Which completely ignores balance. 'role-playing' and 'backstory' can justify ANYTHING.
We're talking party/character balance vs the mechanics of crafting.
==Aelryinth
It does not, however, say that the crafted item only counts for half when calculating the characters current wealth, which is what Irontruth was asking for.
It doesn't need to. He's asking a question in a way that can later be used to say "so you can only have x gp worth of item afterall, huh?". That's not what WBL is for from a players perspective. The paragraphs after the WBL table are to instruct a GM in its use. For a players point of view all it represents is how much gold you get to start. A character coming across a treasure horde that consists of gp that is split evenly can make an item that is worth twice as much.
All I can say to that is that this is Pathfinder, not 3.5. Pathfinder may technically be 3.5 compatible because it's based on the same D20 system, but there's a lot of nuance between the two. If you mix and match rules together you eventually don't have either but some amalgamation of the two. Pathfinder works as is. Why does everyone deserve the same economic ability? Should a party with a paladin let everyone smit evil? Should a party with a cleric let everyone channel energy? Should a party with a character who took Rich Parents let everyone start at 900 gp? I highly doubt it. If a character is nice enough to do things for other players that's awesome. However, if the other characters want guaranteed access to that ability they should invest in it themselves.The original rule stems from 3.5, which was that you needed 8 hours of basically uninterrupted time to forge an item. If there was any meaningful interruption, you lost that entire's day work. Like,say, combat, or any random encounter that drew you away from the careful, solemn mindset needed for item creation.
the PF revision is a nod to adventurers who want to get SOME benefit out of crafting, in the face of the rapid leveling which most AP's require. (Cite: The Carrion Crown, which basically is a run from one dungeon to the next, levelling madly the whole time. No Item Creation time is going to be available.)
As soon as you allow the PF ruleset AND give a Crafter the required time, you get into the sorts of imbalance problems that have been noted on previous pages.
500 gp a day is 62.5 gp/hour. Unless you can everyone ELSE in the party something to do which is worth 125 gp/day, the Crafter is going to pull ahead 'while adventuring'. If there actually is any down time, he's +1000 GP ahead while the rest of the party does nothing.
Find a balance for that. The PF rules aren't about balance, they are about being able to use the feat when originally you could not.
==Aelryinth
3.5 did essentially the same thing PF did when Eberron came out, using the homonculus rules. Make the original crafting check, and your homonculus could go ahead and pour in your 1000 gp/day while you went out and adventured. basically you needed to invest 1 day into making ANY item, and the homonculous would finish it for you.
It did NOT address the imbalance the feat created. And you're kind of talking around the balance feature.
900 gp is nice as a starting feature, but in the long run meaningless. By level 5, it's pocket change.
+64k over the rest of the party by 10th? that is NOT pocket change. That's major advantage. And potentially +800k gp at level 20 can be game breaking.
The crafting feats and doubling gold is a massive advantage, and make no mistake about it. That's why accounting for time is so important.
==Aelryinth
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The WBL table is meaningless unless you are playing in PFS. If you are palying in a home game it is up to the GM what he gives to his players not some table printed in a book. Besides the WBL table is keyed for a low fanstay game look in the GMG it tells you to use a multiplier if you
play in a high fanstay or epic fanstay game.
Unless you are a lazy GM and don't build encounters to fit your players and only use Pazio AP's you deserve what you get in your game. Pazio
builds thier AP's and Modules for a low fanstay setting and that is what the WBL table represents.
AS I said in a earlier post the crafting system is broken except IMO weapons crafting. You cannnot get a staff of any quailty before 10th level and thats just wrong you cannot get a holy avenger before 15th level [thats byying other things like armor and other things you need to survive to el 15] I have an el 11 Paladin in PFS and his most expensive item s a sliver smite braclet 20000gp Imo thats chicken feed IMO. I have excepted this for PFS as that is what the DEVs want for PFS but by no means will I as a GM inflict that on my players I will key an adventure so my players have the most fun. Don't let some table rule your games you as a GM must do that yourself.
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Which completely ignores balance. 'role-playing' and 'backstory' can justify ANYTHING.
We're talking party/character balance vs the mechanics of crafting.
==Aelryinth
the crafter also blew feats on crafting, and because 10th level is pretty close to campaign end, he lost crafting time he could have had if he had joined a lot earlier, i'm just giving it back. the other PCs had plenty of crafting time.
skill points don't have as much meaning as feats, and the rogue could have just as easily placed those ranks in Craft (Tailoring) and gone the master craftsman route. i'm sure tailoring can cover most slots, with the exception of rings, armor and eyes.
the fighter would be gaining XP and looting treasure in the Arena, that would be an explanation of his level and gear.
Why is a 10th level crafter close to campaign end? You say that like there's some sort of rule on how high a character can be or how long a campaign goes on. What if the campaign is starting at level 10? Or level 14? Or level 20 and everyone's epic characters?
Standard fantasy, actually, but your point is made.
Agreed. The caster isn't 'blowing' a feat on Crafting. He's massively leveraging his wealth by taking CWI! He ain't 'blowing' bloody anything!
And now you're poo-pooing a feat investment and the value of skill ranks.
The crafter mage can just take the feat, and his class provides all the synergy needed.
The FIGHTER has to blow skill ranks, of which he has precious few, AND a general feat on Magical Artisan, AND another feat on CMA&A or CWI.
Clearly, there's imbalance going on here. Two feats + Skill Ranks vs Just a feat?
More imbalance. Not to mention that it's going to be hard for the fighter or rogue to use the ability without resorting to scrolls, wands or secondary caster. And if it's arms and armor, has nowhere near the utility of CWI. A mage can go his ENTIRE CAREER using nothing but Wondrous Items and perhaps Rings, you know?
==Aelryinth
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Agreed.
And now you're poo-pooing a feat investment and the value of skill ranks.
The crafter mage can just take the feat, and his class provides all the synergy needed.
The FIGHTER has to blow skill ranks, of which he has precious few, AND a general feat on Magical Artisan, AND another feat on CMA&A or CWI.
Clearly, there's imbalance going on here. Two feats + Skill Ranks vs Just a feat?
More imbalance. Not to mention that it's going to be hard for the fighter or rogue to use the ability without resorting to scrolls, wands or secondary caster. And if it's arms and armor, has nowhere near the utility of CWI. A mage can go his ENTIRE CAREER using nothing but Wondrous Items and perhaps Rings, you know?
==Aelryinth
Actually, no. For a caster to be "good" he also needs to be careful with feat selection with at least a few metamagic feats. They can make or break a character.
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Why is a 10th level crafter close to campaign end? You say that like there's some sort of rule on how high a character can be or how long a campaign goes on. What if the campaign is starting at level 10? Or level 14? Or level 20 and everyone's epic characters?
in my personal home game experience, 10th level is usually either campaign end or close to it. it's extremely rare we exceed 15th, 14th is usually our final adventure of the camapaign.
the caster also needs ranks in spellcraft.
and i find it to be stupid for a fighter to dump intellegence or a wizard to dump strength. the low int fighter hammered himself in the groin for an extra bonus to hit and damage, and the wizard chose to give up carrying capacity to get +1 to DCs.
everything has weight, and a fighter who dumps intellegence cut himself off from half the list of combat feats.
Actually, no. For a caster to be "good" he also needs to be careful with feat selection with at least a few metamagic feats. They can make or break a character.Agreed.
And now you're poo-pooing a feat investment and the value of skill ranks.
The crafter mage can just take the feat, and his class provides all the synergy needed.
The FIGHTER has to blow skill ranks, of which he has precious few, AND a general feat on Magical Artisan, AND another feat on CMA&A or CWI.
Clearly, there's imbalance going on here. Two feats + Skill Ranks vs Just a feat?
More imbalance. Not to mention that it's going to be hard for the fighter or rogue to use the ability without resorting to scrolls, wands or secondary caster. And if it's arms and armor, has nowhere near the utility of CWI. A mage can go his ENTIRE CAREER using nothing but Wondrous Items and perhaps Rings, you know?
==Aelryinth
Untrue. A mage who wants to bork the system needs Wondrous Item and Rings...that's it.
Metamagic feats are entirely optional, and offer far less return on investment. They are also usually tied (but not always) to damage spells, which are among the least efficient uses of a wizard's time.
==Aelryinth
Why is a 10th level crafter close to campaign end? You say that like there's some sort of rule on how high a character can be or how long a campaign goes on. What if the campaign is starting at level 10? Or level 14? Or level 20 and everyone's epic characters?in my personal home game experience, 10th level is usually either campaign end or close to it. it's extremely rare we exceed 15th, 14th is usually our final adventure of the camapaign.
The normal AP goes to 15+, with some of them reaching level 20. we can't use that as a baseline...
But even then, having twice as much loot focused on covering a specific weakness by level 10 can totally skew the system. +64k basically allows you to take +2 armor and shield to +5 armor and shield. That's a +6 AC advantage...which basically makes you nigh unhittable by level appropriate encounters.
==Aelryinth
Untrue. A mage who wants to bork the system needs Wondrous Item and Rings...that's it.
Metamagic feats are entirely optional, and offer far less return on investment. They are also usually tied (but not always) to damage spells, which are among the least efficient uses of a wizard's time.
==Aelryinth
They will be decent, yes. However, they won't be as good as they can be. And, most metamagic feats effect options of who you can cast something on, how it affects your area spells, etc. Those that directly impact damage are actually in the minority. A listing for you:
Bouncing Spell (Metamagic)
Burning Spell (Metamagic)
Concussive Spell (Metamagic)
Dazing Spell (Metamagic)
Disruptive Spell (Metamagic)
Echoing Spell (Metamagic)
Ectoplasmic Spell (Metamagic)
Elemental Spell (Metamagic)
Flaring Spell (Metamagic)
Focused Spell (Metamagic)
Intensified Spell (Metamagic)
Lingering Spell (Metamagic)
Merciful Spell (Metamagic)
Persistent Spell (Metamagic)
Piercing Spell (Metamagic)
Reach Spell (Metamagic)
Rime Spell (Metamagic)
Selective Spell (Metamagic)
Sickening Spell (Metamagic)
Thanatopic Spell (Metamagic)
Threnodic Spell (Metamagic)
Thundering Spell (Metamagic)
Toppling Spell (Metamagic)
...I would also like to point out that magic item creation and sales is the single most profitable profession in the game.
A level 5 magic-user should focus on making magic items that cost 1000 gp each and every day. that's because that's the limit of what he can make, and so he should make them, and then sell them to people like the PC's at full price.
There is no Craft 'skill' that can potentially generate 500 gp in clear profit each and every day. It means that no spellcaster of level 5 or higher should ever participate in anything that doesn't generate 500 gp in clear profit per day, because magic item construction is that much more lucrative.
one year of crafting, 180k in clear profit as long as you make items worth at least 1000 gp or a direct multiple thereof every day. A level 5 caster focused on making and selling minor items should be hideously wealthy by any measure.
It is this 2:1, and 500 gp/day factor, that totally imbalances magical item construction. In real terms, no caster should EVER adventure...for no risk, they can make 180k a year, free and clear.
The pricing of items should be based on caster level (which restricts what you can make.
Picture the situation before you. There's dozens of level 5 casters pumping out wondrous items worth at least 1000 gp, each and every day. What would logically happen?
The price of low level items would tank. The price would be the value of a day's labor (magical crafting) + the cost to create. This would only be amplified by the fact magical items don't wear out and persist forever.
Thus,in a 'real world', cheap magic items would basically be cost + a day's labor, tops. The market would be flooded with them.
On the other hand, a 12th level caster can make +6 stat items. A 15th level caster can make +5 items. While their per day limit is the same as a level 5, their POTENTIAL is far, far higher and distinctly uncommon. Price should reflect that there are far fewer of these casters, there is immense demand for their
(waves hand)
You are ignoring the central theme of the post.
level 5 casters cannot make +5 weapons and +6 enhancement tools, many higher level staves/wands, and the like.
At the same time, you cannot make a LOT of these items, because it takes a lot of TIME to make them.
Thus, the TIME of a high level caster should be worth FAR FAR more then a 5th level caster.
Seriously, a 5th level caster can churn out 1000 gp/product a day. A 17th level caster can churn out 1000 gp/product/day.
But the 17th level caster might be the ONLY ONE IN THE KINGDOM. The 5th level caster might be one of DOZENS. He can make +1 or +2 enhancement items...that's IT.
In the real world, you'd pay tons more for the time of the 17th level caster, and a lot LESS for the time of the 5th level caster. You can't just find another Archmage to make your Pearl of Power (9th)...you can find another level 5 caster around the block.
What the mechanic should be is cost = 500 gp/day + Time based on Caster Level.
A 5th level caster should make, what, 5 gp/day? That still means 150 gp/month, which is pretty good for someone churning out cheap magic items.
The 17th level caster? Same cost in COMPONENTS...but his TIME is worth TONS. Maybe 2, 3000 gp/day. Hiring him to make a low level item is a waste of time...he's going to charge you for his full time if you have him make a Ring +1 Prot or a Staff/Magi, on a per day basis.
The Item Creation rules don't take this time value of a caster into account when assigning costs to create, or relative scarcity.
==Aelryinth
Sorry, for the 2nd part of your post, Khrysaor, a PC can most certainly make things and sell them for full cost. LOOT items sell for half, because you are assumed to sell them to an intermediary who turns around and sells them to another final end user. Convenient and easy to follow.
A PC who makes something on Commision certainly sells it for full price. It's just that 'down time' making stuff for NPC's is not a normal part of game play. Certainly a PC can get as much for stuff he creates for someone else as any NPC, barring role-playing interference like Guilds and stuff.
But the market is going to be full of +1 low level crap, and +5 Holy Crap items are going to be incredibly rare. In real life, he's going to have problems unloading the low level stuff because of price competition, whereas the rare high level stuff will go at a premium because it IS so rare.
This economics. Just go look at D&D Online, in Eberron. As soon as you have access to +5 stuff, the value of lower level stuff drops like a rock...nobody wants it when they can have the higher level stuff. Same mechanic in a real magic world...the value of cheap stuff is Cost to Make + value of time of the low level caster...whose time isn't going to be worth nearly what the time of the Archmage is.
==Aelryinth
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Actually, no. For a caster to be "good" he also needs to be careful with feat selection with at least a few metamagic feats. They can make or break a character.Agreed.
And now you're poo-pooing a feat investment and the value of skill ranks.
The crafter mage can just take the feat, and his class provides all the synergy needed.
The FIGHTER has to blow skill ranks, of which he has precious few, AND a general feat on Magical Artisan, AND another feat on CMA&A or CWI.
Clearly, there's imbalance going on here. Two feats + Skill Ranks vs Just a feat?
More imbalance. Not to mention that it's going to be hard for the fighter or rogue to use the ability without resorting to scrolls, wands or secondary caster. And if it's arms and armor, has nowhere near the utility of CWI. A mage can go his ENTIRE CAREER using nothing but Wondrous Items and perhaps Rings, you know?
==Aelryinth
Untrue. A mage who wants to bork the system needs Wondrous Item and Rings...that's it.
Metamagic feats are entirely optional, and offer far less return on investment. They are also usually tied (but not always) to damage spells, which are among the least efficient uses of a wizard's time.
==Aelryinth
due to all your analisys theoretical numbers, you must have forgotten the key moments where your life was saved by a fireball. most theoretical stuff falls apart in practice.
it's a cooperative game, not an individualist game. the guy who has his "Extra" crafting time is compensating for the PCs who looted the corpse of ther dead comrade and have his stuff split 3 ways. while new guy got an extra 32,000. the new guy would probably be denied a share. the reason i say extra 32,000 is because that is the best likely benefit you get out of CWI. even if you don't buy weapons and armor, you still need rings, and consumables like wands, potions, components, and scrolls. and those are consumable. even as a caster.
It's 'history' the other characters don't have. It's balanced. They spent the time adventuring and gaining levels. he's got to catch up.
==Aelryinth
The other characters do have history. It was being played out while the other guy was doing his thing before joining your group. If a character took CWI at level 3 and is joining at level 10 where WBL is 62000gp and he joins with 62000gp in items to match what everyone else has, he has no reason to take CWI since you can select any item you want and do not have a monetary gain over time that comes with adventuring. Not all treasure is items and not all treasure is gold. This is why you cannot double your WBL unless the GM is going to allow you it all in gold but some of it must be gold as gold is a very common treasure. And if not gained in some treasure horde, items are sold and gold is split amongst the party. To say the crafter wouldn't have benefitted from his gold over the guys that just sold and bought other things is to deny the mechanics of the feat.
If a crafter gets ahead of other players because his feats allowed him to and now to balance this the GM provides 'extra' treasure for the rest of the party so the crafter can't increase his gap is penalizing the crafter for being able to use his money to get ahead. To limit the crafter to the WBL and reduce everyone elses in the party is effectively reducing everyone's WBL and penalizing everyone.
It's the mechanics of the feat that are broken so that they don't adhere to RAI.
Your example goes against the post, and logic.
Tell me how you're going to provide loot to everyone else in the party and NOT TO THE CRAFTER, without looking exactly like you are singling him out for 'punishment' for having a crafter feat.
Because if you have 40k in loot, and you divide it equally among everyone, the crafter is going to take his 10k and turn it into 20 of items.
If you give everyone else 10k in loot and the crafter NOTHING, and thus bring everyone up to par, the Crafter should NOT EVEN HAVE THE FEAT. It's useless.
===Aelryinth
Actually, no. For a caster to be "good" he also needs to be careful with feat selection with at least a few metamagic feats. They can make or break a character.Agreed.
And now you're poo-pooing a feat investment and the value of skill ranks.
The crafter mage can just take the feat, and his class provides all the synergy needed.
The FIGHTER has to blow skill ranks, of which he has precious few, AND a general feat on Magical Artisan, AND another feat on CMA&A or CWI.
Clearly, there's imbalance going on here. Two feats + Skill Ranks vs Just a feat?
More imbalance. Not to mention that it's going to be hard for the fighter or rogue to use the ability without resorting to scrolls, wands or secondary caster. And if it's arms and armor, has nowhere near the utility of CWI. A mage can go his ENTIRE CAREER using nothing but Wondrous Items and perhaps Rings, you know?
==Aelryinth
Untrue. A mage who wants to bork the system needs Wondrous Item and Rings...that's it.
Metamagic feats are entirely optional, and offer far less return on investment. They are also usually tied (but not always) to damage spells, which are among the least efficient uses of a wizard's time.
==Aelryinth
due to all your analisys theoretical numbers, you must have forgotten the key moments where your life was saved by a fireball. most theoretical stuff falls apart in practice.
it's a cooperative game, not an individualist game. the guy who has his "Extra" crafting time is compensating for the PCs who looted the corpse of ther dead comrade and have his stuff split 3 ways. while new guy got an extra 32,000. the new guy would probably be denied a share. the reason i say extra 32,000 is because that is the best likely benefit you get out of CWI. even if you don't buy weapons and armor, you still need rings, and consumables like wands, potions, components, and scrolls. and those are consumable. even as a caster.
"Being saved by the Fireball" is more an edge case then "being saved by your AC being 5 higher because of Crafting feats". Damage spells are not a good example to use...especially one maxing at 35 average damage when monsters have 100 or more at level 10.
A Spellcaster needs Wondrous Items and Rings. Potions and scrolls are consumables and thus used up and replaced for chump change...the only way they are influential is you are making VERY high level stuff.
Wands are strictly optional, and usually for utility spells you don't want to memorize. Surely you aren't going to use them for frequent spells that rely on CL and Casting Stat to be effective!
Note that using Consumables does not 'permanently lower' your WBL. basically, totally WBL is 'supposed' to include some consumables. As you use them up, you replace them, and WBL stays static. Technically, you could have ALL consumables and they'd jsut be continually replaced, by the WBL rules (which would give your GM a migraine).
==Aelryinth
Sorry, for the 2nd part of your post, Khrysaor, a PC can most certainly make things and sell them for full cost. LOOT items sell for half, because you are assumed to sell them to an intermediary who turns around and sells them to another final end user. Convenient and easy to follow.
A PC who makes something on Commision certainly sells it for full price. It's just that 'down time' making stuff for NPC's is not a normal part of game play. Certainly a PC can get as much for stuff he creates for someone else as any NPC, barring role-playing interference like Guilds and stuff.
But the market is going to be full of +1 low level crap, and +5 Holy Crap items are going to be incredibly rare. In real life, he's going to have problems unloading the low level stuff because of price competition, whereas the rare high level stuff will go at a premium because it IS so rare.
This economics. Just go look at D&D Online, in Eberron. As soon as you have access to +5 stuff, the value of lower level stuff drops like a rock...nobody wants it when they can have the higher level stuff. Same mechanic in a real magic world...the value of cheap stuff is Cost to Make + value of time of the low level caster...whose time isn't going to be worth nearly what the time of the Archmage is.
==Aelryinth
Your example exists outside the rule and is GM fiat.Selling Treasure
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.
Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
How is making something for commission GM Fiat?
"I'll make you a Ring of Prot+1 for 2000 gp, the market price" to Mr. NPC who needs it.
"Okay" he says, pleased to have a spellcaster who'll spend the time to make an item for him.
Bing, money.
Now, if he's justly blindly making Rings hoping someone buys them, well, he's either a full time merchant or selling to an intermediary, who is going to charge a fee.
Making stuff and selling it at cost would NEVER happen in the real world, and there's no rule that says it happens in the game. The rule applies only to LOOT.
===Aelryinth
Dude, what you are arguing is the RULES, which I understand fully, and trying to argue against a FIX to them.
I'm perfectly aware of how the rules work. I'm also perfectly aware that the rules would never survive real economics, and how Crafting rules bork the system because they don't abide by RL economics.
Note that 4E flat out rules a 1/10th sale price and the inability to make anything of meaningful value for your level. This is another way of devaluing the item creation process, but they strongly encourage the GM to give the players what they want as they level to get around the entire problem.
Unfortunately you can't base an economy on this kind of stuff.
==Aelryinth
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not every encounter is against one foe of CR=APL. usually, it's multiple smaller monsters that make it up. and classed humanoids are assumed to be more common than most high level monsters.
APL 10 is rarely placed against 1 CR10 foe that can die in one round. try (Per PC) 4 CR6 or 8 CR 4 for an appropriate APL10 encounter. CR 6 and CR 4 opponents don't have 100+ health.
I stated the rule as written in the CRB. I don't know what else to tell you. If your GM says there's an NPC that wants and item and commisions you to do so this is the GM choosing to do this and is fiat. The rule specifically says PC's sell all items at 1/2 market value except for trade goods that are sold at full value. If a GM is letting you sell items other than trade goods for full market value you can turn that item into two of the one created or one that is twice the value. This is breaking the system beyond it's current state and WBL would be even more skewed for a crafter.
and yet this is exactly what NPC's do. Are you saying NPC's can thus do something PC's cannot?
==Aelryinth
not every encounter is against one foe of CR=APL. usually, it's multiple smaller monsters that make it up. and classed humanoids are assumed to be more common than most high level monsters.
APL 10 is rarely placed against 1 CR10 foe that can die in one round. try (Per PC) 4 CR6 or 8 CR 4 for an appropriate APL10 encounter. CR 6 and CR 4 opponents don't have 100+ health.
Counter example. Try 2 CR 10's or a CR 12 which is a moderate challenge for a level 10. Or a CR 14 which is a major challenge for the whole party.
yeah, fireball that guy. I think not.
Cleaning up low level mooks is not a good example. and +5 AC would make you basically invulnerable to said mooks...why would your fighters need the fireball? Sending level 4's against level 10's? Come on. They aren't going to be able to touch most level 10's...that's not an encounter.
==Aelryinth
Guess I'm really confused because for the last 6 pages I was arguing that the RAW allows a crafter to break WBL since craft feats will grant a player better use of his money. And this does need to be fixed. But as it stands a character can do this and anything being done about it is purely GM discretion and not a rule.Dude, what you are arguing is the RULES, which I understand fully, and trying to argue against a FIX to them.
I'm perfectly aware of how the rules work. I'm also perfectly aware that the rules would never survive real economics, and how Crafting rules bork the system because they don't abide by RL economics.
Note that 4E flat out rules a 1/10th sale price and the inability to make anything of meaningful value for your level. This is another way of devaluing the item creation process, but they strongly encourage the GM to give the players what they want as they level to get around the entire problem.
Unfortunately you can't base an economy on this kind of stuff.
==Aelryinth
Oh, well, I agree with you. the rules are imbalanced and a fix is required.
:)
==Aelryinth
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as said by Khrys, crafting for commision on an NPC's Behalf is DM Fiat. the DM created the Demand. and ignored a specific rule. it is usually the PCs who commision an npc to craft the item.
who knows, a few levels later, that crafter the PCs have commissioned might join the party when they are higher level and he deems it appropriate. crafting some of his own stuff with his profits.
DM fiat is yet 'possible'. The PC advertises for his services and joins the rank of crafting NPC's, perhaps for a guild or something.
He should earn just as much as any crafting NPC, not 0, thusly. Having PC's who make 0 crafting and NPC's making 500 gp/day profit is totally borked and would be exploited hard on by any PC's advertising their services at less then the NPC's, and what is a DM going to do? say all the nobles buy their potions and +1 swords for full price instead of 25% off? Economic idiocy is not usually found among the merchant noble class.
NPC's do indeed follow the rules for PC's..or are worse. Not better.
==Aelryinth
the intent of the Creation rules is for PC's to get exactly what they want by converting time and gold into items without selling stuff in towns.
The effect with the interaction with the 50% sell rule and 'you can buy anything' is a complete borking of the WBL system.
If you sell at full, there's no need for the feat and it's an unneeded cost unless you never visit a city.
If you sell at half, Crafting doubles your WBL by using money to make items instead of selling them (if possible).
As long as the rules can't address the imbalance, then what you have is GM Fiat to try and control things.
==Aelryinth
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not every encounter is against one foe of CR=APL. usually, it's multiple smaller monsters that make it up. and classed humanoids are assumed to be more common than most high level monsters.
APL 10 is rarely placed against 1 CR10 foe that can die in one round. try (Per PC) 4 CR6 or 8 CR 4 for an appropriate APL10 encounter. CR 6 and CR 4 opponents don't have 100+ health.
Counter example. Try 2 CR 10's or a CR 12 which is a moderate challenge for a level 10. Or a CR 14 which is a major challenge for the whole party.
yeah, fireball that guy. I think not.
Cleaning up low level mooks is not a good example. and +5 AC would make you basically invulnerable to said mooks...why would your fighters need the fireball? Sending level 4's against level 10's? Come on. They aren't going to be able to touch most level 10's...that's not an encounter.
==Aelryinth
i guess you got me there, but that one CR14 foe still dies in one round, but now, it has a severe disadvantage called action economy. at least the mooks could use guns, alchemical items, and difficult terrain en masse to freak out the party.
how about 16 CR 1/2s targetting the same PC? each lobbing cheap alchemical items at the PCs? it's a CR10 encounter that may badly injure a 10th level PC or few. you can double it for +2 CR or quadruple it for +4.
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the extra starting gold is not "Doubled", it's close, and before you say consumables are replaced by pocket change. all that pocket change adds up, and your wealth is based on a percentage of your findings. gold doesn't magically replace itself either, you have to find it and save it long enough to afford the item. you can create eligible items for half price if you have the feats. eleigible items doesn't mean every item. and some items have costs beyond the magical enhancements.
not every monster has treasure, and even if destroyed or stolen doesn't count towards your combat ability, but it does count towards the total treasure you have accumulated. and finding treasure requires you to adventure. so doubling your money in pure equipment isn't always the best idea. spell components cost money too. a campaign has an eventual ending. you can't always create sidequests for more wealth. so consumables aren't as easily replacable as one thinks.
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This is clearly something to be left up to the individual GM, as it is most certainly a play style issue, and not something that needs an official ruling. Favorite my post if you agree.
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or just use the half price method and have a DM with enough awareness to have decent judgement that doesn't involve penalizing the crafter.
a lot of "Broken" Cohorts break the rules. a Cohort is a heroic NPC, meaning they have the elite array and NPC wealth. guess leadership isn't too broken. and they are always a minimum of 2 or more levels below the party. a cohort is no stronger than a sentient animal companion.
a lot of "Broken" eidolons are also the result of broken or misread rules. or the summoner gimping himself to beef up the eidolon.
crafting may give more than an AP provides, but not everyone plays with APs. some DMs actually write thier own campaigns.
i don't mind that crafting gives you a discount. the discount is the primary benefit of the feat, since by starting higher level, you can pick your gear ala carte anyway.
The primary benefit isn't saving money. The primary benefit is what's listed in the feat description, which is making the items of your choice.
You and other might argue that saving money is a side effect, but it certainly isn't the primary benefit.
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i don't mind that crafting gives you a discount. the discount is the primary benefit of the feat, since by starting higher level, you can pick your gear ala carte anyway.The primary benefit isn't saving money. The primary benefit is what's listed in the feat description, which is making the items of your choice.
You and other might argue that saving money is a side effect, but it certainly isn't the primary benefit.
but the benefit of choosing your equipment ala carte is redundant when you start higher level because wealth by level already lets you choose your equipment ala carte anyway. so the only remaining benefit is the discount, which is what those who take the feat are usually after. and if all your gear is crafted, who is to say you won't craft for your allies for the material cost?
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The Craft feats let you have more choice after character generation. Unless you never gain levels and more treasure during the game, someone with a crafting feat can take what he finds in dungeons and shops and turn it into what he wants. Non-crafters are stuck with luck of the draw.
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The Craft feats let you have more choice after character generation. Unless you never gain levels and more treasure during the game, someone with a crafting feat can take what he finds in dungeons and shops and turn it into what he wants. Non-crafters are stuck with luck of the draw.
i guess there is that, but the further in the campaign you generate the character, the less that benefit applies. at least with the discount, you can get back part of what you lost. not every character stays in the party since the campaign's beginning. a lot of things can change the roster.