Fascism Alive and Well in 2012


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How are men going to stay rich in a world where we can build matter at the sub-atomic level?

How do objects maintain value when we can make them from dirt?

How it is today is not how it will be tomorrow.

The annihilation of all value is on the horizon.

The entire rethinking and redesign of the human race as we know it.

The elites will not be elite for much longer as they never had the power to begin with.

All the rich people don't show up for work tomorrow, what happens? Nothing happens, society continues to function.

All of us don't show up for work, society crashes.

We are the ones with the power and we're finally waking up to that fact.


Guys, I think you're reading a little too much into Citizen Fleshgrinder's, uh, sci-fi take on politics.

What's up with this machine that can replicate weed, Fleshgrinder? I want a link!


I swear I feel like the only person who even stays on top of the current extent of technology.

This isn't sci-fi, this is 20 to 30 years in the future.

Technology grows at an exponential rate.

Imagine the growth from 1980 to 1990.

90 to 2000 was more than 10 times that growth.

2000 to 2010 was more than 10 times 90 to 2000.

2010 to 2020 will be 10 times that 10 times which was already 10 times.

2020 to 2030... you get the idea.

The future is bright, not grim.

From 1800 to now, everything on earth has improved.

There is no sign of this trend stopping.


Men are going to stay rich or powerful because they have power now and will use that power to control the changes.

It's possible we'll change that, but the last decades have been sliding in the other direction. I'm not willing to just assume that technological change will fix that without effort.


Fleshgrinder wrote:

I swear I feel like the only person who even stays on top of the current extent of technology.

This isn't sci-fi, this is 20 to 30 years in the future.

Technology grows at an exponential rate.

Imagine the growth from 1980 to 1990.

90 to 2000 was more than 10 times that growth.

2000 to 2010 was more than 10 times 90 to 2000.

2010 to 2020 will be 10 times that 10 times which was already 10 times.

2020 to 2030... you get the idea.

The future is bright, not grim.

From 1800 to now, everything on earth has improved.

There is no sign of this trend stopping.

Yeah the singularity is coming. Everything will be perfect any day now. No need to worry about all the problems we have.

Immortality has been right around the corner since the 60s, at least. Along with fusion. "Power to cheap to meter."


Fleshgrinder wrote:
I swear I feel like the only person who even stays on top of the current extent of technology.

Well, then, give me a link!

I typed "3D printer" and "rat's heart" into google and got nothing.

EDIT: Because I spelled it wrong! Hee hee!


thejeff wrote:

Men are going to stay rich or powerful because they have power now and will use that power to control the changes.

It's possible we'll change that, but the last decades have been sliding in the other direction. I'm not willing to just assume that technological change will fix that without effort.

But the last decades haven't been shifting.

Across the word when you look at the average, we've gotten better. We get better every year.

Sure, some countries have bigger slides than others, but the average continues to rise.

The minutia is just that, minutia. White noise.

The guys at the top want you to be afraid of progress.

Don't let them win.

Smile, walk out in front of them and pull you junk out.

It's a glorious f'ing future.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Fleshgrinder wrote:
I swear I feel like the only person who even stays on top of the current extent of technology.

Well, then, give me a link!

I typed "3D printer" and "rat's heart" into google and got nothing.

EDIT: Because I spelled it wrong! Hee hee!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtFXWnjVFV8

Go to Youtube, subscribe to anything "TED" related, BigThink, and Solve By X.

That's where you will see the future unfolding in the now.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Fleshgrinder wrote:
I swear I feel like the only person who even stays on top of the current extent of technology.

Well, then, give me a link!

I typed "3D printer" and "rat's heart" into google and got nothing.

If you put in "printed a beating heart" you get a story on using a bio printer to print chicken heart cells which self organized and began beating when placed in proximity to each other.

We've been doing this with frog heart cells for decade, the printing's the big advance.

The difference between printing cells and printing a beating heart seems to me to be on a par with smelting metal and building a function internal combustion engine.


I'm already scared.

Although, IIRC, in The Diamond Age you can mindmeld with a bunch of fornicating hippies in the Pacific Northwest somewhere, and that might be cool.


It's not exactly the same, as the metal of a combustion engine isn't specifically genetically programmed to do what it does, while heart cells want to beat.

And that's only ONE method.

We could also clone brainless bodies and use them as backup organs.

We could eventually completely replace flesh organs with synthetic ones.

It's not like scientists are only working on one solution to the problem.

We've had recent successes in recording images from a human brain. This could mean we can digitize human thought. Then we don't even need a body.


Until we invent a soul-transplant digitalizing human thought is going to be a reproduction; sure, it'll answer back, but it won't be immortality anymore than a statue or a photograph is.

Not that the conversation shouldn't digress, but how does the Age of Technowonders relate to the state refusing to teach minority history?


Hitdice wrote:

Until we invent a soul-transplant digitalizing human thought is going to be a reproduction; sure, it'll answer back, but it won't be immortality anymore than a statue or a photograph is.

Not that the conversation shouldn't digress, but how does the Age of Technowonders relate to the state refusing to teach minority history?

That assumes the existence of a soul, which no evidence has existed for.

Could we have a soul? Maybe. We could also be full of invisible unicorns. Both are equally likely.

All evidence points to us being little but software installed on hardware, we're just learning software.

And it relates because speaking of the future shows how inconsequential the entire argument over teaching any specific history of any race is.

The universe has existed for about 14 billion years. All human history makes up a fart in the wind in comparison.

Sure, fight against the bigotry, but don't get too worried about it.

Ain't nothing but a speed bump on the road of assiduous progress.


Flesh, we're both white guys. Let me tell you, it's really easy to say "Sure, fight against bigotry, but don't get too worried about it," when you're on the top of the heap socio-politcally speaking. No one ever refused to teach our history because they found it politically divisive.

I mean sure, we choose not to teach parts of our own history, but all that tells me is that the power lies with the people who write the text books, not the ones who've had their brains transplanted into yet to be invented Robobods{tm}.


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Fleshgrinder wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Men are going to stay rich or powerful because they have power now and will use that power to control the changes.

It's possible we'll change that, but the last decades have been sliding in the other direction. I'm not willing to just assume that technological change will fix that without effort.

But the last decades haven't been shifting.

Across the word when you look at the average, we've gotten better. We get better every year.

Sure, some countries have bigger slides than others, but the average continues to rise.

The minutia is just that, minutia. White noise.

The guys at the top want you to be afraid of progress.

Don't let them win.

Smile, walk out in front of them and pull you junk out.

It's a glorious f'ing future.

Better's a tricky word. We've certainly got more clever tech toys.

We've also got better ways of controlling the masses. We've done more environmental damage since 1800 than in the rest of our history.

Over the last few decades have we really gotten better? Freer? More equal? Since the 70s in the US, the gap between rich and poor has grown. Most of us work longer hours for less than we would have back then. Many people here will tell you about the losses to civil liberties even over the last decade. Surveillance has become a bigger problem around the world as the tech has gotten better.

Have some things gotten better? Yes, certainly. I'm not anywhere near as pessimistic as I might sound here. I'm just trying to point out the other side of your overwhelming optimism


Yes, if you look at a graph of the world and measure countries by freedom, happiness, health care, infant mortality, hunger we've gone UP CONSTANTLY.

Yes, some countries have had quite the backslide. The US being one of them, my own country isn't in the greatest shape either, but overall the human race has become more free, happier, healthier, and generally "better".

There has been a constant trend of the average HDI (Human Development Index) rising.

The world is getting better by every possible metric you can measure... except maybe climate, which we're having a problem with.

Care about what YOU can change.

Don't worry about what YOU can't.

I can't make people less racist.
My vote means nothing in our current form of democracy (Canada is slightly different than the US, but our systems are similar)

There is almost nothing on this planet I have the ability to directly influence... so I don't worry about it.

Worrying never fixed anything.

My small contribution is the attempt to spread a little optimism and information on medical technology when I am able.

Yes... lots of people live s+++ty lives. I can't help them and I refuse to torture myself by being broken up about it.


A little optimism about the future is a good thing. But willfully turning a blind eye to the evils of today just makes them worse.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.


Conversely, it's also possible to dwell on stuff too much as to guarantee it sticks around and never leaves our society.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I daresay the 'constant' improvement is the result of people addressing the ills of their world in the present rather than thinking 'the future will be better'. That's the thing about pushing a stone uphill. Stop pushing and it goes no further. Let go and it rolls back.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I daresay the 'constant' improvement is the result of people addressing the ills of their world in the present rather than thinking 'the future will be better'. That's the thing about pushing a stone uphill. Stop pushing and it goes no further. Let go and it rolls back.

Wise words.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Kryzbyn wrote:
Conversely, it's also possible to dwell on stuff too much as to guarantee it sticks around and never leaves our society.

Exactly. If we abolish firefighters, then we'll never have any fires ever again!


And I was just thinking, 'this thread needs moar hyperbole!'
MiB never disappoints.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Kryzbyn wrote:

And I was just thinking, 'this thread needs moar hyperbole!'

MiB never disappoints.

So you're saying that it'd be reasonable to say, "If we abolished firefighters, we'd have fewer fires"?

Explain how ignoring racism makes it go away. It'll be magical.

Liberty's Edge

A Man In Black wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:

And I was just thinking, 'this thread needs moar hyperbole!'

MiB never disappoints.

So you're saying that it'd be reasonable to say, "If we abolished firefighters, we'd have fewer fires"?

Explain how ignoring racism makes it go away. It'll be magical.

Thanks for writing 'fewer' instead of 'less'.

Also, Fleshgrinder reminds me of myself a couple months ago when I was aping Ayn Rand. Naturally, I don't believe in her philosophy to the extent I marketed it in those posts, but it generated some great conversation.

I doubt Fleshgrinder so coherently believes in Kurzweil's arguments, either. But the last couple pages have been very interesting...great evidence that philosophy isn't dead.


You want me to justify an inane proposition that's so obvioulsy falls out of the scope of what I was saying as to make it absurd, and then defend words you put in my mouth?

It wouldn't be magical. It would be troll food.


It was always troll food Kryz. The split point for this digression was, "Once we all transplant our brains into synthetic bodies, racism won't be an issue." :P

(We do need a specific definition for "all," though.)


Ahh...
You got me.


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Hitdice wrote:

It was always troll food Kryz. The split point for this digression was, "Once we all transplant our brains into synthetic bodies, racism won't be an issue." :P

(We do need a specific definition for "all," though.)

Actually, from some of the comments it was more like racism won't be an issue because the new humans will be so far above the rest of you, we'll be justified in treating you like animals.


Fleshgrinder wrote:

Here's a question:

Does it really matter who the racists are right now?

What is the one constant of the universe? Change.

Things change.

Every political party will decay. Every country will fall. Every species will go extinct(though many will be replaced by their evolutionary descendants).

So, with this is mind, why argue with so much vitriol about the minutia?

The US won't exist eventually, so why be all too concerned about its health now? It's a temporary configuration of borders. Arbitrary lines drawn on a map.

As is race.

Your race is temporary. It likely hasn't existed for THAT long in the genetic configuration you have. The colours and ethnicities that exist today won't exist eventually, so why get your nose bent out of shape based on less than a 0.004% genetic difference between you and any other human?

I dunno. I just find this whole argument to be born of a weird misunderstanding of the nature of the universe.

Easy with the Kurzweil!

I would like to say that borders and culture are very important. You are right, things do change. Will things change for the better or will mankind be plunged into a dark age?
In my opinion, its clear to see that mankind developed a culture in the cradle of western civilation close to 3000 years ago that we reap the fruits of its labor today.
The US and other nations that have carried the torch of European culture alight are the grandchildren of what the ancients set forth. Without them what would our political world look like? I thank God that we live in a world that holds true the rule of law.

Race you say? The traditons passed on by our American ancestors/forefathers have deep roots in European civilization. If those people disapeared, the ones who hold those ideas dear and instead have humans with the mind set of a fundamentalist muslim fanatic, Chinese communist or a central American dictator you will have destroyed a culture that holds freedom & liberty as paramount for all humanity.

I believe that if European culture never existed the world would be dominated by the worst kind of 3rd world politics & inhumanity. Our culture matters, our traditions matter. We should preserve them.


A Man In Black wrote:
I'm sure if you think about it, you'll eventually figure it out. In the meantime, enjoy posting your BUT THE LIBERALS ARE THE REAL RACISTS whitenoise.

To answer the assertions & give my opinion:

Liberals general believe that people should perpetually be dependent on government assistance. How else can they get elected? Specifically in the black community and more recently in the latino community.

Its working out pretty s%$*ty for the tax payers and those on the gov't teet if you ask me. I believe people can make it on their own and aspire to be self sufficient well away from government hand outs. What do you call an ideology that thinks contrary to that? (whitenoise on)


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Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
I'm sure if you think about it, you'll eventually figure it out. In the meantime, enjoy posting your BUT THE LIBERALS ARE THE REAL RACISTS whitenoise.

To answer the assertions & give my opinion:

Liberals general believe that people should perpetually be dependent on government assistance. How else can they get elected? Specifically in the black community and more recently in the latino community.

I do not kow if that represent the "left" in the US, but it seems like a big exageration.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Quote:
If those people disapeared, the ones who hold those ideas dear and instead have humans with the mind set of a fundamentalist muslim fanatic, Chinese communist or a central American dictator you will have destroyed a culture that holds freedom & liberty as paramount for all humanity.

Dude, you are a racist. I don't know how else to put it. If you honestly think that an Arab, Asian, or, um, American person can't appreciate the benefits of democracy, then you're just a plain old straight up racist.

Aretas wrote:

To answer the assertions & give my opinion:

Liberals general believe that people should perpetually be dependent on government assistance.

This is false. (Well, aside from the basic services that government can handle better for nearly everyone, like roads, police, healthcare, etc.) From this insane assertion, all subsequent craziness flows.


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Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
I'm sure if you think about it, you'll eventually figure it out. In the meantime, enjoy posting your BUT THE LIBERALS ARE THE REAL RACISTS whitenoise.

To answer the assertions & give my opinion:

Liberals general believe that people should perpetually be dependent on government assistance. How else can they get elected? Specifically in the black community and more recently in the latino community.

Its working out pretty s&&%ty for the tax payers and those on the gov't teet if you ask me. I believe people can make it on their own and aspire to be self sufficient well away from government hand outs. What do you call an ideology that thinks contrary to that? (whitenoise on)

I've never understood why this criticism of liberals is never made by outsiders without pairing with the "equally true" belief that conservatives couldn't get elected if it weren't for all the ignorant poor racists who believe that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.


cranewings wrote:
Aretas wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
I'm sure if you think about it, you'll eventually figure it out. In the meantime, enjoy posting your BUT THE LIBERALS ARE THE REAL RACISTS whitenoise.

To answer the assertions & give my opinion:

Liberals general believe that people should perpetually be dependent on government assistance. How else can they get elected? Specifically in the black community and more recently in the latino community.

Its working out pretty s&&%ty for the tax payers and those on the gov't teet if you ask me. I believe people can make it on their own and aspire to be self sufficient well away from government hand outs. What do you call an ideology that thinks contrary to that? (whitenoise on)

I've never understood why this criticism of liberals is never made by outsiders without pairing with the "equally true" belief that conservatives couldn't get elected if it weren't for all the ignorant poor racists who believe that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

Because this criticism of liberals is never made by outsiders?

It's made by conservative true believers. Or political operatives working for Republicans.


A Man In Black wrote:
Quote:
If those people disapeared, the ones who hold those ideas dear and instead have humans with the mind set of a fundamentalist muslim fanatic, Chinese communist or a central American dictator you will have destroyed a culture that holds freedom & liberty as paramount for all humanity.

Dude, you are a racist. I don't know how else to put it. If you honestly think that an Arab, Asian, or, um, American person can't appreciate the benefits of democracy, then you're just a plain old straight up racist.

Aretas wrote:

To answer the assertions & give my opinion:

Liberals general believe that people should perpetually be dependent on government assistance.
This is false. (Well, aside from the basic services that government can handle better for nearly everyone, like roads, police, healthcare, etc.) From this insane assertion, all subsequent craziness flows.

B%*&***@. Its not racist. I'm looking all over the globe and I see governments and nations turning to tyranny or religious fundamentalism.

Example: Gaza strip (arabs) They had a Democratic election that ushered in Hamas! HAMAS!
The Arab spring was to bring about Democracy to the Arab world from the clutches or tyrants right? What happened, the muslim brotherhood takes over and says they will usher in Sharia law.
Tyrants in south & central America, Asia, southeast Asia, Africa, rule of law everywhere in the world takes the back seat and the rise of totalitarian dictators is the norm.
You think its racist but the world immitates European culture, the rule of law as its foundation. Further more everywhere Europeans have gone they planted those seeds.


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Aretas wrote:
I'm looking all over the globe and I see governments and nations turning to tyranny or religious fundamentalism.

(cough) Not that the Patriot Act, National Defense Authorization Act, massive expenditure on faith-based initiatives with tax dollars, and unending contests among presidential candidates as to who's the most Christian have any relevance here...

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

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Aretas wrote:
B~@$@$*+. Its not racist. I'm looking all over the globe and I see governments and nations turning to tyranny or religious fundamentalism.

For example, the US? (I kid.)

Quote:

Example: Gaza strip (arabs) They had a Democratic election that ushered in Hamas! HAMAS!

The Arab spring was to bring about Democracy to the Arab world from the clutches or tyrants right? What happened, the muslim brotherhood takes over and says they will usher in Sharia law.

Yeah, the worst part of democracy is that people elect the government they want. There's this funny idea that democracy naturally leads immediately to freer governments (paralleling the idea that everyone in a capitalist economy is a rational actor, incidentally). But, you know, it happens? France and England both went through extremist phases in transitioning to democracy, and neither of those are hellish totalitarian theocracies.

Quote:
Tyrants in south & central America, Asia, southeast Asia, Africa, rule of law everywhere in the world takes the back seat and the rise of totalitarian dictators is the norm.

Name one! Seriously, name one. I guarantee you that your example is going to be a totalitarian government that came into power after overthrowing another totalitarian government or after a government was overthrown by outside powers (it's not really fair to ask why more countries aren't democratic when their democratically-elected governments are overthrown by outside powers).

Quote:

You think its racist but the world immitates European culture, the rule of law as its foundation. Further more everywhere Europeans have gone they planted those seeds.

You keep saying you're not a racist, but then you say things like that. Take a look at this:

Quote:
[Europeans] have produced things like... the Renaissance, our European law codes, habeus corpus, the legal right to representation and defense no matter the crime, the right to autonomy and self-governance... We - that is, whites, those people you state have no culture? - have Beethovan, Bach, Wagner, Mozart, Michalengelo, Leonardo, Botticelli ... All of modern medicine, sanitation, hygene also falls at our feet. (The Romans - whites - had plumbing 3000years ago, while Africans can't dig a well to this day and need whites to do it for them)

Guess where this is from:
Stormfront.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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You know what, we're done here. I'm not sure what this thread was about in the first place, but I'm pretty sure that arguing who is a rascist and why government is evil aren't it.

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