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Yes, but your Scorching Rays, Fireballs, Magic Missiles, Chain Lightnings and other low level damaging spells (or save-or-suck spells) will hit for lols and giggles on any CR 17-20 due to DCs and resistances.
Low level spells will succeed only on a natural 1 roll on most respectable monsters.
The magic system makes most low level spells useless in high level gameplay. In psionics, most powers can be augmented and made viable at high levels.
From a strategical point of view, will you cast a 4th level Enervation for 1d4 levels drain (that might be stopped by technical stuff like Globes of Invulnerability)... or start right off the bat with the big psionic guns (and keep on using them until depleted) that hit for 20d10 untyped damage / 40d6+X area of effect energy damage / Will for instant death or Xd6 damage / 1d4+1 per 2 points area of effect negative levels / other powers that turn the tide of battle in a single manifestation ?
Using psionic-magic transparency (the default of the psionic rules) augmenting a low level power does not change the level of the power. So, a 1st-4th level power, even one that a psion spends 20 points on, is stopped dead cold by a globe of invulnerability. That includes a pretty large majority of those energy-based powers.
Master Arminas
People that say magic and psionics shouldn't go together need to read L.E. Modesitt.
Haven't read any of his stuff. I'm assuming there is solid differences between the two, correct. I think that is part of the key between selling psionics and magic in the same setting. Give both a distint flavor in a setting and you can easily roll with it.
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Using psionic-magic transparency (the default of the psionic rules) augmenting a low level power does not change the level of the power. So, a 1st-4th level power, even one that a psion spends 20 points on, is stopped dead cold by a globe of invulnerability. That includes a pretty large majority of those energy-based powers.
Master Arminas
Fair enough, yet that only invalidates 1-4th level stuff. Still, the ability to spam your 8th/9th level 'I_win' button is a major advantage. Not happening only at high levels, as I illustrated in a previous post, the disparity begins at as low as 3rd level.
P.S.: For a class that should be on par with the wizard, psions can do some pretty different and very useful stuff; for example True Metabolism gives you regeneration 10/round for 1min/level.
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see elegantly proves the point that magic and psionics should never be mixed up. Broken systems are still broken.
Imho, if you like psionics, go ahead and roll a pure psionic campaign, nobody will mind. But when you try to cram these systems in the same setting, hilarity ensues.P.S.: Your average lvl20 psion can cast Reality Revision (psionic Wish/Miracle) 27 times per day. Your average cleric/wizard can do that about 5 times. With greater technical limitations like verbal/somatic components and being identified on sight. GG!
How often do level 20 clerics/wizards actually need/want cast Wish/Miracle five times a day? What's that? The answer is "almost never, outside of pumping intrinsic bonuses, which is done in noncombat periods anyway?" Even with the 459 power points it'd require, casting Reality Revision 27 times in a day would consume most of a level 20 character's expected wealth. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that when people draw up level 20 characters, they don't plan on putting most of their wealth into a single crazy day of frantic wishing. If the worst thing that anyone can think of for psions to do is to break the wishes/day cap, I'm pretty comfortable with that.
Really, anybody who wasn't misunderstanding the psionics rules (a lot of uncareful readers during 3.5's heyday missed that you can't spend an unlimited number of points at a time) and who has actually played with psionics and magic at the same table (that is, basically everyone who's ever played with psionics) knows that it isn't at all the case that "hilarity ensues". Psionics is neither objectively nor - and this is more important - observationally less balanced than the core magic systems, except maybe if you consider the ability to cast undetected to be the be-all and end-all of what a caster could hope for. If you're penalizing conventional casters two spell levels and two feats for silent and still on everything because obviously in real play every arcane caster applies those metamagic feats to every single spell they cast, because casting without being detected is important in every circumstance ever and also because non-detection is the only beneficial effect that those two metamagic feats have, then yes. I fully concede that a psion outclasses a wizard who applies silent and still to all of his spells, but most things do. If you pick out the exact set of advantages that psions have - and suppressing manifestations is one of them - then sure, psions are better than wizards at doing that. I don't think that anyone would argue that there are zero things that a psion does better than a wizard.
A class can be better than another class at an area without being hilariously overpowered. A fighter and a monk fill generally similar roles. The fact that a fighter would have to spend tons of character options to be faster than a monk doesn't mean that I'm banning monks from my table for making the fighter useless.
One thing I'm happy to concede is that psions benefits even more from a 15-minute adventuring day than conventional casters.
Free bonus tip to people without experience with the psionics system but who wish to make it sound unbalanced: check out the metapsionic feats. It's easy to make all kinds of really nutty-sounding claims with those bad boys in the mix.
No, don't use psionics at all.
It seems to me that it doesn't belong in the same universe as magic. Psionics would be fine for a science fiction campaign (like the Force in Star Wars) but not for the sword-swinging fantasy.
I have not seen the Dreamscarred product, but in my opinion all previous D&D versions of psionics were outrageously overpowered compared to magic.
SAYS THE GUY WITH A THRI-KREEN FOR AN AVATAR!
The psion certainly has the potential to be the most subtle of all the caster classes (caster, manifester: same bloody thing). One psion that I played was named Mad Mal. He spent three feats on things that had nothing whatsoever to do with psionics: light armor proficiency, martial weapon proficiency: scimitar, and martial weapon proficiency: short composite bow.
He would act like a caravan guard, an NPC warrior class, no less, and due to his low BAB would often be written off as just another flunky. Meanwhile, he 'move to get in a better posistion' and fire off a power, display hidden, of course. Great character that was a joy to play. And you almost CAN'T do that with an arcane or divine class.
Master Arminas
People that say magic and psionics shouldn't go together need to read L.E. Modesitt.
QFT
Also, Vance and Howard and Leiber and on and on.Also, don't use spells like Read Thoughts and Sending and Teleport and never ever use Mind Flayers.
People need to shatter this illusion that there has ever been, in the heritage of D&D and Pathfinder, any sort of deliberate separation between its influences, or between sci-fi and fantasy.
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Psi has no real relation to sci beyond the one people make of it. In fact, psychic powers are a concept that has been around at least as long as magic and has a place beside it given a chance. There is no reason to assume that psychic powers are sci in any form.
For example, all the powers associated with Indian and Tibetan yogi's.
Considered to be the Warrior Siddhi Powers:
Trikalajriatvam - knowledge of the past, present and future.
Advandvam: to be beyond pleasure-pain, cold-heat, soft-hard. Non-duality.
Parachittadyabhijnata: knowledge of dreams and the mind.
Pratishtambah: control of effect of fire, wind, water, poisons, weapons, and the sun.
Aparajayah: Victorious. Not able to be defeated.The next are considered only to occur as the heart begins to purify and flower:
Anumimattvam: hunger, thirst, grief, sorrow, infatuation, delusion and confusion of the mind, old age and death do not harm the body.
Doorshravan: to hear, sitting at one place, speech from however distant a place.
Dudarshan: to see simultaneously events and things in all the realms.
Manojava: the body can travel at the speed of thought to any place.
Kaamaroopa: to assume any form. Shapeshifting.
Parakayapravesh: ability to enter into another's body, whether they are dead or alive.
Swachchandamrutyu: to die at one's own will, death having no control over one.
Sahakridanudarshanam: to see the sports of gods in heaven and have capacity and prowess to participate in it.
Yathaasamkalpa samsiddhi: to attain whatever is desired.
Ajnaapratihataagatih: whereby one's command and movement have no obstructionThese are considered to be the highest siddhi powers:
Anima: the reduction of one's form to one atom. Invisibility
Mahima/Garima: the body can be made to be very heavy.
Laghima: the body can be made to be extremely light
Prapti: abilty to acquire objects of sense pertaining to the respective organs.
Prakaashya: to see invisible things in other realms.
Ishitaa: to stimulate bodies and creatures Control of forces of nature.
Vashita: to have control or dominion over the senses.
Yatkamastadavasyati: To obtain joy by willing it so. The cessation of misery and desire. This is considered to be the highest state of bliss
Looks a lot like the powers and abilties of magic.
Psi has no real relation to sci beyond the one people make of it. In fact, psychic powers are a concept that has been around at least as long as magic and has a place beside it given a chance. There is no reason to assume that psychic powers are sci in any form.
For example, all the powers associated with Indian and Tibetan yogi's.
...Considered to be the Warrior Siddhi Powers:
Trikalajriatvam - knowledge of the past, present and future.
Advandvam: to be beyond pleasure-pain, cold-heat, soft-hard. Non-duality.
Parachittadyabhijnata: knowledge of dreams and the mind.
Pratishtambah: control of effect of fire, wind, water, poisons, weapons, and the sun.
Aparajayah: Victorious. Not able to be defeated.The next are considered only to occur as the heart begins to purify and flower:
Anumimattvam: hunger, thirst, grief, sorrow, infatuation, delusion and confusion of the mind, old age and death do not harm the body.
Doorshravan: to hear, sitting at one place, speech from however distant a place.
Dudarshan: to see simultaneously events and things in all the realms.
Manojava: the body can travel at the speed of thought to any place.
Kaamaroopa: to assume any form. Shapeshifting.
Parakayapravesh: ability to enter into another's body, whether they are dead or alive.
Swachchandamrutyu: to die at one's own will, death having no control over one.
Sahakridanudarshanam: to see the sports of gods in heaven and have capacity and prowess to participate in it.
Yathaasamkalpa samsiddhi: to attain whatever is desired.
Ajnaapratihataagatih: whereby one's command and movement have no obstructionThese are considered to be the highest siddhi powers:
Anima: the reduction of one's form to one atom. Invisibility
Mahima/Garima: the body can be made to be very heavy.
Laghima: the body can be made to be extremely light
Prapti: abilty to acquire objects of sense pertaining to the respective organs.
Prakaashya: to see invisible things in other realms.
That's pretty awesome. +1. I've always imagined the Qinggong Monk as fitting in with the Yogi Archetype.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yawn The Psionics are over powered again?
Let's see... Psionic powers can't be heightened so your globes never get old.
If see's example of Telepaths getting Dominate earlier than Wizards is an example of 'broken' Then I guess he's terrified of the mighty bard. After all hideous laughter comes to a bard at first level, while the wizard needs to wait until 3rd. OMG, bards are over powered.
As was pointed out above, 25k GP adds up quick. Not to mention the spell caster has his (free scaling) 1st-8th level spells still.
Oh, and don't forget, psions can only apply one metapsionic feat, two if they burn other feats.
I understand the worry that a balanced, scalable system might appeal overpowered to people who don't understand it. For the rest of us, it's a beautiful system.
Yawn The Psionics are over powered again?
Let's see... Psionic powers can't be heightened so your globes never get old.
If see's example of Telepaths getting Dominate earlier than Wizards is an example of 'broken' Then I guess he's terrified of the mighty bard. After all hideous laughter comes to a bard at first level, while the wizard needs to wait until 3rd. OMG, bards are over powered.
As was pointed out above, 25k GP adds up quick. Not to mention the spell caster has his (free scaling) 1st-8th level spells still.
Oh, and don't forget, psions can only apply one metapsionic feat, two if they burn other feats.
I understand the worry that a balanced, scalable system might appeal overpowered to people who don't understand it. For the rest of us, it's a beautiful system.
Thank you sir.
For the records, Bards ARE OP!Actually, at this point, due to personal experience in a RotRL game I'm playing in, if any class is OP it's a Slumber Hex witch. Like every encounter is a joke! And he can do that ALL DAY LONG. No power points involved.
I think that the problem may people have with 3.5 and Dreamscarred Press Psionics is just the idea of the power points. Look how easy it is to make a solid conversion of the psion to a spell slot mechanic. James Jacobs himself has said on these boards, that IF Paizo decides to develop psionics, it will be something along these lines. Psionics is simply another type of magic. Solves everything.
Now, I don't pretend that some people will be vehemently against this type of a conversion. Psi-fans are very, very vocal and loyal to the concept. But, from the point of view of making all magic (and I hold that psionics is magic) work by using the same mechanic, it is understandable. It gets rid of all of the confusion over folks who don't realize you can't spend more points than your manifester level on a single power, who hate that their powers don't auto-scale as they advance in level, and it completely eliminates the need for duplicate powers/spells. Just as a cleric's divine dispel magic has the same game effect as a wizard's arcane dispel magic, so too does the mind mage's mentalism dispel magic.
It needs to be developed and tested and the kinks worked out, but I really feel that this type of class is what lies in the future for psionics and mental powers in Pathfinder.
Try it before giving the knee-jerk reaction of psionics are bad! bad I say! And those who use psionics, give this version a chance before calling it a complete and unnecessary nerf. After all, everything changes over time; nothing is truely static. And psions, mind mages, should know that better than anyone else.
Let me know what you think, and by all means, let us continue this civil discussion.
Master Arminas
The mind is a powerful thing—as powerful for a select few as piety and study. The mind mage seeks to harness that power, to understand it, and through it to exert his influence on the world around him. For the most part, the mind mage is a subtle individual who gently nudges others into doing his will. But when angered, the mind mage is capable of terrible destruction with his command of fire and purely kinetic energies. A student of the ‘third’ domain of magic (Mentalism), mind mage’s are often mistaken for more common sorcerers, wizards, and magi—which is often how those who wield the power of the mind prefer it.
Role: The Mind Mage is a powerful full-level caster of magic, akin to the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard. Although his skill list is not quite as broad as that of the Sorcerer or Wizard, the Ming Mage receives a number of special abilities that augment his powers and make him a force not to be taken lightly. Depending on the exact spell selection the character makes, the Mind Mage can carry out many different roles, from dealing damage to serving as the face of a party to using utility and transportation magic to move from one place to the next. This class, as much as any full-spellcaster, is one that demands an inventive and intelligent player to gain its fullest benefit.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d6
Base Attack Bonus: Low
Good Saving Throws: Will
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The mind mage is proficient with all simple weapons. He is not proficient with any type of armor or with a shield of any kind. However, a mind mage’s spells are not subject to arcane spell failure and the mind mage may freely cast when wearing armor if he takes the appropriate feats.
CLASS FEATURES
Bonus Feats: A mind mage gains a bonus feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level which he may select from the following list: Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Light Armor Proficiency; Martial Weapon Proficiency, Medium Armor Proficiency, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, or any metamagic feat.
Spells: A mind mage casts mentalism spells drawn from the mind mage spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a mind mage must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a mind mage’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the mind mage’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a mind mage can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as that of the Sorcerer class. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
The mind mage’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A mind mage begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the mind mage’s choice. At each new mind mage level, he gains one or more new spells, as per the Sorcerer’s spells known table. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a mind mage knows is not affected by his Intelligence score.)
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered mind mage level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a mind mage can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the mind mage “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level mind mage spell the mind mage can cast. A mind mage may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A mind mage need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
Mentalism spells are identical to their listed arcane and divine counterparts, except as listed here. Mentalism spells require no components (verbal, somatic, or material) or focus. If a spell on the mentalism list requires expensive or unique components or focuses (in excess of 1 gp) a mind mage must possess those specific components or focuses to cast the spell. Mentalism spells are not subject to arcane spell failure. Mentalism spells do provoke attacks of opportunity like all other spells when cast.
Talents (Su): Mind mages learn a number of talents, or 0-level spells, as noted under ‘Spells Known’. These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Telepath (Su): A mind mage gains telepathy out to 100 feet. He may communicate with another living creature that has a language, even if the mind mage and the creature do not share a language in common. A mind mage can only communicate with one creature in this fashion at a time.
Greater Mage Hand (Sp): A mind mage of 3rd-level may use mage hand, as per the spell, as a spell-like ability at will. This ability allows the mind mage to manipulate both mundane and magical objects weighing up to 5 lbs. per mind mage level.
Greater Telekinesis (Su): At 10th-level, a mind mage gains telekinesis as a bonus spell known. The mind mage may manipulate a greater amount of weight than other casters with this spell (50 lbs. per caster level rather than the listed 25 lbs) and the cap on maximum weight allowed is extended to 20th level, rather than 15th. When using telekinesis to perform a combat maneuver, a mind mage gains a +4 bonus on his roll.
Mind Probe (Sp): A 13th-level mind mage may, once per day, probe the mind of a living creature. This ability requires that the mind mage touch the creature and takes one minute of concentration to activate. Once activated, the mind mage may ask the creature one question per round. The creature gets a Will save (DC 10 + one-half the mind mage’s level + the mind mage’s Intelligence modifier) for each question. If the save is successful, the creature does not have to answer. If the creature fails the save, he must answer the question truthfully and to the best of his knowledge. The mind mage may repeat the same question in order to force an answer against which the creature has already saved once; each question allows a Will save on the part of the subject.
The mind mage may maintain his mind probe for two rounds per level. At the conclusion of this ability, the mind mage is fatigued for the next 10 minutes.
At 15th-level, and again at 18th-level, the mind mage gains one additional daily use of this ability.
Probability Travel (Su): At 13th-level, a mind mage using plane shift, teleport, or any other form of transportation magic that has a chance of arriving off target, reduces the percentile rolls for distance or mishap by his mind mage class level. For example, a 13th-level mind mage casts plane shift. Normally a character would roll 5d% for the distance in miles from his designated targeted; the mind mage, however, would apply a modifier of -65 to that roll (5 x 13), with any result of 0 or less allowing for the mind mage to arrive precisely where he intended.
Psilord (Su): At 20th-level, a mind mage gains a +2 bonus to the DC of any spell mind-affecting, fire-based, or telekinetic spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that he uses. This bonus stacks with those received from Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus.
The mind mage also receives a +2 bonus on all caster level checks made to penetrate Spell Resistance when using a mind-affecting, fire-based, or telekinetic spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability. This bonus stacks with those received from Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.
When the mind mage casts the spell telekinesis, he may affect a single object weighing up to 2,000 lbs, regardless of the normal weight limits imposed by the spell. Multiple objects are still restricted to the limits of the mind mage’s greater telekinesis.
When using his probability travel ability, the mind mage reduces the distance from his designated target or the mishap chance by one-and-a-half times his class level, applied to each percentile roll (see above).
0-level Spells: Bleed; Daze; Detect Magic; Detect Poison; Guidance; Know Direction; Mage Hand; Mending; Message; Open/Close; Prestidigitation; Read Magic; Stabilize
1st-level Spells: Burning Hands; Calm Animals; Charm Animal; Charm Person; Command; Comprehend Languages; Confusion, Lesser; Elfsight*; Endure Elements; Expeditious Retreat; Feather Fall; Grease; Hold Portal; Identify; Jump; Mage Armor; Mind Thrust*; Produce Flame; Shield; Sleep
2nd-level Spells: Animal Affinity*; Calm Emotions; Chill Metal; Cure Light Wounds; Darkvision; Daze Monster; Delay Poison; Detect Thoughts; Ego Whip*; Flame Blade; Heat Metal; Hold Animal; Invisibility; Knock; Levitate; Locate Object; Make Whole; Protection from Arrows; Pyrotechnics; Scorching Ray; See Invisibility; Spider Climb; Touch of Idiocy; Undetectable Alignment
3rd-level Spells: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance; Cure Moderate Wounds; Delay Poison; Deep Slumber; Discern Lies; Dispel Magic; Dominate Animal; Fireball; Glibness; Hold Person; Nondetection; Psionic Blast*; Protection from Energy; Quench; Restoration, Lesser; Scrying; Suggestion; Tongues; Water Breathing
4th-level Spells: Charm Monster; Confusion; Crushing Despair; Cure Serious Wounds; Detect Scrying; Dimension Door; Fire Shield (warm only); Freedom of Movement; Geas, Lesser; Globe of Invulnerability, Intellect Fortress*; Lesser; Invisibility, Greater; Locate Creature; Phantasmal Killer; Remove Disease; Wall of Fire
5th-level Spells: Break Enchantment; Command, Greater; Cone of Fire (as Cone of Cold, but fire damage); Cure Critical Wounds; Dominate Person; Dream; Feeblemind; Hold Monster; Interposing Hand; Magic Jar; Modify Memory; Nightmare; Neutralize Poison; Passwall; Permanency; Restoration; Rusting Grasp; Sending; Telekinesis; Telepathic Bond; Teleport; Tower of Iron Will*
6th-level Spells: Air Walk; Antimagic Field; Contingency; Disintegrate; Dispel Magic, Greater; Forceful Hand; Geas/Quest; Globe of Invulnerability; Plane Shift; Scrying, Greater; Suggestion, Mass; True Seeing
7th-level Spells: Delayed Blast Fireball; Ethereal Jaunt; Fire Storm; Grasping Hand; Hold Person, Mass; Insanity; Spell Turning; Teleport, Greater
8th-level Spells: Charm Monster, Mass; Clenched Fist; Clone; Irresistible Dance; Moment of Prescience; Regenerate
9th-level Spells: Astral Projection; Crushing Hand; Dominate Monster; Etherealness; Foresight; Freedom; Hold Monster, Mass; Mage’s Disjunction; Meteor Swarm
*New spell, see below for details.
Animal Affinity
Transmutation
Level: Mind Mage 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level
You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to a single ability score of your choice. Select Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma when you cast this spell. You may take a standard action at any point during the spell’s duration to switch the enhancement bonus to another ability score of your choice. You may only have one animal affinity spell in effect on your person at any one time. Casting the spell a second time automatically dispels the first casting and resets the duration.
Ego Whip
Enchantment [Mind-affecting]
Level: Mind Mage 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
You unleash a powerful bolt of mental energy that strikes a single target. You must make a ranged touch attack; if you are successful, the target suffers 1d8 points of damage per caster level (maximum 5d8) and is staggered for one round. A successful Will saving throw negates the staggered condition.
Elfsight
Transmutation
Level: Mind Mage 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level
You gain low-light vision (as an elf) for the duration of the spell, as well as a +2 bonus on vision-based Perception checks.
Intellect Fortress
Abjuration
Level: Mind Mage 4
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20 feet
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No
You generate a fortress of thought so strong that it offers protection to you and everyone around you. You and all allies within the area of this spell’s effect gain spell resistance equal to 12 + your caster level. If an ally leaves the area of effect, they lose the protection offered by this spell. If the spell’s duration is still active and they return to within 20-feet of you, they once again receive the benefits.
Mind Thrust
Enchantment [Mind-affecting]
Level: Mind Mage 1
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half
Spell Resistance: Yes
You project a bolt of mental force that stabs into your target’s mind, causing intense pain and damage. You inflict 1d8 points of damage for every two caster levels you possess (maximum of 5d8 at 9th-level). The target can make a Will saving throw to reduce the damage that he suffers by one-half.
Psionic Blast
Enchantment [Mind-affecting]
Level: Mind Mage 3
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped burst extended out to 60 ft.
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will half
Spell Resistance: Yes
You project a wave of mental energy that inflicts 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to all creatures in the area of effect. A successful Will saving throw will reduce the damage taken by one-half.
Tower of Iron Will
Abjuration
Level: Mind Mage 5
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: 20 feet
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread centered on you
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No
You encase yourself and your allies in a shimmering bastion of telekinetic force. The tower of iron will can sustain 10 points of damage per caster level (maximum of 150 points) before it collapses. Those within the tower suffer no damage from attacks initiating outside the tower until the duration expires or the tower suffers sufficient damage to collapse. Those inside the tower can freely exit, but any creatures outside the area of effect (hostile or allied) cannot enter the area until the duration expires or the tower has been breached by sufficient damage.
Truth. I tend to forget that those power point draining powers, creatures, and items exist because I don't use them in my game. But they do. And for a reason.
MA
Arminas, I'd go the opposite way and apply the psionic casting system to arcane and divine magic. I'd LOVE to play a wizard using a point system.
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Psionics is as medieval and fantasy as swords or dragons. But why it doesn't seem so is the historical oddity of Europe being under the control of a monotheistic religion which didn't allow for alternative belief systems. Essentially psionics are how people who have monist elements to there belief systems explain the occurrence of controllable supernatural happenstances.
Sufism, Yogis, Gnostic Christians, Buddhist all fit well with in the psionic realm.
As far as adapting psionic to be a variety sorcerer that just seems to be cruel. Those who use psionics have always had there own system, which in itself expresses psionics better then to the vancian system. To others less concerned about flavour it provides opportunity to play a non vancian caster.
I can understand psionics not being everyone’s variety of fun. But it is my variety. And has just as much place as Rakshasas, ninjas, splint mail, wish spells. All of which are non european but have found an unquestioned home in the game.
I haven't read the thread (recipe for irrelevance and/or repitition, I know but that's life today). However, in my view, if paizo decide to incorporate psionics they should focus on the flavor material.
I'm sure there are lots of arguments to be made about mechanical systems and design. Nonetheless, the reason I've never liked psionics is that it's never been explained to me in a way which distinguished it from magic. I didn't see any flavor need for it, so I don't care whether the power point system is cool, elegant, balanced or broken...none of that will matter to whether I include it in my golarion or not.
Also it my impression that psionic advocates aren't beholden to power points. But what they don't want is to be just another type of sorcerer. I know myself if it was done as variety of at will spell like abilities of a weaker nature then the equivalent spell caster could I would fine. Or into a well made ki point caster who’s powers weren't tried to slots but gained as the character advanced levels for example.
Metamorphosis: I probably wouldn't have even tried this route, except for James Jacobs statements in previous threads. Personally, I like the power point system, but I do see how it can be abused. And it certainly fits Pathfinder to try and use the same mechanics (if a different name) and a different theme. Keep on trucking, I know I won't show up at house and confiscate your 3.5 and Dreamscarred Psionics stuff. lol
Kelsey: I seriously doubt that Paizo will change their basic mechanism for spells to power points. Plus, as 3.5's Unearthed Arcana showed (with their experiment in spell points), it is hard to do a prepared caster like a cleric, druid, or wizard with spell points.
Master Arminas
Why is hard to do prepared casters with spell points?
Okay, a sorcerer knows his spells and he can spontaneously cast them. In a spell point system, let's say his 9th level spells are 17 points and his 3rd level spells are 5 points. He can mix and match at will until he runs out of spell points. Ok, it can pose some problems, but it works.
Wizards, on the other hand, have this big honking spell book full of spells. Now one solution might be that they have to prepared 1-4 spells of each level, and then can mix and match their spell points. Which gives them flexibility, but really encroaches on the sorcerer's spontaneous casting. Letting them just use their spell book as spells known would neuter the sorcerer completely.
UA had a system, but it always seemed a bit wonky to me. It would definately need the kinks worked out, and the classes changed: which I highly doubt Paizo wants to do.
Master Arminas
Oh, TOZ. Hahahahahahahahaha. You so funny, man.
MA
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Yawn The Psionics are over powered again?
Let's see... Psionic powers can't be heightened so your globes never get old.
If see's example of Telepaths getting Dominate earlier than Wizards is an example of 'broken' Then I guess he's terrified of the mighty bard. After all hideous laughter comes to a bard at first level, while the wizard needs to wait until 3rd. OMG, bards are over powered.
As was pointed out above, 25k GP adds up quick. Not to mention the spell caster has his (free scaling) 1st-8th level spells still.
Oh, and don't forget, psions can only apply one metapsionic feat, two if they burn other feats.
I understand the worry that a balanced, scalable system might appeal overpowered to people who don't understand it. For the rest of us, it's a beautiful system.
*Heighten Spell is an absurdly overrated and quite a waste of a feat. Psionics can't be heightened, but you're fine, cause you're using your highest level powers anyway.
*You're better off casting Sleep or Color Spray, rather than getting Hideous Laughter at 1st level. It's quite subpar. And so are bards.*Replace 'Reality Revision' with any other 8th or 9th level power that can one-shot an encounter.
Wizards don't get stuff like 'will save or lose spellcasting abilities - permanently', invulnerability to anything 1 round, 'switch minds with the balor, also permanently' or Fusion.
Okay, a sorcerer knows his spells and he can spontaneously cast them. In a spell point system, let's say his 9th level spells are 17 points and his 3rd level spells are 5 points. He can mix and match at will until he runs out of spell points. Ok, it can pose some problems, but it works.
Wizards, on the other hand, have this big honking spell book full of spells. Now one solution might be that they have to prepared 1-4 spells of each level, and then can mix and match their spell points. Which gives them flexibility, but really encroaches on the sorcerer's spontaneous casting. Letting them just use their spell book as spells known would neuter the sorcerer completely.
UA had a system, but it always seemed a bit wonky to me. It would definately need the kinks worked out, and the classes changed: which I highly doubt Paizo wants to do.
Master Arminas
I have ideas regarding this. I'm thinking let prepared casters cast spontaneously without preparing spells, but give spontaneous casters all metamagic feats for free and make applying them a free action for spontaneous casters. Also, make it so that spontaneous casters have about twice as many spell points as prepared casters. Sure, wizard girl can cast anything any time, but sorcerer girl can cast twice as much and metamagic the living daylights out of it.
Kelsey, that is a major upgrade in power: for both classes, but especially for Sorcerers. ALL metamagic feats for free? I presume you mean they get them for free, not that they can APPLY them to their spells for free. Even so, that is like . . . what? A dozen free feats at 1st level?
Master Arminas
I don't understand. Prepared casters already use spell points. We just call them slots instead.
I'm somewhat clueless (especially wrt RPG rules) but isn't the point that in a spell point system you can cast a handful of your most super powerful spells or billions of your weakest?
A PF wizard can't decide to cast more of his highest level spells by "trading in" his low level ones, can he?
Oh, it is a major upgrade, but martials get their own boosts.
No, but I think you can prepare a lower level spell in a higher level slot. Let's say your a 7th level wizard. You can (I think) prepare fireballs in your 4th level slots, if you wanted to. You couldn't trade in 2 2nd-level slots for an ice storm, though.
Master Arminas
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Ok, I got my riot gear and bear mace so I'll weigh in and wait for the backlash. Psionics just aren't core to the game. When people think about a fanatsy game like pathfinder or d&d people think of wizards, clerics, etc. Nobody thinks of luke skywalker.
How many threads have we had over the years that were about emulating Jedi in Pathfinder again? Double-digits easily, right?
I like to think that I'm people, and I definitely think of psionics along with a number of other things when I think D&D/Pathfinder.
That's not what a spell point system is. That is what one type of spell point system is.
Ah. Well thats what clueless means I guess. I thought power points are a limited resource which you spent - powerful magic costing more points and weaker magic costing less.
How do these other types work? You have different "levels" of spell points?
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I'm not encouraging Paizo to publish psionic rules, I'm fine with what Dreamscarred is doing.
Do you have psionics at your own tables? If so, do you run transparency? What do you like/dislike about it?
I'm finding myself to be a recent convert to psionics. Not saying I'll drop Paizo stuff, but I didn't use to like it.
I have loved psionics since I started using them. 3.0 psionics had some serious problems, but 3.5 Psionics was a breath of fresh air. Completely revamped. And the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook has been like a 4th core book for my group since it was released.
Psionics has...
A big factor in the reason I like it is that it is strait up more balanced than core magic, while still filling a similar role. The system itself is streamlined and smooth, and requires less bookkeeping. If you can track hit points, you can track your "spells".
The 3.5 psionics system is much better for introducing RPG fans to the game if they haven't played D&D before. The power point system is identical in usage to things like "Mana" or "MP", which means that if you are familiar with almost any Final Fantasy, Fable, Diablo, Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance I or II, Elder Scrolls, and so forth, you will immediately "get it" as far as the basic system goes.
I like that it is good for gishing (that is combining magic and martial abilities), and most importantly, it never becomes useless. You get a fairly wide variety of magical options to choose from, without ever becoming overloaded with them.
There is no bookkeeping to be had with a psion. You don't have to scratch off which spell slots you have burned and which you haven't. You just have a spell list of your powers, and a single pool of power which determines your overall capacity to create these magical effects. You can also level up low level powers by spending more points on them, allowing you to be more flexible. Psionics doesn't have "free scaling" like core casters do (free scaling being like how magic missile goes from 1d4 to 5d4 as you level but still uses a 1st level spell), but you do get some leeway in how you pace yourself.
For example: A 5th level psion with 30 Points per day might be able to use a 5d6+5 ray 6 times before running out, or a 1d6+1 30 times per day before running out. While higher level powers are typically better and require more power, lower level powers can be upgraded by spending more. Again this cuts down on bookkeeping. Instead of having 9 different summon monster spells, psionic characters have 1 astral construct spell, which summons a bigger creature depending on how much juice you put into it.
It also has a hard limit for how many power points you can spend. You can never spend more power points in any given power than your caster level (so a 5th level Psion cannot spend 6 or more power points at one time). This prevents some of the horror stories I've heard of from 1E and 2E games where someone unloaded all their PPs and rocked socks.
And finally, I run full-transparency in our games (as is highly recommended by the book). We have Psions and Wizards, and in our games it's just another method of doing something that's very similar. Wizards, Psions, Sorcerers? Well most common folks can't tell the difference, and there's no real difference between creating fire with magic or creating fire with psionics. They are subject to the same rules. Resistances to magic is resistances to psionics, etc, etc.
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I didn't like the 3.5 system.
Please note this isn't based on the mechanics of it (my only issue there was just how hard it was to shut down a psionic compared to a spell caster), instead it was on the approach.
For me the 3.5 system of psionics was... too much like the magic system. Spell levels, spells known, DCs... et al was just too close to what the psionic system did. I would rather have seen a more... talent approach to the system... maybe even more skill based instead of specialty based as it was.
I think I would prefer more of a branching out from a single power approach to psionics than the 'grab bag' method that in my opinion works better for magic.
That said I am not against psionics making their way into pathfinder, ambivalent yes, but not adverse. I just would like to see something more than what felt like 'more of the same' that 3.5 did.
Unearthed Arcana Spell Point System (The Quick and Dirty Guide)
Every class that can cast spells trades in their slots for spell points. This can vary from 2-232 (depending on level) for clerics, druids, and wizards, 0-144 for bards, and 3-249 for sorcerers. Paladins and rangers start with 0 and eventually hit 48. There is chart showing exactly how much each class gets at each level (UA Page 153). Plus you get bonus points if your casting attribute is high enough, and once again, the higher your level the more points you get. (another chart, Page 154). Basically, if at 20th level, you've got a 32 in your casting score, you are picking up another 136 points.
Spells cost 0-17 points to cast, depending on level, with zero level spells taking 0 points and 9th level spells taking 19.
All spells that deal hit point damage that scales with level NO LONGER DOES SO. They do the minimum damage possible. To increase the damage, you have to pay more points. Each 1 extra spell point spent at the time of casting increase's the spell's effective caster level by 1 for the purposes of dealing damage only--to a maximum of your own caster level. DAMAGE CAPS STILL APPLY.
All casters are now spontaneous and can cast spells they know, have scribed in their spellbooks, or (for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) have access to on their lists. You can as many spells of whatever level you want, so long as you are high enough level to cast that spell and have enough spell points to do so.
That is it in a nutshell, get a copy of the book for more details. Like I said: WONKY.
Master Arminas
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Well everyone has their opinion. Psionics are about as divisive as well guns are.
some people like guns in their campaigns, and others do not.
some like psionics and others do not.
I happen to like it. I had a psionics character, got that 100 on the psionics roll in 1st eddition. I also had a psionicist in 2nd eddition, I got the character up to 13 level and I also played the expanded psionics, i got a character up to 17 level (erudite 11, uncarnate 6).
So i was happy with and i like the psionics system. In the games i ran, i didn't find it disruptive.
I also happen to like variety, i like having those warlock invocations, next to vancian spell casting, next to psionics with power points.
So i would not be interested in another "iteration" of psionics rules. I happen to like what Dream scarred press is doing, and i will continue supporting their products.
Unfortunately there are plenty of people who feel, that the separate mechanics is exactly what they don't like and don't want and wont let anywhere near their game. An impasse if you will.
I suppose we have a good compromise as a psionics fan, who likes the power point game mechanics, have Dream Scared press. Those who dont like psionics, or rather the mecanics of psionics, may have what Paizo produces some time down the line. So there we are.
Lol, Avenger! Sometimes, I forget I am on the internet and everything is CONNECTED. hahahahah
Master Arminas
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Or check it out at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm
Actually, that should not be associated with psionics. The spell point system found in Unearthed Arcana is notoriously bad, overpowered, and just down right poorly thought out. The spell point variation is like an incomplete and unbalanced mockery of the 3.5 psionics rules, without all the good stuff that makes 3.5 psionics great.
Likewise, the recharge magic system should really only be used if you want everyone to be spellcasters. :3
I agree, Ashiel, but Kelsey was asking if they had a spell point system for normal magic. Love to get your opinion on my mind mage as well, if you have time.
MA
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Ah. Well thats what clueless means I guess. I thought power points are a limited resource which you spent - powerful magic costing more points and weaker magic costing less.
How do these other types work? You have different "levels" of spell points?
Yep. 9 pools of spell points, and each spell costs one point. A common option is to be able to use your upper pool points to cast lower pool spells if you like. Less common is to be able to spend lower pool points to cast higher pool spells at a steeper trade off.
Personally, I've taken a liking to Psionics via DSP. I've decided to include it into my world, which was something I was previously opposed to. As for those who think that Psionics don't fit in a classic DnD medieval setting (although others in this thread haver edited that claim) think about putting them in a setting other than medieval Europe. I've been thinking I'll incorporate them into a country modeled off of Indian culture. I saw jarl's post about the monks and that only helps to validate that idea.
Also, I would definitely oppose making Psionics part of the spell slot system. If that's the plan, why even bother? Something needs to truly set it apart and that's the power point system. I think it gives it a very different and cool feel. But it still works and it really no unintuitive.
Yep. 9 pools of spell points, and each spell costs one point. A common option is to be able to use your upper pool points to cast lower pool spells if you like. Less common is to be able to spend lower pool points to cast higher pool spells at a steeper trade off.Ah. Well thats what clueless means I guess. I thought power points are a limited resource which you spent - powerful magic costing more points and weaker magic costing less.
How do these other types work? You have different "levels" of spell points?
Cheers. I'd never seen a system like that. At least it would give you some options if you discover your prepped spells are less than ideal.
Fixing the Unearthed Arcana spell point system is something I've been thinking of doing for a long time.
I didn't like the 3.5 system.
Please note this isn't based on the mechanics of it (my only issue there was just how hard it was to shut down a psionic compared to a spell caster), instead it was on the approach.
For me the 3.5 system of psionics was... too much like the magic system. Spell levels, spells known, DCs... et al was just too close to what the psionic system did. I would rather have seen a more... talent approach to the system... maybe even more skill based instead of specialty based as it was.
I think I would prefer more of a branching out from a single power approach to psionics than the 'grab bag' method that in my opinion works better for magic.
That said I am not against psionics making their way into pathfinder, ambivalent yes, but not adverse. I just would like to see something more than what felt like 'more of the same' that 3.5 did.
I appreciate your candor.
I do find it hilarious that you see the system for what it is, a slightly tweaked version of the base magic system, where half the other people are complaining that it's too much of a RADICAL departure from the norm that they can't wrap their brains around it.
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Cheers. I'd never seen a system like that. At least it would give you some options if you discover your prepped spells are less than ideal.Yep. 9 pools of spell points, and each spell costs one point. A common option is to be able to use your upper pool points to cast lower pool spells if you like. Less common is to be able to spend lower pool points to cast higher pool spells at a steeper trade off.Ah. Well thats what clueless means I guess. I thought power points are a limited resource which you spent - powerful magic costing more points and weaker magic costing less.
How do these other types work? You have different "levels" of spell points?
Have you looked in the CRB? It's right there. ;)
I'm not encouraging Paizo to publish psionic rules, I'm fine with what Dreamscarred is doing.
Do you have psionics at your own tables? If so, do you run transparency? What do you like/dislike about it?
I'm finding myself to be a recent convert to psionics. Not saying I'll drop Paizo stuff, but I didn't use to like it.
I allow psionics as transparent. I enjoy the mystic flavor and never got the sci-fi feel to it that most do. I've always seen psions as ascetics and seekers of the way.
I dislike the point system, although I've never bothered, been bothered by, or have witnessed game-breaking moments. I do think it's an improvement from 2nd edition in that there were no rolls required for them to work.
I agree, Ashiel, but Kelsey was asking if they had a spell point system for normal magic. Love to get your opinion on my mind mage as well, if you have time.
MA
Sorry, I missed that Kelsey asked. I just wanted to make sure nobody somehow connected the Unearthed Arcana spell point system with 3.5 Psionics under any circumstances - for the sake of psionics everywhere.
As for your mind mage, skimming over it, it looks like a good write up. However, I wouldn't really want to use it as a player or GM, because it doesn't really give anything significantly different to core casters, and most of the psionic spells, while having the same names as some of the psionic powers, don't really stand out.
Ego whip for example is basically a mind-affecting no-save no-elemental damage spell with a save vs dazing. Likely very strong at low levels and becoming obsolete at high levels. Animal affinity would be cool, except that you can't use it in succession to buff different stats, like you could be casting cat's grace + fox's cunning for example. As written Mind Thrust doesn't deal any damage at all at CL 1, but I imagine that was an oversight.
Eh...
I think it just looks like another mage by another name. It doesn't really have any abilities that make it stand out, and the main thing that made psionic powers remain useful at higher levels is completely missing from them, and that is an augmentation system.
I mean, in 3.5/DSP psionics, you could have spend more power on Animal Affinity to buff multiple ability scores at once (such as Str, Dex, Con) by increasing the cost. Or have kept Ego Whip and Mind Thrust relevant at higher levels too. Even inertial armor, their version of Mage Armor can be improved through augmenting to give a higher AC bonus.
If you would accept my suggestion, if you really want to capture a bit more about what was actually really great about the psionics system without actually using the system, consider allowing these spells to augment. Maybe raise their caps or give them different effects by casting them with higher level spell slots?
Maybe like this...
Animal Affinity
Transmutation
Level: Mind Mage 2
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level
You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to a single ability score of your choice. Select Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma when you cast this spell. You may take a standard action at any point during the spell’s duration to switch the enhancement bonus to another ability score of your choice. You may only have one animal affinity spell in effect on your person at any one time. Casting the spell a second time automatically dispels the first casting and resets the duration.
Power Casting: You may cast this spell as a higher level spell. For every spell level you increase it, you may choose an additional ability score to improve (e.g. Strength and Dexterity at 3rd level, Dtrength, Dexterity, and Intelligence at 4th level, etc).