Oh THIS again. I guess "Psionics" came up on the wheel o' threads. Last week it was a crapton of Magi questions. It's been a while since I played this game and, so far, this thread is civil. Yay!
It's a welcome break from paladin and alignment threads.
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I would absolutely welcome Psionics in the vein that James Jacobs has discussed; new system (well integrated) [..]The Words of Power system hasn't convinced me that Paizo can do a psionics system any better than the tried-and-true 3.5/Dreamscarred Press version. Hope springs eternal, I suppose.
It does indeed.
You'll noticed I include an AP and setting tie-in when I suggested it could be done well. It's not an afterthought, but an essential component.
That's because, for my money, the best new mechanics Paizo has released are always grounded in the campaign. I don't have any direct issues with the generic mechanics design, I think I may just be biased toward campaign-integrated rules. A subsystem benefits from being integrated with a campaign as a part of its creation — having to work it into a storyline tends to reveal many issues with how the new rules work, and that's a good thing.
So, in a nutshell, do I want a rulebook-line Psionics hardcover? No. That would be a useless playtest that would create a compromised product. Thousands of players spewing vitriol over hundreds of pages of half-considered rules. Blech.
Do I want a smattering of psionic rules introduced in the Darklands and Jalmaray, where they make sense and can be introduced carefully? Yes. I think that would give me the psionics I want (not much). Sadly, it would be GM-candy and not really something that players could freak out about. And publishers do seem to love it when players freak out. Alas!
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Here are the things that bug me about psionics:
- I don't like adding what is basically a whole new magic system. We already have one. I don't want to learn another one. The magus spell pool and the grit pool bug me for the same reasons. We already have ki. Use that. Rename ki to be grit and it would work for all classes.
- All the adjustments available to individual powers lead to a lot of mistakes causing characters to seem overpowered when they forget to spend the right amount of points.
- The whole points thing is too fiddly for me.
- Many of the powers are "weaker" in that they only affect the psion but they end up being much stronger by giving too much to make up for it.
In summary, psionics could just as easily be another class of magic and use the same system. Then everybody would probably have a much easier time in using it because they will not have to learn a new fiddly magic system. Being magic makes it easier to balance with other magic and can even allow for some cross class fun like domains giving psionic spells.
To some extent I agree, Karkon. The main flaw with psionics (throughout all of the various editions of D&D) has been that it uses a different mechanic than other spell casters. As a player, I liked the power point system, but now that I am older and (hopefully) a little wiser, I feel that putting too many spokes on the wheel will only mess up the ride.
I think we could make psionics work in Pathfinder by (a) sticking to a spell slot system, (b) having a few unique mentalism only spells, and (c) treating it as a another domain of magic.
So you would have Arcane, Divine, and Mentalism (for example). Now, I have heard many complaints that this would just make Mentalists (Mind Mages, Psions, what-ever-you-want-to-call-them) just watered down Sorcerers. But I thi]nk if we put the talents of the Pathfinder community to work, we can develop and test a class that fits the psionics mold, is appropriately themed for psionics, and can still fit into a fantasy world with people saying, you know, that's cool.
For my mind mage (for example) mind mage, I concentrated on what people traditionally associated with psionics: Telepathy, Telekinesis, Pyschoportation, and (thanks to Stephen King) Pyrokinesis.
It has very few abilities outside of these areas, but within those set boundaries it is solid. It still needs work, which is why I am asking for any feedback, but it could serve as a springboard to bring psionics fully into the Pathfinder system.
Arcane Magics are the most versatile and comprehensive, but the most restrictive. These suffer from arcane spell failure and have multiple components (verbal, somatic, and material, sometimes focus).
Divine Magics are less powerful (generally speaking) and less versatile, but allow a wide range of healing and restorative magic. They do not suffer ASF and tend to have less in the way of components--but usually require a focus.
Mentalism Magics are in a middle ground between the two. Restricted to very narrow, specialized lists (like Divine), but fairly powerful within that range (like Arcane). They don't have ASF and require no components (except if a spell requires an expensive focus or material component, the Mentalism spell still must have that to be cast), making Mentalism the domain that is the most subtle of all magics. Except for the pyrokinetic element, mentalism isn't flashy. It lacks multiple different damage types; many of its spells are mind-affecting; it can deal damage and control the battlefield, but almost never as well as a pure wizard. It can heal damage and remove poison or disease, but not as to the same extent as a cleric.
As a domain of magic, Mentalism has its own niche. And can make a powerful and flavorful addition to your game.
And I am going to stop my rambling thoughts here.
Master Arminas
I agree with the last poster. If you are going to theorize "magic" as being born in our own world at least conceptually then it's hard to get away from the idea that psionics _is_ magic--the two are hard to parse out.
But if you instead see psionics as a school or division of magic then it can blend seamlessly into the milieu. It may take some rule fiddling but can be done well. If you use Psionics in your game--and I like the Dreamscarred books, and use the psionics rules from them--then separating schools of magic to include Mentalism is probably the best theoretical approach.
But nobody said it had to be done. There are so many who truly dislike the concept it would be a hard sell as a wholesale addition to the PF game. It should be an optional-only rulebook at best.
Well, technically, everything but the Core Rulebook is optional in Pathfinder anyway. Everything else follows the single commandment common to all Pathfinder games (except for Society play): THOU SHALT ASK THY GAMEMASTER FOR PERMISSION.
Master Arminas
Hogarth, I have about the same reaction to all of those as well. I don't mind them, but in the end they're just another kind of magic. In some cases I like the alternate mechanics, in some I don't. But I've never been a fan of Vancian casting systems either, so I could just as easily say the reverse and call spellcasting just another form of psionics.
There's definitely something to be said in favour of a unified system -- personally, I'm a fan of games like Champions/HERO where everything shares the same universal rules, regardless of "fluff".
Ok, I got my riot gear and bear mace so I'll weigh in and wait for the backlash. Psionics just aren't core to the game. When people think about a fanatsy game like pathfinder or d&d people think of wizards, clerics, etc. Nobody thinks of luke skywalker. If you were playing a scifi game nobody would bring up magic. It's that simple. Granted some people like a crossover but they are niche. That is why with all the base classes out now not one is a psionisist. It would require its own book and take resources away from more popular game supplements. In the end it would lose paizo money catering to a niche. That's why it was left to third party devlopers. In short psionics are like gun rules or Ron Paul, most people don't care for them but those that do are rabid about it.... There I'm done and will head to my bomb shelter till the fallout fades.
I'd rather Paizo left psionics to Dreamscarred. I really don't want to choose between two systems.
If that is the case though, then there will never be a Paizo written AP. I am interested in psionics only for those dark tapestry creatures, and perhaps deep sea. I imagine Vudrani to be psionic but I never intend to let it manifest anywhere else except Numeria.
I am very interested in an AP for Numeria (At least a Chronicles book PLEASE!) and a vudrani AP. If Dreamscarred gets adopted I don;t know if Paizo would write it 'psionicly' or with psionics in mind.
I was thinking about picking dreamscarred up but does anyone know if there is a HEROLAB supplement for it? For 3pp, not being Herolab compatible is deal breaker for me.
I flipped through a book of theirs in the game store and it looked really nice however, I think it was victorian age.
Ok, I got my riot gear and bear mace so I'll weigh in and wait for the backlash. Psionics just aren't core to the game. When people think about a fanatsy game like pathfinder or d&d people think of wizards, clerics, etc. Nobody thinks of luke skywalker. If you were playing a scifi game nobody would bring up magic. It's that simple. Granted some people like a crossover but they are niche. That is why with all the base classes out now not one is a psionisist. It would require its own book and take resources away from more popular game supplements. In the end it would lose paizo money catering to a niche. That's why it was left to third party devlopers. In short psionics are like gun rules or Ron Paul, most people don't care for them but those that do are rabid about it.... There I'm done and will head to my bomb shelter till the fallout fades.
Star Wars doesn't use psionics. Star Wars also is not sci fi, it is fantasy through and through. The force is magic, especially as portrayed in the expanded novels.
But I am with you, I do not like mixing sci fi in my sword and sorcery. I am happy however that Golarion has contained areas to satisfy that niche.
I have my own cosmological explanations as to why psionics won't manifest in most golarion ethnicities, and why workable guns can only be formed in Arkenstar. I have my own 'magic/tech rating system largely inspired from ARCANUM and Manual of the Planes 1st edition.
I'm not encouraging Paizo to publish psionic rules, I'm fine with what Dreamscarred is doing.
Do you have psionics at your own tables? If so, do you run transparency? What do you like/dislike about it?
I'm finding myself to be a recent convert to psionics. Not saying I'll drop Paizo stuff, but I didn't use to like it.
I have not used it in a while, but I do allow it. I do use the transparency rules, because if you don't it creates a lot of work for me as a G, and I have enough to do already.
I like that I can boost the power of powers so that they remain relevant. I don't like the fact that magic still has more options.PS:I only have DPS's core book, and none of the expansions.
I'm not encouraging Paizo to publish psionic rules, I'm fine with what Dreamscarred is doing.
Do you have psionics at your own tables? If so, do you run transparency? What do you like/dislike about it?
I'm finding myself to be a recent convert to psionics. Not saying I'll drop Paizo stuff, but I didn't use to like it.
I have not used it in a while, but I do allow it. I do use the transparency rules, because if you don't it creates a lot of work for me as a G, and I have enough to do already.
I like that I can boost the power of powers so that they remain relevant. I don't like the fact that magic still has more options.
PS:I only have DPS's core book, and none of the expansions.
Dreamscarred is selling a supplemental material. I think there are four classes for 9.95 up. The Aegis, the Marksman, the Tactician, and the Vitalist.
I really like the features of the Vitalist and the Tactician. It also comes with options and powers for the "core" psionic classes.
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Ok, I got my riot gear and bear mace so I'll weigh in and wait for the backlash. Psionics just aren't core to the game. When people think about a fanatsy game like pathfinder or d&d people think of wizards, clerics, etc. Nobody thinks of luke skywalker. If you were playing a scifi game nobody would bring up magic. It's that simple. Granted some people like a crossover but they are niche. That is why with all the base classes out now not one is a psionisist. It would require its own book and take resources away from more popular game supplements. In the end it would lose paizo money catering to a niche. That's why it was left to third party devlopers. In short psionics are like gun rules or Ron Paul, most people don't care for them but those that do are rabid about it.... There I'm done and will head to my bomb shelter till the fallout fades.
Not really true about it being sci-fi, and psionics has been around since 1st or second edition, not that I think that is a valid defense for anything however. I can't find the post, but when I do I will post it.
Or Kathryn Kurtz's Deryni?
MA
Anything that is not explained through natural law is "fantasy." The force, magic, psionics... it's all fantasy. Star Wars has been "science fantasy" from day one. That doesn't mean it can't be "science fiction" too. Even faster than light travel is "fantasy" as far as science tells us today, soo it is a rare sci-fi story that isn't fantasy too. When the story strictly avoids fantasy of any sort, it's called "hard sci-fi."
That's why I say "it's all just magic." I think having multiple magical mechanics is OK, but potentially confusing, and if one has serious deficiencies compared to the others, I would rather see the offender replaced by the superior version.
I am not familiar with Dreamscarred's work. My biggest issues with Psionics in the systems I am familiar with is that they made a Psion able to use any sort of magic they wanted from healing to blasting, they made it easier to use via power points, and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities. In other words it was broken when compared to the built in magic system. I even tested my theory once with a group that enjoyed optimizing and power gaming. I opened up psionics for use and every one at the table everyone made a psi powered character. If you decide to use them you may as well throw away all the other classes in the game. Not saying it wouldn't be fun as a one shot, but I would miss all the other classes long term. So I wouldn't recommend they make any psionic rules official. Best to let third parties play around with them.
@ Liam
No, I don't. I mostly just think about how the two could logically interact. For example, steam engines that use alchemical fuels instead of water for increased performance or magic items that can be recharged with electricity, then say that object exists. I'd love to have a set of published rules for this, but I don't.
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and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities.
It might just be me, but how is having low-level abilities stay relevant a bad thing?
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I am not familiar with Dreamscarred's work. My biggest issues with Psionics in the systems I am familiar with is that they made a Psion able to use any sort of magic they wanted from healing to blasting, they made it easier to use via power points, and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities. In other words it was broken when compared to the built in magic system. I even tested my theory once with a group that enjoyed optimizing and power gaming. I opened up psionics for use and every one at the table everyone made a psi powered character. If you decide to use them you may as well throw away all the other classes in the game. Not saying it wouldn't be fun as a one shot, but I would miss all the other classes long term. So I wouldn't recommend they make any psionic rules official. Best to let third parties play around with them.
You know that psions are restricted in the number of powers known: 36 over 20 levels. Psychic warriors only get 20 over 20 levels. A Wizard gets 38 free spells from 2nd level onwards (not counting his starting 1st level spells and cantrips). He can add more to his spell book by scribing. A Sorcerer gets 43 over 20 levels (not including cantrips).
Psion's got to make choices. Yes, they have blasting, healing, utility, charm, summoning, and buff powers on their list--but they don't have enough powers known slots for all of them.
Psionic powers do not automatically scale with levels gained. You get a 3rd level power that does 5d6; it always does 5d6 unless you spend more power points (and you can only spend power points equal to or less than your manifester level on a single power). Yes, a 20th level psion can do 20d12 (with a will save to negate) with a 1st level power (mind thrust), but it costs him 20 power points to do that, with a 9th level power costing a base 17. That means a psion burns through his power points fast.
Admittedly, I don't like that aspect of the psionics (3.5 or DSP) as written, which I why I am trying to change the nature of psionics in my rewrite (see a post above if you are interested).
Psionics have never replaced arcane or divine users in my game, even though they are allowed. Part of that reason is that there is NOTHING in the game even remotely as versatile as a Wizard. Clerics and druids are the closest, but they are second-tier. Believe me, once the novelty of the class wears off, most of your players will switch back.
Master Arminas
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and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities.It might just be me, but how is having low-level abilities stay relevant a bad thing?
It's not. It's great, and XPH Psionics is an exceptional system that allows for precisely that. However, that does look too good to some people compared to normal slotted magic.
It is better, from a versatility standpoint, but that's not a reason to ban it IMO. Personally I wish that regular magic functioned the same way and I think I'm not alone in that desire.
I am not familiar with Dreamscarred's work. My biggest issues with Psionics in the systems I am familiar with is that they made a Psion able to use any sort of magic they wanted from healing to blasting, they made it easier to use via power points, and they allowed powers to be scaled upwards easily so that unlike the wizard or cleric you don't have a page full of now useless low level abilities. In other words it was broken when compared to the built in magic system. I even tested my theory once with a group that enjoyed optimizing and power gaming. I opened up psionics for use and every one at the table everyone made a psi powered character. If you decide to use them you may as well throw away all the other classes in the game. Not saying it wouldn't be fun as a one shot, but I would miss all the other classes long term. So I wouldn't recommend they make any psionic rules official. Best to let third parties play around with them.
I don't know what edition you're talking about, but if you're talking about 3.5/PF and your players were able to do anything nearly as crazy with psionics as they could with core casters (wizard/druid/cleric), then they were terrible at being optimizers and powergamers. Particularly in 3.5, even a slightly competently optimized member of the unholy trinity runs laps around the psionic classes all day long. I'm not saying that the psionic classes aren't powerful, but unless your "powergamers" were mostly powergaming Samurai, you shouldn't see that much of a gap. (It's the general consensus of the 3.5 optimization community that psion/wilder slot somewhere above the worthless martial classes, but clearly a cut below the god-tier core casters.)
If you're talking about earlier editions, then yes, psionics are broken nonsense, but 3.5/PF psionics don't have much to do with those systems, and deserve another look.
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Personally I wish that regular magic functioned the same way and I think I'm not alone in that desire.
Unearthed Arcana had a spell point system if I remember correctly, but it's not as well thought out as power points were. If spells could be augmented like powers, I would probably try it out.
In order to cast Dominate Person across a ballroom without any obvious spellcasting requires an Int 20 enchanter — a wizard specialized in mind magic — a 7th-level spell slot (5th plus one each Silent and Still spell), which means he will be at least of 13th level. The enchanter can cast that modified spell twice a day.
A telepath psion can do the same by spending 7 power points and making a DC 19 concentration check on Mind Control, a check which he will make 100% of the time at 13th level with an Int of 20. At that level and intelligence, he has enough power points to manifest this power 25 times a day.
I'm sure some psionics fan will come along and use pure white-room combat examples concentrated on blasting to explain how the systems are balanced, really. But it's been understood for a whole decade that the power of casters in 3.x does not lie in blasting.
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In order to cast Dominate Person across a ballroom without any obvious spellcasting requires an Int 20 enchanter — a wizard specialized in mind magic — a 7th-level spell slot (5th plus one each Silent and Still spell), which means he will be at least of 13th level. The enchanter can cast that modified spell twice a day.
A telepath psion can do the same by spending 7 power points and making a DC 19 concentration check on Mind Control, a check which he will make 100% of the time at 13th level with an Int of 20. At that level and intelligence, he has enough power points to manifest this power 25 times a day.
I'm sure some psionics fan will come along and use pure white-room combat examples concentrated on blasting to explain how the systems are balanced, really. But it's been understood for a whole decade that the power of casters in 3.x does not lie in blasting.
Few things.
1)I see no reason why the wizard would have to be an Enchanter.2)Metamagic rods, man.
3)Psionic abilities have displays, which means when he manifests Mind Control everyone in the vicinity "hears" the mental display. Not exactly hidden as you'd like us to think.
4)Yes, a Telepath is better at mind control than a wizard. Psionics have to have SOME niche.
1)I see no reason why the wizard would have to be an Enchanter.
Bonus spell slot. Otherwise the wizard can only do it once.
2)Metamagic rods, man.
One per spellcasting, not two.
3)Psionic abilities have displays, which means when he manifests Mind Control everyone in the vicinity "hears" the mental display. Not exactly hidden as you'd like us to think.
Suppressing displays takes a concentration check at a DC of 15+power level. Which is to say, DC 19.
So, yeah, if you don't understand the game system, sure, you can come to the conclusion that psionics isn't overpowered.
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I don't use psionics, and I don't like playing in campaigns that allow them. To me, psionics takes away from the "medieval fantasy" feel of the game, because (and I admit this is my interpretation and thus my problem) psionics to me is a science fiction element, not a fantasy element.
If you want them, go for it. Have fun. I shall do likewise without them.
More than once if he uses a metamagic rod to oh, I don't know, only raise the spell's slot by one instead of two?
See,
Any wizard or sorcerer can choose to learn the dominate spell; doesn't have to be an enchanter. Only a Telepath (not any other type of psion) can learn the dominate power. That means, he doesn't have access to other disciplines, such as those of the Nomad, Egoist, Shaper, Seer, or Kinetic without spending a feat.
Sure, a telepath (who is specialized in charm, enchantment, and domination) gets access to dominate two levels earlier than a wizard (three than sorcerer). So what? It also has a lower DC, because it is a 4th level power and not a 5th level spell.
You are complaining that a Telepath is slightly better at mind-control than an enchantment wizard? Come on! How many things are out right immune to mind-affecting? If your opponent knows your alignment (and you are anything but neutral) a 1st level spell (protection from chaos/evil/good/law) affords 100% unfailable protection.
How finding a better example, next time. M'kay?
Master Arminas
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So, yeah, if you don't understand the game system, sure, you can come to the conclusion that psionics isn't overpowered.
You've picked one example that arguably a Psion SHOULD be better at anyway, are wrong on a bit of your math in regards to the number of times you can realistically cast that spell per day, and you use that as evidence that the entire system is overpowered.
I'll do the same to you.
A wizard/sorcerer/magus/bard casts a first level spell FIRST LEVEL and becomes invisible for 1 round/level against all creatures. If a Psion wants to become invisible to even 2 creatures he needs to be 5th level, within Close range of those creatures, use the equivalent of a 3rd level spell (5pp) and both creatures need to fail their save. If you want to become invisible to a whole room of creatures we're talking 11th level minimum. Also it's mind-affecting so undead and constructs, etc., will be immune.
ZOMG ARCANE MAGIX IZ BORKEN!
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I have psionics in my game!
They're wizards, sorcerers, clerics, oracles and even bards that know mind-affecting spells.
I strongly discourage my players from using class names in-character. Psychics are just casters with a mental theme. Nothing more.
If I'm understanding this correctly, (i.e., as far as mechanics are concerned, UR is not using the psionics rules-- psychics are characters who just oriented their spell selection towards 'mind magic') I like it...
That's why I say "it's all just magic." I think having multiple magical mechanics is OK, but potentially confusing, and if one has serious deficiencies compared to the others, I would rather see the offender replaced by the superior version.
AD has said other variation on this theme that I also agree with-- basically, "it's all just magic", and I do not like the way the psionics mechanics (that I have seen and tried so far) work in the game as well as I like the other systems. I see no need to include Psionics at all, without a sufficient "in story" reason that sufficiently distinguishes it from other types of magic while making it fit in well with the setting/campaign. Master Arminas's 'Mind Mage' (that I am going to take a closer look at soon), comes close because it doesn't throw in different mechanics that annoy me; and because (for that matter) maybe it isn't a different variety of magic, it's just a specialization (since the mechanics aren't jarring), but one that still has good uses for characters in the game.
Regarding Hogarth's query to Adamantine Dragon about Bardic performances, et al-- I rather like them, so far-- but they fit the 'story/setting', and while the mechanics are somewhat different, they seem to mesh well enough without causing problems with the other aspects of the game. Likewise-- for mechanics that might work better-- I'm quite interested in the "skills and feats" approach someone mentioned earlier (presented in one of Green Ronin's 3rd party supplements I believe? btw-- If someone knows, was that a 3.5, a dedicated PF supplement, or for one of Green Ronin's own d20 derivative games?) I can definitely see some inclusion of psychic powers as features/abilities of characters in my game (stuff like characters being able to send, a la 'Elfquest', or characters who are natural empaths in addition to whatever else they might be)-- I'm not so convinced of the need for a whole other power set (such extra powers will probably be explained as minor magics anyway, for source of the ability).
(and yes, I am trying to make sure I set aside my lingering anti-psionic prejudices from the AD&D 1st ed days-- I think I'm succeeding at that, and in discussing psionics for the current game on its own merits)
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see elegantly proves the point that magic and psionics should never be mixed up. Broken systems are still broken.
Imho, if you like psionics, go ahead and roll a pure psionic campaign, nobody will mind. But when you try to cram these systems in the same setting, hilarity ensues.
P.S.: Your average lvl20 psion can cast Reality Revision (psionic Wish/Miracle) 27 times per day. Your average cleric/wizard can do that about 5 times. With greater technical limitations like verbal/somatic components and being identified on sight. GG!
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First off, I would use magic in sci-fi, psionics in fantasy, and both in either.
I don't like 3.5 Psionics because its big selling point was the spell point system and some psuedo science and new age terms thrown in for flavor. I did find the Wilder and improvement over Psion and Psychic Warrior but the only class I actually liked was the Soul Knife. Why should I car about a class that's big selling point is a different spellcasting system when I could just hack the system so that all the D&D classes can use spell points and still have character?
Also the races didn't do anything for me either and were designed specifically for psionics, which made them more attractive to do than say a Gnome Wilder.
As for Dreamscarred Press, their book seemed mostly like a update of 3.5 Psionics. I would have rather that they put more of their own ideas in. I bought it based on hype and was disappointed. I would much rather see Paizo do their own version of psionics.
I'd rather see them avoid it altogether than to shoehorn it into a vancian system as they have suggested would happen.
see elegantly proves the point that magic and psionics should never be mixed up. Broken systems are still broken.
Imho, if you like psionics, go ahead and roll a pure psionic campaign, nobody will mind. But when you try to cram these systems in the same setting, hilarity ensues.
As someone who has run games with psionics, and who has played in sum total about 5 years worth of Dark Sun with Psionic characters right along Divine and Arcane, all I can say is you're wrong.
I'm not sure how he elegantly proved anything other than fudging math on a cherry picked example can show you ANYTHING.
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see elegantly proves the point that magic and psionics should never be mixed up. Broken systems are still broken.
Imho, if you like psionics, go ahead and roll a pure psionic campaign, nobody will mind. But when you try to cram these systems in the same setting, hilarity ensues.P.S.: Your average lvl20 psion can cast Reality Revision (psionic Wish/Miracle) 27 times per day. Your average cleric/wizard can do that about 5 times. With greater technical limitations like verbal/somatic components and being identified on sight. GG!
Egads! Your average psion can spend 17 power points 27 times per day! That is 459 power points. Base power points for the psion class (3.5) are 343 at 20th level. If he has a 32 Intelligence, he gets 110 bonus PP, putting him at 453. Hmmm. We still aren't there. And quite frankly, having a 32 Int (in 3.5!) is kind of a stretch.
If he started with an 18 Int, put all five of his level ups into it, paid out the butt for a +5 inherent modifier, and had a +6 stat booster, he could conceivably have had a 34. But having a starting 18 in 3.5 wasn't certain by any means, AND the people I play with didn't usually invest in Tomes and Manuals that heavily.
And remember, each use of reality revision cost the psion 5,000 experience points. So, yes, he could manifest this power twenty-six (26) times per day, if he were willing to blow 130,000 experience points. Hmmmmmm? It was 3.5, so at most, a 20th level psion could only have 210,000 XP. Using all of that would drop him clear down to 13th level. BUT HE CAN'T. You can't spend XP that would drop you a level. So, if he was 1 point shy of 21st level, he could manifest THREE uses of reality revision and remain a 20th level character.
Not seeing the brokeness here.
Master Arminas
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I too have Psionic Unleashed yet wish Paizo would publish a offical psionics book. I like PU yet I'm a sucker for offical content. Like Arcane and Divine magic Psionic characters have a weakness. Not to mention if your going to talk about "medieval fantasy". I'm just wondering how Dragons the size of jumbo jets and Beholders that fly without any real propulsion factor into D&D being a "medieval" fantasy" type of fantasy rpg. Along with golems,constructs and exploding gas spore. D&D borrows many things that have a medival feel to it. It's anything but medieval fantasy. Not unless you houserule it. The Game of Thrones rpg is imo a true medieval fantasy rpg. D&D is a fantasy rpg. So I fail to see how psionics could not fit in the game.
Point taken. My bad. And basically, what those numbers means is that the psion can put out 27 powers per day, if fully augmented. How many spells (that scale) can a wizard, a specialist wizard, a sorcerer, a cleric, or a druid put out?
Master Arminas
Oh, and the current version of reality revision requires 25,000 gp of crystals for each manifestation. Those add up FAST.
Master Arminas
No, don't use psionics at all.
It seems to me that it doesn't belong in the same universe as magic. Psionics would be fine for a science fiction campaign (like the Force in Star Wars) but not for the sword-swinging fantasy.
I have not seen the Dreamscarred product, but in my opinion all previous D&D versions of psionics were outrageously overpowered compared to magic.
I like pickles. I like chocholate. I do not like them together.
I like sci fi. I like fantasy. I do not like them together.
<---- Magic goes this way IIIwall of seperation III Psionics go this way--->
More than once if he uses a metamagic rod to oh, I don't know, only raise the spell's slot by one instead of two?
So how many feats and supplemental magic items shall we have our wizard use to match the no-feat, no-magic-item capability of a telepath psion, or the one-feat capability of any other psion? After all, we could equip him with whole bunches of pearls of power to match any number of castings, right?
And if I'd been going for a fudged/contrived/cherry-picked example, I would have, say, had the 13th-level psion using the Mind Control power to secretly and simultaneously dominate 2 aberrations at once at a cost of 13 power points, 13 times a day. Because even a 20th-level wizard or sorcerer can't manage a silent, still, two-target dominate monster at all.
But, see, there are very few cases in any campaign world where it's tremendously useful to be able to simultaneously and covertly take over the minds of two aberrations. On the other hand, being able to subvert an entire noble's court, or every person of importance in a small town, in half an hour, with no witnesses being able to tell you did it? That's actual power.
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Yes, but your Scorching Rays, Fireballs, Magic Missiles, Chain Lightnings and other low level damaging spells (or save-or-suck spells) will hit for lols and giggles on any CR 17-20 due to DCs and resistances.
Low level spells will succeed only on a natural 1 roll on most respectable monsters.
The magic system makes most low level spells useless in high level gameplay. In psionics, most powers can be augmented and made viable at high levels.
From a strategical point of view, will you cast a 4th level Enervation for 1d4 levels drain (that might be stopped by technical stuff like Globes of Invulnerability)... or start right off the bat with the big psionic guns (and keep on using them until depleted) that hit for 20d10 untyped damage / 40d6+X area of effect energy damage / Will for instant death or Xd6 damage / 1d4+1 per 2 points area of effect negative levels / other powers that turn the tide of battle in a single manifestation ?
