Remember a rogue doesn't only sneak attack when flanking, they can also sneak attack anytime their opponent is denied DEX bonus...
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
Cross Narrow Surfaces/Uneven Ground
First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
Spells such as grease can cause checks that make cause enemies to lose Dex Bonus while moving through the grease...at Half speed...if they don't move they're not flat footed, but, then they're not closing either.
Also Blinded, and stunned creatures lose their Dex bonus.
If you have a rogue with a high UMD, a grease wand or glitterdust wand can really make a difference for them, or a multiclass sorc/rogue. How about a first turn ranged true strike sneak attack? Take the feat that lets you sneak attack from greater than 30feet and you're golden.
Is it as powerful as some of the others? Nope, but it sure can be fun, and the game is about having fun...well except for the people trying to WIN!
Gloves of weapon mastery (or whatever they're called) give +2 to weapon training.First off im sure your correct but can you explain why his weapon training gives him +6 bonus on attack and damage rolls with longbows? Shouldnt it only be +4?
Dayer is a master archer optimized for high attack and damage. Every arrow that lands promises more damage to the next, and he rarely misses. He laughs in the face of high hit points, high AC, and high damage reduction.
Enjoy!
Those babies are worth every penny for a fighter ;)
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I think the number one this to take out of this is that you need to think about RAI not just look at the RAW.
However if you DO decide on a RAI interpretation be prepared that others will not agree with you and that you are both equally right - unless someone is quoting RAW in which case they are 'right' in a very narrow (and unimportant) sense.
Unimportant depends on who you're talking to. I know many people whose games are run by RAW, and RAW is what matters if you're in PFS.
RAI Doesn't necessarily matter.
TOTALLY OFF TOPIC - I stopped playing Magic about 2 years ago except on an off. Mana burn I have no problem with but maximum life? *sigh*
You cant go above 50, IIRC.
interesting stuff on improved Perfect Strike.
Thanks for giving it a decent stab - more than I can do with my zero math-fu. My gut thinks you're right (and I think the rest of your post is on the money too)
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The Sohei archetype's armour and weapon proficiency replaces the core proficiency: that's what an archetype does.
The new proficiency is not additive because that's not how archetypes work. It outright replaces the old one; therefore the Sohei does not lose flurry of blows while wearing armour.
Proficiency is irrelevant.
-- The inability to Flurry while wearing armor is a mechanic of the Flurry of Blows monk class feature, which is unaltered in the Sohei archetype.
Sohei also acquires proficiency with all martial weapons -- you'll observe that he does not get the ability to Flurry with any of them save those which he selects in his Weapon Training group at 6th.
(It's bad enough that Sohei are better archers than Zen archers, but armor too? Gimme a break; the archetype is already broken enough as it is.)
The Sohei can flurry while in armour.Sohei does not modify the Flurry of Blows class ability, hence he cannot flurry in armor.
-- He simply has proficiency.
Ahem. Monks can Flurry in armor by RAW. I think the only things they lose are Fast Movement and Monk AC.
The D&D rules are TERRIBLY ambiguous. They could do with a proper rule book like Magic or something...I agree with you. Though I refuse to acknowledge the current edition of the official M:tG Rules. I'm still very bitter about the maximum amount of life, and the removal of Mana Burn. I dont play in tournaments, and I refuse to play with those two rules changes. > Yes, I have several decks focused on those two rules mechanics. lol.
D&D Rules are ambiguous, but the purpose they serve makes them often need to be interpreted like M:tG rules; so the vague rules end up needing to be read as though they were well defined. Thats often why they need errata.
Actually the claim that they put a maximum life limit is patently false as indicated by reading all entries in the comprehensive rules containing the word "life".
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I don't understand why you're being so hostile, but I'm aware that there may be errata one way or another. It's not necessarily going to go the way the original writer meant for it to go, as it's now out of his hands. Paizo should look at the archetype as a whole, and yes also at multiclassing capabilities. I don't think it's unbalanced, and you obviously do think so. Right now I believe the rules side with me, but as you point out, this game is fluid and ever-changing.
Also, relax.
I don´t even know what to say to this but I have given up on trying to convince people on using common sense as its a hopeless endeavour.
EDIT: (generally spoken of course)
Did you just say that's common sense to assume that they meant only melee attacks? Perhaps there is a reason why they didn't say melee attacks, HMMM, HMMM HMMM. Don't act like it's common sense, it's a bloody fantasy game.
Dotted
Some great builds on the first page of this thread. Can Bards get even close to the DPR of those monstrous Fighter and Zen Archer examples? Yeah, I know Bards bring a host of tricks and assets other than their own DPR. Just curious.
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Anyone care to mention the Inquisitor? Proficient in just about every ranged weapon under the sun, able to instantly buff their choice of attack or damage rolls (and change their mind as a swift action), plus the Bane ability for a free 2d6 (and unlike sneak attack, it works at any range regardless of flat-footedness) that becomes a free 4d6 later on. Now also figure in Cunning Initiative for an improved chance to get into position before the enemy, and the Inquisitor Spell List (which includes Wrath and True Strike).
Inquisitors may not get as good at archery as fighters or rangers, but they're at least up there with paladins and arguably better than bards (judgment's bonuses increase faster than bardic performance's), plus all the versatility of a divine caster.
Throwing my hat into the ring with a Zen Archer I recently completed and am very excited about.
Zen archers may not - MAY not - have as much offensive potential as some builds, but what they bring to the table is a complete package including a tremendous amount of survivability and versatility. This is the first character I've made apart from my Master Summoner that I would feel comfortable solo'ing an adventure with.
Attributes
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th)
Cha 8
Feats:
Human - Toughness
1st - Improved Initiative
Monk 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1 - Perfect Strike
Monk 1 - Precise Shot
Monk 2 - Weapon Focus: Longbow
Monk 2 - Point Blank Shot
3rd - Snake Style
Monk 3 - Point Blank Master
5th - Skill Focus: Sense Motive
Monk 6 - Improved Precise Shot
Monk 6 - Weapon Specialization: Longbow
7th - Defensive Combat Training
9th - Clustered Shots
Monk 10 - Improved Critical: Longbow
11th - Deadly Aim
13th - Critical Focus
Monk 14 - Shot on the Run
15th - Bleeding Critical
17th - Stunning Fist
Monk 18 - Pinpoint Targeting
19th - Touch of Serenity
Traits:
Deft Dodger (+1 Reflex saves)
Heart of Clay (+1 Fortitude saves)
Skills:
Acrobatics (Dex) - 1 / level
Craft: Bows (Int) - 1 / level
Perception (Wis) - 1 / level
Sense Motive (Wis) - 1 / level
Stealth (Dex) - 1 / level
Climb (Str) - 1 / 2 levels
Swim (Str) - 1 / 2 levels
Not listed are the many Monk abilties that make him so versatile, like the huge mobility boosts from movement, jumping and falling as well as the ability Dimension Door (Abundant Step). Remember you get a self-heal, Spell Resistance, a Death attack and other goodies along the way. Also not listed are the feats you either don't need that others do (Rapid Shot, Multishot) or the Feats you get under other names (SnapShot as Reflexive Shot).
One of the things I especially like about this build is the benefit of Snake Style, an option that was pointed out to me on this board and which I've put to good use. As an immediate action - which basically means once each round - you can make a Sense Motive check and use that as your Armor Class or touch Armor Class against an attack you are aware of.
To put that in perspective, at 5th level I have 5 ranks in Sense Motive, +3 for it being a class skill, +4 from Wisdom, +2 from Snake Style and +3 from Skill Focus which makes a skill check 1d20+17, giving me an effective AC at 5th level of 18-37 against 1 attack a round. Taking into account that a well-played archer is only rarely subject to more than 1 attack/round, that really makes up for a traditionally low AC, and compliments your high saves nicely.
Rogues CAN be viable archers. But not for a very long time and it requires MASSIVE investment. I'd estimate a "pull off time" of around 10th level. You basically need Shatter Defenses feat (without multiclassing out of rogue, cannot be obtained till 9th level, even if you magically had a ton of extra feats for the tree earlier than that). On top of the PBS/Precise/Rapid Shot threesome. And then a means to make foes shaken on a hit. Rake archetype will do it, among other methods. Even then, you're only able to make the magic happen against foes that can be intimidated.
Ninja can also become a good archer, pretty much instantly at level 10 when he gets the advanced trick to do improved invisibility. Before then, it's not plausible. After 10, it works on anyone w/o truee seeing, see invis, or the like.
There is another method, however, to make a rogue archer viable. I personally prefer it on a Viv. Alchemist, since they can get wings and if you're going to rely on staying in the same spot, may as well be hovering out of melee reach. But it works just as well for rogues. It's called "dip Oracle." That's it. Ok, there's a little more to it than that. You dip Oracle 1, take the Water Sight revelation, and use your spell slots and/or a wand to put up Obscuring Mist. Against anyone not adjacent to you, you have total concealment. In other words, they cannot see you. Sneak attack away! Ideally you pick up Sniper Goggles ASAP, so foes can't just walk out of your 30 ft halo of death, but even if they're out of SA range prior to affording that... as someone with nothing but archery feats, I'd call someone moving away from me a net win. If they close to melee, you can still 5 ft step away and ful attack SA, they'll just be hurting you, too (they can't 5 ft step, at least).
Of course, some DMs may not like this "trick" (yet are ok with the standard intended use of Oracles hiding in an Obscuring Mist and lobbing SPELLS *shrug*), and Obscuring Mist is woefully vulnerable to wind effects and fire spells, so this still is far from fool proof. But it's your best bet to not suck as a low/mid-level rogue archer.
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As far as comparing other archer classes...
Fighter is solid at all levels and REALLY helps with the initial surge of needed feats. Fighter has the best sheer damage output for most of the game (Sohei will eventually win w/ flurry + Rapid Shot +ki points) thanks to gloves of duelling and weapon training plus the fighter-only feats. He fails at pretty much everything not directly related to shooting things dead, though (no perception class skill, poor skills in general, no casting, no stealth...).
Zen Archer Monk is very good at the early levels (I never thought I'd see an archer that WASN'T feat starved!), capping in power compared to the other archers around level 6, I'd say, that's the peak. Level 8 he gets another attack and is still looking decent. Then...the next 9 levels are almost a total wasteland, he gets almost nothing boosting his archery. At level 17, he suddenly gets awesome again, because now he can shoot stunning/serenity/punishing arrows and even chain a death effect (quivering palm) to an arrow, but gets nothing else of note afterwards. So, good at levels 1-8 and 17+, subpar the rest, and in general hampered at the mid and late levels by no spellcasting and mediocre skills, as well as medium BAB for qualifying for feats.
Sohei on the other hand doesn't even get his crap STARTED until level 6, archery-wise, and is horribly feat starved and MAD compared to Zen Archer. I think by level 12 it surpasses Zen Archer, staying ahead even post-17. Definitely works better in a high power game with more point buy and wealth, and in games that start at a later level. Possibly the best late game archer, and with Leadership or multiclassing can be a nasty mounted archer.
Ranger has a slow start, falling behind first the fighter, then the Zen Archer. But once Zen Archer starts falling off in power and the spells per day start adding up, I think Ranger might shine the brightest. Certainly, once he hits level 10 and has both IPS and Point Blank Master, Ranger starts feeling like "a zen archer, except with full time full BAB, better HD, better skills, spells, and an extra set of actions per round (companion)." Not sure if he beats out Sohei late game, probably subjective. Sohei outdamages, but Ranger can do much more than shoot a bow.
Paladin, I don't like as an archer. Don't know why so many people do. He completely destroys a number of solo encounters per day equal to his Smite Evil uses and is subpar to every other archer class by a fair margin the rest of the time. Just doesn't sound fun to me, on either extreme.
Inquisitor fails at being an archer. Medium BAB, no bonus feats to help the high entry cost to archery, can't ever get Point Blank Master AND has to wait till level 15 to get IPS! That's freaking awful! It wasn't even until UC that we got teamwork benefits archery-related. A whole 2 of them. One requires knowing another teamwork feat and the other has a moderately high level requirement. So you basically get Lookout at 3, then the only 2 archery teamwork feats that exist at 6 and 9, I guess.
So, in conclusion, there is no best archery class. They're all with their ups and downs. Except Inquisitor and Rogue and (IMHO) Paladin, which just suck at it.
The best archer, at almost any level you care to mention, is the zen archer.
15th level isn't particularly favourable, but Ravingdork posts a solid fighter archer at that level way up above (Dayer) - and presents him beautifully too - so here's a zen archer at that level for direct comparison. Note that Lyu is built with 20pb, Dayer with (as far as I can tell) 26pb.
Name: Lyu. Race: Human. Class/Level: Qinggong Zen Monk 15. Favoured Bonus: H∞. Age: 30. Height: 5’. Weight: 130lbs.
Pointbuy: 14/14/14/7/17/7 = 20Strength: 14 (18). +4
Dexterity: 14 (18). +4
Constitution: 14 (18). +4
Intelligence: 7. -2
Wisdom: 22 (28). +9
Charisma: 7. -2Hit Points: 161
Initiative: +8
Perception: +27
Speed: 80
Armour: 43, Touch: 33, Flatfooted: 38
Fort +18 (SR25), Ref +19 (SR25), Will +22 (SR25)Base Attack: +11/+6/+1 Base Flurry: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
CMB: +15, CMD: 52
Fist base attack +15/+10/+5 (2d10+4, cold iron, magic, lawful)
Fist vital strike +15 (2d10+4d10+4 & ditto)
Bow base deadly attack +24/+19/+14 (1d8+18/19-20x3, -1 attack & damage beyond 30’, all DR bar epic)
Bow ki damage deadly vital strike +24 (2d10+4d10+18 & ditto)
Bow deadly flurry haste +27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17 (1d8+18)
Bow ki damage deadly flurry haste +27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17 (2d10+18)........................
Rest of the thread too long, so I don't know if any of these points have been brought up. Pardon me if they have, and ignore my post in that case.
Couple things I have to say about your build, first, you're not a Zen Archer, you're a Qinggong Zen Archer. Technicality, I know, and most of your abilities come from Zen Archer, but enough of your AC comes from Qinggong I think it should be mentioned.
Second, I'm not sure on the legality of both Qinggong and Zen Archer as archtypes because they both replace Diamond Body. True, you can regain Diamond Body, but unless it states elsewhere, RAW says you can't have both archtypes. This also applies to Tongue of the Sun and Moon. However, Qinggong Monk cannot replace this ability until 18th level, at which point the Zen Archer has already replaced this ability at 17th level. I should mention that the Qinggong Monk has the ability to re-select the class abilities that conflict with the Zen Archer, however, Qinggong cannot replace those conflicting abilities until a level after Zen Archer has replaced them. One could argue that the Zen Archer simply doesn't gain the abilities until Qinggong has re-selected the conflicting abilities, but, per RAW (AFAIK), he can't do this.
On the same subject, your vows replace Still Mind, and so too does the Zen Archer archetype, so you can't actually take the vows.
So in total, we have 3 situations in which you have conflicting class abilities that can't be applied. This is a big issue because some of your abilities, such as the barkskin, come from the Qinggong build. As it stands, I have a pure Zen Archer on my Hero Labs right now (as I was attempting to rebuild it), and the AC is 36 instead of your stated 43, which makes your Zen Archer FAR more vulnerable.
You're build is pretty solid, if some legality issues that I am unclear on, and by no means a master of.
Paladin, I don't like as an archer. Don't know why so many people do. He completely destroys a number of solo encounters per day equal to his Smite Evil uses and is subpar to every other archer class by a fair margin the rest of the time. Just doesn't sound fun to me, on either extreme.
I have to respectfully disagree on this one. Most adventures require the party to go after the bad guys which means Smite Evil comes into play. Oath of Vengaence Paladin lets you use up your Lay on Hands ability to Smite more often. You have a full BAB class in full plate with better saves than nearly every other class doing crap loads of damage when they smite. They have enough feat options to get the most important feat requirements such as Deadly Aim etc so I think they are an excellent choice.
If you mean they don't sound fun to you because they are too powerful, then fair enough.
There is another method, however, to make a rogue archer viable. I personally prefer it on a Viv. Alchemist, since they can get wings and if you're going to rely on staying in the same spot, may as well be hovering out of melee reach. But it works just as well for rogues. It's called "dip Oracle." That's it. Ok, there's a little more to it than that. You dip Oracle 1, take the Water Sight revelation, and use your spell slots and/or a wand to put up Obscuring Mist. Against anyone not adjacent to you, you have total concealment. In other words, they cannot see you. Sneak attack away! Ideally you pick up Sniper Goggles ASAP, so foes can't just walk out of your 30 ft halo of death, but even if they're out of SA range prior to affording that... as someone with nothing but archery feats, I'd call someone moving away from me a net win. If they close to melee, you can still 5 ft step away and ful attack SA, they'll just be hurting you, too (they can't 5 ft step, at least).
+1 to this. I love unusual ideas like this to make unique builds that still work.
The best archer is:
Lore Warden 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4
I read all the other people quibbling, but in the end the above build wins. None of those other builds fly all day. The sheer versatility of this build mixed with its damage (right there with any other build) makes it win.
In other words, the best archer has full iterative attacks AND 9th level spells, along with all the feats he needs to be amazing.
Paladin, I don't like as an archer. Don't know why so many people do. He completely destroys a number of solo encounters per day equal to his Smite Evil uses and is subpar to every other archer class by a fair margin the rest of the time. Just doesn't sound fun to me, on either extreme.
I have to respectfully disagree on this one. Most adventures require the party to go after the bad guys which means Smite Evil comes into play. Oath of Vengaence Paladin lets you use up your Lay on Hands ability to Smite more often. You have a full BAB class in full plate with better saves than nearly every other class doing crap loads of damage when they smite. They have enough feat options to get the most important feat requirements such as Deadly Aim etc so I think they are an excellent choice.
If you mean they don't sound fun to you because they are too powerful, then fair enough.
My first archer was an Oath of Vengeance Paladin (because my favorite character was a melee version) and I never had any problems with him. Against evil creatures he was bad@ss at range which made him more effective against flyers and whatnot. In the rare event of a non-evil encounter, he buffed with spells like Blessing of Fervor, unslung his shield, stepped up and tanked for the party with high saves, great AC and swift self-heals. All-in-all a great character and a foundation to build a party around. Off the top of my head, I think he was built something like this:
Human Fighter 2/Paladin 18
Attributes
Str 14
Dex 17 (+2 Racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th & 12th)
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14 (+1 at 16th & 20th)
Feats:
1st - Weapon Focus: Bow
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Rapid Shot
2nd - Precise Shot
3rd - Deadly Aim
5th - Combat Reflexes
7th - Snap Shot
9th - Improved Snap Shot
11th - Improved Precise Shot
13th - Manyshot
15th - Greater Snap Shot
17th - Extra Lay on Hands
19th - Extra Lay on Hands
The best archer is:
Lore Warden 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4
I read all the other people quibbling, but in the end the above build wins. None of those other builds fly all day. The sheer versatility of this build mixed with its damage (right there with any other build) makes it win.
In other words, the best archer has full iterative attacks AND 9th level spells, along with all the feats he needs to be amazing.
I'm intrigued - I hadn't considered Eldritch Knight as an Archer option, but there is some stuff there to like. Feats have got to be tight though - seems more like a Wizard who can fire arrows well than an Archer who can cast spells... he also seems like he would struggle through early and middle levels, even if he tops out as teh uber.
Why Lore Warden?
I have to respectfully disagree on this one. Most adventures require the party to go after the bad guys which means Smite Evil comes into play. Oath of Vengaence Paladin lets you use up your Lay on Hands ability to Smite more often. You have a full BAB class in full plate with better saves than nearly every other class doing crap loads of damage when they smite. They have enough feat options to get the most important feat requirements such as Deadly Aim etc so I think they are an excellent choice.
If you mean they don't sound fun to you because they are too powerful, then fair enough.
Since I don't dispute their power, I guess "not fun" is the crux of my view.
Smite is not just limited by evil only and times/day. It's also only on one enemy. IME DMs, especially ones faced with a PC who can utterly murder the hell out of a single target, don't use solo boss type encounters much. They'll try to have multiple foes or "villain parties." And again, the disparity is just so high. When you're smiting, you are just putting out such massive damage, especially since unlike a melee paladin you can basically full attack (and rapid shot and manyshot) every turn. When you're not... you've still got the archery feats and full BAB, granted. But you're definitely doing significantly worse than most other archer characters would be.
So, yeah. Just doesn't sound fun to me, too unbalanced (disparity between smiting and not) and situational (how the DM handles combats) for me.
Also, you need dex for attack, so heavy armor is pretty useless. And what feat options? Paladins get no bonus feats at all. Unless you mean divine hunter, which gives ONE bonus feat at first level...and then 19 levels of really godawful class feature swaps.
Oath of Vengeance: Can you get multiple extra smites with it? The way it's written it sounds like a flat +1 smite for -2 channels.
Smite is not just limited by evil only and times/day. It's also only on one enemy. IME DMs, especially ones faced with a PC who can utterly murder the hell out of a single target, don't use solo boss type encounters much.
The Oath of Vengeance Paladin has plenty of Smites to use and doesn't have to be saved just for the BBEG. Also the smite is not necessary against many lesser foes where the Paladin's full attack will be enough to take things out in 1 or 2 rounds. The Paladin could easily choose to Smite more than once per encounter if required.
Also, you need dex for attack, so heavy armor is pretty useless.
I tend to look at the power of a build from 1 to 20 rather than 20 with extra focus on the first 10 to 12 levels as that's what most people play. Full plate at 1st to 3rd levels is very helpful if you can wear it. You don't need to be mobile because you are standing back and shooting with your high dex.
And what feat options? Paladins get no bonus feats at all. Unless you mean divine hunter, which gives ONE bonus feat at first level...and then 19 levels of really godawful class feature swaps.
Like I said earlier, there are some key feats that are vital for an archer build and you don't need bonus feats to get them. That includes such things as PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot and Deadly Aim. This is easily achieved by a human Paladin with feat slots to spare. There are many extra feats for archery but they are not essential because of their diminishing returns as far as damage output is concerned, but are nice to have.
Oath of Vengeance: Can you get multiple extra smites with it? The way it's written it sounds like a flat +1 smite for -2 channels.
It's lay on hands, not channels which are very different things for a Paladin. There is an Extra Lay on Hands feat (gives you 2 Lay on Hands) which is essentially also an Extra Smite feat for the Oath of Vengeance Paladin.
Improved Unarmed Strike and Perfect Strike are not "archery" feats.
I'll grant you the Perfect Strike one though, since they specifically modify the way it works for the Zen Archer.
They also Reflexive Shot at 9th level, which is mechanically the same as Snap Shot.
They also get other things Fighters don't get, like triple their movement, a self heal, the ability to Dimension Door, etc.
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The best archer is:
Lore Warden 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4
I read all the other people quibbling, but in the end the above build wins. None of those other builds fly all day. The sheer versatility of this build mixed with its damage (right there with any other build) makes it win.
In other words, the best archer has full iterative attacks AND 9th level spells, along with all the feats he needs to be amazing.
I'm intrigued - I hadn't considered Eldritch Knight as an Archer option, but there is some stuff there to like. Feats have got to be tight though - seems more like a Wizard who can fire arrows well than an Archer who can cast spells... he also seems like he would struggle through early and middle levels, even if he tops out as teh uber.
Why Lore Warden?
Lore Warden because, well, you don't need heavy armor or shield proficiencies, and it lets you grab two extra skill points. It's a really minor benefit, to be honest, but...it fits the idea of the character and grabs you those two extra skill points.
Early levels are certainly not THE BEST with this build, though with intelligent play you are still pretty good. At first level, you're a fighter with a bow...after that you can still shoot your bow at about the same level as a bard or whatever 3/4 BAB class (see...it's not THAT bad). You'll want to avoid spells that focus on making enemies save, but there are plenty of other really good spells you can use as an (almost) full wizard early on, too.
Really, you're good at 1st, decent 2-8, and scale REALLY quickly after that to the point of ridiculousness.
Feats aren't that tight as a human, considering you get the fighter bonus, scribe scroll and a craft feat for free from wizard, and then three freebies from EK. You also end up with pretty awesome skills (by the end you have all the Knowledges available, Sense Motive, Perception, Spellcraft, Stealth, etc.) If you start as a human with 14 Int, you get 5 skills per level, plus whatever you decide to put on Headbands of Int when you craft them (so a few more maxed skills, basically)
Also, you're DEFINITELY an archer who uses spells to buff and for versatility outside of combat.
The biggest downside is that people are just going to ignore you at the playing table when you try to tell them what buffs you have on (it gets to be a lot), especially if your group plays a lot of dungeon crawls where you know combat is coming (this character OWNS in that setting, but is less effective, though still good, in campaigns where you NEVER know when combat will happen).
Could you post a full build? As it stands, you're just saying it does stuff without saying what is actually doing the 'stuff'.
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Could you post a full build? As it stands, you're just saying it does stuff without saying what is actually doing the 'stuff'.
If that's directed at me, sure.
Here's Ek the Archer at level 11. It's a good level for him as he gets some feats and 5th level spells (Overland Flight and Teleport are BIG spells in terms of out of combat versatility, team benefit, and also...flying all day = win for a good archer unless all you do is play in ten foot tall corridors).
Keep in mind this is done at 15 point buy (just to avoid having to do it later for the negative nancys out there). He gets better with more points as he can be somewhat MAD.
Ek the Archer
Human Lore Warden 1/Wizard (Transmuter) 5/Eldritch Knight 5
Neutral Medium Human
Initiative +12 Senses Perception +21, Sense Motive +19 Darkvision 60'
Defenses
Armor Class 20 (27 with Shield, Haste, Magic Circle vs. Evil) Touch 16 (19) Flatfooted 14 (20)
Combat Maneuver Defense 27
Hit Points: 1d10+5d6+5d10
Fortitude +9 Reflex +12 Will +10
Misc: +2 all saves from Heroism not included or +1 reflex while hasted
Offense
Speed 30' Fly 40’
Base Attack Bonus +8
Combat Maneuver Bonus +11
+2 Holy Corrosive Composite Longbow: +18 1d8+7
Fully Buffed Full Attack (Haste, arcane strike, deadly aim, heroism, flame arrows, gravity bow, manyshot, rapid shot, point blank shot) +16/+16/+16/+11 [first attack deals damage twice, add all arrows before any DR] 2d6+17+1d6 acid+1d6 fire+(2d6 vs. evil alignment)
Statistics
Strength (14+2) (16) Dexterity (15+4+4) 23 Constitution 10
Intelligence (13+4) 17 Wisdom 12 Charisma 8
Racial Trait(s): Extra Skill Point per level, extra feat at first level
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Scribe Scroll, Rapid Shot, Arcane Strike, Craft Wondrous Item, Deadly Aim, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Weapon Specialization (Longbow), Clustered Shots, Alertness (from Ioun Stone)
Language(s): Common, Elven, Draconic, Giant, Thassilonian
Wizard Powers: Bonded Item (Composite Longbow: Str 3), Bonded Item spontaneous spell 1/day, Telekinetic Fist (6/day), Physical Enhancement +2 (applied to Strength), Opposed Schools: Evocation, Necromancy
Diverse Training: Ek counts as having 6 levels in Fighter for feat pre-reqs.
Skills: (+2 all skills from Heroism not included) Spellcraft +17, Knowledge Arcana +17, Knowledge Nature +10, Knowledge Religion +10, Knowledge Planes +10, Knowledge Dungeoneering +10, Knowledge Engineering +7, Knowledge History +12, Knowledge Geography +7, Knowledge Local +7, Fly +10 (+5 additional when using Overland Flight), Linguistics +9, Craft (Bows and Arrows) +7 (+5 additional if using Crafter’s Fortune), Sense Motive +19, Perception +21
Traits: Adopted (Elf) [Warrior of Old: +2 Initiative], Magical Knack: +2 caster level up to HD
Spells Prepared:
5 (1+S)- Overland Flight, Teleport
4 (2+S)- Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door, Flame Arrow (as 4th instead of 3rd)
3 (4+S)- Heroism x2, Flame Arrow, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Circle vs. Evil
2 (5+S)- Darkvision, See Invisibility, Rope Trick, Mirror Image x2, Resist Energy
1 (5+S)- Mage Armor, Shield x2, Gravity Bow x2, Vanish
Cantrips (4)- Detect Magic, Mend, Prestidigitation, Message
Equipment:
Belt of Dexterity ([8k] crafted)
Headband of Intelligence ([8k] crafted: Associated Skills – Sense Motive, Perception)
Eyes of the Eagle [2.5k]
Ioun Stone of Alertness [10k]
+1 Holy Corrosive Composite Longbow Str 3 (crafted as bonded item) [17k]
Boots of Speed [6k - crafted]
Cloak of Resistance +3 [9k]
Lesser Bracers of Archery [5k]
Rod of Extend, Lesser [3k]
Handy Haversack [2k]
Glove of Storing [10 k]
All arrows are cold iron to start with, but Ek also packs blunt arrows and an assortment of arrows that have weapon blanch (a bunch of silver blanched arrows and a bunch of adamantine blanched arrows) He crafts the cold iron arrows in downtime on the road or on watch or whatnot as the DC and cost are both very low. He also carries a couple of real adamantine arrows, as one can never be sure when a chain needs to be broken from a distance to drop a chandelier on someone.
He has some money left over to pay for the spellbook costs, but I'm not doing all that out :p
I think this is the first archer that I've seen posted that can hit hard, but still retain out of combat viability. I like it. Consider it borrowed-without-intent-to-return.
Dotted.
Love the Zen Archer builds - would be nice to get a ruling on if Quingong stacks with it or not... I've seen some info that would imply that quingong stacks with every other archetype but it was far from official...Qinggong replacements are all optional so stacks with any and all other archetypes.
This is very well know.
Citation?
I don't know of a citation from outside of the book or prd, but on the PRD for the qingong monk it states the monk can select a ki power for one of the abilities and that the ki power will replace whatever they choose to give up.
Instead of replacing it, it is optional, as such the original ability should still be in place as long as you do not choose to replace it.
Edit: Also the Vows do not replace the Still mind ability, its just that once you take one of the vows, you will not be able to ever gain the still mind ability. An important distinction, as this means that the ninja (or any other class capable of getting ki) are capable of taking the vows for more ki.
I don't know of a citation from outside of the book or prd, but on the PRD for the qingong monk it states the monk can select a ki power for one of the abilities and that the ki power will replace whatever they choose to give up.
Instead of replacing it, it is optional, as such the original ability should still be in place as long as you do not choose to replace it.
That is exactly how I would rule it, but from a RAW perspective, one can't select Qinggong Monk because it does replace class abilities, even though the Qinggong Monk can reselect them. However, it doesn't say anywhere on the PRD that the Qinggong Monk archtype, and another archtype with conflicting abilities, can be applied to the same character.
Like I said, I personally do not see any problem with stacking the two archtypes, I just felt that it should be pointed out in case someone else wants to play this class, and find out he can't because it isn't rules legal, say for a Society game.
Edit: Also the Vows do not replace the Still mind ability, its just that once you take one of the vows, you will not be able to ever gain the still mind ability. An important distinction, as this means that the ninja (or any other class capable of getting ki) are capable of taking the vows for more ki.
See, now I'm of two minds on this one. On the one hand, I see how vows and Zen Archer could stack, because the Vows forbid Still Mind, but don't replace it. However, it does forbid access to the Still Mind and since Zen Archer replaces Still Mind, it could be argued that it forbids the replaced ability. If that were the case, then yes, one could be a Zen Archer with Vows.
Like I said, there are some legal issues and I am no expert. If we could get a ruling on the Qinggong Monk stacking with other archetypes, and if we could get a ruling on Vows and Still Mind, it would be appreciated. Though I doubt we'll get anything.
I think this is the first archer that I've seen posted that can hit hard, but still retain out of combat viability. I like it. Consider it borrowed-without-intent-to-return.
Told you it was the ultimate :p
It's REALLY fun to play, too. Enjoy if you ever get the chance.
And that's how I would rule it. I'm not saying it can't be done, I was simply pointing out the legality is questionable. I imagine most people would allow Qinggong Monk, Zen Archer, and Vows to be compatible, myself being one of them. Someone has to point out that there is room for it to be disallowed, and I figured I'd be the one to do it.
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I think this is the first archer that I've seen posted that can hit hard, but still retain out of combat viability. I like it. Consider it borrowed-without-intent-to-return.Told you it was the ultimate :p
It's REALLY fun to play, too. Enjoy if you ever get the chance.
Okay, I'm playing around with this and I wanted to get your thoughts on a few things. Here are the feat selections I'm currently planning:
1st (F1) - Weapon Focus: Bow, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
2nd (W1) - Scribe Scroll
3rd (W2) - Precise Shot
4th (W3)
5th (W4) - Focused Shot
6th (W5) - Craft Magic Arms and Armor
7th (EK1) - Persistent Spell, Arcane Strike
8th (EK2)
9th (EK3) - Clustered Shots
10th (AA1)
11th (AA2) - Manyshot
12th (AA3)
13th (EK4) - Quicken Spell
14th (EK5) - Improved Precise Shot
15th (EK6) - Dazing Spell
16th (EK7)
17th (EK8) - Spell Perfection: Ball Lightning
18th (EK9) - Spell Penetration
19th (EK10) - Spell Focus: Evocation
20th (AA4)
I'm going with the Transmutationist as well, mainly for the buffs and the Dex bonus.
I like the spell Ball Lightning as a sort of signature spell at higher levels. When you cast it as a 'perfected' spell, you can get Dazing Spell for free with Persistent Spell boosting it up to just 6th level, meaning you can cast it pretty much every combat. It'll last all combat and all of the now Persisting Dazing balls can be moved independantly as a move action. If nothing else, they will make a superb defense for you against anything that can fly. Spell Perfection doubles the benefit of Spell Penetration and Spell Focus which is why I took them, as well as the fact that my caster level is a little lower than most equivalent magic weilders.
I figure Quicken will work nicely with things like True Strike for Imbue Arrow or even getting up a Shield spell as combat begins without having to lose an attack round.
I didn't take Deadly Aim. I figure with Arcane Strike, Focused Shot and Elemental Arrows I was getting good damage per shot without sacrificing any accuracy - I want as many of those iterative attacks to hit as possible.
I took Craft Arms and Armor almost exclusively to make sure I always had the custom bow I wanted and for the ability to craft Bane arrows.
Thoughts?
[EDIT: A quick question - does the dual-applicability of Transmutation's Physical Enhancement at 20th level apply at 20th level or at the 20th Wizard level. As written, it seems like it can be interpretted either way.