I don't think this is so much a matter of 'martials can't have nice things' as 'monks shouldn't ever wear armour'.
Both of those opinions are pretty dumb, in my opinion.
I think it's more like "Here's this guy in a mithril breastplate, shield, and wielding a scimitar with a tougher horse then a cavalier, as many attacks as a TWF without ever taking a feat, better saves than any martial class out of the box, and can shoot better than the dedicated archers. Oh and by the way, he's a monk."
I don't think it's a matter of martials having nice things or monks not wearing armor, I think it's more the idea that one guy effortlessly has all the cakes and gorges on them.
I've honestly found the wording of Sohei dubious since ever and now that people are finding more and more out of them by simply reading them I can finally stop feeling like the only madman in the madhouse.
Horse tougher than the cavalier? Very debatable. As many attacks as a TWF? Only if he stays straight monk. Better than a dedicated archer? Only if he takes all the archery feats and waits until 12th level (since he's using a scimitar and all). But yes, he has nice saves.
Nah. Fighter 19/Monk 1 gets to flurry with 7 attacks. Use Monk levels + other class B.A.B. to determine a monk's effective B.A.B. while flurrying.
I'll look for the FAQ post.
Here we go
Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.
—Sean K Reynolds, 09/10/10
Emphasis/formatting mine.
So there it is; Dipping monk: Better than you thought, since 2000.
OH HAI THAR!
BARDICSCIMITARPOUNCE!
Horse tougher than the cavalier?
If he does as Mike suggested adn take those four levels of cavalier then horse master? Done. We can go Gendarme while im at it and pick up a bonus feat or two. We've got to get that shield proficiency from somewhere. :D
So a TWF gets about 7 attacks right?
Spend a ki point? 8. We can take medusas wrath for nine.
But what about melee feats? Well power attack was free with gendarme so I guess we can spare a whole lot of feats on archery.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
He can flurry with a +20 BAB, that's not the question. The text is quite clear when he gets the extra attacks, however and that is tied to monk level.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
If that's how you want to interpret it then tons of archetypes are broken as tons of abilities refer to a class by name. Pretty sure that's not how it works.
No just figured you meant some other weird interpretation. Disregard it.
As for the rest that will have to wait as im running out the door. The actual build itself has been together for a while.
Example of why high-level "trump" arguments are tedious exercises in moving goalpost fallacies:I admit I am a noob when it comes to opt a character... but how does a Wizard create 3 pet Solars? lol Is that something they can do... seriously?"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder WizardWell, for starters, he could say that he's taken Leadership for a wizard cohort specialized in pet solars just like yours. (And then, you the wizard, would say that you have taken Leadership too for a Sohei bodyguard; and, and, ad-nauseum.)
Yeah it is. My demo wizard Knot Opey has 2 11 HD solars whom he created via simulacrum, which is counted versus his NPC wealth. Simulacrums don't lose their racial features, so they retain the majority of their abilities, which means their angelic aura of good, continual true-seeing, spell-like abilities, etc. A common strategy for Knot Opey is to pop project image followed by ethereal jaunt which turns him Ethereal without breaking his LoS to his image, which allows him to cast spells through his image as if the image was himself, while being mostly immune to reprisal while his pet solars spam summon monster VII to summon celestial Tyrannosaurs into the battle.
He's a pretty tough fellow to beat actually. However, I think a player of mine has a Fighter that will probably kill him by the time they are about equal level. This is mostly because I've been training my players to prepare and handle crazy stuff like this. By the time he eventually faces Knot Opey (who I'm using as a BBEG at some point), the Fighter will probably have invested in a few short-range teleports, death ward armor, the ability to go ethereal, and probably a +1 net ghost touch net or two. I'm even pretty sure the Fighter will be able to shrug the combo of limited wish (-7 to next save) followed by flesh to stone.
If you're curious here he is.
Init +10, Perception +19
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AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 10
HP: 136, Init +10, AC 11
Fort +15, Ref +15, Will +15
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Scythe +10 (2d4+1/x4)
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Spells Prepared (DC 19 + Level)
8th (2+1) - Mind Blank, Persistent Flesh to Stone x2
7th (3+1) - Limited Wish x 1, Project Image x1, Ethereal Jaunt x1, Summon Monster VII
6th (4+1) - Flesh to Stone x2, Disintegrate x1, True Seeing x1, Acid Cloud
5th (6+1) - Telekinesis x3, Hold Monster x2, Wall of Stone x2
4th (6+1) - Black Tentacles x3, Bestow Curse x2, Dimensional Anchor x1, Globe of Invulnerability x1
3rd (6+1) - Gaseous Form x2, Ray of Exhaustion x2, Halt Undead x1, Displacement x1, Stinking Cloud
2nd (6+1) - Mirror Image x2, Glitterdust x2, Blur x1, Hideous Laughter x1, Web x1
1st (7+1) - Grease x6, Shield x1, Mage armor x1
Cantrips - Acid Splash, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic
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Feats - Improved Initiative, Spellcasting Prodigy, Scribe Scroll,
Heighten Spell, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration),
Toughness, Combat Defense Training, Craft Wondrous Item, Skill Focus (Stealth), Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes
Traits - Reactionary (+2 Initiative)
Traits - Heirloom Weapon (Scythe)
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Skills - Stealth +25, Spellcraft +27, Knowledge (arcana) +27, Knowledge (religion) +27, Knowledge (local) +27, Linguistics +27, Craft (Alchemy) +27, Perception +19, Bluff +16, Disguise +16, Survival +19
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Str 12, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 28, Wis 18, Cha 12
BAB +7, CMB +8, CMD 29
====================
Equipment - Scroll of Mage Armor, Scroll of Obscuring Mist, Scroll of Expeditious Retreat,
Scroll of Disguise Self, Spellbook, Spell Pouch, Acid Flask (2), Solar Simulacrums (2), 1500 gp diamonds (5),
true seeing oinment (4), Scroll of Ethereal Jaunt (2), Scroll of Project Image (2), Cloak of Displacement, Gloves of Dexterity +1, Amulet of Health +1, Headband of Wisdom +1, Cloak of Resistance +2
Solar CR (Included With Creator)
NG Large outsider (angel, extraplanar, good)
Init +9; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, detect evil, detect snares and pits, true seeing; Perception +33
Aura protective aura
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AC 44, touch 11, flat-footed 42 (+14 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge, +19 natural, -1 size; +4 deflection vs. evil)
hp 170 (11d10+110); regeneration 15 (evil artifacts, effects, and spells)
Fort +25, Ref +14, Will +23; +4 vs. poison, +4 resistance vs. evil
DR 15/epic and evil; Immune acid, cold, petrification; Resist electricity 10, fire 10; SR 34
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Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (good); 35 ft., fly 100 ft. (good) in armor
Melee +5 dancing greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 (3d6+18) or slam +30 (2d8+13)
Ranged +5 composite longbow (+9 Str bonus) +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+14 plus slaying arrow)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
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Spell-Like Abilities (CL 11th)
Constant—detect evil, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 21), true seeing
At Will—aid, animate objects, commune, continual flame, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), invisibility (self only), lesser restoration, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, resist energy, summon monster VII, speak with dead (DC 20), waves of fatigue
3/day—blade barrier (DC 23), earthquake (DC 25), heal, mass charm monster (DC 25), permanency, resurrection, waves of exhaustion
1/day—greater restoration, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic spray (DC 24), wish
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Spells Prepared (CL 20th)
9th—etherealness, mass heal, miracle, storm of vengeance (DC 27)
8th—fire storm (DC 26), holy aura (2) (DC 26), mass cure critical wounds (2)
7th—destruction (DC 25), dictum (DC 25), ethereal jaunt, holy word (DC 25), regenerate
6th—banishment (DC 24), heroes' feast, mass cure moderate wounds, undeath to death (DC 24), word of recall
5th—break enchantment, breath of life, dispel evil (DC 23), plane shift (DC 23), righteous might, symbol of sleep (DC 23)
4th—cure critical wounds (3), death ward, dismissal (DC 22), neutralize poison (2) (DC 22)
3rd—cure serious wounds, daylight, invisibility purge, magic circle against evil, prayer, protection from energy, wind wall
2nd—align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, consecrate, cure moderate wounds (2), eagle's splendor
1st—bless, cure light wounds (3), divine favor, entropic shield, shield of faith
0 (at will)—detect magic, purify food and drink, stabilize, virtue
============================
Str 28, Dex 20, Con 30, Int 23, Wis 27, Cha 25
Base Atk +11; CMB +32; CMD 47
============================
Feats Cleave, Deadly Aim, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Toughness
============================
Skills Craft (any one) +31, Diplomacy +32, Fly +32, Knowledge (history) +31, Knowledge (nature) +31, Knowledge (planes) +31, Knowledge (religion) +31, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +31, Stealth +21, Survival +31
============================
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ change shape (alter self)
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Special Abilities
Spells Solars can cast divine spells as 20th-level clerics. They do not gain access to domains or other cleric abilities.
Slaying Arrow (Su) A solar's bow needs no ammunition, and automatically creates a slaying arrow of the solar's choice when drawn.
If you want to just be a huge douche, you can make simulacrums of the Terrasque. It's very difficult to kill, so having one named Fido that follows your commands is pretty handy sometimes. While his HD are drastically lower, the regeneration and immunities mean you probably won't need to replace it often. :P
Horse tougher than the cavalier?If he does as Mike suggested adn take those four levels of cavalier then horse master? Done. We can go Gendarme while im at it and pick up a bonus feat or two. We've got to get that shield proficiency from somewhere. :D
So a TWF gets about 7 attacks right?
Spend a ki point? 8. We can take medusas wrath for nine.
But what about melee feats? Well power attack was free with gendarme so I guess we can spare a whole lot of feats on archery.
Cavalier 4 Monk 4 vs Cavalier 8 animal companions
4 HD and up to 16+8xwis mod (on a monk designed to dump wisdom, as mentioned above) vs 7 HD. The 7 HD has +2 to BAB and +1 to all saves. The sohei gets 1+wis AC bonus, and +2 to saves vs enchantment.You wont be able to flurry until lvl 10 with a weapon if you go for all 4 cavalier levels before 6 in Monk. You wont be able to do it with a bow until 18.
Medusas Wrath is expensive. With your feats replaced with mounted combat ones, you no longer qualify without the prereqs. Guess you are spending 3 feats on that line and working to make sure they are disable without the use of Stunning Fist, which you gave up.
Overall, color me unimpressed.
Cavalier 4 Monk 4 vs Cavalier 8 animal companions
See: Horse Master.
You wont be able to flurry until lvl 10 with a weapon if you go for all 4 cavalier levels before 6 in Monk. You wont be able to do it with a bow until 18.
You can start out with a nice temple sword, and work your way up to the Nodachi. Most people will probably go Sohei 8/Cavalier 4/Weapon Master 3, giving you flurries with your preferred ranged and melee weapons (along with full mount, great saves, ki, etc) by level 15.
Medusas Wrath is expensive. With your feats replaced with mounted combat ones, you no longer qualify without the prereqs. Guess you are spending 3 feats on that line and working to make sure they are disable without the use of Stunning Fist, which you gave up.
It isn't at all clear how the bonus feats work. The way it is written, without defining "bonus feat," implies the normal text remains. Although, if this is true, it makes things a little TOO ridiculous (Level 1 is a wee bit too early for Mounted Skirmisher).
Is this the Munchkining competition?
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Example of why high-level "trump" arguments are tedious exercises in moving goalpost fallacies:I admit I am a noob when it comes to opt a character... but how does a Wizard create 3 pet Solars? lol Is that something they can do... seriously?"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder WizardWell, for starters, he could say that he's taken Leadership for a wizard cohort specialized in pet solars just like yours. (And then, you the wizard, would say that you have taken Leadership too for a Sohei bodyguard; and, and, ad-nauseum.)Yeah it is. My demo wizard Knot Opey has 2 11 HD solars whom he created via simulacrum, which is counted versus his NPC wealth. Simulacrums don't lose their racial features, so they retain the majority of their abilities, which means their angelic aura of good, continual true-seeing, spell-like abilities, etc. A common strategy for Knot Opey is to pop project image followed by ethereal jaunt which turns him Ethereal without breaking his LoS to his image, which allows him to cast spells through his image as if the image was himself, while being mostly immune to reprisal while his pet solars spam summon monster VII to summon celestial Tyrannosaurs into the battle.
He's a pretty tough fellow to beat actually. However, I think a player of mine has a Fighter that will probably kill him by the time they are about equal level. This is mostly because I've been training my players to prepare and handle crazy stuff like this. By the time he eventually faces Knot Opey (who I'm using as a BBEG at some point), the Fighter will probably have invested in a few short-range teleports, death...
I honestly do not know what to say... I am impressed to say the least. i will take sometime to look this over, I tend to play gishes and more melee types never done straight caster... very nice tactics by the way.
If you want to just be a huge douche, you can make simulacrums of the Terrasque. It's very difficult to kill, so having one named Fido that follows your commands is pretty handy sometimes. While his HD are drastically lower, the regeneration and immunities mean you probably won't need to replace it often. :P
Assuming your GM let you create one. Not all will, y'know.
I only let the druid turn into standard animals, creatures she's encountered enough to understand, and creatures she's researched thoroughly. Not anything the player might happen to find in a Bestiary.
OH HAI THAR!
Run and save yourselves, i'll tank the menace. We need some CAPS to put the beast down...
Really though its a good enabler, of they let it flurry in armour its no nicer than the toys some other classes get. I think if they just limited it to light armour the archtype gives up enough wearing armour to gain the ability to flurry in it.
Edit: also mounted monk/cav/magus with a shield, full plate, flurry/ki point/haste/spellstrike with mounted skirmisher on a flying mount... Interesting.
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So let me get this straight. I'm a level 10 Lore Warden, 2 Maneuver Master Sohei.
Since Sohei's flurry with a weapon they have weapon training in, and I get that from my fighter levels, I can flurry with my Fauchard 2 handed? And the discussion is stating that flurry is not tied to monk level, but level total? So two extra attacks? Is this correct?
No and No, and No.
You need the sixth level Sohei ability to flurry with a weapon that you have weapon training in -- and you have to have the ability to flurry which you plainly don't have if you are a maneuver master.
In addition you don't get the second extra attack from flurrying until monk level 8 (which you also don't have).
I honestly do not know what to say... I am impressed to say the least. i will take sometime to look this over, I tend to play gishes and more melee types never done straight caster... very nice tactics by the way.Example of why high-level "trump" arguments are tedious exercises in moving goalpost fallacies:I admit I am a noob when it comes to opt a character... but how does a Wizard create 3 pet Solars? lol Is that something they can do... seriously?"Yes, I think this is waaaaaaaay unbalanced! Far to powerful for this game, and it obviously overshadows all of the other classes in its sheer awesomeness. I mean, what are people like me and my three pet Solars - which I created myself - supposed to do against something that flurries in armor!?" - Any Core Pathfinder WizardWell, for starters, he could say that he's taken Leadership for a wizard cohort specialized in pet solars just like yours. (And then, you the wizard, would say that you have taken Leadership too for a Sohei bodyguard; and, and, ad-nauseum.)Yeah it is. My demo wizard Knot Opey has 2 11 HD solars whom he created via simulacrum, which is counted versus his NPC wealth. Simulacrums don't lose their racial features, so they retain the majority of their abilities, which means their angelic aura of good, continual true-seeing, spell-like abilities, etc. A common strategy for Knot Opey is to pop project image followed by ethereal jaunt which turns him Ethereal without breaking his LoS to his image, which allows him to cast spells through his image as if the image was himself, while being mostly immune to reprisal while his pet solars spam summon monster VII to summon celestial Tyrannosaurs into the battle.
He's a pretty tough fellow to beat actually. However, I think a player of mine has a Fighter that will probably kill him by the time they are about equal level. This is mostly because I've been training my players to prepare and handle crazy stuff like this. By the time he eventually faces Knot Opey (who I'm using as a BBEG at some point), the Fighter will probably have invested in a few short-range teleports...
Heh, thanks. ^-^
I'm also a big fan of gishes and martial characters. My last several characters have been a Fighter, a Paladin, a Cleric (martial/undead focused), and Psychic Warrior (w/homebrew class mods). They can be tons of fun.
Tactics are kind of a favorite past time of mine. I tend to train my players in tactics without letting them know it. People learn through seeing, so my NPCs (who are often weaker than the party statistically) will demonstrate good tactics, which the party naturally sees in use and will begin to emulate. By the time I have a group reach 20th level, they are usually good and ready to handle the challenges and such that will face them, because of the meat-grinder they've already overcome to get there. I can always tell when people have had a inexperienced or coddling GM or just jumped into high levels, because they get steamrolled in my games. :P
But yeah. The above wizard is actually beatable. Especially by a party that is prepared for anything (a worthy goal of every high level character/party). However, Knot Opey (get the pun, his name is pronounced "Not OP") was generated because a few new players in one of my online games were saying martial characters were overpowered and that wizards and such were underpowered. Thus far, nobody has beaten Knot Opey in one of our mock matches, so I made an X-Box style achievement for beating him 1 on 1 under the conditions specified. I also made another achievement for beating a 20th level wizard, since they have access to goodies like time stop and disjunction. The Achievements are called "To Kill A God" for the 15th level version and "Peer of the Seven True" for the 20th level one (the reference is to my campaign world that has seven true gods that created the world).
Right, so to access flurry, you would need the sohei Weapon Training, not weapon training in general.
Yes, but Sohei Weapon Training opens up Flurrying to any weapon you have access to through Weapon Training in general.
Bow Monk Sohei
Rapid shot + Multishot + Flurry of bows = 7 attacks at level 12 before ki points are even spent or haste is used.
PFS legal too...
Except the part where its level twelve.
Except the part where its level twelve.
6 attacks at level 8 before haste or ki points are spent isn't bad either...
It doesn't say anywhere that the Sohei can make flurry of blows while wearing armor. So congrats, you're class isn't that rigged again. He's simply proficient with light armor...
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It doesn't say anywhere that the Sohei can make flurry of blows while wearing armor. So congrats, you're class isn't that rigged again. He's simply proficient with light armor...
It also doesn't say a monk can flurry while wearing a hat.
It doesn't say anywhere that the Sohei can make flurry of blows while wearing armor. So congrats, you're class isn't that rigged again. He's simply proficient with light armor...It also doesn't say a monk can flurry while wearing a hat.
Or with a handlebar mustache.
Still on the topic of Sohei, if he was wearing armor, he'd also lose his Ac bonus (plus wisdom). To be honest, sohei doesn't seem that great when I look at any other martial class with a bow, sure extra attacks are great, but still your penalizing up at early levels. Also @Barber, monk couldn't get manyshot till ninth level, since you don't get a feat at eight.
Too bad they don't have an improvised weapon training group. I'd love to flurry of blows with literally anything. I'd also take throw anything and flurry of blows with cups, silver, my masterwork harp...
Also @Barber, monk couldn't get manyshot till ninth level, since you don't get a feat at eight.
"Ed McMahon Voice" You are correct sir!
Still on the topic of Sohei, if he was wearing armor, he'd also lose his Ac bonus (plus wisdom).
At low levels where it wouldn't be that great anyway this is an extremely minor concern.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Algodor, as the archetype currently stands the only thing Sohei loses while wearing armour is his wisdom to AC bonus and extra AC bonus. He can flurry because flurry has no text saying "cannot flurry in light armour."
I'd love to hear an errata on the subject. But under the monks armor and shield proficiency it does say:
Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
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Also since the Sohei loses stunning fist the only reason he has for really boosting his wisdom is either for the AC bonus or the Ki points. Considering that there are some fine armors out there and the mithral shield route to go with a long bow the Sohei can get away with having a lot less wisdom than other monks.
Wouldn't they also lose Evasion?
At 2nd level or higher, a monk can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.