Fascism Alive and Well in 2012


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Urizen wrote:
... more like the entire Internet.

More like almost every political discussion about these topics, everywhere.

Maybe that is the root of the problem.


Urizen wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
... and the entire thread becomes one big tu quoque.
... more like the entire Internet.

The entire thread becomes the entire internet?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Urizen wrote:
... more like the entire Internet.

Try the entire human race. Most people take the argument that agrees with them and ditch the underlying principles the second those principles turn against them.


I don't know what "tu quoque" means and I refuse to look it up.

More of John Wayne behaving badly at 7:20-8:00.


Irontruth wrote:
This was a local program, where the local community had decided what it wanted in its schools. If the parents had a problem with it, they could have voted in a new school board. Instead, some non-local government office holder decided they didn't like how that community ran itself and got their group to impose its will on the local community.

If this is true, and I have no idea whether it is or isn't, it is delicious.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Urizen wrote:
... more like the entire Internet.
Try the entire human race. Most people take the argument that agrees with them and ditch the underlying principles the second those principles turn against them.

The Dirty Rotten Imbeciles offers their own summary.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

I don't know what "tu quoque" means and I refuse to look it up.

More of John Wayne behaving badly at 7:20-8:00.

Its the "you too" fallacy. If the other person did it then you doing it is ok.

Philosophy has an amazing ability to complicate and fancify playground arguing rules...


And sociology has an amazing ability to study it quantitatively and qualitatively.


Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Thank you Steven Tindal and the others for silencing the "Hate & blame Whites for everything" crowd. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion, you speak for many.

Thank you!
hate and blame whites for everything? Just as bad as holding them, or any groups in history, utterly blameless.

What are you advocating is the next step, collective racial punishment?

If America is as fascist as some say how are advocates of social justice or revisionist historians allowed to say their piece?

Just saying....

Those words really don't fit in my mouth, so please don't try shoving them in there....

That's what she said!!!

More seriously, no. Didn't say that, and I'm thinking I may not be able to have much of a rational conversation with you if this is the direction you're taking things in. Besides, collective racial punishment has been performed several times throughout history with horrid, stomach churning results.

I like the joke! LOL.

Seriously, in a nutshell if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume your looking for a punishment. You did not say it but I'm just wondering if you thought about what your statement is implying.


I don't think it implied anything as horrid as punishing every white person on the face of the earth. That's just dumb. But if that is what you saw in what I said, then for the love of god, I apologize. That's not what I meant at all, that's just terrible. Nor would I want to lead a land/sea/air invasion into Africa/Portugal/many Arabic nations to slaughter the descendants of those who worked with white people to sell my ancestors into slavery. That would be stupid. All I meant, and I firmly believe all I said, was that holding while people or any group completely blameless for whatever ills they committed in history is just as bad as blaming them for everything. Pointing out the atrocities in history should be unbiased and unblinking and make everyone equally embarrassed.


Freehold DM wrote:
Pointing out the atrocities in history should be unbiased and unblinking and make everyone equally embarrassed.

Unh uh. Goblins didn't do shiznit.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Pointing out the atrocities in history should be unbiased and unblinking and make everyone equally embarrassed.
Unh uh. Goblins didn't do shiznit.

I'm pretty sure goblins kill and eat people.


Freehold, if anyone thought you were saying that, they had to want it.

But look everyone, we've gone from the (admittedly sensationally named) thread topic to, "Why do you hate white people?"

I love you, internet.


Freehold DM wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Pointing out the atrocities in history should be unbiased and unblinking and make everyone equally embarrassed.
Unh uh. Goblins didn't do shiznit.
I'm pretty sure goblins kill and eat people.

Lies! Spread by Paizo!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Pointing out the atrocities in history should be unbiased and unblinking and make everyone equally embarrassed.
Unh uh. Goblins didn't do shiznit.

I don't care how catchy the song is, we're not going to believe you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I wonder how many of the flame wars on this topic are based on this disconnect.

One side says "This group did some really bad things in the past." The other side hears "We need to punish the descendents of that group" and reacts to that, not surprisingly as they are often descendents of that group who didn't do anything wrong themselves.

Quote:
if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume your looking for a punishment.

Overwhelmingly, I would say that is not true. It certainly isn't true for me. There are reasons beyond punishment to assign blame or, more accurately, search for the truth about what happened and why. Truth is valuable in itself. History holds lessons for the present that can only be valid if the history you're learning from is right.

Claiming "white people" or "America" are always right is just as wrong and damaging as claiming they're always wrong.


Aretas wrote:


I like the joke! LOL.
Seriously, in a nutshell if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume your looking for a punishment. You did not say it but I'm just wondering if you thought about what your statement is implying.

A simplification that helps me explain why punishment isn't the end result.

Let's build a scenario. Your family has lived in the same house for several generations. Another family has lived in another house across the street for several generations.

You and the peer generation across the street do not get along, most of the animosity stemming from something that happened between your grandfathers. Their grandfather "borrowed" your families plow and never gave it back. Everyone "knows" he stole it, but it was never proven. It caused your family to have a failed crop one year, which lost your families life savings. This meant your dad couldn't go to college. This made it harder for your dad to earn enough money to send you to college.

Your family still remembers and tells the story of the plow. The other family denies it ever happened. Both your grandfathers, and even your fathers, are long dead. Would you still demand the person your age be punished for the crime(which he didn't commit)? Or would you feel better and be able to move on if they just acknowledged what happened?


Irontruth wrote:
Your family still remembers and tells the story of the plow. The other family denies it ever happened. Both your grandfathers, and even your fathers, are long dead. Would you still demand the person your age be punished for the crime(which he didn't commit)? Or would you feel better and be able to move on if they just acknowledged what happened?

So, just to be sure: you're saying the Hatfields and McCoys did it wrong?

I know, it was a over pig, but still...


Aretas wrote:
Seriously, in a nutshell if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume you[']r[e] looking for a punishment.

Why would you immediately assume that? That seems to speak of an unhealthy obsession with punishment on your part.

If I complain that the rain ruined my picnic, does that mean I want you to help me "punish" the weather? More likely, it just means I'm verbally acknowledging to you that next time I should check the weather report. It doesn't mean, either, that I necessarily want you to punish me for not doing so.

Every instance of cause and effect that leads to a sub-optimal result doesn't automatically become magically corrected just by whupping someone for it!


[]Seriously, in a nutshell if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume your looking for a punishment.

That doesn't follow, especially in history, where x group did y morally reprehensible thing is par for he course.


There was a story of some Egyptian Pharoah who had a river whipped for overflowing its banks once. Or something like that.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Of course it's nonsense, but that doesn't mean it's unique to Aretas.

As I said above, I wonder how much this idea underlies the opposition to accepting any version of history that admits America has ever done anything wrong. "Indians weren't really using the land." "US didn't really steal Texas and Arizona" "Slavery was just an economic necessity/everyone did it."

Doesn't all the denialism make more sense if the deniers think they'll be punished if they admit any guilt?


Freehold DM wrote:
There was a story of some Egyptian Pharoah who had a river whipped for overflowing its banks once. Or something like that.

Like the episode of Family Guy when someone drowned at sea -- Mayor Adam West decides he needs to stab the ocean to death with a kitchen knife.


thejeff wrote:

Of course it's nonsense, but that doesn't mean it's unique to Aretas.

As I said above, I wonder how much this idea underlies the opposition to accepting any version of history that admits America has ever done anything wrong. "Indians weren't really using the land." "US didn't really steal Texas and Arizona" "Slavery was just an economic necessity/everyone did it."

Doesn't all the denialism make more sense if the deniers think they'll be punished if they admit any guilt?

I don't think anyone one this particular forum would ever fall into the trap of looking at history and denying the mistakes made by the previous citizens of this country. However those things happened so very long ago that any thought of punishment/retribution/revenge would be a very wasted and misguided effort.


Freehold DM wrote:
There was a story of some Egyptian Pharoah who had a river whipped for overflowing its banks once. Or something like that.

Fact-checking Doodlebug to the rescue!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Steven Tindall wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Of course it's nonsense, but that doesn't mean it's unique to Aretas.

As I said above, I wonder how much this idea underlies the opposition to accepting any version of history that admits America has ever done anything wrong. "Indians weren't really using the land." "US didn't really steal Texas and Arizona" "Slavery was just an economic necessity/everyone did it."

Doesn't all the denialism make more sense if the deniers think they'll be punished if they admit any guilt?

I don't think anyone one this particular forum would ever fall into the trap of looking at history and denying the mistakes made by the previous citizens of this country. However those things happened so very long ago that any thought of punishment/retribution/revenge would be a very wasted and misguided effort.

Right. And no one is talking about "punishment/retribution/revenge", except those claiming the only reason to even talk about the old injustices is "punishment/retribution/revenge".


I think white people should be spanked.


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Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
I think white people should be spanked.

*total thread derailment*

Ok I'll volunteer to spank all of the really young hot muscle guys.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Like the episode of Family Guy when someone drowned at sea -- Mayor Adam West decides he needs to stab the ocean to death with a kitchen knife.

I still think elementals should be crit-able so I Derek and I can flank the ocean and get Sneak Attack damage.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I still think elementals should be crit-able so I Derek and I can flank the ocean and get Sneak Attack damage.

Well, yeah, and don't forget Cadogan's Improved Flanking feat...


Gazebos have escaped blame for far too long, and deserve to be punished.


Steven Tindall wrote:


I don't think anyone one this particular forum would ever fall into the trap of looking at history and denying the mistakes made by the previous citizens of this country.

Could you speak up? The echo from that 30 foot pit trap you're standing in is creating quite a reverberation.

You DID fall for it. You excuse previous actions based on the same logic that justifies oppression and military force today. That's not an accident.


Freehold DM wrote:
I don't think it implied anything as horrid as punishing every white person on the face of the earth. That's just dumb. But if that is what you saw in what I said, then for the love of god, I apologize. That's not what I meant at all, that's just terrible. Nor would I want to lead a land/sea/air invasion into Africa/Portugal/many Arabic nations to slaughter the descendants of those who worked with white people to sell my ancestors into slavery. That would be stupid. All I meant, and I firmly believe all I said, was that holding while people or any group completely blameless for whatever ills they committed in history is just as bad as blaming them for everything. Pointing out the atrocities in history should be unbiased and unblinking and make everyone equally embarrassed.

Ok I gotcha, it's a good!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Seriously, in a nutshell if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume you[']r[e] looking for a punishment.

Why would you immediately assume that? That seems to speak of an unhealthy obsession with punishment on your part.

If I complain that the rain ruined my picnic, does that mean I want you to help me "punish" the weather? More likely, it just means I'm verbally acknowledging to you that next time I should check the weather report. It doesn't mean, either, that I necessarily want you to punish me for not doing so.

Every instance of cause and effect that leads to a sub-optimal result doesn't automatically become magically corrected just by whupping someone for it!

apples and oranges.


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Aretas wrote:
apples and oranges.

From your perspective, that might be. From mine, it's like someone sorting through M&Ms and throwing away the "W"s. From a standpoint of pure efficiency, punishment is a total waste of time, effort, and resources -- whether it's punishing people or punishing the ocean. Neither of them, past childhood, change their behavior because of it.


Irontruth wrote:
Aretas wrote:


I like the joke! LOL.
Seriously, in a nutshell if you say you wish to blame a certain group then I would assume your looking for a punishment. You did not say it but I'm just wondering if you thought about what your statement is implying.

A simplification that helps me explain why punishment isn't the end result.

Let's build a scenario. Your family has lived in the same house for several generations. Another family has lived in another house across the street for several generations.

You and the peer generation across the street do not get along, most of the animosity stemming from something that happened between your grandfathers. Their grandfather "borrowed" your families plow and never gave it back. Everyone "knows" he stole it, but it was never proven. It caused your family to have a failed crop one year, which lost your families life savings. This meant your dad couldn't go to college. This made it harder for your dad to earn enough money to send you to college.

Your family still remembers and tells the story of the plow. The other family denies it ever happened. Both your grandfathers, and even your fathers, are long dead. Would you still demand the person your age be punished for the crime(which he didn't commit)? Or would you feel better and be able to move on if they just acknowledged what happened?

I believe I understand your analogy. Has the plow been given back to the children of the farmer? Are certain minority entitlements a way of replacing that historic plow?


"Past wrong are not to be put to rights because they are past." does not seem a very good argument to me.

How long? Yesterday, last generation, a century ago, a minute ago?

I do not think the idea of justice has an expiration date.


"Past wrong are not to be put to rights because they are past."

So how are these wrongs put to rights?

"How long? Yesterday, last generation, a century ago, a minute ago?

I do not think the idea of justice has an expiration date."

Dispensing justice will have clear winners and losers. Look at history.


Aretas wrote:

"Past wrong are not to be put to rights because they are past."

So how are these wrongs put to rights?

"How long? Yesterday, last generation, a century ago, a minute ago?

I do not think the idea of justice has an expiration date."

Dispensing justice will have clear winners and losers. Look at history.

Your conception of justice seems to be quite biblical. Why should the person or group giving a just compensation be seen as "loosing" something?

Violence and retaliation is, I hope, not the only way to be just.


CunningMongoose wrote:
Aretas wrote:

"Past wrong are not to be put to rights because they are past."

So how are these wrongs put to rights?

"How long? Yesterday, last generation, a century ago, a minute ago?

I do not think the idea of justice has an expiration date."

Dispensing justice will have clear winners and losers. Look at history.

Your conception of justice seems to be quite biblical. Why should the person or group giving a just compensation be seen as "loosing" something?

Violence and retaliation is, I hope, not the only way to be just.

Forgive your enemy Biblical?

Anyway, this coversation is rolling into the arena of reparations, affirmative action, class warfare, ect, ect. Lets just skip the topic and spend some time warming up our d20's.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That's the only class warfare I enjoy.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
That's the only class warfare I enjoy.

HUZZAH!


Paul Watson wrote:
proudgeek159 wrote:
Good Lord! How stupid! What really pisses me off is that it's going to be even more diffficult for me, as a conservative, to have principled discussions with liberals. Thanks to this yahoo, it'll give liberal bigots even more of an excuse to write me off as an ignorant racist.
Because calling liberals bigots is obviously a sign of wanting an intelligent and mature discussion. I'll have to remember that.

Seriously. Here we all are, with a real chance to be on the same side, and somebody has to bring up left-vs-right.


No war but the class war!

Vive le Galt!


Aretas wrote:
I believe I understand your analogy. Has the plow been given back to the children of the farmer? Are certain minority entitlements a way of replacing that historic plow?

It hasn't been given back and never will. The past is over, we can't undo it. Trying to give everything back would be extremely complicated and punish people who didn't actually do the taking.

It depends on what you're considering an "entitlement". Welfare, food stamps, headstart and medicaid don't have anything to do with race or ethnicity. If you're talking about Affirmative Action, you're right.

The good thing about Affirmative Action for things like college admissions is that it's still on the individual take advantage of the opportunity. It isn't a handout. They still have to get good grades, they still have to turn that diploma into a career, but we still have the ability to make sure they have that chance.

Life isn't a zero-sum gain. Acknowledging past wrongs gives us the opportunity to make things better for everyone involved. Ignoring those wrongs, denying that they ever happened makes it easier to ignore the problems that have arisen as a consequence.

We tend to have a rosy view of progress in this country. We tend to ignore some of the awful things that have happened.

If you know someone who is 48 years old (or older), than you know someone who was alive in this country when the last black man was lynched. Were they there, or do they remember it? Probably not. Neither were they responsible. We cannot act as if racism and violence are things of the distant past to be forgotten and glossed over.


Ok, so the last Black man was lynched 48 years ago. Thats terrible.
Equally terrible is the unreported acts of violence against Whites by minorities.

We live now, not in the past. Everyone in this country is hurting to get by and succeed. Everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement. Nobobdy is holding anyone down. Its my opinion that race should not be a factor in college admission and it should not be a factor in the work place.

This might not go well with some but its the truth. Qualified and/or over qualified Whites are being passed over in college admissions and the work place to minorities.

As a son of immigrant parents who came to the US with nothing I would scrap affirmative action.


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Aretas wrote:
Everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement.

I live in southern california, some of the schools here are getting IPads for the students to use while other schools are falling apart because they can't get enough funding for basic maintenance.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:


I don't think anyone one this particular forum would ever fall into the trap of looking at history and denying the mistakes made by the previous citizens of this country.

Could you speak up? The echo from that 30 foot pit trap you're standing in is creating quite a reverberation.

You DID fall for it. You excuse previous actions based on the same logic that justifies oppression and military force today. That's not an accident.

? ok now I'm slightly confused. At what point in this thread have I ever excused the horrible things that have been done by our government or their agents?

I believe we have a disagreement as to whats wrong or right and as to whats just or not but we both agree some mistakes have been made in the past.

It still amazes me that so few people know about the fact that government agents kidnapped an entire generation of Indian children and sent them away for reeducation. Took away their right to speak their own language and culture then justified it as a way of helping them assimilate to modern culture. I can never find any justification for things like that but at the same time I can do nothing to fix it either. Whats to be done? we learn from it, never repeat it and move on.


Hippygriff wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement.

I live in southern California, some of the schools here are getting IPads for the students to use while other schools are falling apart because they can't get enough funding for basic maintenance.

Unfortunately that's everywhere. Take a look at some of the schools in areas like Charlotte, Raleigh or anywhere in Research Triangle Park vs the schools in the N.C. mountains like Cherokee county. The differences are shocking.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
I don't think anyone one this particular forum would ever fall into the trap of looking at history and denying the mistakes made by the previous citizens of this country.

Could you speak up? The echo from that 30 foot pit trap you're standing in is creating quite a reverberation.

You DID fall for it. You excuse previous actions based on the same logic that justifies oppression and military force today. That's not an accident.

? ok now I'm slightly confused. At what point in this thread have I ever excused the horrible things that have been done by our government or their agents?

I believe we have a disagreement as to whats wrong or right and as to whats just or not but we both agree some mistakes have been made in the past.
From earlier in this thread:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place.

If that wasn't an attempt to justify or excuse what was done to native Americans, I have no idea what it was.

Or:

Steven Tindall wrote:
As far as the slavery bit, everybody was buying at that time and if you'll look back you'll see that the Africans were selling their defeated foes into slavery.
Or:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Because according to the governing bodies of international law the land was NOT theirs due to the fact that they had no standing army, no government, none of the basic qualifications for a government.
Steven Tindall wrote:
It still amazes me that so few people know about the fact that government agents kidnapped an entire generation of Indian children and sent them away for reeducation. Took away their right to speak their own language and culture then justified it as a way of helping them assimilate to modern culture. I can never find any justification for things like that but at the same time I can do nothing to fix it either. Whats to be done? we learn from it, never repeat it and move on.

This I agree with completely. But doesn't teaching about it just promote racial hatred and division? Isn't it exactly this kind of thing that's being banned in the ethnic studies classes? Though focused on Hispanic rather than Native issues.

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