You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
If you're equating terrorism with actions against civilians, the population of Alderaan would like a word with you about about the Empire's tactics.
LEIA: (softly) Dantooine.
Leia lowers her head.
LEIA: They're on Dantooine.
Seems to me a little excessive, don't you.
That little exchange is instructive for two reasons:
1) It makes it clear that Leia is a part of an organized and dangerous group and has received training to resist interrogation. She has been so dangerously radicalized that even when her home planet is under threat she lies.
2) It's clear that the interrogators need the ability to take the kid gloves off. How many human lives could have been saved had she said Yavin IV instead of lieing? The limits on the type of interrogation techniques and their frequency of use are a quaint hold-over from a different era when we were used to fighting a civilized foe, not these Bothan, Mon Cals and other non-human scum and their sympathizers.
And of course, when she was released, the first thing she did was return back the Rebel scum and begin plotting more attacks.
Well, let's see, the Death Star had over 630.000 troops on board, 300 Tie Fighter Wings (over 7200 Tie Fighters), 4 Strike Class Capitol Ship Cruisers, 2840 Skipray Blastboats, 3600 Assault Shuttles, along with nearly 12000 various military land vehicles. Yet, rather than make a more effective display of what the Death Star could bring to bare, Tarkin decided to utlize the most excessive tool as his disposal - the planet destroying laser of the Death Star. He single handedly turned the 'seditious fugitive' Bail Organa and the nearly 2 BILLION inhabitants of Alderaan intoa rallying cry for the rest of the - from the Imperial perspective - insurgents and terrorists. That's akin to the US hatemongering that has become rampant thanks to Bush's preemptive war policy's. Nah, Tarking screwed up big time and gave a legitimacy to the Galactic insurgents.
Still a weasel. You can respect someone that shoots you for their side: at least their honest in their intentions: but even your traitor is still a traitor.
It's more of a revolution rather than terrorist activity because they are rebelling against an unfair government in which they are forced to live under. Princess Leia is more of George Washington rather than Osama Bin Laden.
George Washington fought a war over taxes. Princess Leia fought genocidal speciesist tyrants. Even the best rhetoric shows that the Star Wars rebellion was more just.
Besides which, who's to say a government is unfair? Rebels don't rise up just to be jerks--even the most extreme have some reasoning.
http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-keno bi-is-killed.html
All propaganda.
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I was ninja'ed for Chinatown, but that won't stop me:
Luke could've saved himself a lot of trouble if he had dealt with terrorist leader Kenobi like this!
"Jake, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Stormtroopers are merely mass recruited and brainwashed. CLONE troopers were Jango Fett clones, but they were pretty much out of the game by A new hope.
As to the original question: Some may claim that the rebellion are doing much the same things the empire is. This ignores the very simple fact that the empire has power, and the rebellion hasn't. If the empire was a good deal, it might have been one thing, but it is a monster that victimizes aliens, denies the people any political power, and uses torture. Thus:
Death to all tyrants!
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As if I didn't have reason enough to prefer Star Trek over Star Wars -- what with George Lucas having cast off all pretenses of being little more than a very successful TOY SALESMAN and devolving to the point where even the stuff he writes on cocktail napkins, in crayon, while using a rather unkempt men's room at a Denny's in L.A., are turned into merchandise lines the fanboys gobble as quickly as Jabba the Hutt with a fresh-from-the-microwave Hot Pocket -- I find out that Hooper X was RIGHT AFTER ALL!!
[flashback]
"Hooper: Bust this: Those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down, even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this ****: You got ****** farm boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy, blond hair, blue eyes. And then you got Darth Vader, the blackest brother in the galaxy, Nubian god!
Banky Edwards: What's a Nubian?
Hooper: Shut the **** up! Now... Vader, he's a spiritual brother, y'know, down with the force and all that good ****. Then this ******, Skywalker, gets his hands on a light saber and the boy decides he's gonna run the ****** universe; gets a whole clan of whites together. And they go and bust up Vader's hood, the Death Star. Now what the **** do you call that?
Banky Edwards: Intergalactic civil war?
Hooper: Gentrification! They gon' drive out the black element to make the galaxy quote, unquote, safe for white folks. And Jedi's the most insulting installment! Because Vader's beautiful black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty, old white man! They tryin' to tell us that deep inside we all wants to be white!
Banky Edwards: Well, isn't that true?
[Hooper pulls out his gun, shoots Banky] "
[/flashback]
Thank you, Kevin Smith, for that amazing, yet now proven definitively to be true, conspiracy theory, though it was, I see now, thinly veiled as social satire.
Stormtroopers are merely mass recruited and brainwashed. CLONE troopers were Jango Fett clones, but they were pretty much out of the game by A new hope.
You're partially correct. While Fett cloning had stopped about ten years before the original trilogy, 1/3 of imperial stormtroopers in service during the New Hope Era were based off of the Fett template.
Thing is, the canon doesn't say either way. Noncanon sources include things like the clone troopers aging very rapidly, and so all of them were replaced by the rebellion era.
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Princess Leia and the Republic attacked military forces, NOT civilian forces. So, she's not like Osama bin Laden.
The population of the unfinished Death Star II was probably minimum 50 contractors to every Imperial soldier.
:P
To bring this closer to the real world, if I was the leader of a 3rd world nation with a crappy economy and an even worse infrastructure, I'd damn well sponsor a terrorist attack on the USA. They come in, kill a few people, then rebuild your country and your economy. Not a horrible trade-off.
You mean they find someone to claim is you, kill that guy, dump him in the ocean and don't show anyone pictures? Yeah, that is terrible.
To bring this closer to the real world, if I was the leader of a 3rd world nation with a crappy economy and an even worse infrastructure, I'd damn well sponsor a terrorist attack on the USA. They come in, kill a few people, then rebuild your country and your economy. Not a horrible trade-off.
If you are talking about Iraq, not quite.
First, it was one of the most economically advanced of arab countries before the first gulf war (or Kuweit war).
Second, a large chunk of the rebuilding effort was akin to pouring water into the sand (ie, giving money to US contractors for crappy, unfinished and unneeded projects).
You can find a funny blog written by an ex department state employee, in charge of various Recontruction Teams in Iraq here. My favorite is the story about how they spent millions of dollars to build a brand new, state of the art, chicken processing plant in the middle of nowhere, before realizing that cranking out frozen chickens in a country where there was no reliable freeze chain or power grid anymore was sort of pointless... Needless to say, the plant was abandoned even before its opening.
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I could be wrong, but the Star Wars conflict itself (not the overall story) is closer to the Vietnam War.
The Rebels hide among the civilian, so the Empire attacks everybody they suspect. Rebels are going only after the Empire's soldiers and military equipment. Rebels represent the people and what they really want. Empire represents what they want for the people.
I don't know Vietnam very well compared to other conflict however.
The vietnamese didn't really target that many american civilians, no... invasions do that.
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This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
It is true that we never see the rebels killing civilians or directly causing civilian deaths in the movies which celebrate them as heroes ^^
Must be the truth surely. Because George Lucas said so.
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Princess Leia and the Republic attacked military forces, NOT civilian forces. So, she's not like Osama bin Laden.The population of the unfinished Death Star II was probably minimum 50 contractors to every Imperial soldier.
:P
To bring this closer to the real world, if I was the leader of a 3rd world nation with a crappy economy and an even worse infrastructure, I'd damn well sponsor a terrorist attack on the USA. They come in, kill a few people, then rebuild your country and your economy. Not a horrible trade-off.
Be careful, if you're the Duchy of Grand Fenwick you might win!
You'd also have to be pretty altruistic. Things don't tend to go very well for the leaders.
We've captured the Q bomb!
Here is Princess Leia, a major Terrorist leader in the terrorist uprising against the Government (The Empire). She is the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden (for want of a parallel).
They blow up a major Government Military Facility (The Death Star) and kill thousands if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel.
SO thirty years ago we would have seen the terrorists as goodies and the Government as the villain against whom we might do anything and everything necessary to end them? Its a state that condones torture and interrogation and violation of diplomatic treaties to win...
So Luke and the Jedi are fundamentalist religious nutters who need extermination for the preservation of a secular state? Princess Leia is a terrorist leader operating under diplomatic documents? Han Solo is a criminal and smuggler supporting the Terrorists?
When did it all go wrong?
Should Spielberg and Lucas be b#@#* slapped for choosing the wrong side? Should we reboot Star Wars and tell it from the side of the Empire?
This post doesn't make a lick of sense.
- Attacking military targets is not "terrorism". Why do you incorrectly use that word? (Are you American?)
- Did the Rebellion ever target civilians?
This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.It is true that we never see the rebels killing civilians or directly causing civilian deaths in the movies which celebrate them as heroes ^^
Must be the truth surely. Because George Lucas said so.
Well, yes, because he said so, he's the author of the work; we're not talking about a historical event where the winner wrote the history, are we?
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Here is Princess Leia, a major Terrorist leader in the terrorist uprising against the Government (The Empire). She is the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden (for want of a parallel).
They blow up a major Government Military Facility (The Death Star) and kill thousands if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel.
SO thirty years ago we would have seen the terrorists as goodies and the Government as the villain against whom we might do anything and everything necessary to end them? Its a state that condones torture and interrogation and violation of diplomatic treaties to win...
So Luke and the Jedi are fundamentalist religious nutters who need extermination for the preservation of a secular state? Princess Leia is a terrorist leader operating under diplomatic documents? Han Solo is a criminal and smuggler supporting the Terrorists?
When did it all go wrong?
Should Spielberg and Lucas be b#@#* slapped for choosing the wrong side? Should we reboot Star Wars and tell it from the side of the Empire?
This post doesn't make a lick of sense.
- Attacking military targets is not "terrorism". Why do you incorrectly use that word? (Are you American?)
- Did the Rebellion ever target civilians?
OK George Washington...how do you put it when you conduct an uprising against the legitimate (though utterly despised) government whose authority you are obliged as a citizen to concede to?
Terrorist until you win? Then it becomes an Uprising of the popular minority.
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It's more of a revolution rather than terrorist activity because they are rebelling against an unfair government in which they are forced to live under. Princess Leia is more of George Washington rather than Osama Bin Laden.
So it would only be terrorism if it cost the lives of many Bothans to secure the plans to your military base? Or would they have had to walk through the front door of the Storm Trooper Training center strapped with explosives and conducted suicide bombings?
No, as a matter of fact, the emperor did get his powers through a vote initiated by the esteemed senator Binks (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). The point of these powers was to effectively fight the War on Separatists, targeting a faction secretly supported by Palpatine. The senate was not dissolved as far as we know, but Grand Moff Tarkin had plans to do so. This was the main point of the death star, and the reason they chose to destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of its power. It was a powerless body since the appointments of the sector governors early on in the Dark times, however.
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No, as a matter of fact, the emperor did get his powers through a vote initiated by the esteemed senator Binks (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). The point of these powers was to effectively fight the War on Separatists, targeting a faction secretly supported by Palpatine. The senate was not dissolved as far as we know, but Grand Moff Tarkin had plans to do so. This was the main point of the death star, and the reason they chose to destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of its power. It was a powerless body since the appointments of the sector governors early on in the Dark times, however.
The Tarkin Doctrine of Rule through Fear, I believe it is called.
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Well, yes, because he said so, he's the author of the work; we're not talking about a historical event where the winner wrote the history, are we?Then again, even within that fictional work we've seen revisionist history. Like Greedo shooting first.
He clearly can't be trusted as a narrator.
The empire is EVIL! it says so in black and yellow, right at the start of the movie!!!
in all seriousness, it seems likely that for the most part the empire is at worst apathetic, not caring for the problems of the people. the emperor is evil, sure, but he can't be everywhere at once. as for an armed rebellion being terrorists, well, if they've already tried to make change in a non-violent manner and were arrested/killed/exiled for it, then surely it's political activism, not terrorism (well, probably more in the gray zone between the two).
that said, there was a galaxy wide party when the empire was defeated. if there's an indication that maybe, just maybe, you weren't working for the good of the people, it's when everyone welcomes a group of violent extreemests as your replacement.
of course, if you just gave the entire population free high-speed internet, a copy of WoW and subscription TV then 98% of them would never have gotten around to rebelling, and you could monitor their activities so you'd know who the other 2% were.
This.
i knew there was something i had forgotten to post! when i first saw this thread i thought of this, then i forgot about it.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqF_CVQ_U_I
The troops parody of COPS. Shows what really went down at the Lars homestead.
OK George Washington...how do you put it when you conduct an uprising against the legitimate (though utterly despised) government whose authority you are obliged as a citizen to concede to?
Terrorist until you win? Then it becomes an Uprising of the popular minority.
A rebellion, of course.
- The rebels did not target civilians.
- The rebels were uniformed combatants, even with their own "flag".
- The rebels did not "systematically use terror as a means of coercion".
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OK George Washington...how do you put it when you conduct an uprising against the legitimate (though utterly despised) government whose authority you are obliged as a citizen to concede to?
Terrorist until you win? Then it becomes an Uprising of the popular minority.
A rebellion, of course.
- The rebels did not target civilians.
- The rebels were uniformed combatants, even with their own "flag".
- The rebels did not "systematically use terror as a means of coercion".
Isn't their flag the crest of a Sith lord dark jedi assassin type? Galen Marek?
There are some real-life countries whose legitimate governments use torture and destroy the environment, and their populace just let it happen. There's even some I can think of that start with the letter "U". I don't think anyone calls those countries terrorists.
/looks at Uzbekistan
You got served!
/intentional misunderstanding.
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No, as a matter of fact, the emperor did get his powers through a vote initiated by the esteemed senator Binks (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). The point of these powers was to effectively fight the War on Separatists, targeting a faction secretly supported by Palpatine. The senate was not dissolved as far as we know, but Grand Moff Tarkin had plans to do so. This was the main point of the death star, and the reason they chose to destroy Alderaan as a demonstration of its power. It was a powerless body since the appointments of the sector governors early on in the Dark times, however.
That's right...lay it all on Jar Jar Binks - political scapegoat and sock puppet.
There are some real-life countries whose legitimate governments use torture and destroy the environment, and their populace just let it happen. There's even some I can think of that start with the letter "U". I don't think anyone calls those countries terrorists.
/looks at Uzbekistan
You got served!
/intentional misunderstanding.
I am sure there are thosewho would call Uganda terrorists, but it's not kind to imply that.
Rebels are just terrorists that history looks back upon fondly.
No.
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Rebels are just terrorists that history looks back upon fondly.No.
Yes.
If the "rebels" win, they get to erase the proof of any terrorist-like activity on their part.
If the "terrorists" are defeated, then the side that won displays their actions in the worst possible light, including terrorist-like actions they may not have actually engaged in.
Maybe.
It all depends on which rebels you're talking about.
Founding Fathers of the United States? Sure. The Southern Christian Leadership Conference? Not so much.
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Rebels are just terrorists that history looks back upon fondly.No.Yes.
If the "rebels" win, they get to erase the proof of any terrorist-like activity on their part.
If the "terrorists" are defeated, then the side that won displays their actions in the worst possible light, including terrorist-like actions they may not have actually engaged in.
Absolutely not true. There are very specific definitions that can be applied to terrorists. In the case of the rebel alliance, they are a uniformed military organization with a clear chain of command, and in no way can be described as terrorists.
If you want to argue semantics, you can then decide if their military actions break any rules of war, or if they even should be held to the Geneva Convention, but it has nothing to do with terrorism.
For example:
The Japanese Empire pre-emptively attacked a US military target at Pearl Harbor during WWII. Did they kill civilians in the process? Yes, but their target was military. Just like the rebellion, they were uniformed combatants. Whatever you feel about Imperial Japan, I don't know of any historian who has called those actions terrorist.
Of course, Japan did many other things against civilian populations in China during that conflict that rate very high on the terrorism scale, but I'd separate those as isolated events