Little bit stuck on adventure design. The party is about to go to Hell (quite literally), but I don't really know enough about devils and other denizens of the outer planes. All I've managed to do is flip through my bestiaries and take note of the few (i.e. four) devils that are at reasonable CRs for them to face. The PCs are all 4th level.
The story, summarized, at this point is that they've been asked to help recover a nobleman's soul, which was removed from him while he was still alive and traded away by his wife in a deal with a devil. The soul is currently trapped in hell, and I was planning to make the final fight against a bearded devil, and maybe some minions.
I'd love to hear suggestions and ideas.
Level 4 party? In hell? I'd like to say not a chance in hell to stick with the theme, but it just sounds too corny. I've always just had a problem with adventuring parties going into the evil planes to kill stuff. They would have to be super stealthy if this were going to work though and they better have a quick exit strategy. I don't mean to rain on your parade, it just seems way beyond the scope of what a 4th level party is capable of to me.
Have you been able to check out the book of fiends?
Also, it might be useful to make half-fiend and fiendish creatures but don't CALL them that. Give them some "demonic-sounding" names and using the stats to envision something new.
I'm going to have to echo Pipe up there as well. It will take some good storytelling to get them in and out of hell alive!
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Make a few new devils by reskinning other appropriate outsiders (demons for example). Also take advantage of templates to get weaker or stronger devils.
Go through the spells that the PCs could know and figure out which ones will have different effects in hell. Maybe fireballs are maximized but any ice spells have their DC lowered stuff like that.
Think about what the physics of hell will be. Is the gravity different? Can anyone just summon fire out of the air? Maybe teleportation is possible with a full round action? Or just something like dimension door.
Give some thought to the atmosphere (in both senses). It should be oppressive and hot. Requiring Endure Elements at a minimum to avoid saves.
Not all layers are oppressive and hot. :)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/indexes-and-tables/monsters-by-type# type-o utsider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiendish_Codex_II:_Tyrants_of_the_Nine_H ells
If you must send them on a planar adventure maybe they go to a demiplane of some sort run by a more powerful devil who just happens to be out of town the day that the party shows up.
Level 4 party? In hell? I'd like to say not a chance in hell to stick with the theme, but it just sounds too corny. I've always just had a problem with adventuring parties going into the evil planes to kill stuff. They would have to be super stealthy if this were going to work though and they better have a quick exit strategy. I don't mean to rain on your parade, it just seems way beyond the scope of what a 4th level party is capable of to me.
They are super-stealthy actually (it's kind of their schtick) and have a quick exit strategy, they're going there and back via special plane shift scrolls that have been focused on specific spots in Hell and the material plane respectively, which will guarantee they shift in relatively close to their target, and shift back directly into the church they got the scrolls from (none of that "nigh-impossible to determine a precise location to travel to" nonsense).
As for Hell being too much for a 4th level party. I disagree. I'm the GM, any location is only too much if I make it too much. Even Hell (I'm not going to be throwing high-CR devils at them after all, sheesh).
The intended target is on the first layer. I like the volcanic wasteland feel of the place, a ruined fortress of some sort will make a good destination and will fit in well with the location and help to excuse the fact that there's not many extremely powerful devils around (basically it's not an important spot from the point-of-view of the tougher devils), and of course PCs will hear "First layer" and inevitably worry about the possibility of someday facing the second through ninth.
I like the idea of a trial, or something similar, and I could quite easily see the PCs thinking and arguing that the nobleman's wife is the one who deserves to be there instead of him. If they do, I'll certainly make that work for them.
And somebody please slap me for forgetting about the fiendish and half-fiend templates.
Well, looking at denizens of Hell around CR 4, using PFRPG stats:
True Devils:
Accuser Devil (Zebub) CR 3 [Bestiary 2]
Bearded Devil (Barbazu) CR 5 [Bestiary 1]
Hellstoker Devil (Marnasoth) CR 5 [Tome of Horrors Complete]
Lesser Host Devil (Gaav) CR 3 [Book of the Damned, Vol. 1]
Greater Host Devil (Magaav) CR 6 [Book of the Damned, Vol. 1]
Imp CR 2 [Bestiary 1]
Lilin CR 6 [Tome of Horrors Complete]
Lemure CR 1 [Bestiary 1]
Nupperibo CR 1 [Tome of Horrors Complete]
Lesser Possession Devil (Gidim) CR 6 [Pathfinder #29]
Tinder Devil (Ukobach) CR 4 [Pathfinder #25]
Hellspawn:
Cerberi CR 6 [Bestiary 3]
Hell Hound CR 3 [Bestiary 1]
For 3.5 sources, there's lots of fairly low-level devils in Book of Fiends. One of the early Paizo modules (D2 - Seven Swords of Sin) also had the CR 3 Nightmare Bats, which were NE (for some reason) predators/scavengers from Hell. In another (LB1 - Tower of the Last Baron), there was the CR 5 Crepitus (a devilkin that is often mistaken for a large imp).
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You are correct in that your the DM and can make the encounters anyway you want. I think the board is suggesting that it will not be "realistic" in game terms. The First level is a HUGE war zone! with random fireballs striking everywhere... If 4th level PC could survive the traditional way the first level is set up, it would take a miracle.
Avernus
The first layer, Avernus, is a vast charred wasteland of rubble over which the iron towers of the Dukes of Hell stand. Legions of devils march across the plains in continual readiness for the next battle of the Blood War. A red light suffuses the sky and huge fireballs fly across the layer, randomly exploding wherever they hit. Beneath the blood-red sky balls of fire burst unpredictably. They are said to be embodiments of the rage of the imprisoned Lord of the First.
The River Styx flows through this layer, as does the appropriately named River of Blood. From the gate in Ribcage the nearest site is the ruined city of Darkspine, where refugees desperately try to avoid the baatezu thought police while trying to do enough good to shift their town back to the Outlands.
The Bronze Citadel is a huge fortress city, housing massive numbers of devil troops and war machines. It is constantly being added to in the form of new fortifications against attacks. Lord Barbatos, formerly a powerful pit fiend before his ascension to noble status, is the current ruler of Avernus, he resides in a personal fortress at the center of the Bronze Citadel.
*** Barbatos ***
- Avernus is ruled by the archdevil Barbatos (pronounced BAR-ba-tus), who holds the keys to Hell's gates. His unholy symbol is a tri-cornered wave of darkness or shadows surrounding three eyes.
Hell (Lawful Evil)
The nine layers of Hell form a structured labyrinth of calculated evil where torment goes hand in hand with purification. A plane of iron cities, burning wastelands, frozen glaciers, and endless volcanic peaks, Hell is divided into nine nesting layers, each under the malevolent rule of an archdevil. Torture, anguish, and agony are inevitable in Hell, but they are methodical, not spiteful or capricious, and serve a deliberate master plan under the watchful eyes of the disciplined ranks of Hells' lesser devils. The nine layers of Hell, from first to last, are Avernus, Dis, Erebus, Phlegethon, Stygia, Malebolge, Cocytus, Caina, and Nessus.
Hell has the following traits:
•Divinely Morphic: Deities with domains in Hell can alter the plane at will.
•Strongly Law-Aligned and Strongly Evil-Aligned
•Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the lawful or evil descriptor are enhanced.
•Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the chaotic or good descriptor are impeded.
Hellfire
Hellfire is treated as normal fire, but deals half fire damage and half damage from unholy energy. Damage dealt by hellfire is known as hellfire damage. Evil-aligned creatures and creatures with the evil subtype take no damage from the unholy energy, but good-aligned beings and those with the good subtype take double the normal damage from it. Creatures under the effects of spells like protection from evil are unaffected by this unholy energy, though they may still take fire damage.
A typical gout of hellfire, which might spring forth from the plains of Avernus, the pits of Phlegethon (both different layers of Hell), or countless other searing vents throughout the Pit, typically deals 6d6 points of hellfire damage. Aside from such gouts, whole lakes, burning clouds, pyroclastic flows, burning rock, and endlessly smoldering structures flickering with hellfire are known to burn amid the depths of the Pit.
Here's an idea. Instead of hell itself, why not send them to a demi-plane belonging to the devil in question? Sort of like his own little private estate, with a castle, some haunted estate grounds around, and a scary gate.
This way, you can limit its size, staff it with a minimum of servants to this devil, with the bearded devil as the vizier or butler, or captain of guard, or whoever would guard the place while the owner is out.
Makes it easy to limit the number of monsters, you don't have to worry about an entire plane of existence becoming alerted to their presence, and you can incorporate curses, magic areas of effect and puzzles that make thematic sense.
Hmm.. Actually in my ADnD group we've been to hell and back twice and we where level 4-5 at the time as well.
Don't send a party into hell at 4th level. It just demeans the value of hell if a 4th level party can herpderp their way in and out with an imprisoned soul.
Sneaky as they may be, you think that the demon lords in charge of reducing souls into energy and lemures are really going to be outsmarted and outstealthed by some mediocre mortals? It would be a daunting task for level 15-20 PC's. Infiltrating hell doesn't happen. Even Gods don't pick fights there, otherwise it wouldn't exist when the gods of good dropped some angels on it.
The only way remotely concievable is mentioned above, in which the party constructs a legal case for the soul in question, attempting to void the pact made earlier. Devils are lawful and will probably abide by these pacts. Even then, the diplomacy checks required would probably be again more to the scope of someone with influence. As in, someone level 15-20 at the least.
Here's an idea. Instead of hell itself, why not send them to a demi-plane belonging to the devil in question? Sort of like his own little private estate, with a castle, some haunted estate grounds around, and a scary gate.
This way, you can limit its size, staff it with a minimum of servants to this devil, with the bearded devil as the vizier or butler, or captain of guard, or whoever would guard the place while the owner is out.
Makes it easy to limit the number of monsters, you don't have to worry about an entire plane of existence becoming alerted to their presence, and you can incorporate curses, magic areas of effect and puzzles that make thematic sense.
Does +1 work after the fact?
Don't send a party into hell at 4th level. It just demeans the value of hell if a 4th level party can herpderp their way in and out with an imprisoned soul.
Sneaky as they may be, you think that the demon lords in charge of reducing souls into energy and lemures are really going to be outsmarted and outstealthed by some mediocre mortals? It would be a daunting task for level 15-20 PC's. Infiltrating hell doesn't happen. Even Gods don't pick fights there, otherwise it wouldn't exist when the gods of good dropped some angels on it.
They're sneaking into a mostly-unimportant little spot in hell and retaking one soul from a lesser devil. That hardly demeans hell, considering they're not going to be fighting the majority of the real tough stuff hell has to offer. The lords of hell certainly wouldn't be outsmarted by them, but they're not dealing with the lords of hell.
As I've said (twice now) I'm not throwing high CR devils at them. They will probably have established themselves as enemies of hell by the end of such a trip, but let's be honest, they're minor enemies. They're not even threats to any important devil. The lords of hell have FAR more important things to do than worry about a group of 4th level adventurers. If any retaliation is made at all, it's probably going to be from the lesser devils. The PCs may draw more attention as they gain strength (which for me as a GM is a good thing, gives me an excuse to challenge them more at higher levels) but one mini-dungeon crawl in hell and one soul aren't going to bring the immediate fury of the lords of hell on them.
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I don't know...mortals entering the realm of "Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter" and then absconding with a soul are kind of bad for one's street cred. If that got out no one would take Hell seriously. Any mortal at all would feel they could just traipse in and help themselves to a soul or two. Bad form you know.
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Once again I agree you can run your game anyway you want. I think people of the board are just reacting to how weak you make the Hells sound. Do some homework on it.
#1 Fear of a Devil
- Demotion from his current status to a lesser devil
#2 Fear of a Devil
- Death
Souls are their coin for promotion. They take the energies of souls to empower the change from a lower Devil to the next step up. Souls are very valuable in their world. Devils are very vindictive and always seek revenge.
Take a look at this 3.5 book. I know PF has a little information but they have not come out with anything as detailed as this... you can download it free online.
Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells
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Sounds like fun! I would set up the story so that a nice big CR10+ devil (with a great name) stole the soul. When the PCs catch up with him, he offers them a deal to battle his minions. If the PCs win, they get the soul back. If they lose, the devil gets to keep their souls, and has rights to capture the souls of their loved ones.
Assuming the PCs win, they get the soul (which the devil begrudgingly cedes to them) and gain a decent CR enemy who can pop up every once in a while to make their lives miserable(or at least keep them freaked out and looking over their shoulders for a while).
The fact that they are sneaking into hell in a stealth campaign make it so much more interesting. Sneaking around scenes of battle as devils and demons slaughter each other could add to the fun. You might even let the players control a squad of demons in the middle of one of those battles for a bit of a change of pace...and perhaps tie it in as a distraction so that the PCs can go around the fight without being noticed.
I'd go for a lesser devil with some degree of intelligence, a bearded devil doesn't seem like the type of devil to make elaborate pacts.
My personal favorite would be a consular imp with some class levels, being a valued servant to some more powerful devil (Erinyes)can be hard to get too despite it's apparent lack of personal power rogue, bard or sorcerer level to get a CR of 5 or 6 and an appropriate archetype would be a fine challenge and flavorful villain.
Put it in an infernal tower in it's function as major domo to a more powerful devil (erinyes) with considerable political influence with some (giant)lemures, some (champion/bloody/flaming)skeletons,(juju/fast)zombies or ghouls, hell hounds, an insidious trap, some challenging environment and maybe a few (2-4) host devil(Gaav) servants guarding from the rooftop and the gates estates grounds.
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I'd just like to toss out here that I like Gluttony's idea. And as for those people saying that no "mere mortal should be able to traipse into Hell" you forget. These aren't "mere mortals". These are PCs. The heroes of the story.
You can homebrew anything you want, a much less harsh Hells, maybe a depleted hell due to the Blood war... many different scenario. But if your traveling to Golarians version of the 9 Hells that dog just does not hunt and here why...
BBEG - Bearded Devil aka...(Barbazu)
+ minions (according to Op)
Possible minions in his employment
- Lemures (cr 1)
- Imps (cr 2)
- lets say somehow you can avoid the enviroment of hells 1st level (very terrible) and you appear in the fortress/tower (whatever) of the BBEG with all your 4th level resources at full. You stealth it to the Throne room undetected (pass his invisible Imps w/Perception +7).
You then gain surprise... The group might have a chance taking him out in 1 round with surprise and that scenario would be the only one that they would win in.
If the BBEG knew even 1 round in advance - its over.
In Hell they are on their home plane. Most people are use to facing Devils on the material plane where they are summoned and cannot use their summon spell like ability to summon other devils.
BBEG - 1/day—summon (level 3, 1 bearded devil or 6 lemures, 50%)
- Welcome to summon Death.
- 1 round + 1 more BBEG (50%)
- 2 round + 1 more BBEG "
- 3 round + 1 more BBEG "
and on and on and on... Its why fighting in hell is so dangerous.
* realistically he will have much more notice.
Honestly, I doubt a bearded devil and 6 lemures will spell "instant death" or anything. The party is good at getting multiple sneak attacks (every freaking round) and doing heavy damage. They tend to take down "appropriate" encounters without breaking a sweat, and based on past experiences with goblins, big mobs of minions aren't really a threat. To make lemures a challenge I'd probably have to bump their number closer to 10 or 20, or make a swarm of them.
Also... *coughs* Uh, perception +7? If that Imp hopes to see anything coming with perception of only +7 he's dealing with the wrong group. Assuming the wizard, the least stealthy of the group, rolls a 10 it'll take an imp with perception +7 a roll of 19 to beat his stealth. And due to teamwork feats, no member of the party is likely to roll that low, so an Imp would likely be completely incapable of rolling high enough to spot them.
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I like your GM confidence, Gluttony, and agree that GMs can bring PC heros to Hell at any level - it even makes for a memorable adventure since hell is frightening at any level.
Your original post was asking for adventure design. Here are just a few ideas off the top of my head that might be fun to pull elements from for your game:
I. The party learns, from a blathering imp, that the nobleman's soul was extracted from him by a creature called the "Soulgrinder". (Battle with the Soulgrinder can take place once the PC return to their home plane, wishing to put a stop to that kind of "soul-extraction" process. I might recommend using some type of Thoon crafter from MMV or whatever you think would challenge the party. Putting an end to this soul-stealing hell-liaison will feel like an achievement to the party (but do this after their trip to hell, as an adventure climax).
II. The party arrival in hell is within a spired fortress with many gothic window frames from which they can see and watch all the ravenous displays of hellfire, twisting souls, and see in the distance the river styx, and the multitudes of legions marching... The spired fortress would make a nice adventure locale, as its designed to be relatively "safe" from all the infernal madness outside. Perhaps arriving in a quaint "museum" of sorts, where a collector keeps his rare goods. (A dungeon map of that level you could create.)
III. The party investigates the fortress level carefully, revealing a some journals in a laboratory explaining that few more of the Soulgrinder's extracted souls are here in the form of soulgems, hidden in the vault, and to be used to graft aspects of different "good" souls into a new creature that will have the ability to bypass the wards on another devil's vault. Perhaps this fortress belongs to "Imolak" a devil who conspires to retrieve an item from Azluthog who conspires to take over Avernus.
In short, these are just thoughts around making the hell adventure a short dungeon, where they discover that the Soulgrinder on the prime plane must be stopped. Perhaps even create the seed of adventure to return here one day at a higher level and steal one of Imolak's collection pieces, break into his vault, or the vault of Azluthog. To spring into future adventures, they might make a deal with Imolak, especially if one of the players is "good" and can still be bargained with i.e. Imolak might agree to return the souljem of the nobleman in return for stealing something from Azluthog.
If you need more ideas, or if this isn't what you're looking for, just let me know.
Good luck,
Pax
Have you taken a look at any of the older 2nd edition planescape stuff? It has a wealth of information including a module I ran once where a low level party winds up having to make their way across a small section of the first layer of Hell.
The gist was, the more powerful creatures they ran into tried to use the party for their own ends, rather then just flex their muscles and squash them.
Does it make me a terrible person that the first thing I thought was, "Make sure there is an opportunity for a fiddle contest." ?
This is a good opportunity for a non-combat encounter with stakes well beyond what would be reasonable in the Material Plane :)
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Personally, I'd twist the knife at the end. Let your team get their soul, beat the bearded devil, and get to the gate home... and then let the boss show up, beat them mercilessly... and let them go. Because it serves Hell's interests for mortals to think that even the weakest of them can defy hell and live, which he explains calmly as he's whaling on them, and since they couldn't legally keep the soul ANYWAY, they might as well get something from the deal. The players "win" AND will be looking for some payback that might lead them down a darker path back. Just what makes the devils smile.
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Honestly, I doubt a bearded devil and 6 lemures will spell "instant death" or anything. The party is good at getting multiple sneak attacks (every freaking round) and doing heavy damage. They tend to take down "appropriate" encounters without breaking a sweat, and based on past experiences with goblins, big mobs of minions aren't really a threat. To make lemures a challenge I'd probably have to bump their number closer to 10 or 20, or make a swarm of them.
Ahhh that another Bearded Devil he summons not lemures??? My moneys on him summoning another bearded devil and I bet that summon one summons another... It's what makes hell so dangerous.
Like I said you can do anything in a homebrew game, just not possible in a Golarion setting.
Honestly, I doubt a bearded devil and 6 lemures will spell "instant death" or anything. The party is good at getting multiple sneak attacks (every freaking round) and doing heavy damage. They tend to take down "appropriate" encounters without breaking a sweat, and based on past experiences with goblins, big mobs of minions aren't really a threat. To make lemures a challenge I'd probably have to bump their number closer to 10 or 20, or make a swarm of them.
Also... *coughs* Uh, perception +7? If that Imp hopes to see anything coming with perception of only +7 he's dealing with the wrong group. Assuming the wizard, the least stealthy of the group, rolls a 10 it'll take an imp with perception +7 a roll of 19 to beat his stealth. And due to teamwork feats, no member of the party is likely to roll that low, so an Imp would likely be completely incapable of rolling high enough to spot them.
It is hard to say what kind of challenge your party should have, what is the party composition ?
I'd avoid devils with the ability to teleport freely, but hell hounds, imps, kytons, lemures, barghests, undead, half fiends and possibly fiendish vermin can function admirably, the sample half fiend minotaur can be used, give it a studded leather +1 if the AC is a bit low and you have a ready made BBEG.
"I bet a fiddle of gold, against your soul, 'cuz I think I'm better than you." ???
Rock-Offs are also acceptable ways to deal with Devils IMO.
EDIT: In case its not clear, BTW, I'm completely serious. A non-combat challenge by a Devil involving some test of skill would be a great way to change things up in this sort of environment.
"I bet a fiddle of gold, against your soul, 'cuz I think I'm better than you." ???Rock-Offs are also acceptable ways to deal with Devils IMO.
EDIT: In case its not clear, BTW, I'm completely serious. A non-combat challenge by a Devil involving some test of skill would be a great way to change things up in this sort of environment.
Plus, you know, Golden Fidddle!
Does it make me a terrible person that the first thing I thought was, "Make sure there is an opportunity for a fiddle contest." ?
This is a good opportunity for a non-combat encounter with stakes well beyond what would be reasonable in the Material Plane :)
Yes. Yes it does make you a terrible person.
And yet I love it.
And the bard's performance skill of choice is Perform: string...
It is hard to say what kind of challenge your party should have, what is the party composition ?
I'd avoid devils with the ability to teleport freely, but hell hounds, imps, kytons, lemures, barghests, undead, half fiends and possibly fiendish vermin can function admirably, the sample half fiend minotaur can be used, give it a studded leather +1 if the AC is a bit low and you have a ready made BBEG.
They're a Bard, Ninja, Wizard (Necromancer), and Alchemist (Vivisectionist). All 4th level obviously. They specialize in stealth, and killing their enemies before the enemy is even aware combat has begun.
The alchemist has four arms, dual-wields, hits like a train, and can boost his AC to obscene levels (especially compared to the stealthy, squishy other three) with magical assistance. One of his weapons is enchanted with shock magic.
The wizard is a necromancer. He lost his zombie minions recently so he's not too special. He's the only non-good member of the party, being lawful neutral. Pretty much an average 4th level wizard.
The ninja is stealthy, and has a dozen different ways of getting sneak attack every round. He wields a katana, and he also bought a second, silver one for this mission.
And the bard is mostly focused on support of her allies. She's the group's main healer, so she mostly stays back and uses her performance, but she also has an anarchic heavy mace, which in hell is going to be getting a lot of 2d6 bonus damage from all the lawful devils.
And the bard's performance skill of choice is Perform: string...
I think this means you're pretty much obligated.
"Oh god, is that a PIT FIEND?! How will we retrieve her soul now."
Most Awesome Bard in the Universe, "Dont worry, I know this one; Fiddle Contest."
Amirite?
Humm... Just picked up Bestiary 3. The lack of new devils disappoints me, but the single new one, the contract devil, might come in handy if things start moving in a less combat-oriented direction (or if the PCs get caught). I might be able to get some use out of the Adhukait Asura too.
...Still flipping through the pages. Let's see what else this book has got that I might use.
Its all about having fun I guess and if everybody is then theres no sense in getting irked about it. I don't think anybody has posted them yet so here are the qualities of hell:
Hell has the following traits:
Divinely Morphic: Deities with domains in Hell can alter the plane at will.
Strongly Law-Aligned and Strongly Evil-Aligned
Enhanced Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the lawful or evil descriptor are enhanced.
Impeded Magic: Spells and spell-like abilities with the chaotic or good descriptor are impeded.Enhanced/Impeded magic:
Enhanced Magic: Particular spells and spell-like abilities are easier to use or more powerful in effect on planes with this trait than they are on the Material Plane. Natives of a plane with the enhanced magic trait are aware of which spells and spell-like abilities are enhanced, but planar travelers may have to discover this on their own. If a spell is enhanced, it functions as if its caster level was 2 higher than normal.Impeded Magic: Particular spells and spell-like abilities are more difficult to cast on planes with this trait, often because the nature of the plane interferes with the spell. To cast an impeded spell, the caster must make a concentration check (DC 20 + the level of the spell). If the check fails, the spell does not function but is still lost as a prepared spell or spell slot. If the check succeeds, the spell functions normally.
What the alignment means:
Strongly Aligned: On planes that are strongly aligned, a –2 circumstance penalty applies on all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks made by all creatures not of the plane's alignment. The penalties for the moral and ethical components of the alignment trait stack.
Honestly, I doubt a bearded devil and 6 lemures will spell "instant death" or anything. The party is good at getting multiple sneak attacks (every freaking round) and doing heavy damage. They tend to take down "appropriate" encounters without breaking a sweat, and based on past experiences with goblins, big mobs of minions aren't really a threat. To make lemures a challenge I'd probably have to bump their number closer to 10 or 20, or make a swarm of them.Ahhh that another Bearded Devil he summons not lemures??? My moneys on him summoning another bearded devil and I bet that summon one summons another... It's what makes hell so dangerous.
No it isn't.
A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return from whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require material components costing more than 1 gp unless those components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are awarded for defeating summoned monsters.
Not that you can't have the summoned devil do that anyway, but it is specifically disallowed. Can you imagine villains and/or characters trying the trick you described?
Ugh.
@Chuck That's useful to know, thanks. Would you be able to point me to where in the rules you found that? (I like to be able to jot down a page number)
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Gluttony what you are looking for in references for Hell in Pathfinder is in Book of the Damned - Volume I.
Now being an old Planescape GM I can certainly say I've thrown my players into Hell at early levels, but in every case some plot device (legal technicalities, incriminating information for blackmail, etc.) is needed to shield them from the full forces of Hell.
Your group is a bunch of infiltrators with no divine support so I would definitely stick to some Arcane chicanery to wrangle the soul back. The contract devil and a fiddle playing contest (skill challenge) is a definitely go to idea! I like the imp as the delivery vehicle for the soul and a bearded devil as muscle.
Ok to challenge their stealth Hell Hounds are pretty perfect 1st line of defense especially with scent. Next you drop a few alarm spells at key strong points (like doors) or better yet make the door a guardian unto itself (animate objects). Hell is a chance to throw out the really bizarre ideas!
I can definitely see an old western church or mission with a couple Hell Hounds and some Dia de Los Muertos skeletal champions milling about like undead ranch hands.
--between a Vrock and a hard place
A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return from whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require material components costing more than 1 gp unless those components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are awarded for defeating summoned monsters.Not that you can't have the summoned devil do that anyway, but it is specifically disallowed. Can you imagine villains and/or characters trying the trick you described?
I use that d% chance not a chance of success/failure, but rather as the chance that the summoner has a pre-existing infernal contract with a potential summonee.
Bearded Devils don't just show up to help out their buddy/BFF. This is the summoner calling in a favor the summonee can't refuse.
Even more, I treat the d% as a diminishing return. Having an infernal contract for summoning is to devils as magic items are to adventurers;
the higher your status and the more powerful you are, the more and better you have.
It then follows the summonee is less powerful and has fewer options, that's why they are the summonee rather than summoner.
In play, a bearded devil has a 50% chance. Let's say he succeeds by rolling a 25.
I treat the newly summoned bearded devil as having a 25% chance instead of a 50% chance, to reflect that power difference.
Eventually those summoned are only further summoning the bottom of the barrel; those of lowest status who have no favors to call in.
@Chuck That's useful to know, thanks. Would you be able to point me to where in the rules you found that? (I like to be able to jot down a page number)
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary p. 304.
I actually got the information I posted from www.d20pfsrd.com
A creature with the summon ability can summon other specific creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return from whence they came after 1 hour. A creature summoned in this way cannot use any spells or spell-like abilities that require material components costing more than 1 gp unless those components are supplied, nor can it use its own summon ability for 1 hour. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Will saves, caster level checks, and concentration checks. No experience points are awarded for defeating summoned monsters.Not that you can't have the summoned devil do that anyway, but it is specifically disallowed. Can you imagine villains and/or characters trying the trick you described?I use that d% chance not a chance of success/failure, but rather as the chance that the summoner has a pre-existing infernal contract with a potential summonee.
Bearded Devils don't just show up to help out their buddy/BFF. This is the summoner calling in a favor the summonee can't refuse.
Even more, I treat the d% as a diminishing return. Having an infernal contract for summoning is to devils as magic items are to adventurers;
the higher your status and the more powerful you are, the more and better you have.
It then follows the summonee is less powerful and has fewer options, that's why they are the summonee rather than summoner.In play, a bearded devil has a 50% chance. Let's say he succeeds by rolling a 25.
I treat the newly summoned bearded devil as having a 25% chance instead of a 50% chance, to reflect that power difference.
Eventually those summoned are only further summoning the bottom of the barrel; those of lowest status who have no favors to call in.
I remember the reasoning for not summoning by the one summoned is this - Summoning is asking for a favor of another being. They are basically gaining or paying off an IOU. Why would they bother to put themselves in debt to another devil OR use their resources to help they one summoning them? The summoned devil has no incentive to "waste" their summoning ability.
The only way to do it is to make Hell into Fluffy Candy Sunshine land, with the population consisting of idiots. Here's why.
As mentioned above- Demons want souls too. Good aligned outsiders want to FREE souls. Neither of these two can do it. Why? Basically, Hell is hard to steal from.
On a similar note- The ability to travel into Hell in a pinpoint location is an ability that clearly has not been mastered even by the above parties, or they'd have done it more often. If ANYONE can do it, they are extremely powerful. So WHY is this power being entrusted to this weak group of people? If someone can make a scroll or item for this, then they must clearly be at least a high enough level to planewalk, if not higher to pinpoint a guarded location. Why isn't this person and his similar-leveled buddies going? Basically, Hell is hard to get to.
Third bit- Devils don't WANT you to take their souls. They will use every trick they have, which includes the (also mentioned) hostile environment, the fact that there are literally millions of other devils nearby, the fact that they can summon each other, the fact that they likely have traps, wards and guards around their area, and the fact that evil doesn't play fair. A Pit Fiend would LOVE to destroy the arrogant mortals who dared set foot alive in HIS land. Word getting out takes all of a message spell, alarm, scrying, loud yell, or sound of battle, and all of Hell will crash down upon them. Basically, they will use strategy. They are intelligent.
Fourth, as mentioned above as well, EVEN IF the players MIRACULOUSLY manage to sneak in and get this soul, once ANYONE knows, the humans will be hunted with retrievers, assassin devils, maybe even devil Lords, granted that such a farce took place. It would be a huge political bungle for Hell, and that would not fly. Basically, Hell is vengeful.
So, for this to work at this level, you would need to make Hell NOT hard to steal from, NOT hard to infiltrate, make the enemies NOT intelligent (enough to call for help or use strategy), and make hell NOT vengeful (assuming you want the party to live more than a week after, what with the assassins and all). At that point, you're not realy going to Hell. You're going to Fluffy Candy Sunshine land with a population of Idiots.