After a few days of playing Skyrim, one aspect I find enjoyable is fighting something very strong - dying and then knowing I need to beef up before I battle them again.
The challenge of beating a tough foe that can't be beaten in the first try is exciting.
How do I capture this excitement in the game w/out killing of the players?
I want there to be challenges that can't be conquered in the first try or at the current level. It would be cool to let the PC's run through a dungeon or fight a big bad guy and fail, but not die. They then would be motivated to gear up and level up in order to accomplish the goal.
What are some creative ways to create this tension - this goal setting in the game. I want the players to feel like they can die, but I don't want the game to be over.
Just bear in mind... very very strongly... that most tabletop RPG players do not actually consider running as a valid option. They will avoid it tooth and nail, assuming they are invincible, that you wouldn't throw something at them they can't overcome, or that you're trying to kill them and they should just play along because you are 'obviously' done with the campaign, or worst of all, that fleeing is just as likely to end with them dead as staying and fighting, so why bother?
So you need to make it painfully obvious that they are supposed to flee and make it just as obvious that this is an option which will succeed. Remember, mechanically, fleeing is just a good way to get killed with your back turned in most cases; your villian will pretty much have to let them go.
I cannot stress this enough; you're probably going to have to suggest fleeing to them, unless they're a very exceptional group, because my observation has been that most groups do not consider fleeing as a combat option until its too late to be effective.
+1 to Krispy. Things that work in video games don't translate well to tabletop games. I am not saying I have never run in a game, but at least one other person has to die before I even consider it. When the second person drops I might try to leave then.
Unless you know the group very well, and you plan to fudge dice this is nigh impossible to pull off.
Just bear in mind... very very strongly... that most tabletop RPG players do not actually consider running as a valid option.
Yes - I have observed this - my guys never run no matter what. In my one attempt to create an impossible battle, they just stayed and fought. I ended up having some NPCs join in to help so they would not die.
I do want to let the PC's know that running away will always be a valid option in my game. This will have to be stressed. I want this condition to exist so they can get a taste of what they will fight in the future so they can get excited and have something to work toward.
I think this will drive the players to want to improve all that much more.
But I would like more advice on how to create this tension - Can I have them encounter unbeatable foes or circumstances with fleeing being an option? Or maybe they are given a magical device that allows them to telaport out of any situation?
But I would like more advice on how to create this tension - Can I have them encounter unbeatable foes or circumstances with fleeing being an option? Or maybe they are given a magical device that allows them to telaport out of any situation?
Have them meet a more experienced adventuring party of heroes. Give them a bit of character. Make it clear they're like the party, but just a bit better.
Have the bad guy utterly ROFLcurbpwnstomp them where the party can see, but the villain is not neccessarily aware of theeir presence, and where the party cannot help.
Bonus Time: If you can make the party like these other guys, have the villain leave them alive and have them be captured. Have rescuing them be a definite, discreet reason/goal to actually pursue greater power instead of just avoiding the big bad guy altogether.
Why not just have the BBG beat them down all the way, but have them not die, just go unconscious. Then, amazed by how easy the PCs were defeated "because they were unprepared saplings" the BBG has an underling promptly, dismissively, plop the party in the trash cart and hauled off to the trash heap half a mile outside the lair. The one they set fire to on every other day except sundays.
Events outside of both of the parties control end as it appears the PC's are losing, this can be done in a number of non railroading ways:
-Geographical features allow an observant party member to create a physical barrier between the party and foes for a short time (a weak ceiling or chandelier, extinguishing all light, weak floor in one or more spots, Large statue that can be toppled, a door with which the party has the key to lock, etc).
-Other enemies/mercenaries against the same foe as the party show up and try to attack him, the foe realizes that he is highly outnumbered and he retreats. The mercenaries can try to put his power into perspective.
-A large weather event makes finishing the fight impossible due to vision/movement/ranged attacks/casting checks/etc.
-The minions of the foe suddenly show that they are double crossing the foe and attempt to help the party, the foe retreats after finding that he is alone he retreats. The double crossing minions try to put his power into perspective.
The party somehow gets to fight the foe when he is out of his element, this allows you to calculate the as CR -2, then he gets resurrected or cloned or something else. He exacts revenge later and then later on there is a grudge match between him and the party once they are all on even terms.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
Heh, I had a group that would always a avoid a fight if there was any reason they believed they couldn't beat the fight.
With that, here is my answer to your question.
If you have the bad guy be an NPC, you can do a demonstration of power with plans to leave the PCs alive. I have done this a few times and it works well. The last time I did this, the players were a bit freaked out, but was more from the description I gave of the scene then the NPC.
I start by planning the encounter out as a scene with specific results instead of a traditional combat encounter. Have the scene planned so the PCs will be unaware of what is going to happen, and possibly unaware of the NPC in the first place. Make sure you can set the scene up in a way that you are in control, in this case the PCs are more observers then actual participants. Plan out the NPCs actions well, you don't want to improve too much on the spot, and come up with a reason the NPC doesn't kill the PCs. Plan out a dramatic exit.
Here is an example from a game I ran.
This was a modern psionic game. The only PC involved lived alone and followed a strict schedule. We discussed the schedule and determined that she finished the night off with reading a book. I found that to be a great starting point for the scene so I described the feeling that something wasn't right, that there was something off about her apartment. She got up and began inspecting the place, turning on lights all over the apartment as she did so. The windows were locked tight and the door was bolted, but she still had the feeling that there was something wrong. Then she noticed the living room light was out. She went and carefully inspected it, and saw that the light switch was off. As she went over to flip it back on the kitchen light went out. She tried to use a power to raise the light in the room but it wouldn't work, in fact it only grew darker. She decided to run to her room, and not only did she notice that the lights were out there, but she noticed that her feet were no longer touching the floor. Out of the shadows a figure appeared and they talked for a bit. The figure wanted to consume her, but it was going to play with her first. The PC was thrown violently into her room, and started suffocating as the air was drawn from her lungs. The PC used her powers to grab an antique knife and then lunged at the figure, stabbing it. Just as the PC was about to pass out air filled her lungs and the figure quickly moved away. "You are too weak for my tastes anyway, and if I had known you had such protection I would have been more prepared." the figure said before disappearing. The lights came back on.
So, I planned on the PC using the knife, which had a special ability that stops psionics for a short time in the person it stabs. I also planned on the figure being overconfident and thus out of armor and with no buffs. Also, I had a contingency plan ready in case things went sideways and the PC really did get killed. She was going to wake up the next day, not sure if it was a dream until a note was found saying that her assailant was disappointed in her power would return when she was stronger.
Another great example is in Curse of the Crimson Throne, where the main bad guy of the AP one shot kills another NPC in a brutal and unbelievable way. The PCs are unable to do anything about it because of distance to this event and the fact that they would get messed if they so much as drew a weapon.
One angle that works pretty well as long as you don't overuse it is to introduce encounters where winning or losing isn't precisely about the PC's survival. That is to say, they can all survive and still lose the encounter.
Maybe the PCs encounter an enemy first as part of a tournament or contest with combat that isn't to the death.
Or, maybe the bad guys' henchmen beat the PCs to the dungeon and they're trying to run off with the loot. The challenge isn't not to die -- the henchmen are mostly just trying to make a run for it -- but to keep them from escaping.
Or, maybe the PCs are trying to rescue children from a burning orphanage with fire elementals and the like inside torching the place. They're in some danger, sure, and they'll do some fighting, but winning or losing that encounter isn't really about their survival, it's about the children's survival. For more mercenary PCs, maybe they're trying to rescue a guy with information they want instead. Oooh, I'm sorry, as the burning building fell on him because you were too slow, it crushed his skull beyond Speak With Dead being possible.
You get the idea.
My suggestion is tricky but in your case I might recommend a Time Loop. You can drop the PC's over and over if need be without ever actually killing them. Place them in a large setting such as a dungeon or a tower where there is no escape and let them have at it over and over.
Be cautious though, plan ahead. I have seen situations like this go both very good and very bad...
What are some creative ways to create this tension - this goal setting in the game. I want the players to feel like they can die, but I don't want the game to be over.
The BBG isn’t trying to kill them for whatever reason. Perhaps the BBG is just toying with them for fun, or wants slaves or a fresh food source. Maybe the characters don’t even make it to the BBG, killing a minion or two but using up everything they have to do so.
|
Cinematic would be that the BBG wants to corrupt them. Frustrate them, force them to make bad/worse choices about which innocents to save, rub in their faces that they can't do anything to him, then let them stumble across a tool than might provide them hope... only it has strings attached. [probably to railroady for an RPG]
Another manipulation... what if one BBG is using the PCs to eliminate another BBG, a rival. He provides them with help, tips, etc., but occasional clues point to their benefactor not being what they imagine. Eventually they are confronted by "the good guys."
Actually did the time loop in a short run.
The PCs were getting killed over and over, to wake up alive. Then they got to a site where they could time loop and had to go back and be the reason they live.
Worked fine, as long as the jumps are limited in scope.
Each encounter was a potential TPK, as if they failed, their past selves really did die. Made for really good tension, especially when they realized there were 3 creatures in one battle when only 2 showed up the first time (and TPK'd them just fine without the 3rd.)
Otherwise,
Have the BBEG's objective have nothing to do with the PCs.
This way, he can care less whether he kills them, he's there for the maguffin or whatever. While the level 4 characters figure out how to get past the Stone Golem, the BBEG walks in, crushes the golem, and steals the maguffin. Maybe even nods to the PCs for leading him to the maguffin.
:)
PCs hate being pawns, so will likely seek vengeance on their own.
Had an epic BBEG Blue Dragon who the players met in early levels, seeing him beat a Cloud Giant that had been threatening them. While the dragon was in human form "for a challenge".
It was part of his taking the regional floating Cloud Giant citadel, and while he noted the party, he could care less about them.
Much later, via Scrying device at some local authorities, the PCs witnessed him trash some 20th level NPCs who were trying to wrest control of the citadel. He split them up and killed them in various nasty ways.
Given the dragon's aggressive power grabs, they knew someday they'd have to face him, despite having had some decent conversation with him.
Same party, at even lower levels, released some ancient entities (who took over the bodies of some NPCs they'd been traveling with.)
Had the 'evil NPC party' one-shot kill anything (mainly kobold NPCs) in their way with quickened blasting spells and offhand blows. Party learned fast and hid real well.
One PC did attempt a sling attack, much to the party's chagrin.
Luckily he rolled a 20 on the quickened baleful polymorph thrown his way in casual retribution.
Eventually, they hunted them down one by one.
In Champions, a fairly nonlethal game, there'd been an adventure with a very lethal opponent trapped with the heroes in an abandoned research station. (The PCs have to assemble enough knowledge to understand the creature's weaknesses and disable its powers.)
Advised first scene (since heroes are even bolder there), have it tear through a (relatively) impenetrable wall.
It's like playing Daredevil and watching the Hulk one-shot a tank.
"Guys, we're stuck in here with THAT?"
That monster was relatively slow, but not so slow they could stay in the same room and not get hit.
Had another campaign where the PCs were perpetually on the run, often scouting and hiding, and getting good opportunities to see just how tough the enemy leaders were.
Other options:
-Henchmen, that singly, the PCs fear. Have the BBEG slap those henchmen. Or be seen chatting idly with Balors.
-As in Champions example, environmental damage can be eye-opening. "He tosses the log/horse/building out of his way." "What!"
Remember, single BBEGs against parties can die much easier than desired so, it's a risky thing to have direct confrontation, and I've seen it backfire so have an 'out' up your sleeve that doesn't involve PC choices.
Run a prologue adventure where the players are all handed pre generated sheets, then have what ever your BBEG is going to be, hunt down these people and slaughter them. Then tell the players to grab their sheets and start the real adventure.
Thanks for all of the ideas on this one. I appreciate the feedback. I will be using some of your ideas in the future - I like the idea of the bad guy being more interested in something besides killing the party - so no direct confrontation required.
Time loop is cool. I have used some dream battles to a degree.
Having a pro-logue is cool, but would have limited use - beginning of a segment or adventure.
Having NPCs involved and demonstrating battles is a neat idea.
I also thought of having a trial run by someone in charge - the rules were, see how far you can get in the contest or challenge - once you are hit with a certain amount of damage, the challenge is over. The Challenge could be tried again at different levels to acheive a higher score possibly.
Thanks again for the ideas.
I have a duo of NPCs that I'm planning to run around with in the next game I GM (we have a rotating GM system) where the NPCs are vastly more powerful than the players (2 10th level NPCs with extremely high wealth for the level vs a large party of level 6-7 PCs) that are going to be dangerous distractions in a rather large dungeon area. Both NPCs have 40 ft movement and the Run feat. One of them is an Illusionist. In all likelihood, if trapped in combat, they'd get chewed up. The issue, though, is that the other NPC could easily kill 1 player per round, and it will be made known that he can do this with NPC dialogue that the PCs overhear. The current plan is to have these guys as recurring enemies.
Set up the creep factor. Let the players know that the enemy is specifically holding pack. Playing with them. The players are mice and the cat wants to bat them around a bit before going for the kill...or maybe the cat will simply get bored. Maybe the goal shouldn't be direct confrontation. Just set it up in such a way as to not depend on your players making that assumption.
|
Another thing you can do is HURT the PCs without killing them outright. Use creatures that can slap on nasty conditions easily but don't do tons of damage. Nauseate them, sicken them, blind them, fatigue them, confuse them, bleed them, entangle them, etc etc etc.
Even at high levels, if you can start slapping multiple conditions on multiple PCs, then they start to get worried and fight more seriously - although getting them to run is still unlikely.
Also, pushing somebody down a well always helps. It makes an impression. S'all I'm saying. :)
Don't be afraid to single out one or two of them, either. I once ran an encounter that included a choker specifically to attack the party's bard. It got him around the throat so that the bard couldn't sing. I came within a couple hit points of strangling him. It was great!
I'd just kill them. BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
I wouldn't try to make the scenario unfair in my advantage or anything, but I wouldn't have any qualms about killing an unlucky player or two. I play with a bunch of gamers who take pride in completing games on higher difficulties. I wouldn't want them to think I was going easy on them. The risk involved and the drama of loss makes it more fun, I think.
Full Withdrawl doesnt provoke a AoO right?
It only avoids the AoO from the first square that you leave. If your enemy has reach, or if you run past other foes, you still provoke as usual.
I use a very simple luck point rule (hero points are too complicated I think) to ensure that players can (sometimes) avoid the first killing blow and realize they need to get the hell out of dodge. Check my profile lists if you want to see the rule, but my general advice is to only have a single, simple application of luck/hero points, because players will generally hoard them for the single best use.
Also, I am not afraid to simply announce to a player: "If you stay in this fight for another round, it's highly likely you will die." I pride myself on impartiality as a GM, so I don't mind sharing this estimate with them. The dice will land as they do, it isn't my decision to kill the PC.
I forgot to add there is good and bad tension in a game. I would get to know the group to try to find out what type of tension I was about to create.
My bad(bosses) guys normally have parties on the verge of defeat. Most people enjoy it, but I have had people not return to my table after such fights. I guess the thrill of looming death is not a positive for them.
|
Just an idea, but one way to create tension is to have your BBEG and his minion have it out infront of the PCs. They watch as the minion get the bejeezus beaten out of him and discard with a warning, then have the minion fight the party and come close to wiping the snot out of them. This gives them a strong reference of power. ie. BBEG just rolled the guy that spanked us like a 12 year old redheaded stepchild like he was a sack of unconcious infants and the only reason we survived was because the guy we beat was injured and still nearly killed us.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
If the players show up at his lair the BBEG only has a few options, kill them, get killed, or escape. I suppose you could capture them, but I've always thought that was pretty transparent myself.
Consider having the BBEG set the terms for their first confrontation rather than letting the PCs do it. Give him a goal other than fighting/ killing the PCs. For example the BBEG might be trying to steal some item or kidnap/ kill an NPC the PCs have an interest in. The BBEG could kill the party but instead accomplishes his primary goal then leaves.
You could conceivably do this a few times. So long as the BBG dictates the terms of the confrontation it is much easier to control how much or how little engagement with the PCs he has.
|
|
If the PCs have allies, let the PCs be TPK'ed...and then raised by an NPC friend, having given the BBEG a few hero-free days to do evil and they have racked up a massive GP debt as well as some extra time healing up, recovering gear, re-preparing spells. If they're high level, maybe the PCs even have a friend who has already made the arrangements with the PCs to scry/teleport in, grab bodies, and return to the home base for a round of Raise Dead for all if he/she ever finds out the party bought it.
Alternately, if the PCs are toasted in a way that prevents revival, maybe the next week's adventure is a sadistic series of grueling trials in the afterlife/underworld as the setting's death god gives the heroes one more chance to prove themselves, with each failure de-powering their living selves, robbing them of gear or stats, forcing them to swear favors to the death god, revealing dark secrets to others, etc. When they finally claw their way back to the world of the living, give them another few sessions of sorting out all of the confusion when they walk in to a room full of allies who thought they were dead, and start fearing undead, dopplegangers, illusionists, etc.
...or maybe one of the PCs patron gods has pulled some strings to get them back on their feet, and paid a high price that the PCs now owe to the god (or outsider, or some other being of vast otherworldly power). Or for a darker twist, the PCs are offered resurrection by a less benevolent god who wants them to pay a high (and maybe evil) price for another chance at life. Will the PCs promise to sacrifice 100 villagers to Bane each year for another shot at saving the world?
Maybe, in context, killing the PCs is impossible? Villains with good publicity can rarely afford to slaughter enemies wholesale, but are instead forced to pretend to be good guys and turn the "bad guys" in. The PCs will spend countless sessions trying to escape or bargain for their freedom and then repair their reputations, all the while the BBEG's world domination time table is advancing at breakneck pace.
If you really want death to be more inconvenience than final end, you could write it into the game's premise. Maybe the dark bargain exists from the get-go: PCs are chosen ones and an innocent dies in their place for each death they would have, or maybe, like liches, they will only lose time, reforming after a week in which the BBEG is unimpeded.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of the best techniques I've ever seen done was used by a friend of mine. He had us in a cursed town that, if the party died, you woke up back in the town the next morning, comfortably in the inn. The problem was that before we learned about this "time loop," we learned that the townsfolk turned into crazy primeval monsters at sundown, and anyone who was slain by them also got the curse. We couldn't leave the village, because as soon as the sun set we'd turn into monsters, back out, and wake up back at the village inn the next morning.
It's a powerful technique if don't correctly because even though you're giving the players unlimited lives, you're also helplessly trapping them in the time loop. It's a double-edged sword that most PCs aren't going to like; their freedom is heavily restricted, and most PCs are going to fight to try and get their freedoms back, even if they can die again (some might say that they're already dead).
One way I use to ramp up the tension is NPCs. If you put an NPC with the party of equal or greater level, let them get attached to him & used to his presence, then have said big bad one shot him or take him out without breaking a sweat, that drives home to the players how screwed they really are.
I've played with many groups & that one makes them pale face very quickly.
You should look up some of my past games that I've described on these forums. Here are a few that might prove to be inspirational:
My last ditch effort to save a small village from an encroaching army.
Our party attempts to survive a powerful dragon determined to hunt us down.
One of the best techniques I've ever seen done was used by a friend of mine. He had us in a cursed town that, if the party died, you woke up back in the town the next morning, comfortably in the inn. The problem was that before we learned about this "time loop," we learned that the townsfolk turned into crazy primeval monsters at sundown, and anyone who was slain by them also got the curse. We couldn't leave the village, because as soon as the sun set we'd turn into monsters, back out, and wake up back at the village inn the next morning.
Thats a good one taken directly from my favorite book series. Not gonna name it for potential spoilers, but is defiantely a cool setup.
|
I am starting a campaign for a new group. I have played in games but never run a game for them. The first few levels will have powerful enemies who are set up for later in the game. I am giving the players three characters each who will be created with different stat generation methods. The characters will be grouped and then I will try to murder them.
Basically, I am using the extra characters as a buffer to let me kill PCs and set up some villains (and the main villains). The players will know this in advance so they probably will run. The early levels will have all the characters in the same area so if one dies it will be easy to replace him after a combat. Once a player gets down to one character I will ease up and play at my normal lethality (rare).
So my suggestion is to have a secondary group who you use only for lethal lessons.
Run a prologue adventure where the players are all handed pre generated sheets, then have what ever your BBEG is going to be, hunt down these people and slaughter them. Then tell the players to grab their sheets and start the real adventure.Be very careful with this, one time I was convinced to run a one shot hunter game and I told everyone to make two characters and I was going to kill the first set in the first scene and have the second characters get a vision of that scene and the game would be search and destroy after that.
Everyone took it as a personal challenge and spent all their time making unkillable characters. Feelings were hurt when I killed them all anyways...
(My plan was that the villains of that game were the PCs (ratkin) from my ongoing game at the time and if the players succeeded in killing their own characters, next session THEY going to wake up with a vision of the one shot game and running a quick side session of taking out the PCs of the one shot)
Since it took them a long time to convince me to run this one shot, a decade later people still talk about how they won't play a game I run when I'm not in the mood to run a game. They thought I was "punishing" them when really I didn't have any good ideas till I thought of that and I was disappointed we didn't actually continue past the first scene...
(sorry for the white wolfy nature of the post, but that's a majority of the games I ran)
That's why you hand them pregenerated sheets, I did this once and the sheets I used were of the Iconics, when they go down the players know they are in for a s~#%storm