Feelings on Psionics

[Sakuri]

Devil's Advocate wrote:

Apparently, the joke in my last post was more subtle than I thought it was. I thought "knights with glowing swords" was a dead giveaway that my "straight-up medieval fantasy" was actually...

** spoiler omitted **

No, I don't think subtlety was the problem. *sigh* I think it had to do more with me being too hot-headed to read it properly. Apologies. >//<;

Now I remember why I try not to 'gut' post.

[karkon]

Devil's Advocate wrote:

darth_borehd wrote:

Psionics would be fine for a science fiction campaign (like the Force in Star Wars) but not for the sword-swinging fantasy.

Preach it, brother! When I play D&D, I don't want Star Wars. I want straight-up medieval fantasy:

A setting where knights with glowing swords join forces with roguish smugglers to escape from plate-armored soldiers in rough-and-tumble port towns. Where heroes fight their way through dungeons to rescue princesses being held captive by black-clad tyrants. Where spirits and aged mystics guide young adventurers down paths that will pit them against wicked sorcerers that hurl bolts of lightning. Where corpulent slave lords force fighters to battle giant monsters in gladiatorial arenas, and armies lead by the heralds of Light must gather to destroy doomsday artifacts wielded by the forces of Darkness.

Star Wars Force powers have no place in that sort of setting.

LoL. I just skimmed that the first time. It really is hysterical now that I am actually reading it.

[L. A. DuBois]

So here's my question. If you personally dislike psionics - or pretty much anything else, really - can't you just ignore it at your own table and not get the book?

It's slowly but surely becoming more widely known that psionics got rebalanced in 3.5e so the only real issue that remains is a matter of taste. If you don't feel a particular rule (including races, classes, or anything else) doesn't fit in your setting then don't use it. Why should your particular preferences be a reason for something to not exist for anyone when simply existing doesn't require everyone to conform to it?

That said, Dungeons & Dragons (and by extension, Pathfinder) are pretty much designed for those who play to come up with any sort of setting they want. Faerun may not feel right with psionics, but what about Eberron? From what I understand, Dark Sun practically switches out regular magic with psionics and it seems to have been a particularly popular setting in its day. None of these settings are more or less D&D than any other.

[Hobgoblin Shogun]

I love psionics! I'm just uncomfortable with anything third party :(. It was some of favorite stuff back in 3.0 and 3.5. Magic with just a different enough flavor to make it weird and foreign (which is how magic *should* be IMO). I don't know about PF's Psionics. Makes me a little uncomfortable....

[master arminas]

This is for all of you cats out there who don't care for the mental arts. Ahem.

You never close your eyes anymore when I read your mind.
And there's no tenderness like before when you reply in kind.
You're trying hard not to show it, (baby).
But baby, baby I know it...

You've lost that psionic feeling,
Whoa, that psionic feeling,
You've lost that psionic feeling,
Now it's gone...gone...gone...wooooooh.

Now there's no welcome look in your eyes
when I probe for you.
And now your're starting to analyze th’ little things I do.
It makes me just feel like crying, (baby).
'Cause baby, something in you is dying.

You lost that psionic feeling,
Whoa, that psionic feeling,
You've lost that psionic feeling,
Now it's gone...gone...gone...woooooah

Baby, baby, I get down on my knees for you.

If you would only read me like you used to do, yeah.

We had a bond...a bond...a bond you don't find everyday.

So don't...don't...don't...don't let it slip away.

Baby (baby), baby (baby),
I beg of you please...please,
I need your mind (I need your mind),
I need your mind (I need your mind),
So bring it on back (So bring it on back),
Bring it on back (so bring it on back).

Bring back that psionic feeling,
Whoa, that psionic feeling
Bring back that psionic feeling,
'Cause it's gone...gone...gone,
and I can't go on,
noooo...

Bring back that psionic feeling,
Whoa, that psionic feeling
Bring back that psionic feeling,
'Cause it's gone...gone...

With profound apologies to the Righteous Brothers.

Master Arminas

[Windcaler]

If there are themes in fantasy RPGs that I can legitimately call myself a fanboy of its Psionics. I really like how Dreamscarred handled psionics, they did an amazing job keeping psionics with the same themes we've seen throughout folklore and mythology.

However, I almost want to see Paizo make psionics just to see how they would do it but I dont think theres anyone on the Paizo crew that has the experience with psionic themes or the interest in writing that material (I could be wrong but this is just my suspicion after seeing many comments over the years).

Now my feelings on Psionics are a little...radical I guess is the best word for it. People do not have to like or agree with my opinion but I feel that Psionics should be part of the core rulebook. With so many different editions of D&D and now pathfinder coming to fruition I really do believe its time we added in psionics to the core rules. I understand that people dont like them and they can not use them just as I dont like the gunslinger and choose not to use it in my campaign. Thats the great thing about GM edict, if you dont like something in your game you can say "no"

From where I stand the community is split into three basic camps. People who like psionics and want to have them as a widely accepted part of the game. The people who dont like Psionics and dont want them in their game. Then theres the final group (also the largest) which just dont think about Psionics all that much. I feel like these basic camps have fragmented the community so much that those who like psionics are a kind of outcast in the grand scheme of things.

Lets be honest, if youre doing online games its hard to find a psionic friendly group. In my experience interest in psionics is often met with open hostility instead of just a polite no. Then again one of the chief things I heard on the WoTC forums when 3.5's psionics book came out was "I dont want to learn a new system on top of this one" was probably the most common response to those who werent into psionics. I believe that if psionics were core material and learned along with the other core aspects of the game the hostility would end and the community would become stronger, more respectful, and just better overall.

Like I said, radical opinion...

[Majesticmoose]

master arminas wrote:

Metamorphosis: I probably wouldn't have even tried this route, except for James Jacobs statements in previous threads. Personally, I like the power point system, but I do see how it can be abused. And it certainly fits Pathfinder to try and use the same mechanics (if a different name) and a different theme. Keep on trucking, I know I won't show up at house and confiscate your 3.5 and Dreamscarred Psionics stuff. lol

Kelsey: I seriously doubt that Paizo will change their basic mechanism for spells to power points. Plus, as 3.5's Unearthed Arcana showed (with their experiment in spell points), it is hard to do a prepared caster like a cleric, druid, or wizard with spell points.

Master Arminas

One thin about your mindmage write up that tweaks me is that there are still some words that could be reflavored for a more psionic feel with out rewriting mechanics.

changing mentalist spells to psionic spells.
Even referencing arcane spell failure in the aromor prof section.

When doing a write up such as this, for flavor reasons, give the spells and class features unique names that mimic or include spell effects.

For instance, it's not greater mage hand but minor telekinesis.

That's not to say we need XYZ spell, PSionic (as that did always irritate me in the 3.5 days).charm person, psionic is a sort of filelr that we can avoid with this method of psionic class design.

I feel like you class is a bit too narrow for a base class archtype but it's headed in the right direction.

There's two cents for you. :)

[LazarX]

Jay159 wrote:

I'm not encouraging Paizo to publish psionic rules, I'm fine with what Dreamscarred is doing.

Do you have psionics at your own tables? If so, do you run transparency? What do you like/dislike about it?

I'm finding myself to be a recent convert to psionics. Not saying I'll drop Paizo stuff, but I didn't use to like it.

I like psionics but only in rare small doses. It's something I would use as a niche but I won't bring it up as a player choice unless someone asks and are willing to work with a background I have set for it.

The exception to this is a psionics based world where it pretty much replaces both arcane and divine magic. I would generally not include it in a more generic setting.

I strongly disagree with any notion of making psionics core rules. It's an outlier fringe of the fantasy theme at best. And it really is best where it's used to replace the main magic rules, not alongside them.

[ryric]

L. A. DuBois wrote:

From what I understand, Dark Sun practically switches out regular magic with psionics and it seems to have been a particularly popular setting in its day.

Dark Sun is pretty much the entire reason that I want both Psionics and 21+ rules for PF. By far my favorite published setting.

[meatrace]

ryric wrote:

L. A. DuBois wrote:

From what I understand, Dark Sun practically switches out regular magic with psionics and it seems to have been a particularly popular setting in its day.

Dark Sun is pretty much the entire reason that I want both Psionics and 21+ rules for PF. By far my favorite published setting.

I hear ya.

My 3 faves are Dark Sun, Ravenloft and Birthright.

[Mystic Lemur]

Kazarath wrote:

Also, after reading the rules, I actually find them easier to wrap my head around. Theres no spell slots and prepared spells and all that. Either you have the points or don't. Simple.

This +100

If I had to choose between the two systems, I'd rather Sorcerers and Wizards got a rewrite to use 'Mana' Points.

[Luminiere Solas]

here is how i visualize arcane magic and psionics.

there is an electrical current that flows everywhere. some have learned to tap in the current, see, and manipulate it's flow, thus providing supernatural effects. there might be other names for these electrical energies. Mana, Chi, and Ki are 3 known examples. manipulating these currents is mentally taxing on the vessel used to control them.

positive and negative energy are just oppositual electrical charges.

this justifies transperancy.

if you want to justify divine magic with this, i reccomend you remove the deity out of the equation and come up with something similar along these lines. as an example. through the power of pious belief, you have subconsciously learned to manipulate these currents. learning to mimic the miracles of the powerful entity you venerate so deeply.

[Shizvestus]

+1 Luminiere Solas, you hit it right on. I never felt that Psi was science fiction. I always saw it as fantasy oriented and played psionics since first edition. Sometimes I use psi in my campaigns and sometimes I don't, but Psi is always available to my players. I don't use transparency, and I love Dreamscarred Press for them Pathfinderizing 3.5 Psi.

[Set]

The only 'problem' I have with psionics is that it's a new word for stuff that's been a staple of fantasy for ages, like 'the sight' and 'scrying' and whatever.

Anything worth taking from psionics has already been stolen by the D&D magic system, from telepathy (detect thoughts) to clairvoyance to telekinesis to teleportation. Since the magic system has already shamelessly poached pretty much anything that would fit with a psychic system, fantasy psionics end up looking like rip-offs of the magic system that already stole their lunchboxes, and alternate ways of doing the exact same things.

As a result of that, 3.X psionics, IMO, felt like just another means of doing the exact same stuff, and with the levels and 'spells' just felt like a slightly different sorcerer build, instead of something like Green Ronin's Psychic or the GURPS or Trinity Psionics rules, which felt more 'psychic' than the 3.X system.

[Set]

Since editing or deleting the above post to add this seems impossible at the moment; here's the rest of that thought;

As for the fantasy vs. science fiction distinction, that's always seemed a bit bizarre for me, since psychic phenomena (clairvoyance, poltergeist activity, foresight, suggestion, etc.) has always seemed *far* more thematic and 'magical' than the coldly methodical scientific fire-and-forget 'magic' of D&D, with its extradimensional spaces and bat-guano-powered 33,000 cubic foot fireballs and amber-and-fur generated lightning bolts and matter-annhilating mini-black holes and spells that generate human clones and whatnot.

D&D 'magic' is all about laser beams and 12th dimensional physics and shunting forces between alternate planes of reality.

And yet, when we see 'magic' on TV (or read about it in ancient myths and folklore), it's often portrayed as pyrokinesis or telekinesis or teleportation or telepathy or clairvoyance or precognition or object reading, things that fit more into the bailiwick of psychic phenomena.

[master arminas]

+1 Set. Amen, brother, preach to the choir! lol

I agree completely.

Master Arminas

[meatrace]

@Set
You really ought to check out the DSP psionics stuff!
They do lots of things unique to psionics.
Psionics is more than just mental projections and parlor tricks.

[Shizvestus]

+1 to what Set says too :)

[Shizvestus]

What is the Filter that people speak of anyway, I am missing something there...

[Majesticmoose]

What if in a PF official Psionics, part of the mystique/advantage was that the psionic powers were not 100% transparent?

Now I realize this sounds BAD at first, but stay with me.

IF a Psi book (official one) comes out, it won't have much in the way of supplemental materials. The total official pathfinder Psi writings would likely be limitted to:

-Psi options book
-Companion piece for the region I can't rememebr the name
-Regional Primer

Because of this, Psionics will likely have some of the smallest possibility for rules hacks. If 90%of arcane casting feats can't be combined, the spell/power lists are restricted so that all the option combinations are reasonably predictable then unique advantages of psionics can be granted.

Advantages like ignoring some spell resistance. this could be something like treat all spell resistance as 5,10, X points lower when rolling you caster level check for spells.

An advantage could be not being affected by a globe of invulnerability or similar style spell.

Potentially even avoiding dispell and anti-magic fields.

Now this could all be balanced against lower effect levels. Blast damage reduced, durations reduced. Increased spell levels for mass buffs.

What I see is a magic type that is specifically immune /resistant to regular magic, but is also simply less effective in a normal circumstance.

It's a thought... Probably wouldn't work though.

[LazarX]

Shizvestus wrote:

+1 Luminiere Solas, you hit it right on. I never felt that Psi was science fiction.

I think it's too simplistic a dismissal of the problems people have with psionic magic.

Psionics with it's emphasis on mere concentration as all that's needed to work magic puts a definable stamp on the STYLE of magic. Moving things and teleporting by thinking of it has a vastly different feel than doing the exact same thing by chanting an arcane formula and executing a precise set of gestures or calling out an invocation to a higher power. These differences impact every aspect that gives magic character beyond being a mere game mechanic. It impacts the roleplaying aspects of magic.

The presence of psionics in a fantasy world has vast aesthetic impact in the experience of that world. And while some may express it in terms of sci-fi vs fantasy, I suspect it's an expression of discomfort over changes that psionics brings to the character of magic.