The title should say it all, but here's some clarification.
Devise a pure Rogue build (feats and rogue talents), and tactics, to take out an equal level Barbarian... y'know, the brute with more HP, more offense, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge?
You can even assume the Rogue gets the surprise round if necessary.
Go!
Make Paper that can beat the tar out of Scissors! I kid, just dotting the thread, should be interesting (off the top of my head I've got nothing, but I don't have the skills of some of the guys on this forum).
it the rogue can fly and the barb can't and can't get away, MAYBE. Depends on ammunition stored
We should have more grounds for this challenge. What levels are we talking? Point buy? How are we assuming this fictional conflict to take palce?
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....Can the rogue take barbarian levels?
a Rogue 1/Barbarian 8 would do ok vs Barbarian 9.
That's all I got
For our next match, I suggest a fuzzy bunny vs a bear with laser beams on its head. That should be about equivalent
This isn't really as bad as people are making it out to be. Assuming you start next to each other, and the Rogue can get the initiative, it is theoretically doable. Be a bandit and, in the surprise round, Greater Feint + attack (sap with Sap Master, of course). Follow with a full, Greater Two-Weapon fighting attack with saps and Crippling Strike (maybe with an Offensive Defense mixed in (or all OD, if they stack)). Hope you reduce strength/add enough AC to survive the attack, then do it again with Improved Two-Weapon Feint.
Of course, we'd need a target build to see if it worked out. But honestly, I think it could be pulled off. Pretty much any character built as a pure "Class X Killer" should be able to pull something like this off, regardless of the currently existing class imbalances. Offense is pretty much always easier than defense.
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Does Uncanny Dodge protect against feinting? The rules for feint don't say "flat-footed", just "loses Dex to AC". If this works as I think it works, here's my build:
1:Combat Expertise
2:Finesse Rogue
3:Improved Feint
Why Finesse? Because we're going up against something that hits like a truck, so we want all the AC we can get, and thus all the DEX we can get. We'll also need 13 INT and we can't dump CHA either, sadly. Our saving grace is that our Barbarian foe is unlikely to have much WIS or Sense Motive ranks.
I stopped at Level 3 because we want this fight to go down as soon as possible-- the more levels we each get, the more this fight leans in favor of Barbarians. They'll be getting Imp. Uncanny Dodge, DR, and more CON or STR bonuses as they level up. Our BAB, and AC, grows slower than their BAB. If I had to build it for higher levels, here's how I'd continue.
4:Resiliency
5:Weapon Focus(weapon of choice)
6:Combat Trick(Improved Disarm)
7:Dodge
8:Combat Trick(Greater Feint)
I figure disarming could help, since the Barbarian's Power Attack is less fearsome without his zweihander of choice. At some point we should probably get Agile Maneuvers but I'm not sure where we could fit it in.
A Sniper would do pretty well, particularly a halfling sniper with Shadow bonuses on their armor. Take him to 9th level or so, give him Leadership (with 7th level Alchemist Mindchemist Cohort), Lookout, and a couple of Archery feats, Ninja tricks: Pressure Points and 3 instances of Deadly Range. For gear? +2 bow and gloves of Missle snaring (for if he has charging hurler).
Lookout with your buddy allows you a full round action in the surprise round. You can snipe from 60 feet away (20ft past charge distance in the surprise round), and your pal can remain invisible near you with a readied Tanglefoot bomb. Haste Extract and Rapid shot gets you 4 arrows. Say 3 hit, that's about 52 damage in sneak dice alone, one double move toward you later you get to full attack again. Pressure points take out Dexterity so the cohort's bombs that force reflex saves are more effective.
I dunno, seems like a good strategy. I'm sure Shrodinger's barbarian could beat it, but it would be fun to try.
edit:
oh yeah, uncanny dodge. easy. Just make him 4 levels higher than the barbarian. Problem solved.
Oterisk, so pretty much you need someone else to give you the means to beat the barbarian.
Got it.
...
BARBARIAN NOT GOING TO SAY IT.
EVERYONE ALREADY KNOW WHAT BARBARIAN AM GOING TO SAY.
THREAD MAYBE AM MADE SO BARBARIAN AM SAY IT.
BUT BARBARIAN NOT GOING TO SAY IT. BARBARIAN JUST GOING TO SIT ON HAUNCHES AND HAVE MORE BOOZOHOL.
GOOD LUCK, ASPIRING ROGUE. AM GOING TO NEED IT.
Oterisk, so pretty much you need someone else to give you the means to beat the barbarian.
Got it.
AM BARBARIAN needs someone else to beat all castys. What's the difference?
If you have to make an Appeal to AM to support your argument, you should rethink it :)
And yes, Appeal to AM is now a real fallacy.
TECHNICALLY BARBARIAN REQUIRE BAT SERVICES IN ORDER TO GO 88 MPH AND GET BACK TO FUTURE, MARTY.
BARBARIAN THEORY AM WORKING PRETTY DARN SOLID WITH ANIMAL COMPANION, OR EVEN 6 HD BAT.
BUT THIS AM NOT BARBARIAN THREAD.
And yes, Appeal to AM is now a real fallacy.
Not until it has a Wiki page it isn't.
If you have to make an Appeal to AM to support your argument, you should rethink it :)
OP asked for Feats and Rogue Talents to beat up a barbarian. Are any of the feats I used unavailable to rogues?
But again, what's the difference between this and AM threads? No build, no scenario theory-crafting is right up his alley.
THIS AM THREAD ABOUT ROGUES, DUH.
THIS AM THREAD ABOUT ROGUES, DUH.
Rogues who have learned something from AM. Be proud man. Be proud.
IF ROGUE LEARNED FROM AM, AM STOP TAKING ROGUE LEVELS AFTER LIKE, 1.
AND MAYBE HAVE SPELL SUNDER.
ROGUE AM NOT LEARNING WELL, AM ALWAYS TRYING STEAL TEST ANSWERS.
AM WHY BARBARIAN NO LONGER TEACH IN COLLEGE ANYMORE.
IF ROGUE LEARNED FROM AM, AM STOP TAKING ROGUE LEVELS AFTER LIKE, 1.
AND MAYBE HAVE SPELL SUNDER.
ROGUE AM NOT LEARNING WELL, AM ALWAYS TRYING STEAL TEST ANSWERS.
AM WHY BARBARIAN NO LONGER TEACH IN COLLEGE ANYMORE.
Mr AM, if you'll note, that's exactly what I suggested.
sap mastery scout archetype with greater invisibility on.
A Sniper would do pretty well, particularly a halfling sniper with Shadow bonuses on their armor.This.
-- If your Stealth beats their Perception, you get the drop on them and your SA applies. Snipe/move/stealth/rinse/recycle/repeat.
Ah, there it is. I just overthought it. I do that.
Wand of calm emotions for the surprise round.
Then, ray of exhaustion scroll for the second round.
Then the rogue goes in with full defense and combat expertise up and whittles at him playing the "I could possibly win lol" game.
Wand of calm emotions for the surprise round.
Then, ray of exhaustion scroll for the second round.
Then the rogue goes in with full defense and combat expertise up and whittles at him playing the "I could possibly win lol" game.
So a DC 14 will save for round 1.
And you don't survive to round 2.
After looking at the matchup more in-depth...
I do have one thing to note.
A lot of this comes down to whether or not the Barbarian took an archetype that removes Uncanny Dodge. Those abilities make the Rogue's life much harder.
Wand of calm emotions for the surprise round.
Then, ray of exhaustion scroll for the second round.
Then the rogue goes in with full defense and combat expertise up and whittles at him playing the "I could possibly win lol" game.
So a DC 14 will save for round 1.
And you don't survive to round 2.
Rogue gets the surprise round so the barbarian is asleep
The barbarian is not a class that is known for it's initiative modifier, where a rogue could have a +5 to +9. And the barb could take improved init, but really, the rogue's mechanics tie into taking improved init as a duh factor.
EDIT: Also calm emotions counters rage's morale bonuses. I remember seeing a thread as long as my street on whether or not you had to fail the save for it to turn off rage, but that's a theory.
-- If your Stealth beats their Perception, you get the drop on them and your SA applies. Snipe/move/stealth/rinse/recycle/repeat.
Well, the current rules aren't that exact in their wording, but given that UD explicitly applies vs. Invisibility, even though UD negates being Flat-Footed and Invisibility (+Stealth by association) doesn't make the target Flat-Footed... It seems reasonable to believe that that sentence exists for a reason, and UD DOES in fact negate something that Invisibility (+Stealth by assoociation) do, i.e. the Denial of Dexterity, even if there is problems if we apply the wording literally. In any game I play, UD's application vs. Invisibility also applies vs. Stealthers, and works regardless of Perception checks (or relative level, which isn't invoked regarding that function, only re: Flanking).
.
Of course, many many Barbarians no longer HAVE Uncanny Dodge since there are so many awesome archetypes that give it up, so in all honesty most Barb-hunting Rogues don't even have to worry about Uncanny Dodge, IMHO.
What's a "straight fight"? Not something that the rogue should really be messing with, especially against an opponent as tough as a Barbarian. Seems to me that the key is stealth. If it's a one-on-one fight, the rogue has to use his considerable skills and stealth score to manipulate the Barbarian into an area where the rogue has an advantage (lots of shadows/places to hide). Sneak attack, possibly ranged, slink back into the shadows, and whittle him down to nothing.
You don't have to choose a class, but you do have to choose a race. If you're not stuck with Society restrictions, I recommend Goblin. Get Small advantages (AC Bonus, attack bonus, stealth bonus), and get a racial bonus that stacks with your class bonus. Add that to size and you have a triple stealth bonus - that's in addition to the +4 a goblin gets to Dex (the most valuable stat for just about any character, exponentially more so for a rogue). A few months back I rolled up a level 1 Goblin with a +20 Stealth without the Stealthy Feat. No joke. (there's also a goblin racial trait that gives a +2 to stealth based on chameleonish skin).
Additionally, note that a goblin does not take the speed penalty that Core small races do. So now your full movement is 30 and a stealthy half is 15 rather than the 10 for a halfling.
Lets say the barbarian takes uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge and both are same level, there is still a way.
Offensive Defense is one of the best melee rogue options. Combine it with sap master and sap adept, where you easily get more than 10 SA dice. So thats +10 maybe to your AC, plus your DEX and normal AC.
Then go TWF and TWF Feint with greater Feint.
For further enhancement, get some wands.
Blur for example. Or just take a ninja and get invisible blade.
50% miss chance are great.
Align weapon is also great.
Then some other nice stuff apllied to SA hampering their DEX/STR and movement ot attacks of oportunity fitting your melee or ranged strategy.
Think on maneuvers like disarm and trip, both greater, then take combat reflexes. Use them with weapon Finesse and your weapon, meaning you apply DEX to them.
Think about using a whip and spring attack, use expeditious retreat on you. Then kite them untill rage is off and they already lost.
Or really just snipe them all day. With their low perception no problem.
If its AM Barbarian, kill the mount first, being invisible.
In generall, even if it takes all day, somehow kiting them and waiting rage to go off is great.
Also poison is an option.
Making use of their low reflex and will saves is also an option.
Im sure there are some nice 1 or 2 level spells usable on wands with use magic device.
The barbarian is faster than you, so you can't run away. He has uncanny dodge, so you can't sneak attack him from hiding. You can use UMD to fly but he'll just drink a potion of fly. He'll do more damage than you on every hit and has more hit points than you. His AC will probably be slightly worse, but your BAB is lower anyway. The only way I can see this working for the rogue is by controlling the fight.
If the barbarian is using a zweihander then grapple him. You still need to be lucky, but grappling prevents him from using two-handed weapons, reduces his power attack damage bonus from the two-hander, stops him from using Furious Focus, forces him to pull out a back-up weapon (if he has one), and makes him lose his Dex to AC unless he has the Savage Grappler archetype (in which case he doesn't have Uncanny Dodge anyway, so we'll ignore that). If you're armed with a light weapon or natural attack you can then sneak attack him until he breaks free.
Half Orc, with the Tusked and Reactionary traits.
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 7, Cha 7.
1. Improved Initiative.
2. Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
3. Improved Grapple
Normal attacks are with a greataxe or falchion, plus Tusks as a secondary attack.
Grapple is +8; CMD vs Grapple is 21, which is comparable to or better than a similar level Barbarian that isn't a grapple specialist. You need two hands free when initiating a grapple to avoid a -4 penalty, hence the bite attack. You get +5 to maintain a grapple and can damage the enemy as part of the standard action used for grappling.
Your damage in a grapple averages 15 per round, so 2-3 rounds is all it takes to drop the barbarian. He'll be doing an average of 11 damage per round, so he'll drop you in 2-3 rounds too... Except you give up your first attack for the initial grapple, so it's not as good as I thought (unless being a stealthy skill monkey gets you a surprise round).
Without grapple, using a greataxe you'll average 19 damage in round 1 and 12 afterwards, so it's comparable but you're not controlling the enemy. The barbarian will average 18 damage per round, so you'll only last 1-2 rounds. The longer the fight goes on the better for the grappling rogue.
Based on a lot of assumptions obviously!
Edit: if he's already standing next to the barbarian and uses the greataxe instead of grappling then the rogue does an additional 1d4+2+2d6 damage if he hits with the tusk attack at -5. In that instance it might be the best option.
Edit 2: Re: edit - no he doesn't, it's just 1d4+2, and the average damage from the greataxe attack is only 12 on the first hit because the barbarian has Uncanny Dodge. So grappling is looking better after all.
Edit 3: corrected CMD after raising Dex. Do you lose the Dex part of your CMD in a grapple though? I don't know, but it affects both participants and makes maintaining a grapple even easier if you do.
And you're still not approaching the 40 or so AC that you'd need just to hope the barbarian whiffs his last attack on a 2.Lets say the barbarian takes uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge and both are same level, there is still a way.
Offensive Defense is one of the best melee rogue options. Combine it with sap master and sap adept, where you easily get more than 10 SA dice. So thats +10 maybe to your AC, plus your DEX and normal AC.
At 9, he rolls 10d6 for sneak attack and adds 10 to his AC
6 from +2 chain shirt, +6 from Dex, +1 from ring, +1 from amulet gives him 24, so 34 ACA 9th level barbarian has 9 bab, 6 str and a +2 weapon for +17 to hit. He's probably power attacking for +15
I see him hitting on 19s and 20s only on his main attack here at this point.
Meanwhile the Barb has +2 chain shirt (so he can obv outrun the rogue like in your other example), a 3 dex and a +1 ring and a +1 amulet for 21, but he's raging so 19
and the rogue has a +6 Bab, two +1 weapons and a +6 Dex for +10/+10, not counting the rogue feinting him since nobody can agree if feint works against uncanny dodge
Even at 20, the sap master rogue is adding 20 to his AC. +9-+11 from celestial chainmail, +10 dex, +5 ring and +5 amulet puts him at 61~, and the barb has +20/+10 str/+5 weapon for +35 -5 for PA gives him +30 to hit or so, so he needs a nat 20 to hit
not sure where this "2" thing is coming from
Have you read superstition?
Have you? It gives a morale bonus to will saves that doesn't stack with the morale bonus from rage.
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Definitely echoing Silent Saturn's advice:
Barbarians usually do not have high Wis, do not have Sense Motive; the only advantage they have is a good BAB but bulking out the Bluff skill you should still have a very good chance to succeed.
Once you get the Barbarian losing Dex to AC (which is NOT the same thing as the flat footed condition, so Uncanny Dodge definitely does not apply), sneak attack away.
Note Honeyed Words (APG) applies to all Bluff checks, so you can use that with Feinting.
Also, depends on the Barbarian you're fighting. If it's same level as you, sure you have to worry about Uncanny Dodge. But if you're 4 levels higher than the barbarian in question, you can flank and stab away.
Other thoughts:
- Take Minor Magic to get touch of fatigue
- Take Major Magic to take ray of enfeeblement or vanish (APG spell)
- Sniper build suggestion is also a good one. For that one, maybe dip into Shadowdancer for HIPS. And heck, whether sniper or not, a dip to get HIPS isn't an awful idea.
- Wouldn't hurt to max out Acrobatics to keep up battlefield mobility (plus do fun stuff like leap up onto chandeliers to flee the barbarian's axe, should things not go well)
- Resiliency is useful. This is especially a fun Rogue talent combined with orc ferocity, making a half-orc rogue a good choice for this (a half-orc thrown out by his orc people, so he has learned how to assassinate savage warriors from the shadows...)
- Befuddling Strike could be useful (get that Feint Build going first so you can sneak attack of course)
- Poisoner could be interesting. You'd need potent poisons to even hope the Barbarian fails the Fortitude saves (although there's always a 5% chance...) but particularly using ones that target Strength or Constitution, that could end up being very nasty.
- Were I to suggest a combat maneuver route, it would be a Disarm build and/or maybe a bit of Dirty Trick (APG) thrown in--but the Barbarian is going to have a damn good CMD, so that will take some dedicated building (plus probably Agile Maneuvers which is a pain in the ass feat tax for playing a maneuvery Rogue, although you can take it as a rogue talent at least).
Rogue gets the surprise round so the barbarian is asleepThe barbarian is not a class that is known for it's initiative modifier, where a rogue could have a +5 to +9. And the barb could take improved init, but really, the rogue's mechanics tie into taking improved init as a duh factor.
EDIT: Also calm emotions counters rage's morale bonuses. I remember seeing a thread as long as my street on whether or not you had to fail the save for it to turn off rage, but that's a theory.
Rage has nothing to do with it. You're trying to make him fail a teeny tiny will save
So, now the barbarian's asleep? Well if we're talking your average barbarian then maybe. But AM BARBARIAN does not sleep.
Now you're thinking "Well I win initiative and can just ray of exhaustion him! LOLOLOLOL!
Well no because now you went from targetting his half decent save to his best save. Conrgatulations. If he has heart of fields like AM BARBARIAN you pretty much wasted two turns waking him up and then angering him. If he doesn't you might still be screwed because even without rage he's a full martial class and you're holding a twig.
And besides you already lost when you mentioned said barbarian was asleep. Why didn't you just power attack coup de grace with a scythe?
and the rogue has a +6 Bab, two +1 weapons and a +6 Dex for +10/+10, not counting the rogue feinting him since nobody can agree if feint works against uncanny dodge
Wait, really? I thought nobody challenged that because it is obvious.
A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
And Improved Uncanny Dodge only mentions flanking. If there is any way to interpret that that feint doesn't work, I'd like to hear it.
and the rogue has a +6 Bab, two +1 weapons and a +6 Dex for +10/+10, not counting the rogue feinting him since nobody can agree if feint works against uncanny dodgeWait, really? I thought nobody challenged that because it is obvious.
A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.And Improved Uncanny Dodge only mentions flanking. If there is any way to interpret that that feint doesn't work, I'd like to hear it.
Nah feint works far as I remember. The tricky bit will be actually hurting him. This is still a beast and your one attack a round from flanking against a flatfooted barbarian might not mean all that much. You still have to hit him. You still have to damage him. And you still have to survive.
Nah feint works far as I remember. The tricky bit will be actually hurting him. This is still a beast and your one attack a round from flanking against a flatfooted barbarian might not mean all that much. You still have to hit him. You still have to damage him. And you still have to survive.
It doesn't have to be one attack a round. Two-Weapon Feint or Improved, Hunter's Surprise for a round... there are ways. It is going to heavily depend on level and all that. Likewise on defense. Vanishing Trick + Ki Pool, Defensive Roll, Knock-Out Blow, Offensive Defense, Weapon Snatcher... the Rogue has ways of surviving a few rounds.
Not saying a general Rogue could pull it off or anything, nor that it wouldn't be a tough fight. However, with initiative and building against a defined Barbarian that can't mutate out of whatever trick you use, it should be doable.
Also, new idea: Spend all money on a barrel of Oil of Taggit. Bet Barbarian he can't drink the whole thing. Hope for arrogance and a roll of 1.
The best idea I'm thinking is the same as the wizard. Never ever fight the barbarian directly. Better yet don't even let on that you exist. There's no surprise round because you win via not ever bein in combat.
Just as an idea. Use your high social skills to convince the local nations that the greatest threat to their nation is the barbarian. Get the funds you require and start building a dungeon into the side of a mountain. Recruit whatever monstrosities you feel are necessary, build every trap, every pitfall to wear down and disassemble the barbarian. Get the best engineers and architects in the realm to build this dungeon made from glass walls filled with flesheating acid in such a way that it can't be sundered without extreme risk to the barbarian preventing him from trying to collapse the mountain, heck maybe even tie it to the prison to an ancient forboding god of the apocalypse. Once done I fill the dungeon with the appropriate bodies adn put out a rumor of tha ancient beer wizard at the bottom of this dungeon.
Barbarian comes. He can't fight mounted. So he fights, he sunders, he reaches the bottom and we duel. I die.
Then when the doppelganger reverts to his normal form the magic mouth spell goes off and says very simply.
"Congratulations Barbarian you've reached the bottom of the dungeon and you've won...oblivion."
That's when I set the charges off on the acid filled walls immersing the barbarian, and any surviving monsters I promised to pay in thousands and thousands of gallons of boiling hot acid. Because I'm a magnificent bastard.
We had an (almost) 1 on 1 fight between our ninja and a barbarian recently, which the ninja won (and the barb was actually a level higher).
It involved liberal use of stealth and the ninja vanishing trick. The ninja lured the raging barbarian away from the rest of the combat and then just stayed out of sight until his rage expired. Then he turned invisible and moved in, and the next round he hit, dealing damage (unfortunately no sneak attack) then went invisible again for 50% concealment. By the time his Ki Pool was empty the barb was out most of his HP already.
Ninja's an alternate rogue class, so technically it counts. If not, a regular rogue with the ki pool and ninja trick rogue talents (Taking vanishing trick as the ninja trick) could pull off the exact same thing.
--Edit: Typo in my last post. I wrote "dealing damage and sneak attack", meant to put "dealing damage, no sneak attack".
Thanks for all the responses.
Up until I wrote the OP, I was convinced that the Barbarian was, by virtue of being a powerful frontliner with the uncanny/improvedUncanny dodge, the tailor-made anti-rogue.
But there was one ace in the hole I already had in mind: UMD.
I know, I know. Everyone has UMD these days, but a Rogue has the skill ranks to spare, has it as a class skill (+3), and has many other skills which imply that CHA isn't as much a dump stat as it is for the Barbarian.
This means that the Rogue is gear-dependent, and using an ability which is common, but if you took a random 1000 population sample of Rogues and compared them to the same sample of Barbarians, you'll find Rogues generally have high UMD, eclipsed only by Bards. This means that it's a safe bet to assume that the mid-to-high level Rogue will be employing level 1-4 magic, which is alot better than relying only on SA.
Not saying that spellcasters can't just do what the Rogue spent skill points and money to maybe do, but the poor Rogue may just be able to pull off some good uses of wands and/or low level scrolls.
The feint build is something else that I already knew about, and suspected to some degree, but this thread confirmed its usefulness - the uncanny dodge countermove. This not only works on barbarians, but also other stealthies (such as a Rogue vs. Rogue fight, as would be common in thieves guild confrontation).
One other thing mentioned by Gluttony is the weakness inherent in Rage - the cooldown. Even if in a fight, a Rogue can bluff, hide and shadow the Barbarian safely until the rage is over, at which point the Rogue gains a much needed edge ... at least until tireless rage, and as long as the Barbarian doesn't figure out the plan and just use that fast-movement to lose the stealthing Rogue in the dust.
Any other alternative ways for a Rogue to beat SA-hard foes?
Hide behind the barbarian? :P
Even than Maligor, 1 level of rogue to acquire the class skill, and 8 levels of barb continuing UMD ranks is much better than 9 levels of rogue.