Which Demon Lords Deserve to Be Upgraded to Gods?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Dark Archive

I am rebuilding my homebrew campaign setting to v2.0 and I've decided to make demon cults an important element of the setting. But, I want to simplify them a bit - that is, I want to limit their number, so that I can present them to the players in more concise way. Also, I like the Chaos Gods from the Warhammer, so I'd like to move Chaos Cults a little closer to the Moorcock's Chaos, but also to Zelazny's Amber series.

The eight-pointed star was a sign of Chaos from the days of Elric, so I decided to have eight Chaos Gods (and Empress of Chaos, that is above them). My (obvious) choices are:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus

I need five more Demon Lords/Gods and I'd also like to have replacements for Warhammer Chaos Gods. Just as reminder, they are:

Khorne: bloodlust, war, death
Tzeentch: change, fate, mutation
Nurgle: plague, despair, disease
Slaanesh: lust, pleasure, excess

Grazz't can serve as a replacement for Slaanesh, and I was thinking Abraxas as a replacement for Tzeentch.


Deskari- of Locust, Chasms, and Infestations, would sub well for Nurgle

Other favorites are Jubilex, Dagon, Kabriri, and Jezelda.

You know what: Browse here


Orcus god of the undead, spirit and spanner in the works


Come on man you need malice in there for wh40k. :P

Dark Archive

Yeah, I forgot Dagon. Also, I have first two Book of the Damned, but I would like to choose Demon Lords that are more entrenched in the D&D tradition than those created for Pathfinder.

I think that Jubilex was always lesser Demon Lord, with not enough mojo to be upgraded to god, but Zuggtmoy would perhaps be good choice.

So,

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus
Dagon

Baphomet has a huge role in RL occult traditions, but his D&D representation is not in accordance to that tradition, since he is more of a brute in D&D.


You might rescue Baphomet by applying the traditional aspect, no need to stand on the brute interpretation.

Dark Archive

That's one of the ideas I have right now, since minotaurs and gnols are perhaps more easily identified with "Mother of Monsters", whoever she might be. I may keep Lamashtu, or I might reskin her as Lilith. I think that I'll use Abraxas as replacement for Tzeentch, and perhaps give to Baphomet the domain over secrets.

Shadow Lodge

Since it's your own homebrew campaign, why bother having replacements for the WH Chaos gods?

Dark Archive

I want to keep the continuity with previous campaign. At least in part. The previous campaign started in 1999 and it lasted till 2007 and I have some dedicated players. We made a pause to play in FFG's Midnight Campaign Setting for two or three years, but now it's time to return to my own world.

The basic premise is that 10.000+ years have passed and during that time the Long War was waged against the Mad God, trapped in the center of the planet. (This has nothing to do with Rovagug. My evil god is in fact sentient black hole and brother to the sentient sun of the local solar system, which is the main god of the human pantheon.) The Long War was ended about a year before the next campaign starts. Because of the specific nature of the setting, I want to have a limited number of gods. I want a human pantheon, consisting of five gods, and Chaos Cults, consisting of eight gods (because of the eight-pointed Chaos Star) and the Empress of Chaos above them. Asmodeus will have a roll in the setting, and some non-human gods, such as the goddess of the elves and Allfather of the dwarves.


"Me! Pick me!"

Silver Crusade

Have Lolth be the Replacement for Tzeentch

She was orriganally a demon who became a god, plus she encourages her followers to constantly plat and plan against eachother.

Dark Archive

nightflier wrote:

My (obvious) choices are:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus

Nice choices! Along with Yeenoghu, those were my favorites!

Haagenti (from the Book of Fiends and / or Pathfinder), The Whispers Within, patron of alchemy and transmutation, seems like a good choice for Tzeentch (change, fate, mutation).

For Khorne (bloodlust, war, death), Anghazhan (apes and jungles), Kostchtchie (giants and cold) or Urxehl (trolls and storms) could work, depending on which direction you want to go, but, really, none of them are perfect fits. A custom version that is more of a CE version of Gorum (more like Erythnul the Slaughterer, from Greyhawk, or Vangal, from the Scarred Lands setting, or an evil combination of Bhaal, Bane, Malar and Garagos, from the Realms).

Other intriguing Pathfinder demon lords could include;
Abraxas (magic and forbidden lore),
Jezelda (moon and werewolves),
Kabriri (graves and ghouls),
Mestama (hags and deception).

But, really, lesser discussed demon lords like Areshkegal and Xoveron are also intriguing.

I'm not terribly impressed by some of the really popular ones like Pazuzu or Nocticula, myself.

Dark Archive

nightflier wrote:

My (obvious) choices are:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus

Those three have always been fighting for top demon position since 1st Ed, you have to have those three in the mix. I would also add Pazuzu because, at least in earlier editions, held sway the first layer of the Abyss (which is not really applicable on Golarion) as well as the skies above other layers (as long as he was not caught in them), and I always considered him literally 'above' all the infighting; he was powerful but he seemed the most aloof of the Demon Princes, at least as the power struggle for the Abyss was concerned.

I would add Fraz-Urb'luu, but as a Prince who has fallen out of favor, one who was a contender for debase greatness but has fallen and is in the process of rebuilding his power base.

Of Golarion's Demon Lords, Abraxas seems the one who could easily join the top tier Demons.


I'd go for :

Graz'zt or Malcanthet (Slaanesh)
Dagon (Creatures of the Deep, horror, despair)
Astaroth or Abraxas (Tzeentch)
Rhyxali or Nocticula (shadow demons and secrets, night)
Lamashtu (deformity, monstrous birth, plague, disease)
Orcus (Undeath)
Yheenoghu (bestial savagery)
Eltab or Miska (Khorne)

Miska is the original consort of the Queen of Chaos and her general, making him suitable as representative of war, the Queen of Chaos might be the Empress of Chaos in this case.

Eltab is from FR and represents hatred and retribution, personally seems more in the spirit of Khorne and I like the name better, though Yheenoghu might be ok for Khorne.

Most of Nurgle would go to Lamashtu but despair and horror seem particulary suited to Dagon

Graz'zt and Malcanthet I both find very interesting though you can give Graz'zt the position and make Malcanthet his concsort and rival, there is something to be said for allowing a few 'female' demons in the ranks.

Rhyxali and Nocticula are likewise very similar, either works, I have a slight preference for Nocticula because of the name, Rhyxali might be her consort or sibling.

If you want to keep Nurgle intact jubilex is the best bet, even though he might be one of the weaker among the eight.

Grand Lodge

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Seems like you have to find spots for Pazuzu and Lamashtu.

And why did you leave off Zuggtmoy?

That's a heckuva top Seven:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus
Dagon
Pazuzu
Lamashtu
Zuggtmoy

And for the final spot I argue that the best possibilities are
Fraz Urb'Lu
Yeenoghu
Abraxus


Set wrote:
nightflier wrote:

My (obvious) choices are:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus

Nice choices! Along with Yeenoghu, those were my favorites!

Haagenti (from the Book of Fiends and / or Pathfinder), The Whispers Within, patron of alchemy and transmutation, seems like a good choice for Tzeentch (change, fate, mutation).

For Khorne (bloodlust, war, death), Anghazhan (apes and jungles), Kostchtchie (giants and cold) or Urxehl (trolls and storms) could work, depending on which direction you want to go, but, really, none of them are perfect fits. A custom version that is more of a CE version of Gorum (more like Erythnul the Slaughterer, from Greyhawk, or Vangal, from the Scarred Lands setting, or an evil combination of Bhaal, Bane, Malar and Garagos, from the Realms).

Other intriguing Pathfinder demon lords could include;
Abraxas (magic and forbidden lore),
Jezelda (moon and werewolves),
Kabriri (graves and ghouls),
Mestama (hags and deception).

But, really, lesser discussed demon lords like Areshkegal and Xoveron are also intriguing.

I'm not terribly impressed by some of the really popular ones like Pazuzu or Nocticula, myself.

I agree with Set's suggestions, with one exception. While I myself don't like Nocticula, I say Pazuzu is awesome. He was awesome in 3.5e and I think he is awesome in Pathfinder as well.


Baphomet, Kostchtchie and Yeenoghu; thanks to their Minotaur, Giantish and Gnoll followers respectively.

The others (however awesome they are) are to far involve in each others' affairs and would likely interfere, perhaps with the exception of Dagon. If one did ascend, I doubt that status-quot would prevail. Something would happen, and some would be cleaned off the map (unless they all ascended simultaneously, I guess). If I had to pick one other than Dagon, I'd pick Orcus according to the late 3.5 mythos. Personally, I cheer for Graz'zt, but he's bit of an underdog...

[edit] re-red the OP. Alright, here goes my top 8...

bloodlust, war, death (Khorne): Baphomet & Demogorgon
change, fate, mutation (Tzeentch): Dagon & Pazuzu (more as keepers of secrets and corruption than mutation per se)
plague, despair, disease (Nurgle): Orcus & Zuggtmoy
lust, pleasure, excess (Slaanesh): Graz'zt & Malcanthet

Shadow Lodge

I'd go the opposite route, myself. Introduce the Chaos gods as Demon Lords. After all, in the infinite layers of the Abyss, there are probably infinite Demon Lords. Finding out about four more isn't exactly a staggering change to most campaigns.

Grand Lodge

Obox Ob

(the shout-out to Jacobs)

I could see ole Obox Ob making a list of top 10 (or maybe 8).

And it'd be cool to see what Jacobs' favorite Demon Lords, past (and present) are.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Other than me? None.


If you're gonna have 8 demon lords representing the 8 points on the star of chaos (and evil), why not just take 8 of the 12 iconic demons, give them 20 levels in divine spellcasting classes, a truckload of modifications via wishes (+5 all stats), to start.

Each of them can represent 8 arbitrary facets of chaos, like...

Murder (Babau Cleric[Murder,Darkness])
Wretchedness (Dretch Oracle[wasting curse, mystery of bones])
Greed (Glabrezu Cleric[Nobility,Trickery])
Filth (Hezrou Oracle[wasting curse, mystery of nature])
Malice (Marilith Cleric[Nightmare,Blood])
Vanity (Nalfeshnee Cleric[Madness,Charm])
Lust (Succubus Cleric[Lust,Trickery])
Ruin (Vrock Cleric[Destruction,Ferocity])

Dark Archive

First of all, guys, I'd like to thank you all for taking an interest in this little project of mine. I plan to publish my homebrew on the internet in time, as a sort of homage to a player of mine who died in a car accident, so I am approaching this project with a great deal of attention. Of course, I am only one man and it is very hard to find the time to write and edit 15 years worth of info, but I hope that I'll finish everything in two years time. My goal is to have 128-pages pdf, fully illustrated in black-and-white drawings. Paradoxically, the art is not a problem for me, since one of my future players is world-class prestige awards winning artist. :)

So, to start from the beginning, as they say.

Cosmogonia of the Planescape part of my CS was taken in part from 2nd Ed. Guide to Hell, written by Chris Pramas.

In short, the multiverse was a mass of swirling Chaos in the beginning. In time, some beings coalesced from that Chaos. Some of those beings reveled in Chaos and others abhorred it. The conflict between those two groups of primordials defined the planes and the laws of the multiverse.

The mightiest of the champions of law were the Twin Serpents: Jazirian, winged and feathered, who dedicated herself to the cause of Good; and Asmodeus, scaled and forked of tongue, who became the embodiment of evil. When Asmodeus took Jazirian's tail in his mouth and she did the same with his, they formed a circle and demarcated the planes from the original Chaos, that will eventually become known as the Far Realm.

After uncounted aeons, the Twin Serpens started to struggle for the supremacy of the Good or Evil. Eventually, they tore themselves apart.

Jazirian flew to the heavens and Asmodeus fell to hell. That fall was so deep that he fractured the plane of hell into nine parts.

Now goes my part:

But the multiverse functions by the Law of Three. It is not known why. At the time that Jazirian and Asmodeus formed ouroboros there were other entities who watched from the swirling mas of Chaos. One of those was their unnamed sister, who took the shape of serpent with what would later be known as humanoid upper body. She was filled with envy and hatred because Asmodeus rejected her, favoring their winged sister. That entity remained in the Chaos, birthing other beings and positioning herself as the ultimate enemy of Asmodeus and his offspring, born from his blood as he fell to the depths of hell. She became known as the Empress of Chaos and that was the real cause of the Blood War...

Grand Lodge

So,.... is she Pale Night? Or, I guess since she's Law she could be The Lady of Pain. I dunno. She's not Miska, I assume.

Dark Archive

So, to continue...

I plan to add other aspects of D&D history to the text above. I think I'm gonna make Graz'zt the son of Asmodeus, and change his image so that he has six large antelope-like horns that form a kind of a crown above his head. Of course, I plan to expand that beyond the physical changes.

So, to return to the original topic:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus

Khorne: bloodlust, war, death

Graz'zt replaces Slaanesh as the Chaos God of lust, pleasure, excess - and I will add intrigue to that.
Dagon replaces Tzeentch as the Chaos God of change, fate and mutation.
Zuggtmoy replaces Nurgle as the Chaos Goddess of plague, despair and disease.
Baphomet (combined with Haagenti and Abraxas) replaces Tzeentch as the Chaos God of magic, secrets, secret societies and similar. (I realize that this is completely against the established image of Baphomet, but I am intrigued by his RL image and alleged connection to Templars and other societies, secret or public. Also, I plan to "give" minotaurs to Lamashtu, in her role as "Mother of Monsters".)
Lamashtu - Chaos Goddess of monsters
Orcus - Chaos God of undeath
Demogorgon - Chaos God of beasts (?)

and

Kharnag - Chaos God of bloodlust, war, death (obviously, this is just a renaming of Khorne, and pun with the English word "carnage".)

So, what do you think?

Dark Archive

W E Ray wrote:
So,.... is she Pale Night? Or, I guess since she's Law she could be The Lady of Pain. I dunno. She's not Miska, I assume.

No, no... Jazirian is the LG goddess of quatl race.

The third snake-like sibling, that I made up, was inspired by 1) Queen of Chaos; 2) original myth of Tiamat. Since I will not have a dragon deity, perhaps I will make Tiamat the Empress of Chaos. What do you think?

Grand Lodge

Yeah, I was talking about the third snake sibling, not Jazirian.

And while reading your post I was thinking of Pale Night, The Lady of Pain, or Tiamat, believe it or not -- and when I finally got to the post forgot to include Tiamat (real world myth).

BTW, The Queen of Chaos is Miska the Wolf Spider.
.
.
.
I like your list of 8; more importantly, it's a reasonably well put together list that any gamer should accept as legitimate.

While I don't know Khorne and the others -- I never read Moorcock's Elric books, just remember the chapter from the original Deities and Demigods -- I accept a Moorcock Demon Lord as legitimate enough to be on a List of Eight (though I'd stick to "Khorne" and not a Homebrew "Kharnag."

And as far as Baphomet -- several gamers despise D&D's image of him as a Minotaur. Personally, I have Never accepted it. Baphomet was named by christians to attack Mohammed -- Baphomet = Mohammed. How the designers in D&D got Minotaur from that, well , I dunno -- probably a blunder from either Tweet, Dale Henson or Andy Collins -- the three biggest no-talent hacks to ever con D&D into thinking they had talent.

Dark Archive

Glad you like it.

To be honest, I am doing this because I feel that the "evil gods" concept present in D&D is not realistic. Humanity does not tell itself that it worships evil. Humans find excuses for themselves and the evil things done in their name. So, I plan to have only five major gods (a lot of "small gods" or "saints", though) that will cover various aspects of human life. For instance, goddess of fertility and agriculture will also be a goddess of mothers and women in general. Therefore, I need to have "evil" concentrated in a form that is easy to define, hate and fight against.


As an aside, why do so many demon lords NOT have a distinct sin (or sins) they represent?

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Graz'zt, Malcanthet and Socobenthoth.
All lust based.

Edit: Bah! I shouldn't be sop quick with the send button.
I meant, why do demon lords in official stats not have sin/evil portfolios.

Also, I really like your idea nighflier. I may yoink it for one of my games.


W E Ray wrote:

Yeah, I was talking about the third snake sibling, not Jazirian.

And while reading your post I was thinking of Pale Night, The Lady of Pain, or Tiamat, believe it or not -- and when I finally got to the post forgot to include Tiamat (real world myth).

BTW, The Queen of Chaos is Miska the Wolf Spider.

Just to be a pain, Miska the Wolf Spider is not the Queen of Chaos. Miska was the Queen's consort and the first Prince of Demons, The Queen was originally a native of limbo and later an obyrith (primal demon).

Grand Lodge

Huh.

I didn't know that. My bad.


nightflier wrote:

Glad you like it.

To be honest, I am doing this because I feel that the "evil gods" concept present in D&D is not realistic. Humanity does not tell itself that it worships evil. Humans find excuses for themselves and the evil things done in their name. So, I plan to have only five major gods (a lot of "small gods" or "saints", though) that will cover various aspects of human life. For instance, goddess of fertility and agriculture will also be a goddess of mothers and women in general. Therefore, I need to have "evil" concentrated in a form that is easy to define, hate and fight against.

I do agree though in myhtology many heathen gods are called demons, I do think it works better if true gods are either good or neutral, the neutral gods typically being respected and worshipped but also feared for the aspects they represent, a god turning evil might be cast out and branded as a demon.

The gods might gain considerable power from mortal worship that allows them to protect their worshippers in return, thus causing the demons to envy the gods and seek to simultaneously bring ruin to mortals and welcome their worship.


Natan Linggod 972 wrote:

As an aside, why do so many demon lords NOT have a distinct sin (or sins) they represent?

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Graz'zt, Malcanthet and Socobenthoth.
All lust based.

Edit: Bah! I shouldn't be sop quick with the send button.
I meant, why do demon lords in official stats not have sin/evil portfolios.

Also, I really like your idea nighflier. I may yoink it for one of my games.

It is probably because sin is the territory of Asmodeus and hell in general, the concept becomes muddled in D&D since the term in older writings demon was more commonly applied to mean any 'false' gods, a highly subjective term. The devil was at least recognized, though not trully a god he had his function within the religion to ward people away from sin.


nightflier wrote:

So, to continue...

I plan to add other aspects of D&D history to the text above. I think I'm gonna make Graz'zt the son of Asmodeus, and change his image so that he has six large antelope-like horns that form a kind of a crown above his head. Of course, I plan to expand that beyond the physical changes.

So, to return to the original topic:

Demogorgon
Graz'zt
Orcus

Khorne: bloodlust, war, death

Graz'zt replaces Slaanesh as the Chaos God of lust, pleasure, excess - and I will add intrigue to that.
Dagon replaces Tzeentch as the Chaos God of change, fate and mutation.
Zuggtmoy replaces Nurgle as the Chaos Goddess of plague, despair and disease.
Baphomet (combined with Haagenti and Abraxas) replaces Tzeentch as the Chaos God of magic, secrets, secret societies and similar. (I realize that this is completely against the established image of Baphomet, but I am intrigued by his RL image and alleged connection to Templars and other societies, secret or public. Also, I plan to "give" minotaurs to Lamashtu, in her role as "Mother of Monsters".)
Lamashtu - Chaos Goddess of monsters
Orcus - Chaos God of undeath
Demogorgon - Chaos God of beasts (?)

and

Kharnag - Chaos God of bloodlust, war, death (obviously, this is just a renaming of Khorne, and pun with the English word "carnage".)

So, what do you think ?

Kharnag works for me, I'd suggest to google images of Eltab on deviant art and forgottenrealms.wikia t get images for a pretty good Kharnag demon lord.

Googling images for Baphomet it seems Baphomet is more associated with something more resembling a cross between a goat and a man/woman appearing much less brutal but much more suited to the role you ascribed to him/her.

I find having a mental image and common depictions of said demon to be much help to bring it alive for players and myself.

Demogorgon never worked for me, I just didnt find the baboon headed demon 'cool' enough to be taken seriously, if I put it infromt of my players they would no doubt at some point mock him...


Remco Sommeling wrote:


It is probably because sin is the territory of Asmodeus and hell in general, the concept becomes muddled in D&D since the term in older writings demon was more commonly applied to mean any 'false' gods, a highly subjective term. The devil was at least recognized, though not trully a god he had his function within the religion to ward people away from sin.

I suppose, although it begs the question why are so many lesser demons sin based if that's hells purview?

Re: Demogorgon.

I always like the idea of him, that is the first tanari to rip himself from the Abyss. And too primal and destructive for even the Queen of Chaos to want hanging around. The whole "at war with himself" was pretty cool too.

I would make him Chaos god of conflict and strife. Whether physical, political or spiritual.

Dark Archive

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nightflier wrote:
Baphomet (combined with Haagenti and Abraxas) replaces Tzeentch as the Chaos God of magic, secrets, secret societies and similar. (I realize that this is completely against the established image of Baphomet, but I am intrigued by his RL image and alleged connection to Templars and other societies, secret or public. Also, I plan to "give" minotaurs to Lamashtu, in her role as "Mother of Monsters".)

Baphomet as a god not of a physical labyrinth, but a more metaphysical labyrinth, is a neat concept. His followers peel the layers of the onion, exploring and discovering deeper secret lore and rites to their master, taking a journey of a thousand steps before some even realize the true name and nature of whom they serve, and, there's no guarantee that even those who think they follow Baphomet with eyes wide open aren't just as in the dark as the rabble...

I like the idea of the labyrinth as a metaphor (losing yourself to find the truth, or to find your true self, abandoning the illusion of knowing where you are, of *what* you are, of what you are capable of...), sort of like how 'turning lead to gold' was an alchemical metaphor for purifying and rarifying onself and becoming incorruptible and immortal.

nightflier wrote:
To be honest, I am doing this because I feel that the "evil gods" concept present in D&D is not realistic. Humanity does not tell itself that it worships evil.

Many D&D/PF evil gods are at least somewhat reasonable, and, like Urgathoa or Shar, offer candy and perks to get people on the wagon (why anyone would ever worship Nerull or Zon-Kuthon, on the other hand, I do not get...). People propitiate malicious and / or unpredictable gods of death, for instance.

EverQuest, OTOH, just bugged me, with entire races worshipping gods with purviews like 'Hate' and 'Fear.' Sure, there were gods associated with fear (such as Ares' sons, Phobos and Deimos), for instance, but they weren't exactly major players...


Natan Linggod 972 wrote:
Remco Sommeling wrote:


It is probably because sin is the territory of Asmodeus and hell in general, the concept becomes muddled in D&D since the term in older writings demon was more commonly applied to mean any 'false' gods, a highly subjective term. The devil was at least recognized, though not trully a god he had his function within the religion to ward people away from sin.

I suppose, although it begs the question why are so many lesser demons sin based if that's hells purview?

Re: Demogorgon.

I always like the idea of him, that is the first tanari to rip himself from the Abyss. And too primal and destructive for even the Queen of Chaos to want hanging around. The whole "at war with himself" was pretty cool too.

I would make him Chaos god of conflict and strife. Whether physical, political or spiritual.

I am not so sure it is now, but it used to be hell's dominion, souls werent necesary for the abyss to thrive but the hells did need them to keep te infernal warmachine going. PF seems to have changed direction on that, demons and devils and the like were often confused ending up with many similar names on either side of the fence demons and devils derived from the same mythological source following a slightly different interpretation.

I recall that demogorgon eventually lost his baboon heads in exchange for jackals or hyena's heads making him a bit less silly in my mind, still not fond of using him, the twin personality has merrit but I liked many other demons better.

Dark Archive

Thanks for all your input, guys. It means a lot to me.

Now, regarding sins of all kind - perhaps some sins can be a domain of Graz'zt, since I'm planing to make him a son of Pale Night and Asmodeus, but for the most part, I want to keep sins tied to Hell. So, sins like unbridled lust or uncontrolled anger can be tied to Chaos, but sins like ambition or greed should be tied to Hell, in my opinion.

@Set

You know, that was exactly what I was thinking regarding Baphomet, including the labyrinth analogy.

Also, I'm thinking of "merging" a great number of deities. For instance, if Orcus is Chaos God of Undeath, he can subsume Urgothoa's portfolio. In this particular example, I may even keep her as his saint or herald or whatever.

Dark Archive

OK, I am working on gods.

I plan to have five major deities, primarily worshiped by humans:

Sol - LN God of Sun, Law, Justice, Wealth, State etc.
Luna - NG Goddess of Moon, Dreams, Sailors, Magic, Merchants, Thieves etc.
Gaia - N Goddess of Earth, Fertility, Women, Motherhood etc.
Aron - N God of Wilderness, Storms, Rain, Thunder, Winds etc.
Mitra - LG God of Humanity, Justified War, Noble Deeds etc.

This is Pentheon of Humanity.

Other gods:

The Light of Divine Mind - LN God of Iluminati (homebrew psionic race)
DEM (Deus Ex Machina) - LN God of Servitors (homebrew replacement for warforged)
Allfather - The Patriarch of the Dwarven Pantheon of Gods
Triune Goddess of the Elves

Ultimate Bad Guy:

Chton - The Shadow, Evil Twin, Black Sun (intelligent black hole trapped in the center of the planet) - NE God of nothing in particular, perhaps Elemental Evil.

So, these are all the gods I plan to have in the campaign. But, I plan to have certain number of "saints". I've imagined them as demigods or lesser gods, perhaps, who don't have organized churches or cults. They could have a small number of individual followers, but they don't have the oomph for anything larger than that.

Saints:

Caine, the patron saint of assassins and killers
Vecna, the patron saint of Secrets and Intrigue
Lilith, the patron saint of Bad Luck and Evil Magic

and perhaps some other saints, depending on the campaign needs.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Khorne is the only Warhammer god with a single major aspect: War. He fights and kills. Lesser aspects including hunting, assasination, and the technology that advances war. He is opposed to Slaanesh, who takes pleasure from things other then war. He epitomizes Man's territorial instincts.

Tzeentch has MANY aspects. He's the Maker of Change; he tends to favor the ambitious, the elite, the gifted, the noble. He mutates others, he grants power as the patron of magic and spellcasters, he inspires the worthy to rise above the petty. He is opposed to Nurgle, who has roots among the common man. Tzeentch epitomizes man's urge to be the alpha.

Slaanesh is all about pleasure, dissolution, and decadence,turning everything into a new experience. He epitomizes man's sex drive and pursuit of new things.

Nurgle represents disease and decay, but also Man's raw survival instincts, pack mentality, and unending endurance. His followers are almost always among the base born, so he is opposed to Tzeentch's followers. Oddly enough, he's also the patron of many necromancers, as corpses coming back to life is a symbol of endurance beyond death.

=======================

Khorne has no real demonic counterparts. He is not a Prince, like Demogorgon...he is all about endless war, without restraint. He's a CE TEmpus-type. Oddly enough, there is no demon lord with a level that is engaged in nothing but endless war. Such things are left on Acheron, I guess.

Tzeentch, you have to deal with just how many spheres of knowledge he covers. Magic, alchemy, psionics, dark secrets, mutation, nobility...
The best compromise here is both Abraxis for his spreading of dark magic without scruples, and Pazuzu for his elitism and looking down on other demons. Demogorgon could also serve as an Aspect of the Changer of Ways, since he's a breeder of weird beasts and has multiple personalities whose plans often conflict with one another.

Slaanesh can be represented by any succubi based god. Graz'zt and Malancathet are good choices.

Nurgle's base corruption is probably best represented by Zuggtmoy, whose ties to the earth are fundamentally opposed to Pazuzu. Juiblex is the exemplar of something overexposed to disease and rot. Any other pestilence-spewing demon would work, but Nurgle is a mother/father figure, constantly generating little plaguelings and eating them with loving kindness.
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I did something similar to what you are doing in my campaign, but the 'dark gods' are different from the normal gods of evil in that their power is not reliant on the faith of mortals. Their power strives directly from actions that happen in the world...any conflict of arms is food and drink to Klaw the Destroyer, any unrestricted use of magic helped jRaztl, gluttony and plague furthered Riggibuhl, and decadence and sensation were beloved of Suu-ashiy. Nobody has to worship them, they get no strength from worship/faith...they get power from the deeds that are the source of the power, and to serve them, you simply make such things come about, for which they will reward you.

It's a different approach...they are rivals of all the gods of faith, including the evil ones...which don't preclude them working together, but it also means that they can outlast faith-based gods of evil within their portfolios, and subsume them over time...something not appreciated by the Evil Gods.

===Aelryinth

Dark Archive

I also plan to exclude the need for worshipers. The gods of humanity are tied to the heavenly bodies. Sol is in fact the intelligent sun that hangs over the planet, just to make an example. Lesser gods, or saints, will also be independent. Their powers could come from something like Golarion's Starstone, or perhaps Azath Houses of Malazan novels.

This is the way that PCs can become "saints", eventually. But they can never reach the cosmic proportions of power that Elder Gods, or Chaos Gods poses.

Grand Lodge

Curious, Aron's etymology....?

Dark Archive

He was originally the god of storms, skies and mountaintops. Aron was the brother of Moses in the Bible, and his name supposedly comes from the word "har", which means hill or mountain. Also, "Aron" is phonetically similar to "Uran", which is how the "Uranus" is pronounced in my language, and Uranus was the Greek god of the sky.


It's interesting to note that NONE of your true gods (good, neutral or evil) are chaotic (although you haven't given the alignments of the dwarven Allfather & elven Triune Goddess...). All your chaotic "gods" are the "risen demon princes/lords", i.e. CE.

As there are only 2 (perhaps 4, depending on the dwarven & elven racial gods) good-aligned gods and many evil and neutral aligned ones, it would seem that the "cosmic conflict" of your world is not Good vs. Evil, but rather Law vs. Chaos (and where chaos is perceived as the "negative" aspect of the conflict [i.e. "Evil"], although law is not necessarily made to be the "positive" aspect...).

This is NOT a bad thing, especially for those (i.e. the players) who are not necessarily aware of the big picture (like the GM usually is). It does make it easier for players to get into the setting.
No, I'm not saying that a complex setting is bad. But such settings, no matter how much praise they may receive, ARE more difficult for players (especially inexperienced ones... or immature ones <grrr>...) to GET the setting (and all the themes/plots/metaplot, etc.). Just saying...

Was this a deliberate choice, or is it just something that happened unintentionally? (I.e. you hadn't noticed until it was pointed out... :D )

I do like your simplified pantheon (i.e. the actual gods), btw.

Carry on!

-- C.

Apologies for all the inverted commas all over the place. I didn't want to seem to be putting words in anyone's mouth, so to speak.
(Especially if my observation wasn't intentional - don't want to stymie your creative muse by putting any preconceived thoughts on your work...)
;)


For me Demon Lords (or devil lords -- in fact all the 'lords' level outsiders) are as much below gods as mortals are seen to be below demon lords. My personal opinion has always been that part of the reason they are 'lords' is the fact that they have thus far failed to be 'god material'. Granted this has been bucked in the past, but I don't see it as a regular thing.


Socothbenoth is probably as close an analogy as you could get to Slaanesh, he's literally hedonism incarnate.

Contributor

Part of the trouble I tend to have with most game representations of the Hells, including the Abyss, is that the glass ceiling tends to be in place. There aren't many female demons or devils, and when you winnow out all the ones who deal with sex and/or fecundity, the list grows even smaller.

I think Pale Night is a rather cool demoness especially since she seems a lot like the First Evil from Buffy. If you crossed the two, you could get a suitably ancient horror that might work for one of your cast.

Scarab Sages

nightflier wrote:

I need five more Demon Lords/Gods and I'd also like to have replacements for Warhammer Chaos Gods. Just as reminder, they are:

Khorne: bloodlust, war, death
Tzeentch: change, fate, mutation
Nurgle: plague, despair, disease
Slaanesh: lust, pleasure, excess

Grazz't can serve as a replacement for Slaanesh, and I was thinking Abraxas as a replacement for Tzeentch.

If you're still looking for number five, there was a fifth Chaos God in Warhammer canon, at least up to Third Edition, at any rate.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

actually there were six or seven, as well as a couple law gods, but they never get written upon after the single book in the Death on the Reik series that intros them.

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive

Psiphyre wrote:

It's interesting to note that NONE of your true gods (good, neutral or evil) are chaotic (although you haven't given the alignments of the dwarven Allfather & elven Triune Goddess...). All your chaotic "gods" are the "risen demon princes/lords", i.e. CE.

As there are only 2 (perhaps 4, depending on the dwarven & elven racial gods) good-aligned gods and many evil and neutral aligned ones, it would seem that the "cosmic conflict" of your world is not Good vs. Evil, but rather Law vs. Chaos (and where chaos is perceived as the "negative" aspect of the conflict [i.e. "Evil"], although law is not necessarily made to be the "positive" aspect...).

This is NOT a bad thing, especially for those (i.e. the players) who are not necessarily aware of the big picture (like the GM usually is). It does make it easier for players to get into the setting.
No, I'm not saying that a complex setting is bad. But such settings, no matter how much praise they may receive, ARE more difficult for players (especially inexperienced ones... or immature ones <grrr>...) to GET the setting (and all the themes/plots/metaplot, etc.). Just saying...

Was this a deliberate choice, or is it just something that happened unintentionally? (I.e. you hadn't noticed until it was pointed out... :D )

I do like your simplified pantheon (i.e. the actual gods), btw.

Carry on!

-- C.

Apologies for all the inverted commas all over the place. I didn't want to seem to be putting words in anyone's mouth, so to speak.
(Especially if my observation wasn't intentional - don't want to stymie your creative muse by putting any preconceived thoughts on your work...)
;)

Dvarven Allfather is essentially Moradin, but reskined to LN alignment, with G tendencies. Triune Goddess of the elves is CG in alignment, for the most part. She has three aspects - Maiden, Mother and Crone, sort of like Christian Trinity, where all aspects are both different personalities and the same. Crone is CN, with E tendencies. Elves also had a God, but he was captured during the Long War and corrupted to a mindless God-Beast, so he has degenerated to the level of a "saint"/demigod.

Now, you have sensed correctly the tone of the setting. It is intended to be grim and dirty, along the lines of Malazan and Black Company novels, with a dose of Warhammer and Eberron. The basic conflict is along the lines Sol-Chton, two brothers. The first one is the intelligent Sun of the local solar system. The other one is intelligent black hole, trapped in the middle of the huge planet.

Now, there will be certain number of lesser gods/saints of other alignments, mostly N, NG and NE in alignments, but there will be several CG ones.

There is a greater possibility of saints taking interest in players than one of the great powers, though.

Now, the whole point of reducing the number of deities is because I want to achieve greater immersion of players in the setting. In my experience, those who play divine casters, paladins or religious characters mostly concentrate on their chosen deities - and only certain aspects of those deities - and disregard the rest of the pantheon. I want to make religion an important part of the setting, since the whole thing is essentially built upon the conflict between two immensely powerful beings - Sol and Chton.

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
For me Demon Lords (or devil lords -- in fact all the 'lords' level outsiders) are as much below gods as mortals are seen to be below demon lords. My personal opinion has always been that part of the reason they are 'lords' is the fact that they have thus far failed to be 'god material'. Granted this has been bucked in the past, but I don't see it as a regular thing.

For a long time, that was my opinion as well. But now, I realized that something like that doesn't make sense, in fact. Someone like Graz'zt, who controls three layers of Abyss, must be more powerful than a deity from a small world in the misbegotten part of a galaxy far away. But, demon lords are antithesis of the gods. They were there before the gods, so it makes sense for them not to have churches, priests or stuff like that.

I can imagine some devil or demon lord behind neopaganism of Waffen SS, but not behind Catholic Church or protestant witch hunts in New England (except Asmodeus, anyway).

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