Which Demon Lords Deserve to Be Upgraded to Gods?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Dark Archive

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Part of the trouble I tend to have with most game representations of the Hells, including the Abyss, is that the glass ceiling tends to be in place. There aren't many female demons or devils, and when you winnow out all the ones who deal with sex and/or fecundity, the list grows even smaller.

I think Pale Night is a rather cool demoness especially since she seems a lot like the First Evil from Buffy. If you crossed the two, you could get a suitably ancient horror that might work for one of your cast.

That is true. I plan to deal with that. I must admit that there are more male Chaos Gods in my Chaos Star - but that is because I wanted to use established D&D names.

Cosmology of my campaign is pretty much gender-equal. The oldest and most powerful beings in the multiverse are: Asmodeus, Jazirian, Tiamat (The Empress of Chaos) and Lady of Pain. The Elder Gods are Sol, Luna, Aron, Gaia and Mitra, who is the son of Sol and Luna and destined savior of the mankind.

Most prominent lesser gods, or "saints" are Cain, patron of assassins, and Lilith, patroness of bad luck.

So, I think it's pretty much gender-equal.


nightflier wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
For me Demon Lords (or devil lords -- in fact all the 'lords' level outsiders) are as much below gods as mortals are seen to be below demon lords. My personal opinion has always been that part of the reason they are 'lords' is the fact that they have thus far failed to be 'god material'. Granted this has been bucked in the past, but I don't see it as a regular thing.
For a long time, that was my opinion as well. But now, I realized that something like that doesn't make sense, in fact. Someone like Graz'zt, who controls three layers of Abyss, must be more powerful than a deity from a small world in the misbegotten part of a galaxy far away. But, demon lords are antithesis of the gods. They were there before the gods, so it makes sense for them not to have churches, priests or stuff like that.

Sure if you believe what they tell you. I'm not about to take their word without a very large supply of salt.

Also just because they rule vast parts of an outer plane doesn't actually make them personally powerful in the same ways that gods are powerful. Consider the number of layers in the abyss then consider how small of a fraction of that 3 is -- really not that potent at that point.

The gods carry weight at all times... the 'lords'... not so much. Finally consider how often these 'lords' are considered secretive or 'not that well known' -- if this is the case they simply don't have that much power in comparison.

I would put it thus -- The 'lords' have to focus more into each of their servants because they have so few of them. They really have to pour out the rewards to make themselves look worth while. Yes Graz'zt might rule 3 planes of the Abyss, but not everyone knows his name -- however Zon-Kuthon is known even if not everyone likes him. He has more inter planar recognition and actual power from his followers. There is more 'weight' behind him as his Godhood is backed up (through acknowledgement) by those that don't even worship him.

As I see it temporal power on portion of a plane (which each layer is) isn't worth as much on the 'god scale' as wide spread acknowledgement of Godhood across the planes.

I'm not saying that the 'lords' (of which there are many -- the empyreal lords for example fall into this in my opinion as do the elemental lords) aren't powerful... simply that they aren't full blown gods yet (much like demi-gods aren't completely there yet).

Dark Archive

Well, your argument has merits. One of my initial pet peeves with 3.0 was that Asmodeus became god. On the other hand, if a mortal can become a god, than it should be even easier for demon, devil or angel to do so as well.

My campaign world more than a little bit different than Oerth, Golarion or Toril. For instance, it is about four times as large as planet Earth. It has more continents and greater land-sea ratio. It also has one moon, but it had two at one point and the remaining moon is larger than Earth's. There are no drow. Dwarves can not be wizards and elves can not become clerics (or paladins, for that matter). There are no dragon "races". Each dragon is a unique creature.

What I am trying to say is that this project of mine is not to be implemented on a large scale, across D&D board. It is intended as something exactly opposite - a precise modification of existing ideas to fit a campaign world that was very much shaped by the actions of PCs.


Not a problem, I certainly understand such a position -- and I would certainly concede that in a home brew game my personal position of the metaphysics involved could be completely wrong.

For my own personal games that is how I generally see things (and my understand or at least theory on the grander scheme of things in pathfinder) -- however I can't claim it is the only way or completely right even.

For my games: Killing a God is even more difficult than killing a 'lord' -- a god has a more direct tie to the things that make up his portfolio and domains. As such simply participating in an activity covered by his portfolio is an act of worship in its own way. The activity has importance and relevance that helps support and bolster the Deity's position. In order to actually kill a god you would have to remove his influence from the things in his portfolio or destroy that which makes up his portfolio as a whole. You have to sunder his link to what provides him power (worship). While the God has influence on his portfolio it too has influence on him. Given time worshipers can actually change a God -- by connecting him to new activities and changing the purpose and method of the prayers they send. Now granted no one worshiper is going to manage this on their own, but if the enough of the faithful can be persuaded to change the worship slightly you can actually change the God's alignment and portfolio in time (or simply grow it). This is part of why no one God has taken over -- it's very hard to have a portfolio that encompasses everything and not have bits and pieces fall off in time. Also the gods have good reason to interact and help guide their faithful lest their followers change them instead.

Of course that is my own bit there -- take it for what you will.

Contributor

I've been playing since 1st edition and my standpoint has always been that the demon princes and dukes of Hell are gods. They have worshippers and cults. They grant spells. They occasionally show up when their names are spoken. They only reason they are not called "gods" is a matter of politics and the fact that a good or neutral person has no business worshiping them since all they really do is really evil stuff, as opposed to some evil gods who might personally be evil but could still be worshiped by neutral or good people because they're the only game in town.

Take for example the old Aztec rain god Tlaloc. Nasty, evil god who causes floods, droughts and pestilence. However, he also dispenses good water for the crops and drinking if you propitiate him right, and everyone needs water, so you have to deal with him if you want it despite him being evil since he's got a monopoly on the water works.

Going to Golarion, you've got Lamashtu who's an evil demoness who's stepped up to goddess status and taken over being goddess of beasts because she killed the nice god who used to be in charge of that. If your business is, say, breeding horses, and you're wanting to crossbreed them favorably, you might want to propitiate Lamashtu exactly the same way an Aztec would want to propitiate Tlaloc. You fear her and hate her, but you're also cognizant of the fact that she's the one who's in charge of what it is you're worried about, so you don't just get to comparison shop to the other gods to see if someone can offer you a better deal. Lamashtu is in charge of beasts and crossbreeding so everything from mules to the Sandpoint Devil happened under her auspices. What you would really like is just a nice healthy quarter horse you can train to draw your carriage. That's it. No wings or fangs or flames shooting out of its eyes or anything fancy. Just an attractive quarter horse.

Shadow Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
stuff

I like this, because let's face it, the Four Horsemen (for example) have a much wider range of influence and power than does some podunk "god" that sprung up a couple of hundred years ago and isn't even known on all the continents of their home world (sorry Iomedae).

Dark Archive

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
I've been playing since 1st edition and my standpoint has always been that the demon princes and dukes of Hell are gods. They have worshippers and cults. They grant spells.

Pretty much, yeah. Ever since the Bloodstone modules came out with clerics of Orcus, I've run them as demigods. Bumping Asmodeus, iron-fisted ruler of an entire series of nested planes, up to the same status as the various hoi-polloi gods scattered around the upper planes, with their tiny little adjacent territories, seemed like a fine choice. Since my players tended to prefer various lesser gods and demigods, for their clerics, I mostly ignored the 'demigods can only grant up to 5th level spells' stuff as well.

(Was Lolth the one who broke the glass ceiling, going from Demon Queen of Spiders to actual goddess, in Dieties & Demigods? I don't remember...)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Yes. Straight from Demon Queen of Spiders to Intermediate Goddess patron of the drow. It was an impressive leap.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

You only got half the story there, Aelryinth,

Lolth went from Demon Queen of Spiders w/ 60 HP to Intermediate Goddess Matron of the Drow.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

66 HP.

I have a copy of the original FF :P And GDQ where she was intro'd with her 3 heal selfs a day...

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive

Set wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
I've been playing since 1st edition and my standpoint has always been that the demon princes and dukes of Hell are gods.
(Was Lolth the one who broke the glass ceiling, going from Demon Queen of Spiders to actual goddess, in Dieties & Demigods? I don't remember...)

Per 1st Ed Deities and Demigods (and Legends and Lore later), the Archfiends of Hell and the Demon Princes and even the Elemental Princes were always Lesser god status anyways. Later books in 1st Ed would add Dukes of Hell (every DM needs to roleplaying Titivus once in is career!) and Demon Lords who did not rule entire layers, I assumed those to be Demigods in status.

Lolth was a lesser goddess until 2nd Ed where she graduated to Intermediate goddess status, Asmodeus made it to Greater god status and had the ability to have 10 avatars active all at once, one to potentially play political officer for each layer of Hell, and one as an 'ambassador at large' in the prime.

Dark Archive

W E Ray wrote:

You only got half the story there, Aelryinth,

Lolth went from Demon Queen of Spiders w/ 60 HP to Intermediate Goddess Matron of the Drow.

Aelryinth wrote:

66 HP.

I have a copy of the original FF :P And GDQ where she was intro'd with her 3 heal selfs a day...

==Aelryinth

She did have those 3 heals per day, -9 AC which was almost as good as you could get, and those 66 HP became 132 on her home layer of the Abyss (66th), as per Manual of the Planes. on that plane she could Shapechange and cast Limited Wish as well. I had a group of 13 players (!) in 1st Ed that drove her away from her layer but never killed her.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Did you use Animal Growth'd Abyssal Giant SPiders on your players?

They really hated those 16+16 HD beasties. Doubled for a Chaotic plane, then doubled for Animal Growth! :)

===Aelryinth

Dark Archive

Aelryinth wrote:

Did you use Animal Growth'd Abyssal Giant SPiders on your players?

They really hated those 16+16 HD beasties. Doubled for a Chaotic plane, then doubled for Animal Growth! :)

===Aelryinth

In some random 1e or 2e adventure, there was an encounter where if you killed one of a pair of winter wolves (I think it was), the other got mad and the adventure said to 'double everything.'

Our DM was feeling puckish (and we were walking through the encounter anyway) so he doubled everything. It's AC was twice as good, it had double hit points, it had twice as many attacks *and* they were twice as accurate *and* they did double damage.

And then, with a grin, he also doubled the 'number appearing.' The she-wolf was so pissed that we killed her wolf-hubby that she split into two 'double-everything' she-wolves!

Dark Archive

Aelryinth wrote:

Did you use Animal Growth'd Abyssal Giant SPiders on your players?

They really hated those 16+16 HD beasties. Doubled for a Chaotic plane, then doubled for Animal Growth! :)

===Aelryinth

No but the elite Drow spell casters on the raised ziggurats surrounded by undead sure humbled my pcs.

:)

Dark Archive

Set wrote:
In some random 1e or 2e adventure, there was an encounter where if you killed one of a pair of winter wolves (I think it was), the other got mad and the adventure said to 'double everything.'

I barely remember a situation where something similar would happen in the caverns of the Frost Giant Jarl, where he had two white dragons and if you killed one of them the other would become like 'The Hulk' in combat.

In the Drow series there was a Drow vampire that would be so angered if the players slew his succubus lover that he would bat away holy symbols from Clerics hands while they were trying to turn or hold him at bay.

Set wrote:
And then, with a grin, he also doubled the 'number appearing.' The she-wolf was so pissed that we killed her wolf-hubby that she split into two 'double-everything' she-wolves!

That's still a little better than "rocks fall everybody dies."

Grand Lodge

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
In the Drow series there was a Drow vampire that would be so angered if the players slew his succubus lover that he would bat away holy symbols from Clerics hands while they were trying to turn or hold him at bay.

This encounter remains THE BEST non-BBEG encounter in any Adventure ever published.

The whole illusioned cavern deep in the Underdark is great and the fact that the PCs, who are no doubt suspicious of the angel-statue (succubus) but even still have no idea there's also a vampire somewhere in the illusion, are caught off guard at least once (the succubus who can fly up to the ceiling) and usually twice (her hiding vampire lover).

This is the best encounter of D3 -- and that's sayin' alot!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ah, classic GDQ. So many fond memories.

Our greatest time was running the mushroom forests in the Vault of the Drow. We gathered up tons of slaves, ambushed hunting parties of demons that chain-summoned other demons...there was one group of 8 bar-igura, and by the time the fight was over, we'd killed 33 of them.

Lots of xp. Good times!

==Aelryinth

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