Well that's all good and all, BUT...Nowhere in either the Polymorph Spell, nor in Elemental Body for that matter, does it say that your EQUIPMENT is magically transformed WITH you.
I thought of that, and the conversation actually even occurred in-session. We/I decided that it would work like wildshape and your gear would transform with you or else the spell would suck major quantities of rear end.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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jreyst if they earthglide through the place keep in mind anything they pass on the way in they may have to fight to get back out. Perhaps when they finally pass into the demiplane it triggers an alarm or contingient word of recall on the warrior order of the priestesses and waiting for your PC's is a strike force ready to smite the infidels!!!
--Detroit Vrock City
Look at that, you are correct.
I'd be immediately revoking that kinda behaviour with some swift house rules saying its you and you only. Invisibility is the other one I'm not a fan of.
Polymorph is about changing a living being into another; not a living being and untold numbers of inanimate objects into a single other creature.
It's your game, houserule it if you want.
But it ruins Polymorph.
Who would ever use it for more than just goofing around if it required them to leave all their gear behind.
Heck, think of the GP value of the pile of equipment that would be left on the ground by any character high enough level to actually cast this spell.
Will you rule the same thing for Teleport - the spell affects you and not your equipment. The first time my 9th level group teleports home from a hard week in a dungeon and all our loot, all our gear, all our magic items, everythinhg we own stays behind in the dungeaon would be the day I retire from adventuring - I sure wouldn't want to face the next CR 9 encounter armed with nothing but a fig leaf and a grudge.
We could destroy all these kinds of spells.
Tree Shape: "hey, look daddy, that tree is wearing jeans, leather armor, boots, a backpack, and is carrying a scimitar!"
Flesh to Stone: "Ok, boys, loot the statue. Break those stony fingers if you have to get rings off of them. What? He's wearing a magical vest? Well, break its arms off then."
Or better yet, don't fix Flesh to Stone, let the gear turn into stone, but then fix Stone to Flesh: "Whew, Fred, the medusa got ya, but we turned you back. Now sit still while I chisel you out of what used to be your +3 platemail..."
Levitate and Fly: Well, you would rise in the air, but the spell doesn't affect your gear which is much too heavy for you - think like a helium baloon in platemail. You go nowhere.
Invisibility: "Haha, now the badguys can't see me!" -- "Nope, but they can see all your clothes, your gear, your weapons, armor, boots, hat, and the lunch you just ate if you unbutton your shirt, and they all aim their weapons at you since you're obviously a spell caster..."
Mirror Image: "Well, Steve, nice trick. Now there is one of you and 6 copies of your naked self. I kinda think the orcs won't attack the naked ones..."
Magic Missile: Sorry Dave, that target is weaing boots, pants, leather armor, long-sleeve shirt, gloves, a helmet, and a bandana over his face and neck. You can't target him because the spell says "Target: Creature" and you can't see the creature, just his gear, so you don't have line of sight to the creature inside all that gear.
Where do you stop?
I mean, come on, nobody could use these spells if they work like that.
That werewolf in the movies lost a pair of jeans and some sneakers. He didn't lose a pile of coin and magic items worth the entire treasury of many small kingdoms.
If you expect players to just look at the spell in the book but never, ever, prepare it for any reason, then change it to not include their gear.
Heck, change them all.
But if you want this spell to find any use, it needs to affect gear or it's worthless.
<...more smart stuff about not making the spell useless...>
Here, here!
I dont agree that it 'ruins' Polymorph - It simply ensures that Polymorph does what Polymorph was designed to do - and that is turn a creature from one thing into another.
The whole origination point of this thread is that a group of people were able to take a mid level spell and then subsequently use that effect to completely bypass serious parts of an adventure at a high level and simply walk through serious fortifications. Thats pretty over the top benched against powers of similar level.
Polymorph, as I have put it, would be a situational spell to achieve certain outcomes... taken prisoner? Polymorph into something nasty. Need to infiltrate somewhere? Instant ghetto Doppleganger. The applications are limitless.
"Who would ever use it for more than just goofing around if it required them to leave all their gear behind?"
As above.
"Heck, think of the GP value of the pile of equipment that would be left on the ground by any character high enough level to actually cast this spell".
Thats what he has 5 other party members to sort out for him.
"Will you rule the same thing for Teleport".
Nope, the objects are carried and worn and being moved. Inanimate objects are not somehow embedding and melding themselves into a living being.
"We could destroy all these kinds of spells".
You can destroy anything you want if you really wanted to. And if it ever came down to unbalancing the game and making things stupid then indeed they would be sacrificed at the altar of 'Common Good'.
Tree Shape: Certainly - heres a conundrum. Would suffer the same fate as Polymorph imo.
Flesh to Stone: Flesh to stone... Flesh... not Chainmail to stone.
Levitate and Fly: Would operate as normal. There would be enough 'force' behind the spell to propell you and your gear within the weight limitations. You are flying, your gear is strapped to you.
Invisibility: As I said, contentious here. What if Im holding onto a house when its cast, thats sorta 'on me', does it go onvisible too? What about if I pick stuff up later, is that invisible?
<...more smart stuff about not making the spell useless...>Here, here!
Dunno why you are such a fan, you just got your weeks of planning pwned by a one trick pony :p
I dont agree that it 'ruins' Polymorph...
I think it's interesting that pre-Pathfinder, "Elemental" was not one of the types you could choose.
From d20srd.org:
"The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin."
"Elemental" is not in that list.
also,
"...nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form."
Seems to me that earthglide is almost a sort of incorporeal considering you can move through solid objects.
So, pre-Pathfinder, Polymorph was not even a factor to consider. Now it is. That does not, of course, handle other spells like Passwall, just saying that this is new functionality that did not exist before.
So, pre-Pathfinder, Polymorph was not even a factor to consider. Now it is. That does not, of course, handle other spells like Passwall, just saying that this is new functionality that did not exist before.
While Earth Glide wasn't something to worry about, you still had a variety of unusual travel methods available with Polymorph (e.g. an umber hulk that can bore through solid stone).
Flesh to Stone: Flesh to stone... Flesh... not Chainmail to stone.
So in the classic stories of medusa turning people to stone it only turned their flesh to stone and she had a bunch of statues wearing normal clothing and armor and still wielding normal swords around her lair? Or did she have statues of stone men in stone armor wielding stone swords decorating her lair? Seems like it was the latter.
Invisibility: As I said, contentious here. What if Im holding onto a house when its cast, thats sorta 'on me', does it go onvisible too? What about if I pick stuff up later, is that invisible?
I think all of that is covered in various "Rules of the Game" and "Sage Advice" articles. If you can remotely consider the house as "gear" then I suppose that goes invisible as well. However, I guess that's why there are DM's, to make judgment calls on these cases. Some things have to be common sense. No, I don't think that anyone could consider a house as "gear", even if that person were a giant.
In fact, the spell itself (at least the 3.5 version- I do not have my PF beta book at work) specifically says...
"Items dropped or put down by an invisible creature become visible; items picked up disappear if tucked into the clothing or pouches worn by the creature. Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source). Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible."
So that covers two of your questions about invisibility.
1) Yes, if you pick something up it goes invisible if you can hide it in your clothing or something
2) No, a house would not be invisible, unless of course you were able to contain all of that house within 10' of you. If you were, somehow, able to pick up a house, and your DM *somehow* decided to let you call it gear, there would be a 10' section of it invisible where you were at.
I think, in general, you must admit that from a meta game perspective very few people would ever cast polymorph if they lost their gear every time. The fact that it explicitly states you do not though, should be sufficient.
While Earth Glide wasn't something to worry about, you still had a variety of unusual travel methods available with Polymorph (e.g. an umber hulk that can bore through solid stone).
Certainly true. Just saying that elementals were not an option before. And in all honesty I do not even know that I think they should be an option now. I can see turning into another generally flesh and blood creature, but turning into fire? or water? Seems like a far stretch from the classic concepts of polymorph and shapechange.
Hollow space around said room, other earth elementals patrolling the area, Adamantine golems in the room. I had one DM that made a dungeon where you could not cast any travel spells, walls of force or wind, force cage cast on anything that doesn't enter through the door. Runes and contingency spells are your friend. And just remember this phrase when you think it might be out of the realm of possibility, a wizard did it. It doesn't really have to be practical. If they think of something, let them do it, then punish them for out thinking you.
If the final room had say an anti-magic spell in place for the entire room as they entered it say hand first or whatever first they would instantly loss the effects of the polymorph right? But part of them is still in the wall, doesn't that mean death?
Also is the area the temple built an area that has been or was used for mining of metals/gems of any kind? If so they might have an issue with earthsliding right off thanks to natural deposits in the area. Of course that means they needed to know the issue existed before hand but anyway just a thought.
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As for blocking the spells you mentioned? Forbiddance covers all of those except for passwall. I didn't really think about how I would cover passwall but I suppose I don't have to now that the inner sanctum will be in a pocket dimension.
Okay, I'm going to try and say this another way, and then I'm done. DMing a mid to high level dungeon do you really expect a locked door to be something that blocks the PCs? I know that you have created this clever series of McGuffins for them to find in order to get past the door, but it all reeks of railroading to me. Here is how I would react as a PC to this door.
I would attempt to dimension door past it. When you block me from doing that, I would try to passwall or just disintegrate the wall next to it. When you find some reason that doesn't work (or I don't have those spells), then I would go to more mundane means. I'd have the fighter with an adamantine warhammer just knock the door down, or better yet I'd just have the party rogue pick all the locks! Polymorphing into an earth elemental and just gliding through the walls isn't even something I'd think of immediately and I give kudos to your PCs for coming up with it.
As to those of you saying that "smart" high-level villians would coat their rooms with lead, I call bulls**t. Smart high-level villains build rooms that can only be reached by teleport that have NO connecting doors. They build entire trapped, fake dungeons that lead nowhere while they do their dirty-work right under the sheriff's nose back in town.
As to those of you saying that "smart" high-level villians would coat their rooms with lead, I call bulls**t. Smart high-level villains build rooms that can only be reached by teleport that have NO connecting doors. They build entire trapped, fake dungeons that lead nowhere while they do their dirty-work right under the sheriff's nose back in town.
Sure, I agree completely. It's just a matter of degree. Lead lined dungeon is better than regular dungeon. Completely inaccessible dungeon is better than lead-lined dungeon. Not living in a dungeon in the first place is better than completely inaccessible dungeon. Etc., etc.
Here's the funny part. This group is apparently a bit more careful than you. Since detect magic is a cantrip the sorcerer casts it a million times a day (almost literally). They found the immense imposing doors and instantly scanned it for defenses. They noted several powerful auras (some nasty magic traps on the doors). After setting off one of them due to their proximity to the door they stepped back and decided to do some analysis. The sorcerer began plotting how to bypass the doors. At the end of that session they leveled. When the sorcerer chose new spells he specifically selected polymorph because it now grants the ability to change into an elemental.
I would attempt to dimension door past it. When you block me from doing that,
The doors already had multiple magical defenses. They were intended to be a *major* challenge at the minimum, or, if all went well, they were expected to be impossible to bypass. I don't know that that sort of thing is out of line, especially if you think about classic adventure / dungeon designs. Impossible to bypass challenges are meant to challenge the players to think of alternative solutions. The solution that *I* had in mind was that they could bypass the doors by locating the old discarded keys that still remained in some of the rooms. If they gathered enough of them they could get through the doors and do the final encounter. I specifically did not make the final inner sanctum in a linearly distant point, meaning, I did not care if they discovered the room early, as I wanted them to learn fairly early in the exploration that they keys would be helpful. I had clues in the very first room they entered by way of murals on the walls suggesting the key motif. In the next room they even found a key, though they were not certain yet what it was or what it was for.
I would try to passwall or just disintegrate the wall next to it.
Well by that time you are probably already either dead or worse due to not looking for and disabling the magical traps on the doors and nearby walls. The priestesses did not want uninvited guests.
When you find some reason that doesn't work (or I don't have those spells), then I would go to more mundane means. I'd have the fighter with an adamantine warhammer just knock the door down,
Again, dead fighter. Beating on ancient, evil, magically trapped doors like a moron is probably the best and fastest way to become mush.
or better yet I'd just have the party rogue pick all the locks!
Poof. Dead rogue. Coming within X' of the door causes all sorts of nastiness. The rogue and the fighter and the spellcaster are now all dead, leaving presumably the cleric. At least he's probably wise enough to leave well enough alone and look for other, not so "brute-force-ish" ways through the doors. Hell, why not try to capture an evil priestess and pump her for information? There are more ways to do things than always "I cast a spell and bypass the challenge. Next."
Polymorphing into an earth elemental and just gliding through the walls isn't even something I'd think of immediately and I give kudos to your PCs for coming up with it.
Sure. I give them credit. I'll even let that work in much of the temple, just not on the final room.
As to those of you saying that "smart" high-level villians would coat their rooms with lead, I call bulls**t. Smart high-level villains build rooms that can only be reached by teleport that have NO connecting doors. They build entire trapped, fake dungeons that lead nowhere while they do their dirty-work right under the sheriff's nose back in town.
I'm actually with you on this one.
As to those of you saying that "smart" high-level villians would coat their rooms with lead, I call bulls**t. Smart high-level villains build rooms that can only be reached by teleport that have NO connecting doors. They build entire trapped, fake dungeons that lead nowhere while they do their dirty-work right under the sheriff's nose back in town.
I played a mid to high level dark elf fighter/mage in 1st ed. A fellow players played a high level mage. Together we ruled and ran a small community. We recognized this made us vulnerable to attack from our many enemies because it gave us ties they could use against us. So using our above average magical power we decided to make a safe place to fall back to in the case we needed to retreat. We thought about a fort, or castle, but frankly we expected that any defenses we could put up or buy could be overcome by someone we needed protection from. So we got simple. We lived near a moutain infested with goblins. Not a threat to us, but useful. They built and created cave networks. We went into one, slaughtered the goblins, studied and reenforced an area deep in the cave, and then collasped the cave entrance. It all looked on the up an up to anyone who cared to watch, a couple of adventurers just killed some goblins, not big news. But what we really did it for was to have a safe place to teleport into. It was always kept dark, we did put up some magical glyphs and wards, we did have a golem there made out of flesh but what really kept it safe was it was away from anything important or tied to us. More then that we then went about at great expense building a tower of me made of special stone from our dwarven friends and a small keep for him made out of the same stone. We hired guards, put up some glyphs, basically we made it look like we were building defenses one place when are real place was somewhere else.
High end villians will do the same. Give you an obvious target to attack but have their real place somewhere completely else. Past level 10 it becomes very hard to funnel your standard adventurers into a dungeon and expect them to be stopped by doors, pits, walls, or much of anything. They will find a way around it, they have access to a lot of magic and allow them this, they have earned it with their many levels. But that doesn't mean you can't run a dungeon adventure for them anymore. It means you need to run one that is built and scary for them. At about 12 levels my cleric when on an adventure to the Abyss, you can be sure we didn't passwall much or teleport through doors that could go anywhere. See on the Abyss it's ok that walls stop you, your in the Abyss just by being their your special and clearly powerful. ((We were in the Prince of Lies we could not trust our eyes anyway and each room did appear to be a completely different plain of existance.))
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I still believe the elementals should be blind.
They certainly have no line of sight to anything on the other side of the earth that is all around them.
Earth blocks line of sight. Dwarves and Drow cannot use darkvision to see through earth and stone, so neither can elementals.
I agree on all of that. But without giving elementals SOME sort of sense, how do they move around? How do they know how to get from place to place? Really it couldn't even be tremorsense because while that will tell them if there is something moving near them it doesn't really help them know which way is left/right, etc. I agree that darkvision is a poor answer for how they get around. It would have to be some sort of "earth sense" that lets them detect pockets or maybe even just lets them "see" by way of vibration. They send sonar waves into the stone around them and by the vibrations that return they can form a mental picture of their surroundings. I guess that seems a lot better than "darkvision".
A different image used before:
Fish move thru water and see in water, do they?They do so for as far down as light reaches: Do fishes see anything during a dark night? Do they see anything e.g. at a depth of 500 yards?
What about small real world worms?
Do they have eyes? Can they see anything?
What I mean is: earth elementals aren't humans, they aren't even mammals, reptilians or fish.
So why should their perception or even their line of thinkimg be similar to ours?
Maybe any shapechanged PCs will face the challenge of being in an alien body which doesn't work the way they are used to?
Maybe earth elementals just rely on senses like heat sense or magnetism? Maybe they are like small worms and just crave for the next few yards of "yummy" earth and don't care for time, orientation or artificially created "obstacles" in earth.
So, yes, it could be a hugh challenge to find one's way inside this foreign element in an alien body. This could turn out to be a bigger adventure than overcoming the traps.
As proposed above, dungeoneering, survival, or druidic skills could warn PCs about the danger of disorientation inside a foreign element and elemental body.
Just my take on this topic.
Additionally the masonry could be rune inscribed and therefore effectively work the same way as lead.
If PCs really manage to overcome these challenges, they should be really awarded as if they had bypassed the traps.
Cheers,
Guenther
P.S.
"Baiting" PCs with a line of treasure/ xp points could be too much like shepherding players, but this is just my take on this.
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The sorcerer is the first to find a room! He pops out of the wall into a room with a 40' ceiling, falling to the floor for 3d6 damage (rolled d4 randomly to see where he popped out). Surprise round! Roll initiative against the two Golems. No, your party is not here to help you. Ok you run away. There is a trap at that door, another 3d6 damage plus a FORT save for poison. You only 16 Hit Points left? Darn, better hope the cleric chose a route to get to this very spot. Good luck dude. Ummm you have any other character you wanna work on while I take a few minutes with the Druid?I'd imagine that as soon as part of the character breaks into an air filled room he'd stop right there and not just continue completely out of the wall/floor/ceiling. Also, if he should find himself in a trapped and/or guarded room, what's to prevent him from diving right back into the stone and avoid the encounter (apart from the spell expiring, of course, but then it's one spell he needs to get off and into the stone he goes again)?
Druid fails to find a room and dies.Not necessarily, if I was the druid I'd just use my own ability to change into an elemental. Yes, there's a duration, but it's much, much longer and should be "safe" from the time limiting factor.
Good points. Let's see the fighter and rogue pull them off though.
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I have vague memories of the elemental planes having their own versions of solid, gaseous and liquid element upon them. So an earth elemental would be no more able to see though the solid version of its own element than we can through solid ground.
They aren't native to the prime plane - there is no reason for them to be particularly well adapted to existing here. I think earthglide works just fine as an ability with no way to see.
So in the classic stories of medusa turning people to stone it only turned their flesh to stone and she had a bunch of statues wearing normal clothing and armor and still wielding normal swords around her lair? Or did she have statues of stone men in stone armor wielding stone swords decorating her lair? Seems like it was the latter.
Invisibility: As I said, contentious here. What if Im holding onto a house when its cast, thats sorta 'on me', does it go onvisible too? What about if I pick stuff up later, is that invisible
Ok Jreyst, with regard to the medusa stories I have seen both. We are talking about the application of a 'spell' that has been written by a bunch of guys hanging out in an office somewhere though - not the legend and lore as laid down by a bunch of guys 2000 years ago hanging out in the town plaza. In this instance it is your job as a GM to tell the story as it best suits your environment; You might even say what stone they turn into...marble? granite? sandstone? or are they still perfectly human in colour and appearance but just set as a hard stonelike material?
With regard to invisibility it is such a contentious issue that I let it slide as long as it doesn't get abused. Which has always suited me and always suited my players... that being said its nice to be a player again as opposed to a GM after having the GM role almost exclusively for the last 25 years. The key question in any application of a rule is 'how does this benefit the game and the story' - rules lawyers need not apply (though I don't mind one or two munchkins)
Your story is your story, the spells in the book are there to facilitate gameplay in an orderly fashion within set parameters. Obviously the designers of the game have limited time and space and cant work out every contingency for every spell and then fit that in a book, which is where you as a GM need to set some guides yourself - to preserve balance and to have fun.
I find it rather surprising that someone who has apparently spent so long prepping up the ub3r dungeon crawl and subsequently been blindsided by a 2 dollar 'exploit' would be so insistent on discounting the solutions passed to him by several other people who have come up with some interesting ideas. Up to you mate, it's your game.
A few ideas come to me in reading this thread.
And what about brick and mortar? The ancient Egyptians didn't just carve into stone to make their tombs in the Valley of Kings and elsewhere. They sometimes had slabs of stone or brick lining the walls, painted over with various statements and images. So have some brick and mortar (or even large slabs of worked stone bound together along their edges by mortar), and require a strength check to break through the brick wall into the chamber. Even if they make the check (I'd give them a bonus to it, actually.), the bricks come tumbling down, making both a mess and a lot of noise.
I think this is the easiest way to deal with it. Nobody would be surprised at vast sections of the dungeon being brick and morter, even the floor could be tiled. Most ancient bricks were clay and straw baked in the sun or ovens (or alternately animal dung mixed with clay and baked). This makes them processed and therefore not passable. Yes, you could try to break through the wall (rules already exist for that). Got no equipment, so it's just raw muscle attacks. If you do break through, lots of noise, lots of mess. If the PC's are ok with that, then so be it.
Of course, there could be traps or magical traps on those stones, so busting through might set off a whole slew of traps. :)
As to those of you saying that "smart" high-level villians would coat their rooms with lead, I call bulls**t. Smart high-level villains build rooms that can only be reached by teleport that have NO connecting doors. They build entire trapped, fake dungeons that lead nowhere while they do their dirty-work right under the sheriff's nose back in town.
That is your smart villain that would think of that. The concept of what a smart villain is is open to interpretation by each GM. If one smart villain decides to line the walls of his demense with lead… well… that's that particular smart villain's solution.
A smart villain in my campaign would have multiple lairs, and a near infallible escape plan to teleport to a safe haven that makes the villain extremely difficult to track.
And the smartest villain in my campaign doesn't even have a lair… well, at least none that the PCs have ever found. He relegates himself to stealing from parties he knows he can handle… no risking heists on high-level PCs. He knows better. He doesn't kill them. It's far more profitable to let them live and go search for more treasure :)
Just saying… smart villains act differently from campaign to campaign.
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The OP has his solution (villain holed up in a dimensional pocket accessible only by using 1 or more keys on a special door).
If I were trying to slow down this group, I'd use an unhallow spell with a dispel magic tied to it. I'd put symbol of sleep spells all over the place that are tied to alignment or (something). (Or choose a different symbol spell, but sleep was the best when I looked, IIRC.)
Otherwise, if you don't want to do that, let them succeed and then don't hold back when playing the BBEG.
My party is going through CotCT right now and the group of 5 is up against the BBEG at the end of the chapter 2 and are in some serious hurt: the monk is dead, the paladin was down three times, the rogue is blind, the mage and his familiar are running away, and the sorceror is almost out of spells. I'm seriously thinking that they've got a TPK coming at the next game session. But I don't plan to pull any punches. From my pov, they failed because they didn't scout ahead or plan ahead for this encounter. And if I let them live, they'll know it and it'll ruin the accomplishment.
Good luck.
...This makes them processed and therefore not passable.
Here's a random question. You say that since they are "processed" they are not passable. I agree. I actually even tweaked earthglide now to say that it will not work on stone that has been cut and crafted by an intelligent race. The thing is though, I recall reading that somewhere, perhaps in an earlier edition, which is why I am making the change now. However, it does not say anything about not working on "processed" or "worked" stone now so I was wondering if anyone knew if/where the idea that it didn't came from?
If I were trying to slow down this group, I'd use an unhallow spell
The room did originally have an Unhallow on it (before it got shifted to the plane of shadow that is!).
I'd put symbol of sleep spells all over the place that are tied to alignment or (something). (Or choose a different symbol spell, but sleep was the best when I looked, IIRC.)
The thing is, 2 of the group have well over 150hp and one has 146. The other two (the sorcerer and the rogue) are the only two who might be affected but the sorcerer has Fort +20 Ref +15 Will +25 saves. That leaves the rogue (who just died two sessions ago and whom is the least broke character in the group). So the rogue would (maybe) be the only one affected by symbols, and big deal so the others wake him up (one way or another).
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If I were trying to slow down this group, I'd use an unhallow spellThe room did originally have an Unhallow on it (before it got shifted to the plane of shadow that is!).
Yeah, a separate plane is the best plan. But you could still put unhallow affects around the area. And put dispel magic into the unhallowed area with a symbol of insanity nearby (right under a sign that says, "The password through this area is ..."). Since your sorceror somehow has a Fort save of +20, I would recommend multiple symbols; insanity (Will) and weakness (Fort) seem good choices.
The thing is, 2 of the group have well over 150hp and one has 146. The other two (the sorcerer and the rogue) are the only two who might be affected but the sorcerer has Fort +20 Ref +15 Will +25 saves. That leaves the rogue (who just died two sessions ago and whom is the least broke character in the group). So the rogue would (maybe) be the only one affected by symbols, and big deal so the others wake him up (one way or another).
Those symbol spells I mentioned above are not hp-limited. I think I used sleep previously because I had a fairly low-level caster, but insanity and weakness are good, too. Just remember that someone that gets hits with 3d6 Strength damage likely can't move at all because of the amount of gear they're carrying -- be sure to enforce weight encumbrance.
Since your sorceror somehow has a Fort save of +20, I would recommend multiple symbols; insanity (Will) and weakness (Fort) seem good choices.
As you can imagine, he is not pure sorcerer. He has a couple of paladin levels thrown in (of course).
Those symbol spells I mentioned above are not hp-limited. I think I used sleep previously because I had a fairly low-level caster, but insanity /quotand weakness are good, too. Just remember that someone that gets hits with 3d6 Strength damage likely can't move at all because of the amount of gear they're carrying -- be sure to enforce weight encumbrance.
True they are not hp limited but he virtually never fails saving throws. The only way to reasonably affect him is to use no save effects or rays (his ac sucks major hind-quarters).
<snip>great ideas</snip>That all sounds awesome... except.. once again the rules get in the way. You could not cast an antimagic field that reaches into the ground, because emanations need line of effect. Once it hits the ground it stops.
Going back to the antimagic field: I've used that in similar cases. You can construct areas that effectively act like a "moat" around some secured area. The field doesn't need to go through the ground, just fill open rooms or areas around which you want to protect.
Also, for dungeons, keep the 3 dimensions in mind. The interior chambers of pyramids might give you some ideas.
...This makes them processed and therefore not passable.Here's a random question. You say that since they are "processed" they are not passable. I agree. I actually even tweaked earthglide now to say that it will not work on stone that has been cut and crafted by an intelligent race. The thing is though, I recall reading that somewhere, perhaps in an earlier edition, which is why I am making the change now. However, it does not say anything about not working on "processed" or "worked" stone now so I was wondering if anyone knew if/where the idea that it didn't came from?
I KNOW I have seen this somewhere, but I just went to look for it and can't find it either. I remember very clearly, however, that Earthglide does NOT work on earth or stone that has been worked in any way. I'll keep looking...