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Why is the Pathfinder Society Field Guide part of the core assumption for Pathfinder Society play?
Just looking at the reviews and product discussion here on the Paizo web site, I find comments like these (emphasis mine):
While it is correct that the book is part of the Core Assumption, I can find very nearly no use for it. I would say that 99.99% of all Society players would be fine never even browsing it. Honestly I feel that the only reason it is Core is that is the only way to get anyone to buy it.
Although some of the faction info was useful it does not justify the $20 price tag. Making it an assumption that every PFS player have one at the table just feels like a money grab. This is the first time I have felt this way about a Paizo product. Seeker of Secrets was a much better source. I'd would rather see something like an annual that broadly recaps the Society Year.
As far as I know, nobody in my local PFS group has this book, and we've never felt like we were missing out on some sort of crucial information. I'd feel more like I was missing crucial stuff if I didn't own the Advanced Player's Guide, which isn't part of the core assumption.
While I'm sure the book probably has some interesting fluff, and maybe someone would like to use some of the equipment, feats, traits, or archetypes, the same could be said for any number of other Paizo books. Is this one really a "must have" for any specific reason? Why is it part of the "core assumption"?
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Being a part of the Core Assumption means that you, as a player, are not required to have it on you. The three things in this assumption, the Core Rulebook, Bestiary I, and PFS Field Guide, are all things expected to be owned by the GM. This is two-fold: a GM needs these products to run games (especially when the scenarios refer to something in then and decides not to re-print the material to save space), but also the help introduce players to the basics of PFS play and point to items that can give a detailed explanation of what the different elements of PFS are about.
Of course you'll feel that way about APG, UM, UC, and the plethora of splatbooks released. But those are items not required to be on hand by your GM, so when your character uses something from the your GM can make a ruling by you showing them the actual text.
I think you just have a misconception on what it means to be part of the Core. Although as a GM and a player, having the Field Guide is a very useful tool in helping immerse your character experience into the organization our OP campaign deals with: the Pathfinder Society.
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You say that only GMs are required to have it, but that's not what it says on page 3 of the Guide to Organized Play:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every
player has the following.
• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
• Pathfinder Society Field Guide
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)
That says outright that every player is required to spend the $14 to get the Field Guide, or else pirate a copy, which I'm assuming is frowned upon.
I can certainly understand requiring the other two. And those two happen to both be available for free, between the prd and the Guide to Organized Play being a free download.
And I can understand encouraging players to immerse themselves more in the world of Golarian and the Society. I'd have no problems if certain books were listed as "highly recommended" for that purpose in the Guide to Organized Play. But there's a difference between highly recommended and required, especially when we're talking about books that aren't available for free.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Buy the hardcover and you can sell it to a buddy if you don't like PFS.
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Going to the movies:
$15/ 3 hours of entertainment = $5/ hour
Fieldguide hardcover:
$20/ 12 hours of gaming (3 sessions) = $1.70/ hour.
$20/ 24 hours of gaming (6 sessions) = $.85/ hour.
$20/ 48 hours of gaming (12 sessions) = $.42/ hour.
$20/ 96 hours of gaming (24 sessions) = $.21/ hour.
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That says outright that every player is required to spend the $14 to get the Field Guide, or else pirate a copy, which I'm assuming is frowned upon.
Pirating copies is more than just frowned upon. It's illegal, both in real-world, and society play rules.
a player must have a physical copy or a name-watermarked Paizo PDF (or printout of the relevant pages thereof )
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I've always figured that it is in the assumption because it tells about the in world Society. It gives information about each faction, about Absalom, and things you'll likely encounter during missions. Yeah, it is a lot of fluff, but its all fluff that your characters would/should know. Everything else about the society is/can be free. Like Dennis said, its a lot cheaper than a movie, unless you don't play more than once.
Also, I've seen the assumptions as you're assumed to have it, so you don't have to show it to prove it. If you want something from it, you can take it. Everything else in the additional resources you might have to show to prove you have it, but the assumptions you don't necessarily have to since its assumed you have it.
And those two that you quoted, are about the only ones I've seen that didn't like it. Everyone in my gaming group loves it, and after I showed them my copy, they all went out and got it themselves. Sure we just got pdfs, but we all just prefer them (and they are cheaper).
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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You say that only GMs are required to have it, but that's not what it says on page 3 of the Guide to Organized Play:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every
player has the following.
• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
• Pathfinder Society Field Guide
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)
That says outright that every player is required to spend the $14 to get the Field Guide, or else pirate a copy, which I'm assuming is frowned upon.
With respect, Fromper, that's not my understanding of the text at all.
The Organized Play environment proceeds under the expectation that the player has that information. It does not proceed under the assumption that the player has a copy of, say, Ultimate Magic.
So, if you bring a magus to the table, and that character knows a spell out of "Dwarves of Golarion" and has purchased a vanity with prestige points, you are expected to bring a copy of Ultimate Magic -- or the PDF pages that detail the magus and his spell lists -- and of "Dwarves of Golarion", but you are not required to bring a copy of the Field Guide, because the GM is assumed to own a copy of the Field Guide, and is not expected to own a copy of the other books.
The assumptions doesn't require you to buy the Field Guide, or the Core Rulebook. The assumptions indicate the books you don't have to bring to the gaming table.
Last year, before the Field Guide came out, the core assumptions included the "Seekers of Secrets" book. At that point, if you wanted to slot an ioun stone into a wayfinder, you didn't need to bring "Seekers of Secrets" along to prove to the GM what the resonant power of the item was; it was a core assumption, and the GM was supposed to have that information available. Nowadays, it's no longer part of the core assumptions, and you would indeed have to bring legitimate support for those resonant powers.
Peace be with you, in this merriest of seasons.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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And those two that you quoted, are about the only ones I've seen that didn't like it. Everyone in my gaming group loves it, and after I showed them my copy, they all went out and got it themselves. Sure we just got pdfs, but we all just prefer them (and they are cheaper).I am unclear if you are speaking about me, but just to clarify, I absolutely loved the book - I have the hardcopy. I just thought Fromper had a point, that it was part of the Core Assumption, yet the APG is probably the more useful of the books.
Nope, I was responding to Fromper's OP. He quoted two negative responses to the FG. (Had I been responding to you I'd probably have quoted you such as I just did... ;})
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As far as I know, nobody in my local PFS group has this book, and we've never felt like we were missing out on some sort of crucial information.
Well, I *do* own the Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets supplement, which I think has a lot of information cross-over. I picked this up mainly to give depth to the elements of our games where players are talking to a Venture Captain or other significant persona. I know I have shown portraits from it for some of those NPCs as well as used the Heidmarch Manor map and descriptions during one of our sessions. Also, I think I added some flavor to descriptions of your indoctrination process at some point by use of the supplement.
(Plus it has a really awesome section on ioun stones!)
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What is a pathfinder? What is the Pathfinder Society? You will not find these answers in the CRB, you will find a brief introduction in the guide to organized play.
Recently this week I was starting a session and a customer at the store asked what PFS was about, about 5 minutes into my spill a player handed his Field Guide to the customer so we could start a session. I think the book serves as a great introduction to what the society is.
I also have a character that uses an archetype from the field guide, and another that uses a prestige class and a feat from SoS.
Sure there is allot of fluff in these books. I feel that it helps the level of immersion for players in this roleplaying game. My characters are Pathfinder's that have been trained, they know about the organization and know what a Venture Captain is. They are not, for example a barbarian from the core rule book or a magus from ultimate magic.
Spending money is part of any hobby, in truth the cost of PFS is extremely low compared to other games and other hobbies, even cost of some online games.
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To the OP.
You are missing out, it is a very good book, and a great introduction to the Pathfinder Society.
It goes into the PFS itself, The City of Absalom, It goes into further details of the Factions, Adds some Archetypes, and some great Equipment, Spells and the only place you can find the Vanities which to me makes the book useful there.
Ch 4 though IMO has very little use.
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And those two that you quoted, are about the only ones I've seen that didn't like it. Everyone in my gaming group loves it, and after I showed them my copy, they all went out and got it themselves. Sure we just got pdfs, but we all just prefer them (and they are cheaper).
The tables on the first page being easy to find is worth the price of the book in my opinion. If it saves 3-5 minutes per scenario finding what my day job or my players day job earned, it saved me 30 to 45 minutes in the past 3 months... That's two hours a year at minimum, and an entire PFS scenario worth of time every two years. and that's when playing 1-2 scenarios a month and one con a year..
The last chapter of the book is also very good, mechanically. The fluff and vanities are profit for the player.
The equipment packages are great and save you quite a bit of money, as well.
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You say that only GMs are required to have it, but that's not what it says on page 3 of the Guide to Organized Play:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every
player has the following.
• Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook
• Pathfinder Society Field Guide
• Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play (this document)
If you add the words: "... every player has access to the following ..." you get the spirit of the text. As part of the Core Assumption these books are the responsibility of the GM to have on hand. But it is the responsibility of each player to learn this content as part of the game rules.
Personally, I've found the Field Guide to be very useful and more as a player than a GM for all the cool things you can spend your Prestige Points on.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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If you add the words: "... every player has access to the following ..." you get the spirit of the text. As part of the Core Assumption these books are the responsibility of the GM to have on hand. But it is the responsibility of each player to learn this content as part of the game rules.
Personally, I've found the Field Guide to be very useful and more as a player than a GM for all the cool things you can spend your Prestige Points on.
With that being said, would you allow players to purchase things with Prestige even if they do not own the book (or a water-marked pdf), since it is a Core Assumption? A curious question a recent new player asked me.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Arnim, I do not in any way represent an official stance.
I guess I don't see that as any sort of abuse. If a player decided to play a half-orc Sorcerer with one of the bloodlines from the core rulebook, using only information from the core book, the traits document, and the guide to organized play, would you consider it an abuse if that player got all of her information from the official on-line prd, never buying the core rulebook?
If you're concerned about Pathfinder Society being a marketing arm of the company's product line, I wouldn't be too worried that this hypothetical free-player is going to break the system. Maybe she'll buy some auxiliary products for her second or third character. Or maybe she'll be enthusiastic about PFS, and recruit two other people, and they'll spend buckets of money on rulebooks and accessories.
Merry Christmas, Michael.
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With that being said, would you allow players to purchase things with Prestige even if they do not own the book
I would. No reason to be the PFS police. The primary reason why they need the book (outside of Paizo making money on the purchase) is so the GM can read the description of their character's abilities. If the GM has those books, then I'm okay with it. I've seen a lot of players that use the PRD or HeroLab as a source of material.
However, if as the GM, I fail to bring my books (there are a number of reasons how/why that would happen) then it must fall back on the player to provide the published material. As a player, I would always ensure that I have the material to support my character, even if I suspect the GM will also have it. To do otherwise, puts the character's playability at risk. This is a matter of personal responsibility, IMO.
Vinyc,
While what you are saying is good for the Additional Resources, this was more about the Field Guide, which is part of the Core Assumption, not Additional Resources. The Core Assumption says that a player should own the Core Book and the Field Guide, but is not required to in order to play. The GM, however, is required to own these two books, plus the first Bestiary. This is why it is called Assumption, because it is assumed that the GM will have these books and know what is in them in case a player does bring a copy.
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A GM would have a problem running a scenario if they didn’t have their CRB or Bestiary.
Actually, it depends on the circumstance. I recently ran a scenario that I was very familiar with without bringing any books. In addition to the printed scenario, I print the Bestiary pages, and the relevant spell pages from the CRB. With all the added materials a GM may bring (maps, miniatures & other visual aids, extra dice, etc.) if you don't absolutely need the books, it can be a nice change to leave them at home. This could be even more-so the case at conventions where the amount of "stuff" to lug around can increase exponentially.
The core assumption applies to everyone equally. It is no more fair to expect the GM to have the books than it is another player. All society members, regardless of player/GM status, are expected to have a CRB and a copy of the Field Guide. Not having that as well as any support material for your character, puts the PC at risk. Have some compassion for your hard working GM's and just bring all the relevant books for your character. If the GM does not specifically need the entire book for the session, its possible they will leave it at home.
I second this. I prep the heck out of my scenarios making encounter cards and combat cards that hold all the pertinent information. I could literally GM a scenario without touching the print out or any books. Besides, looking things up mid-game is bad form if you're trying to keep things flowing (such as during a 4-hour slot at a store or convention).
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For the record, two great items spring to mind from the Field Guide: air crystals and ghost salt. Every adventurer should carry a handful of air crystals, and every weapon-based character should have a spare weapon or two with ghost salt on it/them.
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For the record, two great items spring to mind from the Field Guide: air crystals and ghost salt. Every adventurer should carry a handful of air crystals, and every weapon-based character should have a spare weapon or two with ghost salt on it/them.
I prefer the elixir of spirit sight to the ghost salt weapon blanche, but YMMV, and I can certainly see the appeal of the latter.
I'd missed the air crystals, though -- thanks for that. :-)
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I have no problem with the players purchasing the Vanities out of the Field Guide regardless of whether they own one, personally. I just would hate for one of my players to face that issue at a bigger convention, such as GenCon. I have always assumed that Core Assumption meant "open game" for the players, but good to know other GMs and VOs feel the same.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As someone pointed out GMs are not the PFS police.
I do expect players to own the source books for any items/ vanities/ feats they are using though. If you use it, buy it.
I respect that some folks are on a tight budget but compared to all the other expenses people lay out to game (fuel, food, minis dice, shop fees, etc), dropping $10-20 on a book for material they use week after week is trivial.
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For the record, two great items spring to mind from the Field Guide: air crystals and ghost salt. Every adventurer should carry a handful of air crystals, and every weapon-based character should have a spare weapon or two with ghost salt on it/them.I prefer the elixir of spirit sight to the ghost salt weapon blanche, but YMMV, and I can certainly see the appeal of the latter.
I'd missed the air crystals, though -- thanks for that. :-)
Where is the elixir of spirit sight from?
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Where is the elixir of spirit sight from?For the record, two great items spring to mind from the Field Guide: air crystals and ghost salt. Every adventurer should carry a handful of air crystals, and every weapon-based character should have a spare weapon or two with ghost salt on it/them.I prefer the elixir of spirit sight to the ghost salt weapon blanche, but YMMV, and I can certainly see the appeal of the latter.
I'd missed the air crystals, though -- thanks for that. :-)
Serpent's Skull #3 (AP #39).
As someone pointed out GMs are not the PFS police.
I do expect players to own the source books for any items/ vanities/ feats they are using though. If you use it, buy it.
I respect that some folks are on a tight budget but compared to all the other expenses people lay out to game (fuel, food, minis dice, shop fees, etc), dropping $10-20 on a book for material they use week after week is trivial.
What books I do have, I have as pdfs, but I do not own a reader for them at this time. So, of course, any material from the Additional Resources I would use, I would print out the relevant pages to keep the character legal.
But if you are saying you would require someone to have their copy of a Core Assumption book with them or they cannot play when it is expected for the GM to own these books and have them at the table for use when needed.....
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I think Enevhar Aldarion is referring to the fact that you don't need the physical book. Alternately, you can bring a digital copy, or you can just print the watermarked pages that contain the information.
To deny someone play because they don't have the actual, physical book would be wrong. However, I do not think that is what Dennis meant either.
That being said, I feel it is pretty inconsiderate to either not buy the book or not to bring it, just because, by core assumption, the GM should have it anyway. Take responsibility for yourself. If you want to use material from a book, own the book. Simple.
This doesn't need to turn into a technicality pi$$ing contest. As long as everyone brings what they need to either run their game or play their character, we'll have no problems.
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For the record, two great items spring to mind from the Field Guide: air crystals and ghost salt. Every adventurer should carry a handful of air crystals, and every weapon-based character should have a spare weapon or two with ghost salt on it/them.I prefer the elixir of spirit sight to the ghost salt weapon blanche, but YMMV, and I can certainly see the appeal of the latter.
I'd missed the air crystals, though -- thanks for that. :-)
Hmmm. After looking at the Elixir, I can see the appeal, but it palls a bit for missile weapon users, since, for the same price, you cen get either 1 minute from the Elixir, usable only in a block, or 50 pieces of ammunition, which can probably span 10 combat rounds, not needed to be consecutive....
Then again, my archer who could afford the elixir already has a Hand of Glory and a batch of arrows prepared with Ghost Salt. And two castings of Abundant Ammunition per day...
On the other hand, I can see where a meleeist would prefer the elixir, by a long shot.