity to Charm and the +4 bonus against Charm to nearby allies. It's kind of a tough call here. Immunity to Charm spells and spell-like abilities is quite the defensive boon. I grant you that a smiting raging paladin wielding a furious weapon would be scary... +4 to attack, +12 to damage when raging and smiting, but at the cost of some defense and the fatigue.

Sacred Servant can, I think, be put to uses that are more advantageous to a paladin rather than using the Rage subdomain. Healing would be a good choice, especially if you're optimised for healing. Archon (Good/Law) might be another good choice for the Aura of Menace. Heroism might be worth it as well. I think it would require a more in-depth analysis of what you gain versus what you lose.

Certainly something to think about.

Travel domain, anyone?

Silver Crusade

You say that a sword and shield paladin is a lack luster combatant due to enemies avoiding him. Is there no way to work around this? I mean, the iconic paladin in my mind is a powerful warrior wielding a sword and shield.


There is. Unfortunately, it means that you're not really taking advantage of the shield. Pathfinder doesn't have any useful "aggro".

Silver Crusade

could you "tie" a string to an animated shield so you could retrieve it as a swift(?) action after the 4 rounds end?


rorek55 wrote:
could you "tie" a string to an animated shield so you could retrieve it as a swift(?) action after the 4 rounds end?

Even a Weapon Corded weapon is a move action to recover.

Silver Crusade

eh thats fine.


rorek55 wrote:
eh thats fine.

It's fine, but it's not a solid tactic.

The problem with the aegis paladin is that she "power-turtles"¹ far too easily. With your high saves and your armour up, dropping your shield all the time to make yourself more appealing will probably happen far more often than having your shield up in the first place. While your shield is protecting you, everyone else is avoiding you like the social pariah at the prom. If you want to even attempt such a tactic, you'd be better off using a quickdraw shield and have the Quick Draw feat, but again... You'd only want to use the shield against the Big Bad Evil Guy, so it would be put away most of the time anyway.

There are precious few, but weak, ways of keeping your enemies focused on a power-turtle. The first is by the feat Antagonise, but the problem with Antagonise is that it only forces your enemy to make a single attack against you per day. After that, it can go back to snacking on the sorcerer. Even worse, it's a standard action, so while you're busy making the dragon turn on you, the dragon's minions are flanking you and preventing you from rushing to the sorcerer's aid.

The second way to get something to turn your way and bounce its weapon off of the power-turtle is by means of a cape of bravado, which only requires an immediate action (which is much better), but again, it only compels a creature to attack you once per day. The hill giant breaks his club off on your shield, and then foot-stops the rogue when he lumbers away in frustration, all the while, the swarming kobolds try to pick your pockets since they can't break through your defenses.

Then there's always the armour of insults, which can force creatures that fail the Will save to attack you for up to 7 rounds, and it works on every creature within 60'. This actually holds their attention for a decent amount of time, but it's only going to give you +4 to your armour class anyway, so it's less likely that you're already busy power-turtling in the first place. Should the orc marauders get a lucky stab in, you're spitted and turning over the cooking fire, but at least the cleric had time to run away.

Best wishes!

¹ "Power-turtling" is a tactic whereby the character in question becomes too difficult to hit and is therefore extremely well protected. While this is great for solo tactics, any wise GM or halfway intelligent monster will realize that they can't hit the power-turtle and they will avoid such a target. As your character is likely the meat-shield of the team, this is extremely undesirable; your foes will simply avoid you and go after "softer" targets, like your spellcasters.

Should there be a recurring villain, the villain will learn to send his minions against anyone but you, leaving you to deal with foes that are just as tough to crack as you are. Alternatively, they'll learn to swarm you with enemies that simply keep you busy while the softer members of your team deal with the real nasties.

In order to do your job as a meat-shield, you need to look like a juicy enough target that the tougher monsters will want to come after you, leaving the small goblin horde (for example) to get mopped up by your spellcaster's area-of-effect spell. Power-turtles encourage the opposite tactic, and your party members end up dying.

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