Fascism Alive and Well in 2012


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Aretas wrote:

I believe I have nailed down your angle in this whole mess in regards to Amercican foreign policy.

You hate America. At the same time you agree with American foreign policy on their intervention in the Balkans. (Bosnia & Kosovo)

In my learned opinion the US should have stayed out of both conflicts. In addition to that I believe we bombed the wrong combatants in both conflicts.

So my conclusion on your angle is this. Its very much akin to the opinions expressed by the French nationals of Arab decent I've had the pleasure to meet and mentioned earlier. America is evil and corrupt BUT when they are bombing non Arabs or non Muslims they support them 100%.
Thats all for now, got to get back to work and make more money to pay more taxes to fund the American war machine and imperialism that I sooooo greatly benefit from. (yea right) ; )

If you weren't so obviously a conservative, I would by now be inclined to think you are smoking something extra strong...

To be kind with you, I concede that I truly don't like YOUR VISION of the USA. I'm glad you aren't representative of all americans.

Moongoose just confirmed what I suspected : your numbers do not come from a government agency or a reputed research institute, but from a right wing political think tank. So, no cigar.

I hadn't had the time to dig much on this topic. I did consult the WHO 2011 report (www.who.int if you are truly interested), but it doesn't give details about different types of cancer. I did notice though that the global life expectancy was higher by a minimum of two years in Germany-France-UK than in the USA, and that the birth mortality was also lower. I went no further that that, on the very first page. These numbers do not mesh well with your hypothesis of a higher quality helthcare in the USA.

But that is anecdotal : our main discussion was about your claim that the USA are qualititavely different from other countries, and so not subject to the same rules.

Even if you had a better healthcare (which doesn't seem to be the case, and would anyway only benefit the 85 % of your population who can afford it), how would that demonstrate your claim?

Is that the only reason you can put forward to explain your feelings that the USA are different, above the others ?


More of John Wayne behaving poorly.

NSFW and politically incorrect. If you're real sensitive, go away!


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Just so people don't think I only hate America.

Funny read... :)

Just to make everybody at ease, and to get back on the thread original topic, let me remind you that France too used torture in a recent past, during the Algeria war.

The army wanted to stop bombings and used electrocution on FLN fellaghas and suspects as a mean of getting intelligence.

As it should be, this sad fact is taught in all (high) schools during history classes, along with the end result : 1) the local population, initially not very fond of bomb attacks, quickly shifted allegiance in very few years. Arresting and torturing one's neighbour makes wonders to foster unrest and hate ; 2) absolutely no bombings were prevented, the intelligence gained through torture being of very dubious value (as in, the suspect usually ended telling whatever the guy sitting by the switch wanted to hear).

We made that particular mistake, once. It's only sadder that you do it again. Your War on Terror is the best recuitment poster that Al Qaeda could have dreamed of, and all the Guantanamo and secret prisons system is for naught : you could have obtained the same results while upholding democratic principles.

You know, after 9/11, the whole world was behind you, supported you during the Afghanistan invasion, including the arab world. Then Bush Jr unilaterally invaded Iraq for dubious motives, opened Gitmo, and allowed torture, squandering in one stroke most of the US diplomatic image. I wonder who made more damage to the USA...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:

So, I've gotten to know a lot of your b/c of your political ideology. Do you guys play D&D/Pathfinder? LOL.

What campaigns are you guys/gals playing?

What characters are you currently playing?
I'd like to see your GAME faces not just your political ones. It just might make all of us look at one another as gamers first and the Love might spread a little.

Well, maybe that I don't get correctly your inuendo, but you seem to imply that I would be some sort of political activist, not a RPG gamer, with nothing more useful than promoting insurrection on a RPG forum.

Extra strong, indeed...

Okay, so be it : here is a link to my campaign journal. I have to warn you that it is written in french, but with some Google-fu you should be able to verify by yourself that it is quite devoid of marxist propaganda.

THAT is a deep cover, my friend !


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Irontruth wrote:
Health care is great in this country... if you can afford it.

Yep. We ration health care like we ration everything else -- those who can afford it get more/better.

Irontruth wrote:
The rules of this country are set up to reward wealth, not build it. A great example is Romney's tax returns. Capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than normal income. People rich enough to live off their investments are taxed less than people who work for a living.

When the ones with money are able to control the ones in office, the haves get to keep and build an economic barrier to keep out nearly all of the have-nots.

Smarnil le couard wrote:
You know, after 9/11, the whole world was behind you, supported you during the Afghanistan invasion, including the arab world. Then Bush Jr unilaterally invaded Iraq for dubious motives, opened Gitmo, and allowed torture, squandering in one stroke most of the US diplomatic image. I wonder who made more damage to the USA...

While this is oversimplified, I agree with the basics of it. Much of the goodwill the USA had at its back going into Afghanistan evaporated when Iraq became the target.


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Aretas wrote:
Perhaps it would have been better to say to the poster he has a strong contempt for America when he said America tortures on a whim.

"America" is a generalization, but yeah Us goverment support torture.

Aretas wrote:
They believe they are above international law.

Every year more that 100 countries votes for removing the embargo to cuba, the iraq invasion was without the consent of the UN, THe US governemnt have supported the overtrow of a lot of democratily elected presidents (the last one was a couple of year ago in Honduras), not to mention the support that the US goverment give to Israel ocuppied territory.

Yeah, the us goverment only obbey internatinal law when is convenient.

Aretas wrote:
Is a nice place to live only if your rich or healthy, and many more.

Actually, i would like to live in one of those Small towns, they seems to be very homely.

But, sadly the US have more than 40 million peole in poverty. is really a shame because your goverment waste a lot the money in wars (some justified but the majority is not), and wallstreet shamesly steal what is yours.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

I believe we've done a lot of wrong things and are still doing them. I think politicians play politics with war and peoples lives all the time. Pretty much every president since Woodrow Wilson has authorized some form of violence against foreign nationals who could hardly be considered a "clear and present" danger.

You posted some interesting facts about our health care. One fact you left out is the number of people who become bankrupt from medical expenses. 60% of all bankruptcies in this country in fact, or over 1.8 million people every year. The countries who had a lower survival rate of cancer patients all don't have that problem. Health care is great in this country... if you can afford it.

The rules of this country are set up to reward wealth, not build it. A great example is Romney's tax returns. Capital gains are taxed at a lower rate than normal income. People rich enough to live off their investments are taxed less than people who work for a living.

We do act like we are above the law. In fact, we refuse to sign any treaty for international regulations that could enforce those regulations if we are also subject to them. The major reason we pulled troops out of Iraq is that we couldn't get a SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) that included immunity for our troops from criminal prosecution. We say we believe in the "rule of law", but we refuse to help establish any true measure of it in the international community.

War is a tool for countries to get what they want. "Defending freedom" by attacking countries on the other side of the world that are no threat to the US is not a defensive stance, it's an excuse.

One can argue that there are things being defended, but they're not the lives of Americans, or the well-being of the middle class.

When Dick Cheney met with oil executives in a closed-door meeting to discuss energy policy, they didn't focus on renewables.

Yes war is a tool and an extention of politics. In the case of Iraq the U.S. took out Saddam who threatened his neighbors, tortured and killed his own citizens, used chemical weapons against his Kurdish population and invaded Kuwait. His regime was evil. He was a destabalizing force in the region and to our (U.S.) national interests. The world is a better place now that he is gone and Iraq is on the road in joining the world as a free society. It also sends a strong message to other tyrants as well.


Smarnil le couard wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Just so people don't think I only hate America.

Funny read... :)

Just to make everybody at ease, and to get back on the thread original topic, let me remind you that France too used torture in a recent past, during the Algeria war.

The army wanted to stop bombings and used electrocution on FLN fellaghas and suspects as a mean of getting intelligence.

As it should be, this sad fact is taught in all (high) schools during history classes, along with the end result : 1) the local population, initially not very fond of bomb attacks, quickly shifted allegiance in very few years. Arresting and torturing one's neighbour makes wonders to foster unrest and hate ; 2) absolutely no bombings were prevented, the intelligence gained through torture being of very dubious value (as in, the suspect usually ended telling whatever the guy sitting by the switch wanted to hear).

We made that particular mistake, once. It's only sadder that you do it again. Your War on Terror is the best recuitment poster that Al Qaeda could have dreamed of, and all the Guantanamo and secret prisons system is for naught : you could have obtained the same results while upholding democratic principles.

You know, after 9/11, the whole world was behind you, supported you during the Afghanistan invasion, including the arab world. Then Bush Jr unilaterally invaded Iraq for dubious motives, opened Gitmo, and allowed torture, squandering in one stroke most of the US diplomatic image. I wonder who made more damage to the USA...

I don't think the whole world as behind us after 9-11. I'm assuming you believe that America had it coming?
The war on terror is not a correct phrase. It should be named War on radical Islam. Until the US gets that straight and is honest with the American public we don't stand a chance in winning. This is an unconventional war were the Jihadist use American freedoms and liberties against their enemies. The Jihadist are not traditional combatants like in previouse wars, they are stateless.
Anyway, I'm a proud independent conservative and it seems we will never see eye to eye on these issues.


Aretas wrote:
Smarnil le couard wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Just so people don't think I only hate America.

Funny read... :)

Just to make everybody at ease, and to get back on the thread original topic, let me remind you that France too used torture in a recent past, during the Algeria war.

The army wanted to stop bombings and used electrocution on FLN fellaghas and suspects as a mean of getting intelligence.

As it should be, this sad fact is taught in all (high) schools during history classes, along with the end result : 1) the local population, initially not very fond of bomb attacks, quickly shifted allegiance in very few years. Arresting and torturing one's neighbour makes wonders to foster unrest and hate ; 2) absolutely no bombings were prevented, the intelligence gained through torture being of very dubious value (as in, the suspect usually ended telling whatever the guy sitting by the switch wanted to hear).

We made that particular mistake, once. It's only sadder that you do it again. Your War on Terror is the best recuitment poster that Al Qaeda could have dreamed of, and all the Guantanamo and secret prisons system is for naught : you could have obtained the same results while upholding democratic principles.

You know, after 9/11, the whole world was behind you, supported you during the Afghanistan invasion, including the arab world. Then Bush Jr unilaterally invaded Iraq for dubious motives, opened Gitmo, and allowed torture, squandering in one stroke most of the US diplomatic image. I wonder who made more damage to the USA...

I don't think the whole world as behind us after 9-11. I'm assuming you believe that America had it coming?
The war on terror is not a correct phrase. It should be named War on radical Islam. Until the US gets that straight and is honest with the American public we don't stand a chance in winning. This is an unconventional war were the Jihadist use American freedoms and

...

Aretas, can you please fix your quoting. It's very hard to tell what's yours and what you are replying to. It looks like you're putting your reply before the automatic closing [/quote]


2 people marked this as a favorite.

You might also occasionally check your spelling, capitalization, and grammar as well. If you're a conservative American, as you claim, then I'd think you'd be all in favor of requiring proficiency in English.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
Yes war is a tool and an extention of politics. In the case of Iraq the U.S. took out Saddam who threatened his neighbors, tortured and killed his own citizens, used chemical weapons against his Kurdish population and invaded Kuwait. His regime was evil. He was a destabalizing force in the region and to our (U.S.) national interests. The world is a better place now that he is gone and Iraq is on the road in joining the world as a free society. It also sends a strong message to other tyrants as well.

You mean he used the chemical agents that the US Commerce Department allowed to be sold to him?

But of course, we only supported him because Iran was a country we disliked so much.

Not that Iran has any reason to fear US meddling in their affairs

So, because we helped prop up a dictator in Iran, they eventually became an "unstable" country. To counteract this, we helped prop up a dictator in Iraq. Then he became a threat.

Where exactly is the American exceptionalism in all this?


Irontruth wrote:
You posted some interesting facts about our health care. One fact you left out is the number of people who become bankrupt from medical expenses. 60% of all bankruptcies in this country in fact, or over 1.8 million people every year. The countries who had a lower survival rate of cancer patients all don't have that problem. Health care is great in this country... if you can afford it.

I'm sure you weren't intending to suggest this, but it kind of looks as if you are saying it is better to be dead than bankrupt. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

As for not affording it, let's keep in mind that a large group of people not currently covered are young people working at jobs that do not automatically provide coverage. Often times they are given the option of having coverage if they pay for it from their wages (usually pre-taxes). A good portion of these people choose not to get health care because they are young and (at least superficially) healthy. It is not necessarily the case that they can't afford it, they just choose to not get it. Which if they did, would actually drive down the costs for everyone ultimately, which is why the current law has a requirement for everyone to get healthcare.

Now of course that is not the case of everyone that currently does not have health care, but it is a sizable population. Most of the truly poor are actually covered by government programs already (Medicad?).


Irontruth wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Yes war is a tool and an extention of politics. In the case of Iraq the U.S. took out Saddam who threatened his neighbors, tortured and killed his own citizens, used chemical weapons against his Kurdish population and invaded Kuwait. His regime was evil. He was a destabalizing force in the region and to our (U.S.) national interests. The world is a better place now that he is gone and Iraq is on the road in joining the world as a free society. It also sends a strong message to other tyrants as well.

You mean he used the chemical agents that the US Commerce Department allowed to be sold to him?

But of course, we only supported him because Iran was a country we disliked so much.

Not that Iran has any reason to fear US meddling in their affairs

So, because we helped prop up a dictator in Iran, they eventually became an "unstable" country. To counteract this, we helped prop up a dictator in Iraq. Then he became a threat.

Where exactly is the American exceptionalism in all this?

And all of those things that we had a sudden need to overthrow him for, he'd been doing for decades or had done at least a decade ago. Including when he was still a useful tool for the US.


thejeff wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Smarnil le couard wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Just so people don't think I only hate America.

Funny read... :)

Just to make everybody at ease, and to get back on the thread original topic, let me remind you that France too used torture in a recent past, during the Algeria war.

The army wanted to stop bombings and used electrocution on FLN fellaghas and suspects as a mean of getting intelligence.

As it should be, this sad fact is taught in all (high) schools during history classes, along with the end result : 1) the local population, initially not very fond of bomb attacks, quickly shifted allegiance in very few years. Arresting and torturing one's neighbour makes wonders to foster unrest and hate ; 2) absolutely no bombings were prevented, the intelligence gained through torture being of very dubious value (as in, the suspect usually ended telling whatever the guy sitting by the switch wanted to hear).

We made that particular mistake, once. It's only sadder that you do it again. Your War on Terror is the best recuitment poster that Al Qaeda could have dreamed of, and all the Guantanamo and secret prisons system is for naught : you could have obtained the same results while upholding democratic principles.

You know, after 9/11, the whole world was behind you, supported you during the Afghanistan invasion, including the arab world. Then Bush Jr unilaterally invaded Iraq for dubious motives, opened Gitmo, and allowed torture, squandering in one stroke most of the US diplomatic image. I wonder who made more damage to the USA...

I don't think the whole world as behind us after 9-11. I'm assuming you believe that America had it coming?
The war on terror is not a correct phrase. It should be named War on radical Islam. Until the US gets that straight and is honest with the American public we don't stand a chance in winning. This is an unconventional war were the Jihadist use American

...

Sorry about that. Dough!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
stuff that's too far down in the quotation to appear when I press "reply"

Iraq is going to be such a better place with its infrastructure destroyed, its staggering rate of birth defects, its population whipped up into sectarian mobs and, oh yeah, ONE MILLION LESS PEOPLE.

America, F#!~ Yeah!


Stuffy Grammarian wrote:
You might also occasionally check your spelling, capitalization, and grammar as well. If you're a conservative American, as you claim, then I'd think you'd be all in favor of requiring proficiency in English.

That was a bit of a low blow. Assuming that my errors on that post are an indicator of my English skills.

So was there something in your post that I missed relavent to the conversion? Or did you just want to make fun and put me down?
Also, ALL jAmericans want everyone to be proficient in English (shaking my head)


Irontruth wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Yes war is a tool and an extention of politics. In the case of Iraq the U.S. took out Saddam who threatened his neighbors, tortured and killed his own citizens, used chemical weapons against his Kurdish population and invaded Kuwait. His regime was evil. He was a destabalizing force in the region and to our (U.S.) national interests. The world is a better place now that he is gone and Iraq is on the road in joining the world as a free society. It also sends a strong message to other tyrants as well.

You mean he used the chemical agents that the US Commerce Department allowed to be sold to him?

But of course, we only supported him because Iran was a country we disliked so much.

Not that Iran has any reason to fear US meddling in their affairs

So, because we helped prop up a dictator in Iran, they eventually became an "unstable" country. To counteract this, we helped prop up a dictator in Iraq. Then he became a threat.

Where exactly is the American exceptionalism in all this?

Yes the same country that held US hostages, chants death to America and wants to wipe Israel from the map. Supporting terrorist organizations, Irans possible involvement in the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing,ect,ect.

Yes Saddam was our guy in that neighborhood of gangsters. Cold war politics at its best!


Kthulhu-

Need I point out that in that same 10,000 years, white men in Europe also failed to get to outer space? As did any color of man living on any continent.[/quote wrote:

Only mainstream archaeology and history says so. Ancient history tends to suggest that perhaps Chinese, Indian, Mayan and perhaps others had space flight.
[url=http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html


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Aretas wrote:


Yes the same country that held US hostages, chants death to America and wants to wipe Israel from the map. Supporting terrorist organizations, Irans possible involvement in the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing,ect,ect.
Yes Saddam was our guy in that neighborhood of gangsters. Cold war politics at its best!

I do not now if you like the cold war politics or not.

As I see things The "tactic" that US supported in that part of the worl were not just Imperialist but extremely ineficient an actually against The us interest.

First, US help to overtrow a democratic elected regime in iran, just because the oil bussines (imperialistic act)

Second, Us support the shah, who was a Tyrant (it is evident that the US goverment of that time did not care of the right and welfare of iranian people, so lets count this as a imperialist act).

third, the inevitalby happens, people from iran that hated the Sha revealed agains his dictadure, the US should have supported that revolution, not only because it was fair, but because The US had the chance to obtain a democratic ally in the middle east.

but no, they let the ayatolah stole the revolution and they hate the US (so lets count this as a inificient act)

Four, US goverment support hussein and give him chemical weapons (an antihumanitary act). But not only iraq did not destroy the ayatolllah but husseins becames an enemy of the US (so it was an ineficient act)

I do not know if someone can be proud of that chain of craziness, not only your presidenst waste the money of the taxes in antihumanitary actions but they were extremely ineficient making enemies in every step, .

It is ashame because the US have the potential to be a light of justice an welfate to the rest of the world, but every good action that the US people do get destroyd by an action that your goverment do.


Need I point out that in that same 10,000 years, white men in Europe also failed to get to outer space? As did any color of man living on any continent.

[url=http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html

Only mainstream archaeology and history says so. Ancient history tends to suggest that perhaps Chinese, Indian, Mayan and perhaps others had space flight.


Kthulhu-

Need I point out that in that same 10,000 years, white men in Europe also failed to get to outer space? As did any color of man living on any continent.[/quote wrote:

Only mainstream archaeology and history says so. Ancient history tends to suggest that perhaps Chinese, Indian, Mayan and perhaps others had space flight.


[url=http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html


Kthulhu-Need I point out that in that same 10,000 years, white men in Europe also failed to get to outer space? As did any color of man living on any continent.

Only mainstream archaeology and history says so. Ancient history tends to suggest that perhaps Chinese, Indian, Mayan and perhaps others had space flight.

http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html
[url=http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html[/url]


I think your link is broken.

And, hee hee! My hetero life partner has been raving about this stuff for the past six years now! He's always going on about The Book of Enoch, and how Jared Diamond is wrong because he doesn't take into account the fact that Gilgamesh was an alien, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

He tried to make me read some books by Erich von Daniken, but I couldn't take it!


Shizvestus wrote:

Daniken

Ancient Astronauts


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:


He tried to make me read some books by Erich von Daniken, but I couldn't take it!

Do not waste your time, when i was preparing a campaing of NWoD i read about this Daniken and ancient astronauts, is a facinating fiction but as a physic I can tell you that is laughable.


Thank you, but I came to that conclusion after reading the preface.

EDIT: And from listening to him rant about it for half a decade!


I find the stuff fascinating. Von Daniken and Velikovsky and all that. Along with Illuminati and Templar conspiracies and that kind of thing.

It's all nonsense, of course, but it's great fun.
I'd love to live in a world where all the weird out of place stuff was true and fit together into a grand pattern. Luckily we have fiction and RPGs for that.


Gilgamesh was an alien!

It certainly is fun, but I don't need to read it when I've got an inebriated anarcho-syndicalist in the room who can weave together seven different, mutually contradictory theories in one conversation!

It is amusing, because he has a lot of residual Christianity in his thinking from his upbringing. So we argued about that for years, and then one day, he's all like "Jesus was an alien!" and I'm just like [facepalm].


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Gilgamesh was an alien!

It certainly is fun, but I don't need to read it when I've got an inebriated anarcho-syndicalist in the room who can weave together seven different, mutually contradictory theories in one conversation!

It is amusing, because he has a lot of residual Christianity in his thinking from his upbringing. So we argued about that for years, and then one day, he's all like "Jesus was an alien!" and I'm just like [facepalm].

More importantly, Jesus was an anarcho-syndicalist alien.

You can tell your friend to read this book : http://books.google.ca/books/about/Saint_Paul.html?id=kUhf1TT1vw8C&redi r_esc=y

It's an anarcho-syndicalist interpretation of St-Paul. Yeah, I know.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Aretas wrote:
stuff that's too far down in the quotation to appear when I press "reply"

Iraq is going to be such a better place with its infrastructure destroyed, its staggering rate of birth defects, its population whipped up into sectarian mobs and, oh yeah, ONE MILLION LESS PEOPLE.

America, F&#& Yeah!

How DARE you bring up the effects of depleted uranium! That just makes Americans feel bad, and messes up tons of babies, as well as adults, for centuries to come...

Surely you've heard that nuclear leftovers have no proven effect on anyone!


Aretas wrote:


Yes the same country that held US hostages, chants death to America and wants to wipe Israel from the map. Supporting terrorist organizations, Irans possible involvement in the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing,ect,ect.
Yes Saddam was our guy in that neighborhood of gangsters. Cold war politics at its best!

Which of these things was more likely to have contributed to the other:

1979 Hostage Crisis

1953 Coup

Are you implying that Eisenhower could see into the future and was trying to establish control over Iran in an attempt to prevent the hostage crisis?

It feels to me like your brand of "exceptionalism" means that there are no consequences to our actions. That those people over there would hate us regardless of what has happened in the past.

Has Iran acted like jerks? Yes.
We have also acted like jerks.

I bet if we hadn't supported a coup in their country, then armed their neighbor with chemical weapons, they wouldn't be nearly so angry at us right now. How would you feel about Canada if they had assassinated one of our presidents and then gave Mexico material support as they did cross border raids into Texas? Would you turn the other cheek, or demand retribution?

Remember, this isn't blaming America. This is being realistic. If we kill someone, their family is probably going to be pissed. If your solution is then to just kill the whole family, then I would say you hate freedom, because that is a dictators answer to the problem.


CunningMongoose wrote:
You can tell your friend to read this book : It's an anarcho-syndicalist interpretation of St-Paul. Yeah, I know.

Thank you, but I am never going to tell him about this book. He's hard enough to converse with as it is!


Irontruth wrote:
Aretas wrote:


Yes the same country that held US hostages, chants death to America and wants to wipe Israel from the map. Supporting terrorist organizations, Irans possible involvement in the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing,ect,ect.
Yes Saddam was our guy in that neighborhood of gangsters. Cold war politics at its best!

Which of these things was more likely to have contributed to the other:

1979 Hostage Crisis

1953 Coup

Are you implying that Eisenhower could see into the future and was trying to establish control over Iran in an attempt to prevent the hostage crisis?

It feels to me like your brand of "exceptionalism" means that there are no consequences to our actions. That those people over there would hate us regardless of what has happened in the past.

Has Iran acted like jerks? Yes.
We have also acted like jerks.

I bet if we hadn't supported a coup in their country, then armed their neighbor with chemical weapons, they wouldn't be nearly so angry at us right now. How would you feel about Canada if they had assassinated one of our presidents and then gave Mexico material support as they did cross border raids into Texas? Would you turn the other cheek, or demand retribution?

Remember, this isn't blaming America. This is being realistic. If we kill someone, their family is probably going to be pissed. If your solution is then to just kill the whole family, then I would say you hate freedom, because that is a dictators answer to the problem.

American exceptionalism is the fact that people from all over the world can come here, work hard, have the freedom to do what they wish. There are few places on Earth that offer people the same chances for advancement, the U.S. is number one on that list.

Regarding American foreign policy. I'm a "realpolitik" in a way. I understand the United States are not a bunch of boy scouts.
American foreign policy is engineered for our national interests. You must admit though that America is a great force of good all over the world as well.

I think the analogy of Mexico/Canada is an over-simplification. My opinion, nothing against you my friend.

The family analogy is a reasonable one but I must believe that we can and have gotten past that in many situations, why not with Iranian/U.S. reltions?
Success stories: Post WW2 US/Japanese relations. Post WW2 German/French & German/English. Greek/Turkish relations. We have many examples of people or nations reconciling and moving forward.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Aretas wrote:
stuff that's too far down in the quotation to appear when I press "reply"

Iraq is going to be such a better place with its infrastructure destroyed, its staggering rate of birth defects, its population whipped up into sectarian mobs and, oh yeah, ONE MILLION LESS PEOPLE.

America, F&#& Yeah!

How DARE you bring up the effects of depleted uranium! That just makes Americans feel bad, and messes up tons of babies, as well as adults, for centuries to come...

Surely you've heard that nuclear leftovers have no proven effect on anyone!

Sorry sir but I'm really missing your point. Is it depleted uranium tipped missles bad??? War is hell isn't it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Which of these things was more likely to have contributed to the other:

1979 Hostage Crisis

1953 Coup

Are you implying that Eisenhower could see into the future and was trying to establish control over Iran in an attempt to prevent the hostage crisis?

It feels to me like your brand of "exceptionalism" means that there are no consequences to our actions. That those people over there would hate us regardless of what has happened in the past.

Has Iran acted like jerks? Yes.
We have also acted like jerks.

I bet if we hadn't supported a coup in their country, then armed their neighbor with chemical weapons, they wouldn't be nearly so angry at us right now. How would you feel about Canada if they had assassinated one of our presidents and then gave Mexico material support as they did cross border raids into Texas? Would you turn the other cheek, or demand retribution?

Remember, this isn't blaming America. This is being realistic. If we kill someone, their family is probably going to be pissed. If your solution is then to just kill the whole family, then I would say you hate freedom, because that is a dictators answer to the problem.

American exceptionalism is the fact that people from all over the world can come here, work hard, have the freedom to do what they wish. There are few places on Earth that offer people the same chances for advancement, the U.S. is number one on that list.

Okay, let's resume our discussion about US exceptionalism. So, according to you, a second defining criteria would be that "people from all over the world can come (t)here, work hard, have the freedom to do what they wish".

As in Canada. As in most if not all European Union countries. As in Australia. Again, where is the qualitative difference ?

Aretas wrote:

Regarding American foreign policy. I'm a "realpolitik" in a way. I understand the United States are not a bunch of boy scouts.

American foreign policy is engineered for our national interests. You must admit though that America is a great force of good all over the world as well.

There is a quite a margin between being a naive boyscout (which would be a bad thing for any nation) and the US government behaviour in the recent past. Again, you can fight against terrorism without resorting to extralegal and/or terrorist tactics (that is kidnappings, arbitrary detention, murders). Other countries have coped with terrorism for decades now, without overreacting in such a way.

Of course the USA can do good too. But a good never does erase an evil, not in the minds of those who suffered from it. Maybe you don't know (or don't want to know) that your country did some shameful things in the past, distant or recent (again, as mine did, you are not alone in this). That doesn't mean that the ones who got on the receiving end suffer from the same lapse of memory, and you always should take history into account to understand the current world.

The Iranian government isn't fond of the USA (the population is another story), that's a given. Do you really take for granted the "they hate our freedoms" explanation ? It's a little... short in the reflexion department.

Irontruth has nailed it down exactly : past actions do have consequences, even if you strive to ignore them. Looks like you can be a true blood american patriot (he did service) without being completely blind to the little stains and blemishes on the flag, which in my book is a very good thing (critical mind and all that). Again, people or nations who believe to be perfect and above reproach have no incentive to improve themselves : complacency is the first step into decadency.

PS : I won't answer to your request for a private discussion, Aretas, as I don't see the point. There is nothing I would say to you that couldn't be stated above the board.


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Aretas wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Aretas wrote:
stuff that's too far down in the quotation to appear when I press "reply"

Iraq is going to be such a better place with its infrastructure destroyed, its staggering rate of birth defects, its population whipped up into sectarian mobs and, oh yeah, ONE MILLION LESS PEOPLE.

America, F&#& Yeah!

How DARE you bring up the effects of depleted uranium! That just makes Americans feel bad, and messes up tons of babies, as well as adults, for centuries to come...

Surely you've heard that nuclear leftovers have no proven effect on anyone!

Sorry sir but I'm really missing your point. Is it depleted uranium tipped missles bad??? War is hell isn't it.

There, it's difficult to say if you are odiously cynical, or just very ignorant. Either way, your comment doesn't honor you.

Another common sense grievance about the Iraq war : it drained away from Afghanistan the financial ressources that could have been used to truly win this war (by a hearts and minds campaign), instead of turning it into a decade long dive into disaster. More than half of the territory is currently held by the Talibans, supported by Pakistan. The Karzai regime will crumble as soon as we get out.


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Aretas wrote:
There are few places on Earth that offer people the same chances for advancement, the U.S. is number one on that list.

You may want to make your facts straight. Social mobility in the USA is very poor. Here is the OECD (Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development) report..

Here is an analysis of the document from the Huff Post.

Here is a Wikipedia article, expanding with other sources.

In case you have doubt about the OECD, it's a well respected institution, and not a left-wing think tank. Here is their mission statement. As you can see from the bolded text, they certainly are not against capitalism, and share a lot of your concerns about terrorists.

OECD mission statement wrote:

The mission of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) is to promote policies that will improve the economic and social well-being of people around the world.

The OECD provides a forum in which governments can work together to share experiences and seek solutions to common problems. We work with governments to understand what drives economic, social and environmental change. We measure productivity and global flows of trade and investment. We analyse and compare data to predict future trends. We set international standards on a wide range of things, from agriculture and tax to the safety of chemicals.

We look, too, at issues that directly affect the lives of ordinary people, like how much they pay in taxes and social security, and how much leisure time they can take. We compare how different countries’ school systems are readying their young people for modern life, and how different countries’ pension systems will look after their citizens in old age.

Drawing on facts and real-life experience, we recommend policies designed to make the lives of ordinary people better. We work with business, through the Business and Industry Advisory Committee to the OECD, and with labour, through the Trade Union Advisory Committee. We have active contacts as well with other civil society organisations. The common thread of our work is a shared commitment to market economies backed by democratic institutions and focused on the wellbeing of all citizens. Along the way, we also set out to make life harder for the terrorists, tax dodgers, crooked businessmen and others whose actions undermine a fair and open society.


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American Exceptionalism is nothing more than plain old nationalism with a fancy name.

I'm grateful I was born here, just as I would be grateful if I were born in Canada. Or Norway. Or Germany. The U.S. is a fine place to live that gets a lot of things right, but we're all better served if we look at it with our eyes open. Only by seeing the truth, warts and all, can we hope to improve.


CunningMongoose wrote:
In case you have doubt about the OECD, it's a well respected institution, and not a left-wing think tank. Here is their mission statement. As you can see from the bolded text, they certainly are not against capitalism, and share a lot of your concerns about terrorists.

OECD is something like a supranational think tank, whose members are (almost only first world) governments. USA and Canada are among the founding members.

Of course, it could also be a cleverly masked marxist organization with a hidden agenda, but at least it's a US funded one. Must count for something. :)


bugleyman wrote:

American Exceptionalism is nothing more than plain old nationalism with a fancy name.

I'm grateful I was born here, just as I would be grateful if I were born in Canada. Or Norway. Or Germany. The U.S. is a fine place to live that gets a lot of things right, but we're all better served if we look at it with our eyes open. Only by seeing the truth, warts and all, can we hope to improve.

EXACTLY my point. If you weren't on the other side of the Atlantic (and got such an icon), I would french kiss you.


Smarnil le couard wrote:
EXACTLY my point. If you weren't on the other side of the Atlantic (and got such an icon), I would french kiss you.

My tongue is a foot long. Don't knock it til you try it! :P


Smarnil le couard wrote:
If you weren't on the other side of the Atlantic (and got such an icon), I would french kiss you.

Dude -- not even I'm THAT drunk!


Samnil, you keep talking like this, I'll have to start eating freedom fries again...

JUST KIDDING!!


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Is there any chance that those critiquing the history we've been presenting as "revisionist" could point out in what way, shape, or form the "revisionist" history is even REMOTELY incorrect?

This idea that America should act like it used to and be "the good guy" like it used to only works if WW2 was the only thing America ever did. The US has rarely if ever lived up to our stated ideals and the glowing sainthood that people ascribe to it.

People are confused and angry about why the us isn't acting the way it did in their history class. The answer is simply that the history class is wrong. People keep trying to send the us back to a time that simply didn't exist. If you want the US to be a beacon of hope, freedom, and honesty you can't go back to the past. That vision can only be brought into reality in the future.


Aretas wrote:


Success stories:
Post WW2 US/Japanese relations.
Post WW2 German/French & German/English.
Greek/Turkish relations.
We have many examples of people or nations reconciling and moving forward.

Actually i think you left out a much better example : german- american relations...

As for the others, Japan was nuked into submission. While they mostly understand by now that they had it coming, not only by not declaring war in time, they have been forced to democracy, their heart doesn´t seem to be in it, i remember pretty strong anti-japanese sentiments in the 80`s and while the japanese may have forgiven , they have yet to forget the Black Ships of Commodore Perry, let alone the nukes.
Their culture is so vastly different, that i wouldn´t assume " they´d piss on you if you were burning."

Germans and French have been killing each other for centuries. We did have it coming, though some argue that the harsh conditions of the Versaille contract after WW I provoked this, it doesn´t matter, because we know, that we provoked this in turn 1871, by proclaiming the Unified German Empire in Versaille. Pure idiocy.

The Brits and the Germans are roughly cut from the same cloth, share roots, have long been rivals and allies and there was always at least some kind of grudging respect. ( Mates, correct me if i´m wrong.)

Both countries had serious second thoughts at the possibilty of a unified Germany, nearly 50 years after the war.

As for Greeks and Turks: they still hate each others guts.


Woher aus Deutschland kommen Sie, RedPorcupine?


Das ist etwas schwierig. Ich bin im " Großen Apfel" geboren;).
Habe lange in der kleinen Stadt Bonn gewohnt und dann in Berlin.
Mein Vater wurde in Dresden (´42) geboren und ist augewachsen als " Preuße" in Fischbach-Au bei Aurach bei München.


RedPorcupine wrote:
Ich bin im " Großen Apfel" geboren;).

Ha! Ich bin in Würzburg geboren, aber jetzt in Texas leben.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Ha! Ich bin in Würzburg geboren, aber jetzt aus Texas leben.

Einfach schön:).


Kleine Welt!

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