Fascism Alive and Well in 2012


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Blame America First, A Musical Interlude


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Blame America First, A Musical Interlude

Winner! What a voice. End of thread...


RedPorcupine wrote:
Marcos the Black wrote:
Montana MacAilbert wrote:
Steven Tindall wrote:
IF the native peoples had the north American continent for as long as they did. Which from my remembrance was estimated at around 10,000 years. They didn't do a whole lot with the place. We as a nation with only 400 years under our belts have touched outer space and have advanced in ways they could never have dreamed.
This is the most hateful, racist thing I have seen all day

Steven's statement is a factual one.

Keep in mind that the last 400 years included geniuses like George Washington Carver, Steven Chu, Einstein, and Mark Dean. All Americans. Where is your imputed racism?

The rasicm lies in using it as an argument, in counting technological progress and expansion as a virtue in itself, as opposed to the injuns simply living of and with the land, somehow implicating that it was their fault for being exterminated.

IMO their major fault was not to understand the concept of " extermination warfare". Sitting Bull propably should never have fled to Canada.

Einstein doesn´t really count as an american for me, anymore than Heisenberg or Braun.

This is precisely my point.


RedPorcupine wrote:
Aretas wrote:


So many people on these boards loathe the country they live in.

I strongly doubt that they " loath" their country. It seems that rather they hate the bigotry and selective blindness, the arrogance of power, the willfull ignoring of the chesspit of atrocities, that lies under the thin paint of civilization.

The USA were primarily built on the blood of indians, the sweat and tears of african slaves and the ruthless exploitation of chinese, mexicans and assorted others.

Again, this is my point.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
CunningMongoose wrote:

You know BigNorseWolf, even if we did disagree in the past, I think you are a really decent person. It takes a lot of critical thinking to aknowledge freedom in the USA (and Canada) is but the effect of the aggressive external policies (in case of Canada, economical agressivity, usually through mining corporations) of your country combined with a false sense of endowment inside the borders.

Respect.

Awww.. thats sweet.

You're still not getting my Bud Light.

Keep it, I'll keep IPA.


RedPorcupine wrote:
The USA were primarily built on the blood of indians, the sweat and tears of african slaves and the ruthless exploitation of chinese, mexicans and assorted others.

*Emphasis mine*

I think you'd have a hard time proving that was the case. While all of those things (unfortunately) played a part in the USA's development, to say that they were the primary method, well I'm not sure that is giving an accurate view of the accomplishments of people of all races, creeds, and ancestry.


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Aretas wrote:
Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Its good to be the toughest kid in a neighborhood full of maniacs, totalitarians and blood thirsty killers.

By being even more so?

Quote:
I'm sure you would greatly miss America and our freedoms if we lost our/its hegemony.

No. I'm not from the class that benefits from it. I'm from the class that dies in their wars.

Quote:
Would your model nation be China? Syria? Uganda?
There are almost 200 countries. Could we maybe look at some others? Those three are particularly sad. Perhaps we should look at the 1st world. Problem is, we're so economically dependent on our war machine, it would be a lot of work to dismantle it much and still stay employed. Keeping it up is costing us, too, in equally sad ways.
So many people on these boards loathe the country they live in. You all have it so good you don't even know it. Its a savage world and the US has kept its hegemony without losing its soul. Thank God your in this country, you are blessed.

There's an uncle in your family. He's a pretty cool dude most of your life. He took kids to ball games, hosted awesome family barbecues and was generally nice to people.

Unfortunately, he was also an alcoholic. One night he had too much to drink and got behind the wheel. He plowed into a minivan with a family in it and killed them all.

Can you still love the uncle, while teaching your kids that he did something wrong?

And please don't tell me I don't love my country. I served 7 years active duty, 1999-2006. I wasn't meant to be a career military person, but knowing everything I know now, I would still do it again.


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Aretas wrote:

Its good to be the toughest kid in a neighborhood full of maniacs, totalitarians and blood thirsty killers.

I'm sure you would greatly miss America and our freedoms if we lost our/its hegemony.

Would your model nation be China? Syria? Uganda?

My 2 copper...does anyone use electrom anymore?

Love you guys! Have a nice weekend Dice-men.

If you really think there is no other way between USA and Uganda, you are sadly narrow-minded. Just look beyond your north border, or across the Atlantic for various first world examples.

Don't you think that that USA has somewhat "lost its soul" by allowing torture and detainment without due process ? It seems that everyone in the world, except your former government, knows that waterboarding IS torture. Historically, to come back to the thread topic, it was a favorite of the Gestapo.


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Benicio Del Espada wrote:

I'm thinking Mr. Tindall learned this "cherry-picked" version of US history, and is encountering some cognitive dissonance at the very real fact that the US is not always the "good guy." It moves and acts like an empire, and has for over a century.

Name any other country that has military bases all over the world, two wars in countries on a foreign continent, and surrogate wars going on at all times on most of the other continents.

Am I "blaming America first," or stating facts?

Reccomended reading:
This, and this.

I knew about Butler : a decorated war hero, who publicly claimed that the numerous wars he fighted in central america were money making schemes for the greater profit of various corporations who happened to be well introduced in Washington. Sounds familiar...

Ended its life hounded by the FBI as a german spy, or a soviet one, can't remember which one.


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Tell it, Irontruth. I don't hate America, either, despite many of the things I say. In fact, I enlisted in the Navy to serve her. Granted, that ended quickly do to medical issues, but I wanted to make a career out of it.

However, the fact is that America has a TON of greedy, imperialistic, and deceitful behavior in her past, and continues to act that way today. I demand that our children be educated about this instead of being filled with visions of how great America is. This isn't because I hate America, this is because I want her to become better than she is. I don't want our children to learn of all the bad things this country has done and still does so that they can loath their nationality, I want them to learn these things so that they can demand better. That's not being anti-American, that's being pro-American. I believe that glossing over this country's faults and not asking how she could be better is doing a massive disservice to one of the greatest countries to ever exist, and I think that is disgusting, inexcusable, and damned unpatriotic. We shouldn't settle for what we have, we should keep striving for the best. Freedom has a price, and that price is eternal vigilance. That means watching what the government does, learning about, and, when these actions are wrong, saying so as loudly as possible. Anything less is a disservice to those who fought and died for our freedoms.


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Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

Tell it, Irontruth. I don't hate America, either, despite many of the things I say. In fact, I enlisted in the Navy to serve her. Granted, that ended quickly do to medical issues, but I wanted to make a career out of it.

However, the fact is that America has a TON of greedy, imperialistic, and deceitful behavior in her past, and continues to act that way today. I demand that our children be educated about this instead of being filled with visions of how great America is. This isn't because I hate America, this is because I want her to become better than she is. I don't want our children to learn of all the bad things this country has done and still does so that they can loath their nationality, I want them to learn these things so that they can demand better. That's not being anti-American, that's being pro-American. I believe that glossing over this country's faults and not asking how she could be better is doing a massive disservice to one of the greatest countries to ever exist, and I think that is disgusting, inexcusable, and damned unpatriotic. We shouldn't settle for what we have, we should keep striving for the best. Freedom has a price, and that price is eternal vigilance. That means watching what the government does, learning about, and, when these actions are wrong, saying so as loudly as possible. Anything less is a disservice to those who fought and died for our freedoms.

This. A thousand times over.

Not "Love her or leave her", but "Love her and make her even better."


Kelsey MacAilbert wrote:

Tell it, Irontruth. I don't hate America, either, despite many of the things I say. In fact, I enlisted in the Navy to serve her. Granted, that ended quickly do to medical issues, but I wanted to make a career out of it.

However, the fact is that America has a TON of greedy, imperialistic, and deceitful behavior in her past, and continues to act that way today. I demand that our children be educated about this instead of being filled with visions of how great America is. This isn't because I hate America, this is because I want her to become better than she is. I don't want our children to learn of all the bad things this country has done and still does so that they can loath their nationality, I want them to learn these things so that they can demand better. That's not being anti-American, that's being pro-American. I believe that glossing over this country's faults and not asking how she could be better is doing a massive disservice to one of the greatest countries to ever exist, and I think that is disgusting, inexcusable, and damned unpatriotic. We shouldn't settle for what we have, we should keep striving for the best. Freedom has a price, and that price is eternal vigilance. That means watching what the government does, learning about, and, when these actions are wrong, saying so as loudly as possible. Anything less is a disservice to those who fought and died for our freedoms.

I agree with this thought ... up to a point. If you find that all you do is criticize the behavior, then I'm not sure you are actually helping. Sort of like the overbearing parent that tells their child that they are never good enough. Get a 95% on a test, why didn't you get a 100%. Got second place in race, why didn't you get first. Yes we have to try to do better, but if we never acknowledge the good that we have done/now do, we aren't going to know what we should be doing only what we shouldn't be doing.


I'm not saying we shouldn't acknowledge the good we do and have done. There is nothing wrong in being proud of those things. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't ignore the bad, and should point it out when it comes up, and I'm saying that we should never stop trying to be better than we are now.


Smarnil le couard wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Its good to be the toughest kid in a neighborhood full of maniacs, totalitarians and blood thirsty killers.

I'm sure you would greatly miss America and our freedoms if we lost our/its hegemony.

Would your model nation be China? Syria? Uganda?

My 2 copper...does anyone use electrom anymore?

Love you guys! Have a nice weekend Dice-men.

If you really think there is no other way between USA and Uganda, you are sadly narrow-minded. Just look beyond your north border, or across the Atlantic for various first world examples.

Don't you think that that USA has somewhat "lost its soul" by allowing torture and detainment without due process ? It seems that everyone in the world, except your former government, knows that waterboarding IS torture. Historically, to come back to the thread topic, it was a favorite of the Gestapo.

Sadly narrow minded? I'm looking at your 1st world examples and those economies are in total failure. The European experiment of Democratic Socialism is a failure, simple as that.

No I do not believe America has lost its soul. I believe that those who have declared war on America are subject to detainment, interogation and torture, especially if they have valuable information that they are withholding that would save lives. Those scum use our laws, and freedoms against us.

The fact you said "Your government" is so chilling. The only explanation is that liberalism is a mental disorder.


pres man wrote:
RedPorcupine wrote:
The USA were primarily built on the blood of indians, the sweat and tears of african slaves and the ruthless exploitation of chinese, mexicans and assorted others.

*Emphasis mine*

I think you'd have a hard time proving that was the case. While all of those things (unfortunately) played a part in the USA's development, to say that they were the primary method, well I'm not sure that is giving an accurate view of the accomplishments of people of all races, creeds, and ancestry.

I agree pres man. Its anti American propaganda aimed at teaching people a revisionist history of an America that was built on the blood, sweat and tears of non Whites.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Wow. I always hear about people like that, but this is my first time interacting with one.


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Aretas wrote:
I agree pres man. Its anti American propaganda aimed at teaching people a revisionist history of an America that was built on the blood, sweat and tears of non Whites.

Anti-American propaganda? Revisionist history? You might want to turn off the Glenn Beck and do some fact-checking. Facts are neither pro nor anti-anything, and can't be called propaganda.


Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Ok, so the last Black man was lynched 48 years ago. Thats terrible.

Equally terrible is the unreported acts of violence against Whites by minorities.

We live now, not in the past. Everyone in this country is hurting to get by and succeed. Everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement. Nobobdy is holding anyone down. Its my opinion that race should not be a factor in college admission and it should not be a factor in the work place.

This might not go well with some but its the truth. Qualified and/or over qualified Whites are being passed over in college admissions and the work place to minorities.

As a son of immigrant parents who came to the US with nothing I would scrap affirmative action.

last black person in the country lynched 48 years ago? Never heard of jasper Texas, huh? Crimes against whites by minorities going unreported? Where do you live, friend? Whites are far more likely to call the fuzz than any other group along ethnic lines unless they are living here illegally. As for wanting to keep race as a factor out of schools and workplaces,, that's all well and good, but it has always been historically hard to account for bigotry. If you want to roll the dice on that, fine, but you're still going to have a leg up on me as I'm still a minority and you still are (probably) not.

Yes I am White and I disagree that I have a leg up on you. I live in Chicago friend. Have you ever heard of the Murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom? How about the racially motivated mob attack on Whites at the Milwaukee state fair last year?

I'm not sure where you live friend, Whites have more to fear from Blacks not the other way around. Is it true that Blacks are more likely than Whites to commit violent crimes. That aside, I heard a good quote from a 70's band that went like this.
"Don't hate the Black, don't hate the White, just hate the Bite".


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Aretas wrote:
I agree pres man. Its anti American propaganda aimed at teaching people a revisionist history of an America that was built on the blood, sweat and tears of non Whites.
Anti-American propaganda? Revisionist history? You might want to turn off the Glenn Beck and do some fact-checking. Facts are neither pro nor anti-anything, and can't be called propaganda.

I don't listen to Glenn Beck, though I do have more in common with him than I do with left wing socialist hacks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Aretas wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Ok, so the last Black man was lynched 48 years ago. Thats terrible.

Equally terrible is the unreported acts of violence against Whites by minorities.

We live now, not in the past. Everyone in this country is hurting to get by and succeed. Everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement. Nobobdy is holding anyone down. Its my opinion that race should not be a factor in college admission and it should not be a factor in the work place.

This might not go well with some but its the truth. Qualified and/or over qualified Whites are being passed over in college admissions and the work place to minorities.

As a son of immigrant parents who came to the US with nothing I would scrap affirmative action.

last black person in the country lynched 48 years ago? Never heard of jasper Texas, huh? Crimes against whites by minorities going unreported? Where do you live, friend? Whites are far more likely to call the fuzz than any other group along ethnic lines unless they are living here illegally. As for wanting to keep race as a factor out of schools and workplaces,, that's all well and good, but it has always been historically hard to account for bigotry. If you want to roll the dice on that, fine, but you're still going to have a leg up on me as I'm still a minority and you still are (probably) not.

Yes I am White and I disagree that I have a leg up on you. I live in Chicago friend. Have you ever heard of the Murders of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom? How about the racially motivated mob attack on Whites at the Milwaukee state fair last year?

I'm not sure where you live friend, Whites have more to fear from Blacks not the other way around. Is it true that Blacks are more likely than Whites to commit violent crimes. That aside, I heard from a good quote from a 70's band that went like this.
"Don't hate the Black, don't hate the White, just hate the Bite".

If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not.


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Aretas wrote:
I don't listen to Glenn Beck, though I do have more in common with him than I do with left wing socialist hacks.

Nice reposte. Facts have nothing to do with ideology. They just are, however inconvenient they are to your fantasy narrative, or whatever names you call them.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Aretas wrote:
left wing socialist hacks.

You are breaking the forum rules with your name calling. Please stop and debate politely.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

Wow a lot of posts in a short time. Unfortunately, this issue is a perfect example of why in America today we have so much trouble dealing with issues. Once the "fascism" cat is out of the bag it is hard to discuss an issue calmly.

While censorship is undesireable, and generally useless in the broader context, a local community has the right to decide what its children will read. Based on the list of titles I saw, it looked like a bunch of anti-European anti-Untited States rhetoric. Is that really appropriate for a public school system? One of our real problems here in the United States is that we have citizens who do believe that is appropriate.

One of the foundations of a Nation State is love of country. No country in the world...NO COUNTRY!...teaches its people that it is a bad country whose past is full of horrible injustice. If a country does begin down that road it is likely not going to exist very long.

Mexico has come up often in this discussion. That land was once owned by Mexico. That is true...and before that Spain owned the land, and before that the Navaho or Hopi heck even France was in charge for a while. Does Mexico fill its students full of stories about how horrible Mexico is for oppressing its southern navtive tribes? No it doesn't. Does Mexico allow open borders and unfettered access to its country from the north or south. No it doesn't. Does it provide benefits and tuition breaks to illegal immigrants. No it does not. Does France? Does Germany? Does Brazil? Does Russia? Does China? Does Britain? Does Anyone. Only in the U.S. do people even entertain such ideas.

Why is the U.S. constantly expected to do what no other country in the world will do?? I personally don't know or understand why other people seem to think that freedom equals self destructive behavior.

History is History. It should not be altered or hidden. It should be learned from. History has made us who we are. And we are not what we were 50 or 100 or 200 years ago. Present day whites are not slave owners. Present day Germans are not automatically Nazis. Arizon is a part of the United States and not Mexico. It would be suicidal for it to act as if it were not.


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Just to be clear Aretas, are you giving up on your statement about the last black man lynched was 48 years ago? What about that comment that "everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement"? You never got back to me about how that's possible with the horrible disparity in the quality of schools.


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thunderspirit wrote:
If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not.

Well, unless we are considering Asians. But of course they don't really get to be counted as real non-whites.


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pres man wrote:
thunderspirit wrote:
If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not.
Well, unless we are considering Asians. But of course they don't really get to be counted as real non-whites.

Here, again, we see a non-factual statement regarding race that pres man expects us to accept as factual.

The "look at how well Asians do in school" ploy is evidence, again, of a perspective that ignores other factors.

Just to get you started, let's look at the economic status of those Asians who legally emigrate here vs. the Asians who have no chance of buying plane tickets.

Mexicans who emigrate here usually do so on foot, and illegally. If they were rich Mexicans, they wouldn't do that. Mexico is a great place to live if you have money. Horribly dangerous and desperate if you don't.

The extremes of rich and poor there are more dire than here, at least for now, and being on the poor end of the scale makes the worst jobs in this country desirable to people who have no way to better their lot in life in Mexico, regardless of their "gumption."


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
pres man wrote:
thunderspirit wrote:
If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not.
Well, unless we are considering Asians. But of course they don't really get to be counted as real non-whites.

Here, again, we see a non-factual statement regarding race that pres man expects us to accept as factual.

The "look at how well Asians do in school" ploy is evidence, again, of a perspective that ignores other factors.

Just to get you started, let's look at the economic status of those Asians who legally immigrate here vs. the Asians who have no chance of buying plane tickets.

Mexicans who immigrate here usually do so on foot, and illegally. If they were rich Mexicans, they wouldn't do that. Mexico is a great place to live if you have money. Horribly dangerous and desperate if you don't.

So your claim is that all Asians are only first generation immigrants and all people of Mexican descent in the US are only first generation as well?


pres man wrote:
So your claim is that all Asians are only first generation immigrants and all people of Mexican descent in the US are only first generation as well?

Of course not. Stop trying to deflect. You made a fact-free statement and got called on it. Try another tack, because that won't fly.


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Benicio Del Espada wrote:
pres man wrote:
So your claim is that all Asians are only first generation immigrants and all people of Mexican descent in the US are only first generation as well?
Of course not. Stop trying to deflect.

Well considering I was originally replying to the statement:

"If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not."

Are you suggesting that every single white person has a leg up on 100% of everyone who is not? If not, then I fail to see what you are getting at.


pres man wrote:


Well considering I was originally replying to the statement:
"If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not."

Are you suggesting that every single white person has a leg up on 100% of everyone who is not? If not, then I fail to see what you are getting at.

I didn't suggest it, but now that you mention it, I can take your "Asians" argument and use that construct to say that's true. I would, however, be making the same fallacious argument you did, so I won't.

I think your arguments so far stem from a number of misconceptions, but it doesn't surprise me.


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Benicio Del Espada wrote:
pres man wrote:


Well considering I was originally replying to the statement:
"If you're white, you absolutely have a leg up on anyone who's not."

Are you suggesting that every single white person has a leg up on 100% of everyone who is not? If not, then I fail to see what you are getting at.

I didn't suggest it, but now that you mention it, I can take your "Asians" argument and use that construct to say that's true. I would, however, be making the same fallacious argument you did, so I won't.

I think your arguments so far stem from a number of misconceptions, but it doesn't surprise me.

Misconceptions like this:

in 2004 median income:
White/European American
Male $31,335
Female $17,648

Asian
Male $32,419
Female $20,618


pres man wrote:


Misconceptions like this:

Exactly.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
pres man wrote:


Misconceptions like this:

Exactly.

Well if that is what it means to have a leg down, then please give me a leg down.

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

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Not a fan of the flags this thread is getting. I'm not going to remove any posts, but please remember a few things here: Not everyone participating in this conversation is American, white, heterosexual, male or whatever other invisible backpacks you're bringing with you. If you want to make blanket statements like "clearly mental disorder" or "all white history drives like this and all non-white history drives like this, amirite" please dial back the painting-entire-groups-with-a-single-brush and try to engage people as individual people and not stereotypes. It's entirely possible to have wildly diverging worldviews and still be civil and fact-based rather than relying on rhetoric and snide rejoinders. That goes for both sides of the pile-on.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
left wing socialist hacks.
You are breaking the forum rules with your name calling. Please stop and debate politely.

Benicio made a statement regarding my opinion of Glenn Beck. I did not call anyone on these boards a left wing socialist hack. I was making a statement about Becks friends on the other side of the dial or channel, Maddow, Schulz, Young Turks, ect..ect.

The flag was unwarranted by you TriOmega. You knew that I did not mean it that way.

In other news, Iuz the Evil as been assasinated while visiting General Sindol of the legion of Black death in the city of Molag by adventurers & knights of the Holy Shielding.

= >


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
Aretas wrote:
I don't listen to Glenn Beck, though I do have more in common with him than I do with left wing socialist hacks.
Nice reposte. Facts have nothing to do with ideology. They just are, however inconvenient they are to your fantasy narrative, or whatever names you call them.

I have come to realize that we are all for the advancement of our society. My narrative is fantasy to you, your narrative is fantasy to me. Debate on Left/Right is not in my interest on these boards. I have no skin in this game.

If your American you can speak about these issues by casting your vote in 2012.


Hippygriff wrote:
Just to be clear Aretas, are you giving up on your statement about the last black man lynched was 48 years ago? What about that comment that "everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement"? You never got back to me about how that's possible with the horrible disparity in the quality of schools.

Wow that was awesome, nice!


Aretas wrote:
Hippygriff wrote:
Just to be clear Aretas, are you giving up on your statement about the last black man lynched was 48 years ago? What about that comment that "everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement"? You never got back to me about how that's possible with the horrible disparity in the quality of schools.
Wow that was awesome, nice!

So… No answer?


Hippygriff wrote:
Just to be clear Aretas, are you giving up on your statement about the last black man lynched was 48 years ago? What about that comment that "everyone has an equal opportunity for advancement"? You never got back to me about how that's possible with the horrible disparity in the quality of schools.

Sorry about that.

The statement about the 48 years ago was not made by me, I was responding to it from another member who posted that.

Regarding the disparity in the quality of schools. I would have to ask my teachers union rep. I'm just throwing this out there but maybe some Black kids grow up in disfunctional households? Lacking Black parental role models they grasp on to unsavory role models and peers.
Street culture in general. I wish we could get rid of the politically correct attitudes that allow it to grow and flourish. All of this does not create a fertile enviroment for a good neighborhood or school.


Aretas wrote:


No I do not believe America has lost its soul. I believe that those who have declared war on America are subject to detainment, interogation and torture, especially if they have valuable information that they are withholding that would save lives. Those scum use our laws, and freedoms against us.

That is a very difficult issue and moral dilemma/problem, admitedly.

Officially allowing and encouraging it, is an abomination though, IMO.
I was more reffering to the point that he wasn´t even properly elected and then went on to lie to the world, to start a largely pointless war, apparently for the benefit of his friends at Halliburton.

PS: On the other hand, one could argue that this is a time-honoured practice of the U.S.A..


Aretas wrote:
The statement about the 48 years ago was not made by me, I was responding to it from another member who posted that.

Ah, I see it now… Ok, moving on.

Aretas wrote:
Regarding the disparity in the quality of schools. I would have to ask my teachers union rep. I'm just throwing this out there but maybe some Black kids grow up in disfunctional households? Lacking Black parental role models they grasp on to unsavory role models and peers.

Asking your teacher's union rep is a good idea.

Maybe it's because more blacks, latinos, and whites than our country likes to admit are poor and their parents are working a ridiculous amount of hours trying to keep a roof over their family's head? Dysfunctional families aren't limited to poor neighborhoods but people living in those neighborhoods are routinely denied chances to improve their life. Schools the county turned it's back on, loans are harder to get, poor housing, poor choices in available jobs…


Aretas wrote:
I'm looking at your 1st world examples and those economies are in total failure. The European experiment of Democratic Socialism is a failure, simple as that.

That´s your opinion. Let´s not forget that this mess started with the US- real estate bubble finally bursting, Lehman´s going under and so on, so the american " experiment" is no unfettered success either.

Greece is a failure and should never have been allowed in the EU under the conditions they did, Potugal and Ireland are faltering, but apart from the usual bordello, even Italy´s economy is running.
Lots of mismanagment all around, but the over-indebting of countries has become a normal practice in the last decades, also in the U.S..


RedPorcupine wrote:
Aretas wrote:


No I do not believe America has lost its soul. I believe that those who have declared war on America are subject to detainment, interogation and torture, especially if they have valuable information that they are withholding that would save lives. Those scum use our laws, and freedoms against us.

That is a very difficult issue and moral dilemma/problem, admitedly.

Officially allowing it, is an abomination though, IMO.
I was more reffering to the point that he wasn´t even properly elected and then went on to lie to the world, to start a largely pointless war, apparently for the benefit of his friends at Halliburton.

He was elected President of the United States of America. Kerry had a good run but came up short. Accept the lose and move forward. Throw your allegiance behind the President. Sadly I did not see this from many Kerry supporters after Bush was elected.

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Aretas wrote:
RedPorcupine wrote:
Aretas wrote:


No I do not believe America has lost its soul. I believe that those who have declared war on America are subject to detainment, interogation and torture, especially if they have valuable information that they are withholding that would save lives. Those scum use our laws, and freedoms against us.

That is a very difficult issue and moral dilemma/problem, admitedly.

Officially allowing it, is an abomination though, IMO.
I was more reffering to the point that he wasn´t even properly elected and then went on to lie to the world, to start a largely pointless war, apparently for the benefit of his friends at Halliburton.

He was elected President of the United States of America. Kerry had a good run but came up short. Accept the lose and move forward. Throw your allegiance behind the President. Sadly I did not see this from many Kerry supporters after Bush was elected.

Not really seeing it from Republicans with Obama, either. Just saying.


Gore 2000, was what i was thinking on , but i´m not deep enough into the Florida-ballot-issue, to discuss this. Hilarious. The misunderstanding, as well that he was actually elected for his second run. Staircase wit of history.
And maybe we shouldn´t open the Iraq-can-of-worms in this thread. We´ll see when the U.S. learn this particular lesson.


Paul Watson wrote:
Not really seeing it from Republicans with Obama, either. Just saying.

HA! Good one.

PS: " Not really seeing it " is really mild. The thought conjured up the image of people with frothing mouths fingering white hoodies impatiently.;)


RedPorcupine wrote:
Aretas wrote:
I'm looking at your 1st world examples and those economies are in total failure. The European experiment of Democratic Socialism is a failure, simple as that.

That´s your opinion. Let´s not forget that this mess started with the US- real estate bubble finally bursting, Lehman´s going under and so on, so the american " experiment" is no unfettered success either.

Greece is a failure and should never have been allowed in the EU under the conditions they did, Potugal and Ireland are faltering, but apart from the usual bordello, even Italy´s economy is running.
Lots of mismanagment all around, but the over-indebting of countries has become a normal practice in the last decades, also in the U.S..

I blame the Community Reinvestment Act for the housing bubble not a failure of capitalism. Loans were given on marginal properties and to people with questionable credit history. I know so many people who didn't even show income or citizenship to get a loan.

Fannie and Freddie acted in response to pressure by the government to boost home ownership rates among the poor.
Banks were screwed even harder when Fannie and Freddie began buying up their bad loans and offering them for sale on the world market.
I would have voted for less government intervention, no bail outs and strict free market capitalism.

Regards to Europe, only time will tell on who is right. Downgrades & bail outs are not a good sign of things to come.


Paul Watson wrote:
Aretas wrote:
RedPorcupine wrote:
Aretas wrote:


No I do not believe America has lost its soul. I believe that those who have declared war on America are subject to detainment, interogation and torture, especially if they have valuable information that they are withholding that would save lives. Those scum use our laws, and freedoms against us.

That is a very difficult issue and moral dilemma/problem, admitedly.

Officially allowing it, is an abomination though, IMO.
I was more reffering to the point that he wasn´t even properly elected and then went on to lie to the world, to start a largely pointless war, apparently for the benefit of his friends at Halliburton.

He was elected President of the United States of America. Kerry had a good run but came up short. Accept the lose and move forward. Throw your allegiance behind the President. Sadly I did not see this from many Kerry supporters after Bush was elected.

Not really seeing it from Republicans with Obama, either. Just saying.

Nothing wrong with loyal opposition. Obama & dems had 2 years with majorities in both houses to do as they wished. Just saying.


RedPorcupine wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Not really seeing it from Republicans with Obama, either. Just saying.

HA! Good one.

PS: " Not really seeing it " is really mild. The thought conjured up the image of people with frothing mouths fingering white hoodies impatiently.;)

What are you talking about? White hoodies? Explain.


Hoods? Cowls ? The hats the KluKluxClan wears. Not meaning to insult Republicans. Just wondering what causes the frothing in some cases.

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