Barbarians can put out a lot of damage, but Fighters are designed to be more balanced. A fighter is a tank, it is suppose to soak up hits more so then anything else. You can build a barbarian to shine better in pretty much any area a fighter does, but in doing so, you will sacrifice far more then the fighter will.You guys are being willfully dumb. C'mon.
Shield proficiency is NOT armor Proficiency. Armor training is NOT shield training. C'mon, that is not an argument.
I will take immediate counterpoint to this. Fighters can and will deal out more damage...with their primary, specialized weapon.
This does not make Fighters more balanced, it makes them more SPECIALIZED.
From better defenses (Superstitious, Raging Will Saves, magic heals, DR as they level, etc) to better offenses (Pounce, Come and Get me) to incredible special abilities (Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, higher move) and more skill points with a better list, the barbarian is far, far better all around then the fighter is.
As soon as a Fighter moves away from their primary strength, they start sucking. For a barbarian, the weapon basically does not matter.
You cannot build a fighter to shine in every area the barbarian can. You can build a barbarian to shine in any given area a Fighter can, except perhaps Archery...and he'll be much, much better at all sorts of other tasks.
I don't like it, but that's the way it is.
==Aelryinth
just because a fighter doesn't have Dex at +7 doesn't mean he looses the benefit of Armor Training. To me the full speed is worth more than the added Dex bonus. Also reducing the Armor Check Penalty is also quite nice too. Why does a Fighter need to have Mithril Armor? he has a class ability that makes all his armor better than Mithril without needing to pay for it. I am not saying that a Fighter SHOULD dump Dex, but he CAN, meaning that if his Dex is 12 or 10 then he is still a viable character. The Barb on the other hand Needs to have at least a 12, and most likely a 13 at least to get Dodge and to take advantage of Uncanny Dodge. A Barbarian is going to need to scrounge for every point of AC because he can't use heavy armor and gets -2 when raging.
go to youtube, look up martial artists breaking boards with their bare hands, not follow that reasoning to a guy with a metal gauntlet breaking a ax handle. Seems plenty suitable to me.A spiked gauntlet isn't a suitable tool for sundering. You do have to have the right tool...it's in the description.
I keep swords in my quiver
Since when does a quiver hold a sword? Also, it's going to be an inferior weapon to your primary...and I can then sunder that even more easily. Leaving you with a spiked gauntlet you suck with.
now go to youtube and bring me up a video of martial artists sundering a metal bar.
No?
As an aside, me and a friend took our characters and sparred a bit. His Barbarian vs my Fighter. We didn't do it to the death, just 6 rounds to check out the 'Come at Me' power in effect. We both have Greatswords.
The first round, he did it and hit all of them. Was pretty scary, I gotta admit. We did about comparable damage.
The second and third time, he only landed one of his attacks while I landed on average two.
The last three times, however, I figured out how to kind of work around it by just doing Improved Vital Strike, giving him only one attack. I landed all of my hits while he was only able to land one. I did more damage to him than he could to me with Vital Strike and Power Attack. Plus the +4 to attacking him made up for not using my specialized weapon (I use polearms instead but I wanted to test it with a different weapon). Overall, I'm impressed with Come At Me, but it can be worked around against the barbarian.
I think people are focusing way too much on PvP. Fighter vs. Barbarian in party role is what this thread is discussing, not who is going to win in a fight. What it really comes down to is initiative when you have a optimized pissing contest. In terms of Tanking/vs DPR/vs Utility I think the barbarian comes out a bit ahead in terms of balance. If only fighters had access to more utility like the barbarian rage powers.
Yesgo to youtube, look up martial artists breaking boards with their bare hands, not follow that reasoning to a guy with a metal gauntlet breaking a ax handle. Seems plenty suitable to me.A spiked gauntlet isn't a suitable tool for sundering. You do have to have the right tool...it's in the description.
I keep swords in my quiver
Since when does a quiver hold a sword? Also, it's going to be an inferior weapon to your primary...and I can then sunder that even more easily. Leaving you with a spiked gauntlet you suck with.
now go to youtube and bring me up a video of martial artists sundering a metal bar.
No?
LOL!
That's pretty cool, but it's not sundering a sword and you know it ;) Actually, they specifically said it was an IRON bar...and Iron is brittle. You can break an iron bar with a sharp blow from a hammer...it's why people don't make weapons out of iron anymore. A cast iron item can shatter if you drop it on stone.
And I don't expect your fighter to try sundering my greatsword with his forehead as I swing at him. It's made of steel, not iron.
But I salute you...I challenged, and you delivered!
===Aelryinth
As an aside, me and a friend took our characters and sparred a bit. His Barbarian vs my Fighter. We didn't do it to the death, just 6 rounds to check out the 'Come at Me' power in effect. We both have Greatswords.
The first round, he did it and hit all of them. Was pretty scary, I gotta admit. We did about comparable damage.
The second and third time, he only landed one of his attacks while I landed on average two.
The last three times, however, I figured out how to kind of work around it by just doing Improved Vital Strike, giving him only one attack. I landed all of my hits while he was only able to land one. I did more damage to him than he could to me with Vital Strike and Power Attack. Plus the +4 to attacking him made up for not using my specialized weapon (I use polearms instead but I wanted to test it with a different weapon). Overall, I'm impressed with Come At Me, but it can be worked around against the barbarian.
Um, I may be wrong, but did he get to attack on his turn? Because that sounds REALLY strange.
If you're doing Vital Strike Spring Attacks, he should be getting charges on you...or at the very least readying an action. He should always be getting at least 2:1 attacks on you. Hmm.
Note also it improves by level, since your hit % grows faster then opponent's AC as you level.
===Aelryinth
Yesgo to youtube, look up martial artists breaking boards with their bare hands, not follow that reasoning to a guy with a metal gauntlet breaking a ax handle. Seems plenty suitable to me.A spiked gauntlet isn't a suitable tool for sundering. You do have to have the right tool...it's in the description.
I keep swords in my quiver
Since when does a quiver hold a sword? Also, it's going to be an inferior weapon to your primary...and I can then sunder that even more easily. Leaving you with a spiked gauntlet you suck with.
now go to youtube and bring me up a video of martial artists sundering a metal bar.
No?
LOL!
That's pretty cool, but it's not sundering a sword and you know it ;) And I don't expect your fighter to try sundering my greatsword with his forehead as I swing at him.
===Aelryinth
---I DO NOT PROMOTE PVP IN THIS DISCUSSION---
but if I did..,You would use Sunder on your attack of opportunity as he swings from CaGM to break his weapon. Assuming you won initiative.
Or use Knockback to push him ~10 feat away (Strength Surge) so he can effectively do nothing.
I think in the context of PVP, a fighter can be designed to defeat a barbarian and vice versa. However, in general, against creatures that are not specifically designed to defeat a certain type of character, the barbarian has a clear advantage once he can take Pounce and Come and Get Me. If the GM allows rage cyclng, then the barbarian has an even greater advantage.
There is a small problem with Come and Get me. Unless you have Combat Reflexes, you are only allowed one attack of opportunity per round.
I know the entry for Come and Get me says different but the core rulebook says different.
I'm assuming Combat Reflexes are a given with Come and Get Me, although it would be very nice indeed if Combat Reflexes are redundant with CaGM...
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Hehe...ok: it looks like we turn to a PVP challenge, which istn´t a bad thing, if not taken too seriously, just for fun.
:)
steve
Trying to do PC challenges on a forum really lead to nothing because they aren't very accurate. You would need ongoing campaign data to actually get something resembling accurate data.
And thus we learn that the necromancer trumps the barbarian and the fighter.
Though I think the actual comparison has shifted a bit more in the fighter's favor in the last couple years. The Martial Master, Mutation Warrior, and Eldritch Guardian archetypes are all nice boosts for the fighter, while the Barbarian hasn't gotten any new shiny archetypes.
Except of course for the fact the fighter hasn't received:
1) Any bonuses to skills.
2) Any better defenses, especially saves...although I suppose they can potentially access Blindfighting on demand...
3) any increased movement abilities. They are all general feats...
which, of course, were the main things the fighter was lacking in the first place.
==Aelryinth
Except of course for the fact the fighter hasn't received:
1) Any bonuses to skills.
2) Any better defenses, especially saves...although I suppose they can potentially access Blindfighting on demand...
3) any increased movement abilities. They are all general feats...which, of course, were the main things the fighter was lacking in the first place.
==Aelryinth
Well, Mutatation Warrior does give an option for in-class flight, and Eldritch Guardian upgrades bravery to work on mind-affecting effects.
But yeah, I'd have to agree that overall the Barbarian still has the advantage. Fighter's just gotten some nice new stuff to close the gap a little bit. If you take a specific combination or archetypes.
The Barbarian now has access to a better version of in class flight that doesn't restrict him from taking Pounce (Greater Elemental Blood: Air >>> Dragon Totem Wings). He also now has access to what basically amounts to in-class True Seeing that isn't negated by Mind Blank (Ultimate Clarity).
So all in all, Barbarians aged rather gracefully, even without the billion+ archetypes the Fighter gets to supplant his poor class features with actually useful ones.
The Barbarian now has access to a better version of in class flight that doesn't restrict him from taking Pounce (Greater Elemental Blood: Air >>> Dragon Totem Wings). He also now has access to what basically amounts to in-class True Seeing that isn't negated by Mind Blank (Ultimate Clarity).
So all in all, Barbarians aged rather gracefully, even without the billion+ archetypes the Fighter gets to supplant his useful class features with other ones and not actually get new ones that he needs on top of the few useful ones he has.
Fixed that for ya.
==Aelryinth