Magic Items: Getting and Losing them

[Crimson Sword]

Is there a particular formula that GMs follow when it comes to giving out magic items? Some are rather powerful with simple effects, fire or keen, etc. Personally, I'm wary of handing them out.

I also notice that sunder item is an option to destroying them, how often do you apply this to players? Sometimes it doesn't seem too hard to turn someone's +2 vorpal blade into scrap metal.

[Khrysaor]

As a GM, you need to be keeping track of PC wealth, comparing it to the WBL table or whatever table you've designed for your games, and compare your parties power compared to encounters. Remember what each thing is. A +1 Keen sword is a +2 sword worth 8000gp. All weapons and armor must have at least a +1 before you can apply the other upgrades.

Sundering PC items is usually a quick way to get players to leave your table. Especially if you did it to a +2 vorpal sword. Thats a +7 weapon worth 98000gp. Unless that player's about to be coming into some wealth, you've extremely gimped them.

No one follows any formula for wealth they just try to hand out items in accordance with the WBL table. The table is designed as a guideline for character wealth to keep them relative to other tables, like the CR table, for standard fantasy games.

[Cheapy]

Sundering is easy to fix in PF, with the Make Whole spell.

[Aleron]

Just to add onto that, keep in mind it is a guideline, however. The DM may or may not follow it and that is something best asked of the individual DM. Personally I tend to give out a bit more loot than the WBL says, but there are also stretches where they have got less due to the enemies they were fighting or the fact I was giving them a bit of a dry spell so that the hoard they just uncovered would seem all the sweeter. Other DMs prefer a very low magic item sort of game though.

Generally though I would recommend not erring on the side of caution. It's very easy to give stuff out, not as easy to take it back...

[Akumamajin]

There are a few things to consider.

First: everything that you give an enemy NPC to vex the players will find its way into their hands sooner or later. So it is advised not to deck out the entire enemy platoon with +1 weapons.

Second: defeating the enemies and looting their stuff makes the players feel good and let them think that they earned it. Taking it away lets them feel cheated or unfairly punished.

Third: many modules or CR of creatures are written with the assumption in mind, that the PCs have access to a certain level of magic items. The lists in the Corebook show you in quite detail, how much treasure every PC should have about at every level. This is the closest thing to a GM formula.

Of course, this is not allways easy to achieve and can lead to something called the christmastree effect, where every character is decked out with magic items and everyone needs items that up their AC, to hit and saves.

I don't like this that much and don't give out redundant items that much. If every item counts and is something special or somehow useful, magic items will stay wonderful. Otherwise they can end up in the bag of holding with the other unused stuff.

You can ask your players, if they really, really want certain items and then can arrange for them to find them in a dungeon/hear a legend about the items whereabouts / take them out of the dead hands of the boss of the week.

Now, how to get rid of items that you deem to powerful? Best of, if you think something is too unbalancing, don't give it to the PCs in the first hand, so don't give it to an opposing NPC, either. This can be circumvented a little bit by giving the bad guys items that the party can't use, be it unsuitable weapons or stuff like unholy or elfenbane enchantments, that they may loath to use themselfs.

Other tricks have been tried in the past, like the magic alloys of the drow, that only work underground, but turn to dust under sunlight or need the presence of the magic city that they are attuned to. This can sometimes feel cheap, sometimes work off.

Sometimes the players do help you, I have a barbarian PC how portraits his character very much like the Conan from the books. That means, that he will use what ever weapon is at hand, but discard it at a moments notice when things develop that way, be it that he got disarmed and just took the next gnolls battered club instead of the +1 battleaxe lying a few feets aways or useing his +1 greatsword to block a descending stone door. Granted, not many players will do this, but I really compliment that player for this behavior and can try out many different weapons and enchantments without fear to clog the game with it :)

So, while any weapon can be sundered, stolen or lost, don't do this too often or your players might feel cheated and unhappy. Better thing before introducing a new item, and maybe you can develop a story hook to get rid of an item (they need to cannibalize an item for its magic power to power up an ancient artifact or portal or mcguffin).

But in the end, a little bit over equipped PCs won't break your game, so just let them have fun :)

[Chief Cook and Bottlewasher]

I ask for a wishlist from my players from time to time (with the understanding that it doesn't guarantee the items turn up as loot). I sometimes give magical items or enchantments as rewards. If they're selling stuff the purchaser (especially a church) might offer potions or scrolls as part payment. If they're taking on a job (look into disturbances at a graveyard, perhaps) they might be given useful items like CLW potions.

I like to have fun with mundane treasure as well, like 'a tiny platinum cat with emeralds for the eyes'. I think my favourite to date was them going through a long abandoned wizard's house to deal with any hazards, and I scoured the chapter on spells for components: they found gold dust, ruby dust, emerald dust, a silver scrying mirror...

[Joyd]

I use a wishlist system, combined with fairly generous magic-item-for-sale availability. One thing that I try to do to keep magic items special-feeling is to give most things with a total of +4-ish of enchantments or more specific names and/or layer random minor abilities onto them, ranging from the vaguely-useful (dagger spins to point north when placed on the ground and glows near kobolds) to the flavorful-but-mostly-useless (axehead always shows a reflection of a full moon, regardless of how full the moon actually is; goggles allow wearer to detect how inebriated a target is) to the slightly-but-not-meaningfully detrimental (headband gradually grays wearer's hair when worn for long periods, until it is removed; wand of Cure Light Wounds leaves a deity's symbol on the skin of those who it used on, which fades over the next hour.)

I also try to present weapons as being things that aren't just "a guy with a craft skill and the right spells made this +2 Axiomatic Seeking Longbow because that sounded useful to him" when it could be an Inevitable's wingbone or something that was used by a legendary zen archer for so long that part of who he was and how he used the weapon sort of seeped into it.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I don't keep track of my player's wealth at all, let them Craft whatever they please AND occasionally steal, sunder or destroy their stuff if a monster, encounter or the story calls for it.

We all have fun.

Nobody feels gimped.

Hands up if I just wrinkled your brain.

[Crimson Sword]

My players are unfortunately not in the role-playing (more roll-playing) stage yet to be willing to give up their items to circumstance without some protest. I'll use the chart for guidance but the wishlist idea is something I haven't heard of and will probably implement.

[Lincoln Hills]

I try to be stingy with magical items - any 'permanent' item should be a remarkable enough find that the PC who has it will never forget how it was acquired. Even when I stat hostile NPC adventurers I rarely tend to have more than 1 item per 2 character levels (and more than half of those are minor and/or one-use items.)

I also make it a point to occasionally include adversaries such as gray oozes, rust monsters, thieves with Improved Steal and a good running speed, and similar enemies that act to damage or steal items.

Wealth-per-level is a very useful guide for GMs who are starting out, but once you've developed an instinct for game balance you'll soon find yourself using it as a very loose guideline. For example, bane weapons or armor that provides resistance to one element are fun items that you can introduce without too much concern for balance: yet armor that provides SR 11 or flaming/frost/shock weapons, despite being roughly equal by WPL standards, have a much more serious impact on the party's power level. A cloak of arachnida has several minor functions that make it a fun item, yet it doesn't have as much combat applicability as a cloak of resistance +2... And so on.

[Reynard_the_fox]

We had a villain in one of our games that had twin lightning/fire swords. Before I joined the game, apparently he threw the lightning sword (a short sword of +3 shocking) at our orc (burying it halfway into her stomach) before fleeing, so our ranger yanked it out, we patched ms. barbarian up, and BINGO! New lightning sword.

Of course, he then took it back a few sessions later.

In our penultimate encounter (now that I've joined as a rogue), he throws the lightning sword AGAIN, and once more it is buried in our orc; ranger gets it again. However, in the final battle, the ranger falls; I pick up the sword and skewer a wizard with it, keeping it afterwards (much to the chagrin/jealousy of said ranger). Unfortunately, the very next session, I'm sent in disguised to a somewhat hostile town to pawn some rubies, and since I'm afraid the ranger will find the sword if I hide it outside the town (damn scent tracking!) I keep it with me; lo and behold, I'm captured by the local thieve's guild and THEY take it.

Two sessions later and we're finally finishing off the leader of the guild, who of course has my sword. Due to the luck of the draw, my initiative comes before the ranger after we kill him, and I beeline for the fallen sword (at 3 hp). We'll see how long I keep it...

TL,DR: Creating contention and/or tension over a magic item by taking it away and giving it back CAN make for an interesting bit of roleplaying, but please let us get at least a few uses out of an item before we lose it.

[Gnomezrule]

All this touchy feely about the players will feel robbed. I don't get this. If it makes logical sense for the enemy to do it . . . do it. That is part of the nature of creating an emersive game. Sundering is not always the best strategic move though.