No, Gnomersy, that is a good thing. Player's characters should not be clad in armor from the moment a campaign begins to the second it ends. In my own humble opinion. Think of literature or movies or other media that tell a fantasy story. How often are the main characters actually wearing armor? Usually only for a major fight. Why? Because it is heavy and restrictive and confining.
I don't let any of my characters get away with sleeping in armor without suffering consequences. Sleep in armor two days in a row and you are exhausted. PC's shouldn't always be at 100% and prepared for everything, after all.
I remember one game that I ran, and the characters were invited to a royal ball. They couldn't wear weapons or armor (but one guy had a set of glammered armor and activated it to look like appropriate clothing; clever of him wasn't it?). So, when the storm broke in the middle of the ball, the party had to take the weapons of dead guards and fight unarmored. They weren't at their best, they were more than a little vulnerable, but you know what? Those were good things.
Heck, I've ambushed characters while they were taking a bath!
Trust me, if they are well-built and well-played, your characters can live without having that +3 set of elven chain mail, or the +2 tower shield, or even the frost brand greatsword he normally wields. And it will be a fight that the PLAYER remembers when all those other encounters flow seamlessly together and fade in his memory.
Master Arminas
Lots of people saying the same thing, random encoutners, counter attacks, etc.d going on the defensive is no control over what those encounters are.
That's not what I'm saying Asphesteros. I'm saying deliberately train your players to stop this.
That's different than "retaliate against your players when they do this." I'm saying to plan out a deliberate set of encounters whose entire purpose is to teach the party that their resources are limited and they have to learn to manage them.
It's a mindset that players have to get into. It's not just spells, it's magic items, tools and supplies, and if you want to get really into it, even food and arrows.
If your players don't get it, you have to teach them.
If you have a house rule to restrict the use of armor while sleeping, then sure, chain shirt pajamas may not be the best thing to do.
In the absence of such a house rule, everyone who wears anything heavier than light armor should sleep in a chain shirt, unless you can't due to encumberance or roleplaying concerns.
Whenever I have an issue with a slow moving party either resting, or dallying about I usually look at the fighter or Barbarian and ask. "Are you really going to rest again or what are you doing while the eggheads study/pray waste 9 hours till they are tired again then sleeping. This sometimes helps.
From my experience its typically the casters that apply the breaks and its because they're running out of spells. I've noticed that a lot of players aren't making versatile characters with options as much these days. Its more about how to make a character as specialised as possible, which tends to be more limiting in what they can do.
Anyways to add to all the other good ideas:
I'd so throw out some more consumable magical items to keep the character's moving along. For caster's a few regular drops of wands and scrolls should keep them armed for battle. They'll feel more capable then just being down to firing a cantrip or bolt. For the warrior types they'll want hit points to keep them going so healing scrolls, wands and potions is all you need. Just be mindful of how your group treats consumable magic items. Do they cash them in for more gold or do they actually use them. If they just store them away to turn into gold this method won't work and will probably cause more problems.
Consider your location and what it might do to PCs. Long periods in swamps and jungles increases the chance of diseases and sickness so have your PCs make Fort saves regularly. They'll know that eventually someone will fail so they'll want to get in and out quicker to reduce the likelihood that someone will fail.
Another good solution is to get a player in that won't sit still to he/she is down to her last handful of hit points. My brother plays like this and his barbarians used to get us moving constantly.
...
I still don't think having the players get ambushed after leaving X and camping will end well. Mostly I think it's because if they're camped anyone in medium+ armor is naked which means the characters you'd expect to carry the team when they don't have spells are at their weakest, it just doesn't make sense to me...
Agreed. That is why the first couple times I would have the badguys whiff their stealth roll and the party hears them trying to set up and gets a few minutes to counter them. They should learn from that and at LEAST move farther away, hide, post guards, etc... If they don't learn from that, the next one should hurt.
That's what they get for starting to robb the bank then going accross the street for coffee to catch their breath before finishing the job.
My party uses rope trick and rings of sustenance consistently. They have often tried resting when it is not appropriate. There isn't much I can do. They still keep watch since with watch its still only a 4 hour rest. Intelligent enemies are rare as well as most intelligent beings in my world are good. If it becomes a problem I plan on talking to them as players and appealing to their desire to have fun. It will not be fun if they are over prepared for everything and never tired or in fear of their lives. In game I've found that I cannot mess with the cycle without some serious tomfoolery on my part. Quests with time limits are all I've got.
|
My party uses rope trick and rings of sustenance consistently. They have often tried resting when it is not appropriate. There isn't much I can do. They still keep watch since with watch its still only a 4 hour rest. Intelligent enemies are rare as well as most intelligent beings in my world are good. If it becomes a problem I plan on talking to them as players and appealing to their desire to have fun. It will not be fun if they are over prepared for everything and never tired or in fear of their lives. In game I've found that I cannot mess with the cycle without some serious tomfoolery on my part. Quests with time limits are all I've got.
The room fills with unintelligent enemies wondering at how a rope can float in midair. They tug on it and swing from it having a great deal of fun until one of them tries to climb it.
... Intelligent enemies are rare as well as most intelligent beings in my world are good...
IIRC, even an unintelligent polar bear momma will follow the scent of whatever killed it's young for days.
... If it becomes a problem I plan on talking to them as players and appealing to their desire to have fun. It will not be fun if they are over prepared for everything and never tired or in fear of their lives...
Always (or at least usually) a good choice
That's not what I'm saying Asphesteros. I'm saying deliberately train your players to stop this.
That's different than "retaliate against your players when they do this." I'm saying to plan out a deliberate set of encounters whose entire purpose is to teach the party that their resources are limited and they have to learn to manage them.
It's a mindset that players have to get into. It's not just spells, it's magic items, tools and supplies, and if you want to get really into it, even food and arrows.
If your players don't get it, you have to teach them.
I agree.
My party uses rope trick and rings of sustenance consistently. They have often tried resting when it is not appropriate. There isn't much I can do. They still keep watch since with watch its still only a 4 hour rest. Intelligent enemies are rare as well as most intelligent beings in my world are good. If it becomes a problem I plan on talking to them as players and appealing to their desire to have fun. It will not be fun if they are over prepared for everything and never tired or in fear of their lives. In game I've found that I cannot mess with the cycle without some serious tomfoolery on my part. Quests with time limits are all I've got.
You can also try the carrot rather than the stick. Tell them you'll start giving story awards based on how many encoutners they can get through without a rest. If that might throw off level progression, modify XP elsewhere to compensate (which essentially makes the carrot actually a stick, but whatever).
If the PCs withdraw from a dungeon before "completing" it, perhaps whe they return they bump into another (NPC) party on its way out, having cleared the monsters and taken the loot. Sets up some good plot hooks and twists, and shows that while discretion may be the better part of valor, fortune still favors the bold.
Had this done to a party of mine once, it was great fun. Hilarious conversation with the NPC adventurers while we tried to convinve them to give to us the one item we needed.
I think that the 15 minute workday is only an issue if the DM allows it.
some things to keep in mind:
1. Time is always a factor- The longer you sit in a dungeon the higher your chances are of being discovered, attacked, trapped, scouted, etc. The more time you take assaulting a bad guy the longer he has to prepared and set traps that specifically target your weaknesses.
2. Give your party the right tools for the job- As Dm it's your job to ensure that the party comes across enough wands, potions, weapons to operate. This can get tricky but sometimes a party just doesn't have the tools needed to complete a job and it's the Dm's job to ensure that they were at least given the opportunity to get the right tools.
3. Nature always fills a vacuum- Just because you cleared an area does not mean that it will stay that way. Great you killed a Ettin, but guess what now there is a displacer beast just itching to move into his lair. Or perhaps he had a mate who is now trying to figure out what happened to her lover. Going back there to rest might sound like a good idea but...
4. The world is a dynamic place- If you make noise in room 1, the creatures in room 2 may come investigate or they may all grab crossbows and shoot the first thing that comes through the door, or they retreat and get the entire orc clan assembled against the threat. Any time your players are fighting and talking about resting remind them that they just made a lot of noise. Remind them that they are in a dangerous area and lighting a fire and chilling out might not be the best idea.
5. Other parties- Yeah you can rest but someone else might capitalize on all the work you just did.
6. Random encounters- They happen.
7. They've made enemies- As your party increases in level and defeated more and more evil doers they have made more and more enemies. Enemies that might attack them when they are least aware (read resting).
Case in point: After a fairly difficult battle with a mummy my players decide to bolt from the dungeon, regroup, resupply and then return to finish off the BBEG.
Well wouldn't you know it the BBEG is Evil and very proactive. While in town restocking supplies he frames the players for murdering the towns high priest. After a fight with the city militia and harrowing chase they go to the one place where the militia won't follow the dungeon. Now they are even more haggard, lower on supplies and spells and hemorrhaging hit points. With little choice left they confront the BBEG, he simply laughs, grabs the MacGuffin he came to the dungeon to secure and teleports away.
The 15-Minute Workday is a player mindset. Talk to your players if you want them out of that mindset.
I like that article. And that also answered a question of mine: why did they decide that in Pathfinder the fighter needed to do more average damage than a wizard not dedicated to blasting? I'm guessing as a mechanical counter to that problem.
Which also explains why the rogue's lost a lot of his usefulness. If the fighter's doing the damage and the wizard's doing the utility, then the rogue's lost both of his sell-points.
TOZ, that article agrees amazingly well with my own experience. As a GM I don't suffer from the 15 minute game day for the reasons he describes and others. Players in my games know that they can't control the pace of encounters. In my current PF campaign after a nasty battle, as the PCs rested in their Inn rooms, the local police captain barged in with his deputies, rousted the depleted PCs out of bed, hauled them downstairs and interrogated them. After keeping them up all night, the next morning the party had an appointment they had to keep, so they had to leave without rest and without restoring spells.
Two of the players in this group were inthe campaign where the kobolds kept the party from sleeping for two days. They took it upon themselves to explain to the new players that they better learn to conserve spells and magic items. Mission accomplished.
Your PCs have never tried the old Rope Trick?
My current PC party has a sorcerer who has not chosen that spell, so it has not been an issue.
If a party decided to attempt to use rope trick to have every encounter be a "spike" encounter, I see a lot of ways to stop that. Not the least of which is to have a scout look around and say "hey, a rope! Let's see what's at the other end!"
Followed by the scout's companions fetching their mage to dispel the obvious magic.
That's one way to deal with it. In my worlds, much as in this world, scouts and guards rarely operate on their own. Also my campaigns are rarely random dungeon crawls. Parties have goals, they usually are on a mission. Stoppng every 15 minutes to rest for a day would almost certainly mean not achieving their goals.
And again, its a mindset. Once your players understand that they are more successful and effective by playing smart, they tend to stop playing in ways that drive the 15 minute game day. They automatically play that way.
Fenris, why do you think the party would be able to do all this without being spotted? Why do they need to rest? Because they just shot their entire wad of haymakers in one fight. What are the odds that this wasn't noticed? Pretty slim. Just because they aren't attacked when they loot, mop up and cast rope trick, that doesn't mean they aren't observed.
Let's say I am a BBEG. I have minions scattered throughout my secret lair. I must be paying them, or forcing them or something. They will report. If they don't report, I will send scouts. If THEY don't report, I will find other means to figure out what is going on. There is no way I'm going to be ignorant of groups of my minions mysteriously disappearing from their report schedule for DAYS.
A lot of this 15 minute work day thing comes from the crazy concept of dungeons being nothing but a series of rooms populated by monsters whose only purpose is to provide adventuring parties with encounters and loot.
My worlds simply don't work that way. They never have and never will. By the morning of day three of the rope trick party, they would wake up to a n army of monsters just waiting for them to pop out. Go ahead, fill up all your slots! You're dang sure gonna need them.
Of course wandering monsters when you are trying to rest can easily increase the propensity for the 15 minute work day instead of decreasing it. I mean are you really going to push yourself to your limits when there is the possibility of one or more possibly quite difficult fights randomly popping up while you try to sleep. Even the non-casters would be silly to push to their limits. I mean sure if you have the HP you might choose to go that one last encounter before monster free resting because you think you have the HP for one more encounter. But if you don't know how many encounters you are going to have wile resting it really seems like a bad plan to do that last encounter instead of saving enough resources for the encounter that might randomly pop up while you are asleepThe 15-Minute Workday is a player mindset. Talk to your players if you want them out of that mindset.
All those are good points. Idea used to be, you'd want to compleat the whole adventure in one go, since the only safe retreat position was actually all the way back in town. Spiking a door to try to steal 8 hours rest was a desperation move, retreating to a nearby campsite only slightly less so, and was really the sort of thing a DM let the party do to cut them a break when they really had some serious bad luck and were likely doomed without it. Players were supposed to sweat a little as the DM rolled random encoutners, knowing if that 1 came up, that might be the end of them.
Later encoutner balancing concepts tended to undermine the original point of random encounters. They stopped being at best a waste of needed resources, and at worst potential game enders, there to keep the party moving for fear of getting one, and started being more like bonus xp/loot generators.
Give them a Survival check to notice the tracks of the other adventuring party that came and cleaned out the dungeon.
Do they rest in the same room with with bodies of what they fought. If so then something like an otugyh might come in and start eating the bodies.
The fifteen minute day, to my eyes, comes from players wanting to minimize risk. The answer is to not force the players to play beyond their risk tolerance. Either change the game mechanics so small resource expenditures can be recovered in a short rest or live with it, but don't force players to play a competitive game when they want to relax.
My party uses rope trick and rings of sustenance consistently. They have often tried resting when it is not appropriate. There isn't much I can do. They still keep watch since with watch its still only a 4 hour rest. Intelligent enemies are rare as well as most intelligent beings in my world are good. If it becomes a problem I plan on talking to them as players and appealing to their desire to have fun. It will not be fun if they are over prepared for everything and never tired or in fear of their lives. In game I've found that I cannot mess with the cycle without some serious tomfoolery on my part. Quests with time limits are all I've got.
Maybe it's fun for them. Is it not fun for you? One campaign I played in was designed for the 15minute day. Or even shorter. There was some exploration, and it would lead up to a ridiculously difficult fight in which the party had to expend all of their resources.
I agree that time pressure is the best way to keep things going, if you want the PCs to ration out their abilities.
|
<necro>
This problem has actually rarely popped up in campaigns I play in. We tend to focus on overland adventure rather than dungeons, and often in enemy territory, or dealing with an enemy army invading out country, us being some resistance group.
Often the fights are tough, so multiple encounters in a day is definitely difficult for the casters. But we never want to Nova, because The Enemy Is Always On The Move. If we fight with enemies, and any survivors escape to warn the main enemy force, we'd be pursued and hunted down. And preventing enemies from escaping doesn't always succeed. So anytime we have a big fight we generally have to escape quickly afterwards, and worry about where to find a place to hole up and recharge. I assure you, it's exciting.