I have this idea for a character where I would combine ninja monk or rouge monk how should I do it, I want to be able to flurry and deal sneak attack damage a lot I'm thinking 3lvl rouge 17th lvl monk so I deal 2d8+2d6SA for 7 attacks if all attacks hit I could deal between 23-59 damage vs between14-40, what do you think? How should I progress, more levels in rouge/ninja maybe?
I'll tell you how mine goes when I'm done. I was planning on 10/10 between ninja/monk so I could have all the jumping benefits from ninja coupled with those of the monk. Don't want to fight with unarmed so I was thinking Sohei monk archetype and pick a weapon but the threads on the Sohei are so full of broken rage. Won't get the full benefits of the fast movement ending at +30 for for 10th level but I can deal with a base move of 60ft and being able to jump just as far and high.
Fixed misspelling in title.
Liz Courts wrote: Fixed misspelling in title. Shame on you, and here I had these grand ideas about a serious conversation about monks and their monastic training in the art of make-up.
Ontopic:
You're better of going Ninja, then go for TWF, as it will put you close to the same amount of attacks with no loss in sneak attack damage, as well as more ninja tricks up your sleeve.
4 levels of rogue
- two talents (fast stealth, bleed), uncanny dodge, 2d6 sneak, trap abilities
16 Monk (use monk robes for maximum damage and AC bonus)
Str 10
Dex 15 (+2 human)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 10
Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvres, Improved Initiative, Grapple and Trip feats, Combat Reflexes, Toughness etc
Maximise stealth, acrobatics, perception and disable devices for a fast stealthy scout who can detect and disarm traps with ease
Get Amulet of Mighty Fists (or weapon) with Agile for Dex damage
if sneak attack, would you be willing to try a sohei of many styles/vivisectionist?
ninja > rogue for this concept IMHO. more synergy with the ki pool stuff and invisibility (vanish). I'd take an archtype for monk like hungry ghost, or weapon master
also at 20th, 2d8+2d6(sometimes) per hit isnt too great. you'll need a lot more tricks to be a viable threat to thing
not Sohehi and vivesectionest yes, maybe but more likely ninja or rouge
Name Violation wrote: ninja > rogue for this concept IMHO. more synergy with the ki pool stuff and invisibility (vanish). I'd take an archtype for monk like hungry ghost, or weapon master
also at 20th, 2d8+2d6(sometimes) per hit isnt too great. you'll need a lot more tricks to be a viable threat to thing
I would ussualy be flanking with a fighter or barbarian so I would always get the +2d6 or at least try to.
I'd go for a lower Monk level, say 15th level monk, and 5th level rogue. 5th level rogue get's you 3d6 per SA, and at 15th level, you can have a monk's robe to give you the 20th level monk perks.
should I do Zen archer, I don't think so but what do you guys think?
mdt wrote: I'd go for a lower Monk level, say 15th level monk, and 5th level rogue. 5th level rogue get's you 3d6 per SA, and at 15th level, you can have a monk's robe to give you the 20th level monk perks. This simple brown robe, when worn, confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus. nothing about increasing flurry damage or attacks
Yep, like I said, your monk perks. Boosted AC and Damage. You're going to want the robe anyway, even if you take 3 levels of rogue only. You might as well get full benefit from it, having the AC and Damage of a level 20 monk. The extra D6 of SA and the rogue talent will more than make up for the one lost attack you lose from not hitting 17, and the 16th and 17th level monk abilities really aren't that good, in the end. Flavorful, but not huge mechanically. And I think you might lose one BAB, but I'm not sure.
As to Zen Archer, no, that would be the worst possible route to go with rogue/monk. You don't get your sneak attack on ranged attacks unless you catch people flat footed, or once per combt. Much better off in combat flanking with someone.
since you're cool with the vivisectionist, may I lead you to my blog?
Interesting Squawk, I might use it also could you flurry greatcleave?
oh god. I never thought of that. Not sure.
boo. you can't
"Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and also within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn."
Ramza Wyvernjack wrote: Liz Courts wrote: Fixed misspelling in title. Shame on you, and here I had these grand ideas about a serious conversation about monks and their monastic training in the art of make-up.
Ontopic:
You're better of going Ninja, then go for TWF, as it will put you close to the same amount of attacks with no loss in sneak attack damage, as well as more ninja tricks up your sleeve. TWF uses to many feats and you get to big minuses, thanks though
Name Violation wrote: ninja > rogue for this concept IMHO. more synergy with the ki pool stuff and invisibility (vanish). I'd take an archtype for monk like hungry ghost, or weapon master
also at 20th, 2d8+2d6(sometimes) per hit isnt too great. you'll need a lot more tricks to be a viable threat to thing
Problem with Ninja is the Charisma demands
- the benefit of the Rogue path is being able to remove one of the MAD aspects (dropping STR) rather than adding another
- the Ki doesn't completely stack as you only choose one stat to use for determining the amount
so what would you sugest?
So rouge monk or vivsectionist monk?
mdt wrote: I'd go for a lower Monk level, say 15th level monk, and 5th level rogue. 5th level rogue get's you 3d6 per SA, and at 15th level, you can have a monk's robe to give you the 20th level monk perks. Rogue 5 gives an extra d6 of sneak attack, but misses a BAB point
You could even use 10/10 and take the feat that allows for half your non-monk levels to count toward unarmed damage
The problem with dropping too many Monk levels however is the loss of BAB and the additional Flurry Attack
Worth Noting though, you can Flurry/Cleaving Finish.
I believe thats what its called.
It depends on what you want really. The rogue would allow for better sneak attacks as well aas becoming a skill monkey. the vivisectionist would allow for mutagen-based development and spells.
ayronc wrote: Name Violation wrote: ninja > rogue for this concept IMHO. more synergy with the ki pool stuff and invisibility (vanish). I'd take an archtype for monk like hungry ghost, or weapon master
also at 20th, 2d8+2d6(sometimes) per hit isnt too great. you'll need a lot more tricks to be a viable threat to thing
Problem with Ninja is the Charisma demands
- the benefit of the Rogue path is being able to remove one of the MAD aspects (dropping STR) rather than adding another
- the Ki doesn't completely stack as you only choose one stat to use for determining the amount
There is no demand on CHA for a ninja if you have another class that has a ki pool.
PRD wrote: Ki Pool (Su): At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja's ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows).
By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
Drop charisma, bump wisdom which synergies with other monk abilities and you're set. Stat yourself as a monk as that's what you are and you still get the full ki pool that a 20 monk would have using ninja.
I have to say rouge so I'm less MAD, otherwise I'd need 4 high stats.
ok Ninja monk it is, know for weapons (probably my hands and a ranged weapon) and feats
how is rogue reducing MAD?
lol. Flurry with a large katana. XD
Khrysaor wrote: There is no demand on CHA for a ninja if you have another class that has a ki pool.
But the DCs for the Ninja tricks and various other specialties of the Ninja are based on Charisma, making it still important.
Khrysaor wrote: how is rogue reducing MAD? By giving enough extra synergy with Dexterity to allow the dumping of Strength to focus on Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers to allow Dex based attacks. Combine this with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or Weapon and the damage is based off Dex also.
The traditional problem with Monks is their need for Strength for to hit and damage, Dexterity for AC, acrobatics and stealth, Constitution for survival (as a melee class) and Wisdom for their AC, stunning fist DC, ki pool etc. It makes it difficult for them to focus on any one stat without sacrificing some other aspect of their abilities.
The Rogue adds extra benefit for Dex justifying more focus on this area and the sneak attack damage can somewhat compensate for the loss of Strength damage until an "Agile" solution can be found.
Khrysaor wrote: how is rogue reducing MAD? I won't need CHA
ayronc wrote: Khrysaor wrote: There is no demand on CHA for a ninja if you have another class that has a ki pool.
But the DCs for the Ninja tricks and various other specialties of the Ninja are based on Charisma, making it still important.
Khrysaor wrote: how is rogue reducing MAD? By giving enough extra synergy with Dexterity to allow the dumping of Strength to focus on Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers to allow Dex based attacks. Combine this with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or Weapon and the damage is based off Dex also.
You can use weppon finese with unarmed attacks?
Yes you can. It counts as a Light Weapon.
ayronc wrote: Khrysaor wrote: There is no demand on CHA for a ninja if you have another class that has a ki pool.
But the DCs for the Ninja tricks and various other specialties of the Ninja are based on Charisma, making it still important.
Khrysaor wrote: how is rogue reducing MAD? By giving enough extra synergy with Dexterity to allow the dumping of Strength to focus on Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers to allow Dex based attacks. Combine this with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or Weapon and the damage is based off Dex also.
The traditional problem with Monks is their need for Strength for to hit and damage, Dexterity for AC, acrobatics and stealth, Constitution for survival (as a melee class) and Wisdom for their AC, stunning fist DC, ki pool etc. It makes it difficult for them to focus on any one stat without sacrificing some other aspect of their abilities.
The Rogue adds extra benefit for Dex justifying more focus on this area and the sneak attack damage can somewhat compensate for the loss of Strength damage until an "Agile" solution can be found. A ninja is the alternate class of the rogue. Saying the rogue provides a bonus infers that the ninja does the same. The build suggested so far was Ninja5/Monk15. You will only have 2 ninja talents naturally without burning feats for them so you shouldn't be taking ones that are going to be CHA dependant as he's going to be a monk. He wants to have mobility so he'll probably end up with Acrobatics Master and High Jumper which synergy with your monk abilities and provide a greater mobility for jumping obstacles or leaping on top of buildings.
Unless there's a way of getting an Agile enchantment on your fists he's going to do so on a monk weapon to make dex the most useful. As long as it's a light weapon he can get Piranha strike. If not he's going to need 13 str for power attack.
The better argument on class will be the flavor of the class traits you'd want.
Ninja: Poison Use, Ki pool, No Trace 1, Uncanny Dodge, 3d6 SA
Rogue: Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense 1, Uncanny Dodge, 3d6 SA
Are you the guy who likes to cover your tracks and have the ability to apply poisons without a chance of poisoning yourself;
OR
Are you the guy who is good at avoiding traps and danger in general.
Only problem is that you get evasion and improved evasion as a monk so the rogue is only offering the traps over what the ninja offers. You can take all the rogue talents as a ninja and vice versa so those aren't that big a deal.
Khrysaor wrote: The better argument on class will be the flavor of the class traits you'd want.
Ninja: Poison Use, Ki pool, No Trace 1, Uncanny Dodge, 3d6 SA
Rogue: Trapfinding, Evasion, Trap Sense 1, Uncanny Dodge, 3d6 SA
Are you the guy who likes to cover your tracks and have the ability to apply poisons without a chance of poisoning yourself;
OR
Are you the guy who is good at avoiding traps and danger in general.
Only problem is that you get evasion and improved evasion as a monk so the rogue is only offering the traps over what the ninja offers. You can take all the rogue talents as a ninja and vice versa so those aren't that big a deal.
The first probably, although not so much poison.
Take a look at some other rogue archetypes as well since you can trade out trap finding for some real cool perks as well. Since ninja won't have access to these as he has the poison use/no trace abilities. There are some other fun options to make rogue a good choice, just don't assume ninja doesn't provide anything. Chameleon is good for stealth.
Isn't their a monk ki ability where your fists can deal piercing damage?
For Rogue, if you're not going poisoner, I'd suggest Acrobat. +2 to acrobatics checks when you aren't wearing armor (flight also, but who cares). Plus if you do wear armor, you negate the armor check penalties to the acrobatics check.
Plus at level 5 (if you're going five levels of rogue) then you get to reroll your acrobatics check at a -5 whenever you make an acrobatics check, a big boon to a monk who's bouncing around combat fields avoiding AoO's.
If you take 4 levels of the Sensei monk archetype (so you qualify for the monk ki pool) before going into Ninja, you're effectively a single attribute character that can throw everything into wisdom:
These are now based on your wisdom:
To hit (Sensei)
Ninja and Monk Ki pools
AC (Monk)
Will Saves
Stunning Fist DCs
prototype00
Run, Just Run wrote: Isn't their a monk ki ability where your fists can deal piercing damage? The snake style feat does this and some other really cool stuff vs ranged attackers.
I would look how you can play this while you are getting to lvl 20.
There are some nice ninja tricks enhancing improved unarmed strike and its damage. Also the feat monastic legacy is nice. Combined with monk robes and the right ninja tricks you can get higher damage as a monk^^
Going ninja just to get sneak attack is not the best way i think.
If so i would take more ninja levels to get some milage out of it.
Level 10 invisible blade for example.
A halfling ZenArcher monk/ninja can be a fine thing too actually, just to add.
what about feats other then snake style?
I like rogues but in this case a ninja fit better.
You gain evasion from the monk level so you lost half of the benefits of 2nd level rogue, also ninja have ki pool (choose wisdom as key ability for the ki pool).
do not do TWF you already have flurry of blows.
do not dump Str, you add the Str modif to all atacks whenyou use furry of blows.
Nicos wrote: I like rogues but in this case a ninja fit better.
You gain evasion from the monk level so you lost half of the benefits of 2nd level rogue, also ninja have ki pool (choose wisdom as key ability for the ki pool).
do not do TWF you already have flurry of blows.
do not dump Str, you add the Str modif to all atacks whenyou use furry of blows.
I won't dump str entierly 12 or 14 but SA also rouge (knifemaster) because of Sneak stab change SA die to d8 for P weppons, with snake style I deal P damage, but ninja is good to, do you think I should go ninja still? I was not going to TWF I was going unarmed
Run, Just Run wrote: Nicos wrote: I like rogues but in this case a ninja fit better.
You gain evasion from the monk level so you lost half of the benefits of 2nd level rogue, also ninja have ki pool (choose wisdom as key ability for the ki pool).
do not do TWF you already have flurry of blows.
do not dump Str, you add the Str modif to all atacks whenyou use furry of blows.
I won't dump str entierly 12 or 14 but SA also rouge (knifemaster) because of Sneak stab change SA die to d8 for P weppons, with snake style I deal P damage, but ninja is good to, do you think I should go ninja still? I was not going to TWF I was going unarmed Yes. I like rogues, especiall Knifemaster/scout, but i think that a rnija/monk is a better multiclass, because you add the ninja levels to the ki pool, and more ki means more extra attack which means more SA.
what style should I go i.e. crane, snake, boar... also other feats.
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