What is your favorite bard archetype and why?!
Vanilla bard.
None of the bard archetypes are worth it in the end. In fact, few archetypes of any class are worth it, and that's the way I want things to be. You can get real specific with your character concept but there isn't a parade of new books that obsolete the old ones.
I guess I'd pick Archaeologist, since it's almost entirely a new class, falling between Rogue and Bard. I don't know if it's "better" than vanilla bard, but it does the best job justifying its existence. Sandman also gives the bard some interesting toys. Most of the rest take away core bard features and replace them with things that are just not as useful on a day-to-day basis, or which are similar but generally a lot less exciting. There's a number that have some things that might be interesting to build around, but are spoiled by some pretty unpalatable trades.
Arcane duelist.
I like the bonus feats, I like the arcane bond, bladethirst is way cooler than suggestion, the extra armor proficiencies down the line. The magus wishes he was as cool as the arcane duelist.
Vanilla bard.
None of the bard archetypes are worth it in the end. In fact, few archetypes of any class are worth it, and that's the way I want things to be. You can get real specific with your character concept but there isn't a parade of new books that obsolete the old ones.
Why do you say that lincoln about the bard archetypes?
Because I play a bard, and I tried to make both archaeologist and archivist work.
Also, I GM a game with decent PC turnover. That is where I get my opinion on archetypes in general. It is just an opinion, though.
Because I play a bard, and I tried to make both archaeologist and archivist work.
Also, I GM a game with decent PC turnover. That is where I get my opinion on archetypes in general. It is just an opinion, though.
I know that a bard can give great damage bonuses I just don't remember the combinations. Could you lead me towards a guide or give some advice yourself on how to accomplish such a thing?
Besides the already mentioned Archeologist and Arcane Duelist, I'm a big fan of the Animal Speaker. You get to keep Inspire Courage, and get a pile of neat animal-related abilities. You probably don't get an overall boost in power, but there is something special about being even better with animals than a Druid.
I would like to see errata forcing players to roleplay the tea ceremony. In real time.
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I would like to see errata forcing players to roleplay the tea ceremony. In real time.
That would be amusing. Except that my players might try to lynch me, because I have the proper equipment and supplies, and enough knowledge of it, that I could pull off a half-way decent Japanese tea ceremony.
to the original question...
I think the Archeologist is my favorite kit, but I haven't had a chance to try out a Bard in Pathfinder yet. The purpose I have for an Archeologist, if the campaign develops, is to play a character as sort of a magical rogue/scholar & well, an archeologist of sorts (in a game where combat is not expected to be particularly heavy).
If I recall correctly, nothing stops the geisha from just using plain old inspire courage. It's just an option.
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Dawnflower Dervish looks interestingly weird, but the two bards I've created so far haven't have been vanilla non-archetype versions.
My attitude towards archetypes is similar to Evil Lincoln - I don't think archetypes should invalidate the vanilla build. But I think Paizo has mostly done a good job in that area. The archetypes give options that aren't necessarily better than vanilla, and a few of them actually do seem worse. Not that I've looked over every class and its archetypes, but the only one I've seen where the vanilla class is no longer as good as an archetype is the Invulnerable Rager Barbarian.
Probably the biggest problem with the Archaeologist and the archivist both is that they can't really fill out the skill roles that the class abilities seem to open up for them. The bard doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill, and the archaeologist should for obvious reasons. The archivist's magic lore is similarly hobbled by this.
Normally, a class skill or not isn't a big deal for me, but in the case of Disable Device it is "go big or go home".
The archivist looks interesting at first glance, but you quickly find in practice that Lamentable Belabourment is hobbled by the clause that ends the effect if the target is damaged. That makes it even more inferior to confusion as a spell.
I've yet to see an archetype that didn't underwhelm me (with the exception of obvious bummer mistakes like the synthesist) and honestly that's how I prefer it!
Lamentable Belaborment can also Daze an enemy. Besides...anything that modifies Fascination is not a combat ability. Combat instantly breaks Fascination.
The Archaeologist's Trapfinding is also better than the Rogue's trapfinding, since it just gives a flat half level to Perception. And that's notably not limited to just Perception checks to find traps. It's true that not getting Disable Device as a class skill hurts a little bit, but a trait can fix that easily if you think traps will occur a lot. Just looking at some CR 14-16 traps, with their ability always to take 10 and half their level, they can easily beat all of them. 16 ranks in DD, maybe +1 from dex, +2 from tools, +8 from trapfinding. And we can beat a trap whose DC is 37 or less. That's all of the CR 14-16 traps released by Paizo. At lower levels, even the rogue is going have to roll well to disable the traps.
So yes. They can really use the disable device trait if they want to focus on that.
But what do they get above and beyond what the rogue gets, to make up for having to take a trait?
* half their level to all Perception checks.
* a free rogue talent (Fast Picks)
* Another free rogue talent (Quick Disable)
Would you take a trait to get two free rogue talents (which are roughly equivalent to a feat), as well as half your level to Perception? I know I would.
Funny. I read it at first as "Bad Archetypes!" and when I looked at the thread went "huh? why are they picking on bards?" :)
All I can say, cheapy, is that I tried really hard to make it work. And it turns out, the best build I could make work for my bard, who is an archaeologist and scholar (but not the archetype) and needed to fill in as trap-springer for the party, was to go vanilla bard.
If other people like the archetypes, that's great. I don't think they're overpowered, which is fantastic. But I haven't seen one yet that I though was better than the vanilla bard, and that's weird because I generally dislike the flavor of the vanilla bard (though not vanilla ice cream, yummy!)
Soundstriker is one of the ones where if you aren't going to be need Suggestion (as in, social intrigue is very rare), you may as well take it. Always having some weapon is nice.
And if you can convince your GM to let Harmonic Spell work with Weird Words, all the better. It *technically* works since you aren't starting the performance, just switching to it. But therein lies the path of cheese...
I like the archaeologist for very larger than life, Indiana Johnes style pulp archaeologists. They have absolutely nothing to do with real archaeology, but that's not much of a deal, being a game and all. Most times I've seen it used in play either the person picks a trait to get Disable Device, or the GM hand waves it as an oversight.