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Here is Princess Leia, a major Terrorist leader in the terrorist uprising against the Government (The Empire). She is the equivalent of Osama Bin Laden (for want of a parallel).
They blow up a major Government Military Facility (The Death Star) and kill thousands if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel.
SO thirty years ago we would have seen the terrorists as goodies and the Government as the villain against whom we might do anything and everything necessary to end them? Its a state that condones torture and interrogation and violation of diplomatic treaties to win...
So Luke and the Jedi are fundamentalist religious nutters who need extermination for the preservation of a secular state? Princess Leia is a terrorist leader operating under diplomatic documents? Han Solo is a criminal and smuggler supporting the Terrorists?
When did it all go wrong?
Should Spielberg and Lucas be b@~&+ slapped for choosing the wrong side? Should we reboot Star Wars and tell it from the side of the Empire?
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I created a survey asking exactly this way back in college in the 90s. If I remember correctly, it was amazing to realize more than 90% of respondents unknowingly aligned themselves with the Empire (based on how they answered questions).
Don't forget, at one point even Luke wanted to be an Imperial pilot and fight in 'the great star battles'...
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Its amazing how much people will put up with from THEIR empire while decrying anyone elses.
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Back when I was an active goblin militant I remember having this conversation with a comrade. I pointed out the massacre of Alderron (sp?) and he countered with Kronstadt (look it up if you don't know.)
Of course, the empire is ruled by a Sith lord, so I'm not sure how secular the state is. Also, at least in the first movie, they don't blow up the Death Star until it is brought to bear against them at Yavin, so that would qualify more as a battle, not a terrorist action.
Regardless, even if we decide that the Rebellion is nothing more than a bunch of obscurantist terrorists, I'm on their side. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, after all.
Although the Empire does have better theme music.
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So lets take this a step further.
You have the Galactic republic. Not a perfect system but by no means the worst either. In many ways a hegemony.
Through extensive political manipulation a war is started, between the federalists and those who for one reason or another want more autonomy. A states rights vs federal rights situation. A civil war.
Then the same individual who produced the war in the first place manipulates the situation to include a war powers act to allow him to have more centralized power which then causes the rebels to more even further away politically. Not that anyone is aware of this except a few people in this old religious group which is now being generalized to keep them away from political power that they may have once had, by being a sort of secret police for the state. An Inquisition of sorts.
In one fell swoop this war powers act leads to an empire. Now those few who were paranoid of a political takeover, have "proof" for their conspiracy theories. Combine this that they are now a religiously persecuted group, they become terrorist. Or is it freedom fighters? Hard to tell sometimes even from the inside.
You have several battles over many years, both sides either through necessity or expedience manage to cause many atrocities, and deaths.
At this point who the good guy or bad guy is, is really a matter of opinion and who has hurt you the most.
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This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
If you're equating terrorism with actions against civilians, the population of Alderaan would like a word with you about about the Empire's tactics.
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This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
If you're equating terrorism with actions against civilians, the population of Alderaan would like a word with you about about the Empire's tactics.
You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?
You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
If you're equating terrorism with actions against civilians, the population of Alderaan would like a word with you about about the Empire's tactics.
Hee hee!
You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?
Vile impostor!
Princess Leia and the Republic attacked military forces, NOT civilian forces. So, she's not like Osama bin Laden.
That we know of. Of course, all our information about the whole conflict comes from some highly biased sources. Kind of like a combination of Fox News with al-Jazeera.
Osama bin Laden--attacked civilian and military targets (what else is the Pentagon?)
Princess Leia--attacked civilian (Jabba the Hutt, the civilian contractors working on the second Death Star) and military targets
Therefore, Princess Leia = al-Qaeda. Duh.
It's not terrorism when we do it!
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I must have missed the part in the Star Wars movies where the rebels blew up schools and marketplaces, or crashed their ships into office buildings, laughing it up about dead civilians.
Maybe it was in Episodes I-III. To be honest, I could never actually sit through those movies in their entirety.
Now, if you'd somehow compared Jar Jar Binks to Osama Bin Laden...huh, that I could actually see.
I think that who the rebels choose to target does make a difference, though.
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*sigh* Can we have one fun, good natured thread at Paizo that isn't ruined by people shoving their political views down everybody else's throats? Am I asking too much? I'm guessing yes.
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I'm sure we can, but I doubt it will ever be one where Citizen Dingo starts off with an equation between Princess Leia and Osama bin Laden.
This is kind of flawed logic.
The rebels blew up the Death Star in self defense. It was a military base, not the Pentagon. If they hadn't destroyed it, a second planet would have been destroyed.
Al Qaida attacked the WTC unprovoked, actually effectively using civilians as weapons (the planes, of course). Theirs was pretty much the attack that started the war, and certainly not self-defense.
According to the story we know, the Empire is still the Evil Empire, and the rebels are still La Resistance. :P
Should Spielberg and Lucas be b+$*~ slapped for choosing the wrong side? Should we reboot Star Wars and tell it from the side of the Empire?
No, but rebooting Ep. I-III and telling it as the tragedy of Obi-Wan Kenobi would be good. Anakin Skywalker is not a hero. Don't get me started on Clone Wars...
Oh, and Jabba the Hutt was pretty much a crime boss. Not an ordinary civilian. And, again, it was self-defense. :P
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Jabba the Hutt was a legitimate businessman who was attempting to recover the value of his goods from Han Solo. When that failed to be resolved in an equitable fashion, Jabba employed civilian contractors who worked with the legitimate authorities to crypto-freeze Citizen Solo and use him as a wall adornment. Some cultures have harsher legal codes than our own.
Then Princess Leia tries to blow up Jabba's pleasure-dome, and, in restitution, Jabba demands that she become a scantily-clad dancing girl. All above board, if you ask me. When more terrorists show up, and free Solo, Jabba decides to use an age-old punishment and decides to throw Solo, Skywalker and Chewbacca into the Scarlac pit. Again, all totally legal and just.
Princess Leia is a filthy, murdering terrorist and I wish Jabba had flattened her with his tail!
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I wish Jabba had killed Scarlett O'Hara, too.
Its not like we haven't painted the insurgents in iraq in pretty much the same light.
*sigh* Can we have one fun, good natured thread at Paizo that isn't ruined by people shoving their political views down everybody else's throats? Am I asking too much? I'm guessing yes.
I don't think you're asking too much but I'm pretty sure it won't be a thread with this title...
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Alderaan became a legitimate military target when its head of state (or Princess) hacked into and stole vital military intelligence on the Death Star. Alderaan then had the gall to hide the information on a consular ship and try to claim they were doing humanitarian work while they were rushing back to organize an attack.
Clearly Alderaan was planning an attack on the Death Star and a pre-emptive strike was warranted.
:P
Star Wars brings out the crypto-fascist in all the comrades.
*sigh* Can we have one fun, good natured thread at Paizo that isn't ruined by people shoving their political views down everybody else's throats? Am I asking too much? I'm guessing yes.I don't think you're asking too much but I'm pretty sure it won't be a thread with this title...
Ah, good point.
Star Wars brings out the crypto-fascist in all the comrades.
It's not fascism when we do it!
Hee hee!
*sigh* Can we have one fun, good natured thread at Paizo that isn't ruined by people shoving their political views down everybody else's throats? Am I asking too much? I'm guessing yes.
What?
Is that a thing we're doing?Were we arguing over the merits of a dictatorship?
Comparing Dick Cheney to Darth Vader (they have the same first letter, you know)?
Acting like such a comparison could be seriously viable?
I didn't see any political discussion, Gary. :P
You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
If you're equating terrorism with actions against civilians, the population of Alderaan would like a word with you about about the Empire's tactics.
LEIA: (softly) Dantooine.
Leia lowers her head.
LEIA: They're on Dantooine.
TARKIN: There. You see Lord Vader, she can be reasonable. (addressing
Motti) Continue with the operation. You may fire when ready.
LEIA: What?
TARKIN: You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an
effective demonstration. But don't worry. We will deal with your Rebel
friends soon enough.
Seems to me a little excessive, don't you.
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You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system! I grow tired of asking this so it will be the last time: *Where* is the rebel base?This about to get stupidly technical, considering we're discussing Star Wars, but the rebellion weren't terrorists. Enemy military personnel die in military actions.
If you're equating terrorism with actions against civilians, the population of Alderaan would like a word with you about about the Empire's tactics.
LEIA: (softly) Dantooine.
Leia lowers her head.
LEIA: They're on Dantooine.
Seems to me a little excessive, don't you.
That little exchange is instructive for two reasons:
1) It makes it clear that Leia is a part of an organized and dangerous group and has received training to resist interrogation. She has been so dangerously radicalized that even when her home planet is under threat she lies.
2) It's clear that the interrogators need the ability to take the kid gloves off. How many human lives could have been saved had she said Yavin IV instead of lieing? The limits on the type of interrogation techniques and their frequency of use are a quaint hold-over from a different era when we were used to fighting a civilized foe, not these Bothan, Mon Cals and other non-human scum and their sympathizers.
And of course, when she was released, the first thing she did was return back the Rebel scum and begin plotting more attacks.
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I would also remind you that Alderaan was harbouring a known fugitive and traitor, Bail Prestor Organa. More than a decade of terrorist activity and he signed the Correllian treaty.
Not just harbouring, he was their head of state. Clearly Alderaan was a Rogue State. The citizens of Alderaan have only themselves to blame. They could have and should have either risen up and turned him in, or voted with their feet.
Princess Leia and the Republic attacked military forces, NOT civilian forces. So, she's not like Osama bin Laden.I find it hard to believe an installation of that size would only have military personnel. Especially DSII... see the movie Clerks for more information.
How is the empire not terrorists themselves for their touture and interrogation techniques to scare the rebels into revealing their base. Is that not using fear to support an ends and thus terroism.
Also how many native plants did Alderaan have. I never have seen anything causing the rebels to cause a plant species to become extinct.
Now I am thinking about the Los Angles department of water and power. And the rebels are farmers in the owens valley in the 1920s and earlier. wait unlce Owen...
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How is the empire not terrorists themselves for their touture and interrogation techniques to scare the rebels into revealing their base. Is that not using fear to support an ends and thus terroism.
Also how many native plants did Alderaan have. I never have seen anything causing the rebels to cause a plant species to become extinct.
Now I am thinking about the Los Angles department of water and power. And the rebels are farmers in the owens valley in the 1920s and earlier. wait unlce Owen...
And there is a big reveal about the parentage of characters with regards to the main villain in the movie just like in Chinatown.
Noah Cross: Katherine! I, I'm your grandfather, my dear. I'm your grandfather.
Darth Vader: No. I am your father.
How is the empire not terrorists themselves for their touture and interrogation techniques to scare the rebels into revealing their base. Is that not using fear to support an ends and thus terroism.
Also how many native plants did Alderaan have. I never have seen anything causing the rebels to cause a plant species to become extinct.
Umm... there are some real-life countries whose legitimate governments use torture and destroy the environment, and their populace just let it happen. There's even some I can think of that start with the letter "U". I don't think anyone calls those countries terrorists.
<points discussion back to Star Wars>
Umm... there are some real-life countries whose legitimate governments use torture and destroy the environment, and their populace just let it happen.
By just "lets" it happen you mean doesn't decide to go up against people with tanks with rocks and sticks, sure.
You need a large army to win that kind of fight. You can't do it yourself, you need to convince a large number of people to do it with you or you're just commiting suicide. Getting that kind of organization together isn't easy.
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<points discussion back to Star Wars>
What about the Rebels recruitment of the mass murderer and religious zealot Ben Kenobi? And it takes him what, a week to radicalize and delude poor Luke into joining his religion after he leads the Sand People to the Lars farmstead?
Recall we only have his word that it was Stormtroopers who did the shooting, and he's a noted liar (his identity, luke's parentage, the 'death' of luke's father and his involvement in it, lies about his sister etc..) and kidnapper. Not to mention his proof of stormtrooper involvement is the fact that "Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."
We can clearly see from the rest of the films that this is patently not true. Stormtroopers are some of the worst shots in the galaxy.
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"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."
Only imperial storm troopers are that precise... but not accurate. They all hit the same place at the same time, it just happens that that place is 2 feet left of the target.
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"Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."
Only imperial storm troopers are that precise... but not accurate. They all hit the same place at the same time, it just happens that that place is 2 feet left of the target.
:)
I suppose that could be true.
Now what about his compatriots? Despite post facto revisionist attempts to paint Han Solo as a hero who only shoots in self defence, he clearly draws on and kills a skip tracer who was attempting to bring him to justice.
Imagine De Niro getting shot and killed by Charles Grodin in the opening sequence of Midnight Run?
I don't think there's a sociological, ethics or political question regarding Star Wars that hasn't been hacked to death by nerds (this one included). What I would say is that the Rebel Alliance are not terrorists by really any definition of the word.
They are actively engaged in a face-to-face war with the Empire, which they are using military methods to try to overthrow.
Terrorists do not do that. They bomb civilians and civilian places to try to force political, societal and religious change through utter fear (thus the term terrorism).
The Rebellion does not attack civilians, nor does it attack anybody to try to drum up fear as a means of forcing its will or change upon a populace. It is a military attacking military targets. And the goal of those attacks is clearly regime change from one that is actively oppressing and killing those under its rule, to one whose goal is to free those people from a totalitarian regime. Most importantly, the Rebellion practices what it preaches: it is engaged in democratic practices within its body.
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I don't think there's a sociological, ethics or political question regarding Star Wars that hasn't been hacked to death by nerds (this one included). What I would say is that the Rebel Alliance are not terrorists by really any definition of the word.
They are actively engaged in a face-to-face war with the Empire, which they are using military methods to try to overthrow.
Terrorists do not do that. They bomb civilians and civilian places to try to force political, societal and religious change through utter fear (thus the term terrorism).
The Rebellion does not attack civilians, nor does it attack anybody to try to drum up fear as a means of forcing its will or change upon a populace. It is a military attacking military targets. And the goal of those attacks is clearly regime change from one that is actively oppressing and killing those under its rule, to one whose goal is to free those people from a totalitarian regime. Most importantly, the Rebellion practices what it preaches: it is engaged in democratic practices within its body.
This is of course, a very silly conversation.
That being said, democratic you say? Show me your evidence! They certainly aren't egalitarian, despite their propaganda. Case in point, at the end of A New Hope, Chewie is not given a medal despite his (misguided) bravery because he is not human.
We can clearly see from the rest of the films that this is patently not true. Stormtroopers are some of the worst shots in the galaxy.
With their DNA based off of Jango Fett, you would think they would be better shots.
Chewie is not given a medal despite his (misguided) bravery because he is not human.
There simply wasn't a step stool tall enough for the princess to step up on to place the medal around his neck.
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With their DNA based off of Jango Fett, you would think they would be better shots.
We can clearly see from the rest of the films that this is patently not true. Stormtroopers are some of the worst shots in the galaxy.
Clearly, the Kaminoans lost rights to replicate the Fett DNA when Jango died. So they had to make do with copies of the copies, which introduced errors. Fortunately, they were able to splice in some replacement sequences (supplied affordably by JJ Binks Genomics, Ltd).