Fascism Alive and Well in 2012


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Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Xabulba wrote:

The "dangerous and radical" La Raza website.

[heavy snark]We definitely don't want kids being taught the anti-American ideals espoused by this group.
Ideals like equality between the races, Hispanic and Native American empowerment and history told from a Hispanic and Native American view point.[/heavy snark]

Yes, because a group called 'The Race' is such an open and tolerant name. Why if the KKK just called themselves 'The Race' they'd seem much lighter and fuzzier.

Let's look at their afilliate, MEChA whose members The Race has endorced for Mayor, and allowed to address the Keynote convention.

"For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada." Why that's positively heartwarming! cite
" Nearly every racial and ethnic group has some shady characters and positions in its past and some unbalanced individuals today claiming racial superiority and demanding separatism. But this is coming straight from the official MEChA sites at Georgetown University, the University of Texas, UCLA, University of Michigan, University of Colorado, University of Oregon, and many other colleges and universities around the country."


Steven Tindall wrote:
Laying the blame for genocide on him is really rather unfair.

How so? Sure, the Spanish really brought on the genocide a little later, but it was good ol' Cristobal who got the ball rolling.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
thejeff wrote:

So we should stop teaching about the Klan, the Nazis, etc too?

Don't mention slavery or Jim Crow. Better not to let the kids know there were people living in the Americas before Columbus found it.

After all, they didn't do a lot with the place. That makes it okay that we slaughtered them with diseases and with guns. I suppose the Africans (SubSaharan anyway, we'll leave an out for Egypt) weren't really doing anything useful either, so why shouldn't Europeans take over Africa as a colonial empire and ship millions here as slaves.

If "They didn't do a whole lot with the place" is your attitude, I can see why you might think teaching the truth is "promoting racial hatred towards Caucasians".

Whats the other proposal? Have everybody feel horrible about stuff that took place hundreds of years ago? Have every modern day Egyptian pay reparations to the state of Israel for the well documented case of slavery thousands of years ago or what about the horrible slaughter of this empire on that group. The list goes on and on throughout the history of the planet. Empires rise and fall but the world keeps on turning.

How could our forefathers, who were no wiser than anyone else of their time have know what was right and better unless they made the mistakes and learned from them and then taught their children and grandchildren what they had learned. It amazes me how harshly we judge the founders of our nation with such harshness based on a fairly recent doctrine of political correctness where everybody's opinion matters except the ones that disagree with the correct ideas.

As far as the slavery bit, everybody was buying at that time and if you'll look back you'll see that the Africans were selling their defeated foes into slavery. The institution was their long before America and ran it's course when it was realized just how horrid it was.

Nobody is saying vilify them (though the founding fathers certainly weren't what their reputation suggests), and nobody is saying that reparations need to be paid. We're saying that high school children need to learn about the past, not ignore it.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.

Well, it is racist. There are a lot of ways to say that post colonial life is technologically superior to pre colonial life without saying "Oh, they didn't do a whole lot with the place". It sounds like you think the natives deserved what they got.


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Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.

The main facts are he was trying to find a better route to india for more wealth. He hit some place that had been forgotten after the vikings had been driven out. He wasn't going back empty handed so he took what he could as proof that he should be given more money. Heck from what the historians are saying now he didn't even hit north America proper he hit Cuba if that's to be believed.

Laying the blame for genocide on him is really rather unfair. He was an explorer in a time when people were desperate to know more about the world around them rather than accepting it was flat. Any other motives ascribed to the man for either good or ill shouldn't be.

You need to go back and relearn your history. Columbus was not looking for India (which was called Hindustan in those days), he was looking for the East Indies, an island chain. He first landed in the Bahamas, then went to Cuba and Hispaniola. Let's not forget that part of what he took back was kidnapped natives, most of whom died during the voyage to Europe. He also recommended using natives as slaves. During his second voyage, he demanded that adult male Tainos bring him gold or cotton. If they didn't, he cut their hands off. Your assertion that blaming him in part for genocide is unfair is completely false. He most certainly does bare blame, seeing as how he was an active participant.

You might be right. I should go back and brush up on the great explorers. I will be the first to admit that last time I thought about Magellan, Ponce DE Leon or Columbus or any of the others was when I was in middle school or earlier well over 30+ years ago.

The funny thing is the history books keep changing as we learn more and more. I was wrong about India I meant the East Indies I just knew that that was how the Indians got their name.

Again slavery was an institution at the time, what else was he going to do with obviously "savage" peoples. he was no better or worse than the other men of his time so for him to be expected to be this great enlightened political correct demi-god of social justice is very unfair.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.

The main facts are he was trying to find a better route to india for more wealth. He hit some place that had been forgotten after the vikings had been driven out. He wasn't going back empty handed so he took what he could as proof that he should be given more money. Heck from what the historians are saying now he didn't even hit north America proper he hit Cuba if that's to be believed.

Laying the blame for genocide on him is really rather unfair. He was an explorer in a time when people were desperate to know more about the world around them rather than accepting it was flat. Any other motives ascribed to the man for either good or ill shouldn't be.

Apparently you should learn a little more about Columbus since you're just repeating the sanitized version.

He did never reach the mainland, which we've known all along. Educated people generally knew the world was round.
As for genocide: He wasn't just an explorer. He was governor of the Indies until he was arrested and hauled back to Spain. Read up on the Taino people. On the early history of Hispaniola. The natives were used as gold miners and died in droves. They were essentially gone in 50 years.
Not all under Colombus's rule, but he set the pattern.


Hee hee!

I see you didn't stay away from the political threads too long, Montana.

Hee hee!


Steven, just because someone robs a bank at 1230 in the afternoon does not mean that a second thief who decides to rob the same bank at 223 that same afternoon is absolved of all guilt. Both are crimes and should be viewed as such.

Also, your views on slavery ignore the brisk illegal trade that was done in later years when venture folk would attempt to cut out the middleman and just kidnap whatever Africans they found on their excursions to that continent.


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Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.
Well, it is racist. There are a lot of ways to say that post colonial life is technologically superior to pre colonial life without saying "Oh, they didn't do a whole lot with the place". It sounds like you think the natives deserved what they got.

Ok point taken.

As far as the natives they really didn't deserve what they got but we can't undo it other than make sure the lesson is learned for all time and never repeated.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.
Well, it is racist. There are a lot of ways to say that post colonial life is technologically superior to pre colonial life without saying "Oh, they didn't do a whole lot with the place". It sounds like you think the natives deserved what they got.

Ok point taken.

As far as the natives they really didn't deserve what they got but we can't undo it other than make sure the lesson is learned for all time and never repeated.

But that's the point: If we hide the bad stuff and make sure most people are only taught the sanitized version, how do we learn that lesson?


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.

In most of the US, you do need to go to college to get facts. Pissed off parents running to the school board have way more influence than the academy.


Burgomeister of Troll Town wrote:

Hee hee!

I see you didn't stay away from the political threads too long, Montana.

Hee hee!

I don't really see it as political. I see it as an educational issue. It's stuff like Occupy Wall Street, gun control, and the elections that I refuse to touch.


thejeff wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.
Well, it is racist. There are a lot of ways to say that post colonial life is technologically superior to pre colonial life without saying "Oh, they didn't do a whole lot with the place". It sounds like you think the natives deserved what they got.

Ok point taken.

As far as the natives they really didn't deserve what they got but we can't undo it other than make sure the lesson is learned for all time and never repeated.

But that's the point: If we hide the bad stuff and make sure most people are only taught the sanitized version, how do we learn that lesson?

My point exactly.


Freehold DM wrote:

Steven, just because someone robs a bank at 1230 in the afternoon does not mean that a second thief who decides to rob the same bank at 223 that same afternoon is absolved of all guilt. Both are crimes and should be viewed as such.

Also, your views on slavery ignore the brisk illegal trade that was done in later years when venture folk would attempt to cut out the middleman and just kidnap whatever Africans they found on their excursions to that continent.

The illegal trade has nothing to do with the fact that slavery was condemned and no new slaves were allowed to be brought in after a certain time. The existing population was the only stock that could be drawn from.

Just like the slave trade today or human trafficking still exists but we can only do what we can do. we all know it's illegal but we also know it goes on, as we find it we eliminate it but I don't see any special task force devoted to raiding massage parlors and strip clubs.
Illegal activities are not part of an equation.


Samnell wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Teaching history =/= teaching hate. Sanitizing history is the hallmark of certain governmental systems I will not name. You shouldn't need to go to college to be taught the facts about Columbus, etc.
In most of the US, you do need to go to college to get facts. Pissed off parents running to the school board have way more influence than the academy.

LOL You make a very good point.


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Montana MacAilbert wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.
Well, it is racist. There are a lot of ways to say that post colonial life is technologically superior to pre colonial life without saying "Oh, they didn't do a whole lot with the place". It sounds like you think the natives deserved what they got.

Ok point taken.

As far as the natives they really didn't deserve what they got but we can't undo it other than make sure the lesson is learned for all time and never repeated.

But that's the point: If we hide the bad stuff and make sure most people are only taught the sanitized version, how do we learn that lesson?

My point exactly.

I guess the point I am trying to make is educate but do not perpetuate the cycle of hatred. Learning about slavery and it's evils is one thing that everybody should know. Listening to a radical agenda to promote violence as revenge or whatever is not where it needs to be taken.

That's what the school board decided to do, stop it before it became to far afield that it went from education to indoctrination. The kids are still being educated about all the mistakes we as Americans have made but to focus on them to the level is a little extreme and possibly anti-American.


Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

It wasn't meant to be.

I was stating what I believe to be facts that are in evidence concerning the use of land and resources based on evidence presented. No racism was meant.
Well, it is racist. There are a lot of ways to say that post colonial life is technologically superior to pre colonial life without saying "Oh, they didn't do a whole lot with the place". It sounds like you think the natives deserved what they got.

Ok point taken.

As far as the natives they really didn't deserve what they got but we can't undo it other than make sure the lesson is learned for all time and never repeated.

But that's the point: If we hide the bad stuff and make sure most people are only taught the sanitized version, how do we learn that lesson?

My point exactly.

I guess the point I am trying to make is educate but do not perpetuate the cycle of hatred. Learning about slavery and it's evils is one thing that everybody should know. Listening to a radical agenda to promote violence as revenge or whatever is not where it needs to be taken.

That's what the school board decided to do, stop it before it became to far afield that it went from education to indoctrination. The kids are still being educated about all the mistakes we as Americans have made but to focus on them to the level is a little extreme and possibly anti-American.

Banning ethnic studies wasn't the solution to that problem, changing them to be better was. Now the schools aren't allowed to teach about oppression, and that was a very bad decision to make.


"Banning ethnic studies wasn't the solution to that problem, changing them to be better was. Now the schools aren't allowed to teach about oppression, and that was a very bad decision to make."

You and I agree on that point. banning them and taking the books outta the kids hands was uncalled for and extreme.

Now we just have to wait and see what Arizona decides to do. I'm almost positive that after this hubbub the studies will be back in some form but unlike it's predecessor it will be more closely monitored to make sure no ethnicity is made to feel marginalized.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
It amazes me how harshly we judge the founders of our nation with such harshness based on a fairly recent doctrine of political correctness where everybody's opinion matters except the ones that disagree with the correct ideas.

[edit. Quote fixed. Sorry. the first quote REALLY doesn't show up on my screen]

They deserve it. Unfortunately the only judgement we can place on it is our scorn. They knew full well that slavery was wrong. They angrily complained about the injustice of taxation without representation as slavery. More directly jefferson said he knew it was wrong, but that he couldn't live without them.


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Could you please fix that quote, BNW? I'm not the one who said that, and I don't agree with it. I'm with you on this issue.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
It amazes me how harshly we judge the founders of our nation with such harshness based on a fairly recent doctrine of political correctness where everybody's opinion matters except the ones that disagree with the correct ideas.

They deserve it. Unfortunately the only judgement we can place on it is our scorn. They knew full well that slavery was wrong. They angrily complained about the injustice of taxation without representation as slavery. More directly jefferson said he knew it was wrong, but that he couldn't live without them.

I think we will have to politely disagree on that point BNW. Until something better came along like machines then slaves were the foundation of their society.

I can imagine in 200+ years the scorn that will be placed on us for knowingly polluting our planet with automobiles because they were the only thing we had to advance our society.


Steven Tindall wrote:

I guess the point I am trying to make is educate but do not perpetuate the cycle of hatred. Learning about slavery and it's evils is one thing that everybody should know. Listening to a radical agenda to promote violence as revenge or whatever is not where it needs to be taken.

That's what the school board decided to do, stop it before it became to far afield that it went from education to indoctrination. The kids are still being educated about all the mistakes we as Americans have made but to focus on them to the level is a little extreme and possibly anti-American.

I agree with you here in theory, but I have serious doubts that the actual books and classes being banned were actually "a radical agenda to promote violence as revenge".


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Steven Tindall wrote:


That's what the school board decided to do, stop it before it became to far afield that it went from education to indoctrination. The kids are still being educated about all the mistakes we as Americans have made but to focus on them to the level is a little extreme and possibly anti-American.

Anti-American?

How so? My ancestors were slaves in this country and in the West Indies.

They were freed here after and unpopular war and it could be argued that things got MARGINALLY better for them here.

Segregation existed from the end of the Civil War (1865?) to right about the early mid sixties in this country. This wasn't something that happened in someone ELSES lifetime. I have relatives who lived through Segregation and remember it clearly.

I have a son aged 10. As an American, I dont want him to learn ONLY about all of the cool things that white people did. Because in those mainstream history lessons that everyone seems to be a huge fan of, black, brown and yellow people apparently did NOTHING to make this country and are just leeching off of the super-capable white d00ds.

He needs to understand why there are people who are going to automatically think he's less than because of the color of his skin. He needs to understand that he has value and that there are other men and women who look like him who HAVE contributed something worthwhile to this country other than entertainment. And he needs to know how great the odds that were against them.

Anti-American? I think teaching young people of color (especially the males) about the non-whitewashed version of American history is as about as American as you can get.


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Steven Tindall wrote:

I think we will have to politely disagree on that point BNW. Until something better came along like machines then slaves were the foundation of their society.
I can imagine in 200+ years the scorn that will be placed on us for knowingly polluting our planet with automobiles because they were the only thing we had to advance our society.

There's a huge difference. It doesn't take a saint to realize "Huh, you know, i really wouldn't like to be forced to get up at 5 am, beaten, whipped, spat on, and then shot if i tried to seek employment elsewhere.. and i bet that other person there doesn't either"

Crops can be grown by free people. Nails can be made by free people, it just isn't as profitable for the person in charge. That's what we're talking about here, maximum profit for a few people at the top vs opposed to a decent living.

There was another way. they had another way. Farm your own crops or pay someone to do it for you. Its not that hard. . They chose not to because they didn't want to, not because there was no other alternative.


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Steven Tindall wrote:
I guess the point I am trying to make is educate but do not perpetuate the cycle of hatred. Learning about slavery and it's evils is one thing that everybody should know. Listening to a radical agenda to promote violence as revenge or whatever is not where it needs to be taken.

First, the school board reacted to pressure from the Sate, and did so in order to be able to get funding. So, the school board made a bad decision, but the decision was first made by the state to cut funding to the program.

And I have serious doubts about the competency of state officials to decide what content is in fact indoctrination when they think still creationism is correct science :

http://www.agiweb.org/gap/evolution/AZ.html

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

Since I live in Tucson, I thought I'd chip in...

Equating the court's decision against Tucson's Hispanic Studies program to Fascism is a gross misrepresentation of what has been going on in Tucson.

To quote a local newspaper:
The ethnic studies law, which took effect Jan.1, 2011, bans classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, encourage resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed solely for students of a certain ethnic background and advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of students as individuals.

Instead of that, Tucson had teachers claiming that...

* The Southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. "Aztlan" (the Southwest)is "occupied territory" that should be reclaimed by Mexico.
* Mexico's people suffer from poverty and injustice because the US steals their resources.
* Mexicans are right to illegally cross the border for work, education, or medical care: It's a means of addressing historical injustices.
* America is a land of vast racial injustice, so additional steps are needed to ensure Hispanics get a fair deal in the future.
* Suitable heroes for Hispanics include such men as Pancho Villa, Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro.

When interviewed, the program's teachers denied teaching any of these ideas, but students from their classes have appeared in local media (radio and TV) demonstrating otherwise. The books used in class have endorsed all the ideas expressed above.

They had a year to give their curriculum a wider focus, but failed to do so. They instead chose to fight the state over the issue.


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Steven Tindall wrote:


I think we will have to politely disagree on that point BNW. Until something better came along like machines then slaves were the foundation of their society.
I can imagine in 200+ years the scorn that will be placed on us for knowingly polluting our planet with automobiles because they were the only thing we had to advance our society.

1)automobiles are note ncesary, at least not the ones that depend on oil. the damage that we make to the nature is not acceptable nor justifiable, specially with all the techcnological advances.

2) is interesting to see people defending salvery, Is like to say that britain had the right oppress the US population because is was good for their society.


We're just going to have to disagree here, then. Illegal activities can and do influence legal ones. And the place I went to for my awesome Batchelor party was raided and shut down.

Steven Tindall wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:

Steven, just because someone robs a bank at 1230 in the afternoon does not mean that a second thief who decides to rob the same bank at 223 that same afternoon is absolved of all guilt. Both are crimes and should be viewed as such.

Also, your views on slavery ignore the brisk illegal trade that was done in later years when venture folk would attempt to cut out the middleman and just kidnap whatever Africans they found on their excursions to that continent.

The illegal trade has nothing to do with the fact that slavery was condemned and no new slaves were allowed to be brought in after a certain time. The existing population was the only stock that could be drawn from.

Just like the slave trade today or human trafficking still exists but we can only do what we can do. we all know it's illegal but we also know it goes on, as we find it we eliminate it but I don't see any special task force devoted to raiding massage parlors and strip clubs.
Illegal activities are not part of an equation.


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Sir_Wulf wrote:

* The Southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. "Aztlan" (the Southwest)is "occupied territory" that should be reclaimed by Mexico.

But US indeed stole territory from mexico, facts are facts.of course i am not saying that mexico should recovery that territories, that happen a long time ago, is better let the wounds heal.


Indeed, there are two sides to every story, but it's damn hard to defend banned books being ripped from the hands of the people and being sent to places unknown. If that's not fascism, it's certainly a step along the way. That said, i would like to see any evidence you had that this did not happen.

Sir_Wulf wrote:

Since I live in Tucson, I thought I'd chip in...

Equating the court's decision against Tucson's Hispanic Studies program to Fascism is a gross misrepresentation of what has been going on in Tucson.

To quote a local newspaper:
The ethnic studies law, which took effect Jan.1, 2011, bans classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, encourage resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed solely for students of a certain ethnic background and advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of students as individuals.

Instead of that, Tucson had teachers claiming that...

* The Southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. "Aztlan" (the Southwest)is "occupied territory" that should be reclaimed by Mexico.
* Mexico's people suffer from poverty and injustice because the US steals their resources.
* Mexicans are right to illegally cross the border for work, education, or medical care: It's a means of addressing historical injustices.
* America is a land of vast racial injustice, so additional steps are needed to ensure Hispanics get a fair deal in the future.
* Suitable heroes for Hispanics include such men as Pancho Villa, Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro.

When interviewed, the program's teachers denied teaching any of these ideas, but students from their classes have appeared in local media (radio and TV) demonstrating otherwise. The books used in class have endorsed all the ideas expressed above.

They had a year to give their curriculum a wider focus, but failed to do so. They instead chose to fight the state over the issue.


ok in order:

ShinHakkaider, I agree with you. My experience in school taught me that all people of color as well as women helped forge this country into what it is today.
I can name you everyone from chief Joseph to Martin Luther King Jr. to Elisabeth Van lou and on and on. The earliest scientist I ever researched was Carver concerning his agricultural work. The point I am trying and apparently failing at is that telling kids that this was a mistake and explaining why it was a mistake is one thing promoting hatred about it is not something I can believe any body would want.

BigNorseWolf: At that time of American history from what I remember about the census there really weren't enough people to do all the farm labor that needed to be done with wages or not. We made due with what was available at the time and then moved past it. To the best of my knowledge slavery as an institution was dieing out anyway, the industrial revolution was making slavery not nearly as profitable after all machines don't get sick or need food.

CunningMongoose: the state was looking at cutting funding where ever they could, all states are. Since I have only been to Arizona a handful of times and then only to party I can only say best of luck to them.


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Sir_Wulf wrote:

Since I live in Tucson, I thought I'd chip in...

Equating the court's decision against Tucson's Hispanic Studies program to Fascism is a gross misrepresentation of what has been going on in Tucson.

To quote a local newspaper:
The ethnic studies law, which took effect Jan.1, 2011, bans classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, encourage resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed solely for students of a certain ethnic background and advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of students as individuals.

Instead of that, Tucson had teachers claiming that...

* The Southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. "Aztlan" (the Southwest)is "occupied territory" that should be reclaimed by Mexico.
* Mexico's people suffer from poverty and injustice because the US steals their resources.
* Mexicans are right to illegally cross the border for work, education, or medical care: It's a means of addressing historical injustices.
* America is a land of vast racial injustice, so additional steps are needed to ensure Hispanics get a fair deal in the future.
* Suitable heroes for Hispanics include such men as Pancho Villa, Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro.

When interviewed, the program's teachers denied teaching any of these ideas, but students from their classes have appeared in local media (radio and TV) demonstrating otherwise. The books used in class have endorsed all the ideas expressed above.

They had a year to give their curriculum a wider focus, but failed to do so. They instead chose to fight the state over the issue.

Very interresting, thanks!

I must say I have nothing against teaching those, IF AND ONLY IF it's done as a debate and students are shown the two sides of the medal. I think trying to quiet this kind of discourse will only make it stronger, and that a good teacher has the right to teach those views but the duty to show their student how to be critical toward them.

It's also easy to screen students and show what you want on TV, and given that the teachers said something that contradict what those students said, I would like to know who is behind the local medias you are talking about.

It's always difficult to get the truth about a situation like this, and often there is a kind paranoia involved. We had the same here in Quebec (Canada) when marxism and atheism made an appearance in social history classes. Christians went nuts and took the government to court saying history teachers were brainwashing their children, when in fact, they were just teaching history and showing marxism and atheism as doctrines among others, and evaluating and comparing them to other political or religious movements.

Sure, you could have found a couple of students claiming to be marxists, or hard core atheists and show them to the medias, but they would have not be a good representation of what was really going on in the classes.

So, as I said, it's a very difficult situation to understand, but I hope they will find another solution, because censorship is always the least desirable one.


Sir_Wulf wrote:

Since I live in Tucson, I thought I'd chip in...

Equating the court's decision against Tucson's Hispanic Studies program to Fascism is a gross misrepresentation of what has been going on in Tucson.

To quote a local newspaper:
The ethnic studies law, which took effect Jan.1, 2011, bans classes that promote the overthrow of the U.S. government, encourage resentment toward a race or class of people, are designed solely for students of a certain ethnic background and advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of students as individuals.

Instead of that, Tucson had teachers claiming that...

* The Southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. "Aztlan" (the Southwest)is "occupied territory" that should be reclaimed by Mexico.
* Mexico's people suffer from poverty and injustice because the US steals their resources.
* Mexicans are right to illegally cross the border for work, education, or medical care: It's a means of addressing historical injustices.
* America is a land of vast racial injustice, so additional steps are needed to ensure Hispanics get a fair deal in the future.
* Suitable heroes for Hispanics include such men as Pancho Villa, Che Guevara, and Fidel Castro.

When interviewed, the program's teachers denied teaching any of these ideas, but students from their classes have appeared in local media (radio and TV) demonstrating otherwise. The books used in class have endorsed all the ideas expressed above.

They had a year to give their curriculum a wider focus, but failed to do so. They instead chose to fight the state over the issue.

WOW. those poor kids. They are going to be in for a very rude awaking when they get out into the rest of the world.


Nicos wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:


I think we will have to politely disagree on that point BNW. Until something better came along like machines then slaves were the foundation of their society.
I can imagine in 200+ years the scorn that will be placed on us for knowingly polluting our planet with automobiles because they were the only thing we had to advance our society.

1)automobiles are note necessary, at least not the ones that depend on oil. the damage that we make to the nature is not acceptable nor justifiable, specially with all the technological advances.

2) is interesting to see people defending slavery, Is like to say that Britain had the right oppress the US population because is was good for their society.

Nicos,

I want to make one thing very clear. I have at no time ever defended slavery for any reason. It is and shall remain one of the most horrible things any human being can do to another.

as far as automobiles, yes they are a necessity. our society cannot function at the current level of production on simple horse drawn carriages. Can you imagine the cost and the number of teams of horses to take one semi truck load of food from Maine to Florida. My parents drove it all the time as long haul truckers but without automobiles society would collapse. Not to mention PETA would have a field day about horse rights and abuse.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I don't know anything about books being taken from school libraries or "banned", but I haven't followed the issue as closely as I might have. If everything happened as the reports present, I agree that's a bad precedent.

My media sources are local newspaper articles (Some of which favored the students'/teachers' viewpoint), local radio discussion (which generally opposed the program), and a "Por La Raza" radio show on local public radio (which was hosted by an alumnus of the program, supported the program, and alarmed me with its wild anti-American rhetoric).


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Steven Tindall wrote:
BigNorseWolf: At that time of American history from what I remember about the census there really weren't enough people to do all the farm labor that needed to be done with wages or not.

This makes absolutely no sense.

If you need x amount of food per person then the population you have devoted to farming is self regulating: if you have less people you need less food. If you don't have enough food per person then adding or subtracting people won't change that.

If you need x amount of profit from a cash crop like tobacco or cotton (which is really what drove the slave trade) then if you cannot make that profit from free people then you do not grow the crop.

There was no NEED for slavery. It was strictly for profit to make a few people like our vaunted founding fathers, rich beyond avarice. Thats it. Greed.

They enslaved people for greed.

They whipped people for greed

They killed people for greed.

They had enough, but that wasn't enough. They wanted More money.

Quote:
We made due with what was available at the time and then moved past it.

If anything the early industrial revolution spurred slavery on. Cotton gins that were able to extract the seed from the inferior strains of cotton that would grow in the southern US gave slavery a second wind and industrial mills churning out cloth faster than ever increased demand.


Steven Tindall wrote:


as far as automobiles, yes they are a necessity. our society cannot function at the current level of production on simple horse drawn carriages. Can you imagine the cost and the number of teams of horses to take one semi truck load of food from Maine to Florida. My parents drove it all the time as long haul truckers but without automobiles society would collapse. Not to mention PETA would have a field day about horse rights and abuse.

I said cars OIL dependent.

If you did not defend slavery i apologie, but it seems like you did.


Steven Tindall wrote:


as far as automobiles, yes they are a necessity. our society cannot function at the current level of production on simple horse drawn carriages. Can you imagine the cost and the number of teams of horses to take one semi truck load of food from Maine to Florida. My parents drove it all the time as long haul truckers but without automobiles society would collapse. Not to mention PETA would have a field day about horse rights and abuse.

Trains could handle a lot of the long haul work for far less energy than trucks. You'd still need short haul truckers, of course.

Reorganizing to be more centralized could also reduce a lot of car use.


Sir_Wulf wrote:

I don't know anything about books being taken from school libraries or "banned", but I haven't followed the issue as closely as I might have. If everything happened as the reports present, I agree that's a bad precedent.

My media sources are local newspaper articles (Some of which favored the students'/teachers' viewpoint), local radio discussion (which generally opposed the program), and a "Por La Raza" radio show on local public radio (which was hosted by an alumnus of the program, supported the program, and alarmed me with its wild anti-American rhetoric).

That would be an interesting program to listen to. I don't suppose they pod cast or live stream. Can you give me the stations call letters or more information about the program please.

Anyone that can laud Castro as anything other than a dictator is someone I would love to argue with.
BTW thank you for posting. It's always nice to hear from some one on the local scene as opposed to being 3/4 of a country away in Virgina like myself.


thejeff wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:


as far as automobiles, yes they are a necessity. our society cannot function at the current level of production on simple horse drawn carriages. Can you imagine the cost and the number of teams of horses to take one semi truck load of food from Maine to Florida. My parents drove it all the time as long haul truckers but without automobiles society would collapse. Not to mention PETA would have a field day about horse rights and abuse.

Trains could handle a lot of the long haul work for far less energy than trucks. You'd still need short haul truckers, of course.

Reorganizing to be more centralized could also reduce a lot of car use.

Trains would be a great option but I don't think it would be a big savings. Trucks can get the goods to market faster and cheaper than the rails. With a truck from North Carolina going to say Texas you go from point A to point B. With a train you have depots, stations and other delays due to possible passengers or other concerns. With trucks you go from the factory to the Walmart in no time.

Please explain what you mean by Reorganizing? reorganizing what exactly?


BigNorseWolf wrote:


There was no NEED for slavery. It was strictly for profit to make a few people like our vaunted founding fathers, rich beyond avarice. Thats it. Greed.

They enslaved people for greed.

They whipped people for greed

They killed people for greed.

They had enough, but that wasn't enough. They wanted More money.

+1, Absolutely true.

Liberty's Edge

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Paul Watson wrote:
proudgeek159 wrote:
Good Lord! How stupid! What really pisses me off is that it's going to be even more diffficult for me, as a conservative, to have principled discussions with liberals. Thanks to this yahoo, it'll give liberal bigots even more of an excuse to write me off as an ignorant racist.
Because calling liberals bigots is obviously a sign of wanting an intelligent and mature discussion. I'll have to remember that.

Please allow me to be more specific: "Those liberals who happen to be bigots." There are liberals who are open to other points of view, and I do enjoy lively, well-reasoned discussions with them.

Liberty's Edge

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I do not believe that public schools should be teaching etnic studies relating to any particular group, rather they should be devoting their time and effort to teaching necessary subjects such as math, writing,and reading ( at which they seem to be failing ). If a parent wants his child to study the history or aspects of their own ethnicity, the parent should enroll the child in a non public afterschool program. This was what my grandparents who emigated to the United States did; and it turned out just fine.

Liberty's Edge

The founding fathers failed miserably in dealing with slavery. Period. However, despite their very real moral failings, they did produce a work of original genius. In the Constitution, we have a document which not only contains the tools to repair itself, but also the seeds of freedom for all groups of Americans, despite the racism of many of the authors. The Constitution is even cherished by those who resent the founders the most. In fact, I'll bet La Raza (and its lawyers) will be citing it frequently over the next few months.


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Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
I do not believe that public schools should be teaching etnic studies relating to any particular group, rather they should be devoting their time and effort to teaching necessary subjects such as math, writing, and reading (at which they seem to be failing ). If a parent wants his child to study the history or aspects of their own ethnicity, the parent should enroll the child in a non public afterschool program. This was what my grandparents who emigated to the United States did; and it turned out just fine.

The issue that a lot of people see is that the traditional "history" classes are exactly what you believe we shouldn't be doing -- teaching ethnic studies relating to a particular group (in this case, old white dudes), rather than teaching history in general. All the other "ethnic studies" are an attempt to re-introduce everyone else into the curriculum, rather than pretending they didn't exist or somehow were of no importance.

I'm an old white dude myself, but looking back in retrospect, it seems like the schools tried awfully hard to insulate me from the importance of everyone else on the planet.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
I do not believe that public schools should be teaching etnic studies relating to any particular group, rather they should be devoting their time and effort to teaching necessary subjects such as math, writing, and reading (at which they seem to be failing ). If a parent wants his child to study the history or aspects of their own ethnicity, the parent should enroll the child in a non public afterschool program. This was what my grandparents who emigated to the United States did; and it turned out just fine.
The issue that a lot of people see is that the traditional "history" classes are exactly what you believe we shouldn't be doing -- teaching ethnic studies relating to a particular group (in this case, old white dudes), rather than teaching history in general. All the other "ethnic studies" are an attempt to re-introduce everyone else into the curriculum, rather than pretending they didn't exist or somehow were of no importance.

I'd like to expand on this. America's history is deeply tied to issues of ethnicity. You can't teach American history without covering these issues in depth without giving a completely inaccurate view. Ethnic studies are something that is needed to understand our past. Without them you aren't teaching history at all, you're teaching mythology.


Montana MacAilbert wrote:
I'd like to expand on this. America's history is deeply tied to issues of ethnicity. You can't teach American history without covering these issues in depth without giving a completely inaccurate view. Ethnic studies are something that is needed to understand our past. Without them you aren't teaching history at all, you're teaching mythology.

Except in that case you shouldn't be teaching "ethnic studies", you should be teaching a more complete history (the good and bad of every group). To isolate such knowledge in individual courses that are probably an elective in any case you are saying it is ok that not everyone should know this history.


pres man wrote:
Except in that case you shouldn't be teaching "ethnic studies", you should be teaching a more complete history

I'd agree 100%, but if the curriculum's following the textbooks, which are modeled after Texas' (hell, even Thomas Jefferson got removed because he wasn't Christian enough for them), then the history being taught is a long way from being complete unless you add a bunch of supplements. Ideally, we'd bulldoze the curriculum and start over, making sure it's more or less complete to begin with (and some states have done that -- this is interesting reading -- Arizona gets a "C").


pres man wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
I'd like to expand on this. America's history is deeply tied to issues of ethnicity. You can't teach American history without covering these issues in depth without giving a completely inaccurate view. Ethnic studies are something that is needed to understand our past. Without them you aren't teaching history at all, you're teaching mythology.
Except in that case you shouldn't be teaching "ethnic studies", you should be teaching a more complete history (the good and bad of every group). To isolate such knowledge in individual courses that are probably an elective in any case you are saying it is ok that not everyone should know this history.

I agree with you, but I don't see it happening at the moment. Until it does, ethnic studies are better than nothing at all.

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