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We all know how easy it is for magic-users to control the battlefield; conjuring foul clouds of deadly vapor, producing walls of solid rock or fire or force to separate you from your allies, and twisting vines to entangle are just a few methods casters make life difficult on the battle field.
Obviously, a purely melee character will not have those options available to him. But is it possible, in their own way, for melee combatants to control the battlefield?
Yes.
Trip or bull rush are good ways.
Whirlwind attack with trip is another good way.
Groundbreaker as a barb will let you create difficult terrain.
Just kind of standing in the way of the enemies helps too.
It's not Core, but if I remember well the Kight class from 3.5 PHB2 was some sort of melee controller, challenging ennemy to fight him instead of his comrads and taking partial or full damage away from an adjacent ally that got hit.
If you can get some help making sure you get to fight in every combat with an Enlarge Person spell active on you (either through a cooperative party mage or through a potion), a fighter with Whirlwind Attack, Lunge, and Trip/Dirty Trick feats can do this pretty effectively. Add Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon, and it gets even more fun.
Does a fairly decent job of making people's lives a pain when they get anywhere near you.
Oh, another thought. If we're talking full-on Control-like abilities. Isn't there a feat in the APG that allows you to make a free Demoralize check against everyone in range when you knock someone out of combat?
on top of all the goodness of my previous post, this could be a nice cherry on top for a half-orc fighter. :)
The combat patrol feat from the APG added to combat manuevers previously mentioned, trip especially or stand still can work.
Or you can use the whip mastery feats from Ultimate combat (the whip itself being a great control weapon) to extend out your reach, forcing attacks of opportunity for those the come near you. You become a sort of mobile control spell.
Order of the Shield Cavalier with Standstill. Or Samurai if that's your game.
Invest in feats that let you be a crazy trip monkey with a side of dazzling display so you can demoralize people on the side.
Battlefield controllers have been a staple build of meleer's since Improved Trip was printed. Fighters are of course still #1 in this regard.
i had a player in my game play a dwarven stalwart defender who took combat patrol and would drag or reposition people on the battle field. it became very annoying after a while, maybe because you dont see melee doing that. i expect it from a wizard though.
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I have the sudden urge to make a paladin with Antagonize (to be used with Diplomacy, though, to keep people from hating me).There's a way to use antagonize and not have people hate you?
No one ever talks about it, but Antagonize has two different options: Intimidate, and Diplomacy. I've never seen anyone gripe or argue about the Diplomacy version. In fact, I didn't realize there was a Diplomacy version until I finally decided to read the feat to see what all the fuss was about.
- All of the combat maneuvers provide control: bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip.
- Attacks of Opportunity provide control by penalizing enemies for taking certain actions, and Combat Reflexes multiplies that option.
- Movement is useable as a control method: close with the ranged enemies, choose who to engage rather than letting the enemy choose.
- Entangling attacks like nets or alchemical items provide control.
- Reach extends the range of many of these.
I'm currently looking at a whip wielding Kensai Magus to fill just this role. The combination of spell combat, reach and tripping are ridiculous.
I'm currently looking at a whip wielding Kensai Magus to fill just this role. The combination of spell combat, reach and tripping are ridiculous.
You should take a look at Spire Defender instead of Kensi.
Look at Intimidate. The feats Enforcer, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, and Dreadful Carnage all work well with this skill to control the field. If you are good enough your enemies might even start running away from you with a nice DM.
Lunge, Combat Patrol, and Whirlwind are other good feats to consider to increase the range of your effectiveness (especially in crowded areas with Whirlwind).
Also, look into the Whip Mastery and Net Adept feat trees. It makes these weapons effective in combat, largely by adding combat maneuver options which help control the battle field.
If you are willing to take a dip into rogue for the sneak attack you can even combine that ability with the Critical feats and be a condition dealer using Sneaking Precision. Or you could manage the same thing with a high BAB and a keen kukri/rapier/scimitar/falchion/elven curved blade.
Barbarian also has a couple nice area affecting abilities that hinder movement, and I am sure there are a number of other options available to boot.
And that's all without magic.
Also, using alchemical items can do wonders.
I currently run a pole-arm trip fighter and I have tons of battlefield control. 5 Fighter levels then full Shadowdancer gives mobility, access to Enlarge Person through Rogue talents,Shadow Conjuration critters and even a pet who's natural attack lowers enemy CMD. The last encounter I prevented tons of damage from a Bear Calvary. I was trippin' bears. Toss in some items like Thunderstones in case of castys and you have a great control character.
No one ever talks about it, but Antagonize has two different options: Intimidate, and Diplomacy. I've never seen anyone gripe or argue about the Diplomacy version. In fact, I didn't realize there was a Diplomacy version until I finally decided to read the feat to see what all the fuss was about.I have the sudden urge to make a paladin with Antagonize (to be used with Diplomacy, though, to keep people from hating me).There's a way to use antagonize and not have people hate you?
Wait, there's a diplomacy version?!
Awesome advice thus far, guys and girls!
Thinking it over, I have to say that monks seem like they would make good controllers; combat patrol combined with all of that extra movement seems pretty sick. Of course, their only problem is actually hitting stuff...
Question: during an AoO, can you use a combat maneuver? Or are you restricted to just attacking to deal damage?
You can use some, but not all combat maneuvers when making an AOO. Just look at the descriptions for each of them. If they say you can make the maneuver in place of an attack, then yes, you can. Otherwise no.
A few of the big ones you can use in place of any attack are disarm, trip and sunder.
And there are a series of feats in UC that let you replace attacks with the other CMs.
It's not Core, but if I remember well the Kight class from 3.5 PHB2 was some sort of melee controller, challenging ennemy to fight him instead of his comrads and taking partial or full damage away from an adjacent ally that got hit.
This. I played a character who had 3 levels in Knight (enough to get the Knight ability that made all squares he threatened into difficult terrain). He ten took a few levels in some casting classes, and would use Enlarge person and eventually polymorph spells to go along with a polearm and armor spikes. He also took all combat reflexes and the Stand Still feat (not sure if this is still around in PF, but in 3.5 if movement provoked an AoO and you had this and hit with the AoO their movement action was done).
Of course he also had levels in Abjurant Champion, the Twilight enhancement on mithril armor, Wraithstrike (with 3.5 power attack...), and several other things that, in hindsight probably should never have existed. Soooo....yeah.
That said, if you can turn the area you're fighting in into difficult terrain or somehow prevent 5' steps, as long as you have the AoOs to back it up you can be a pretty darn effective melee controller. I'll have to look into this Barbarian groundshaker ability. Where's that at?
Shield users can do very well too. Remember there are two sides to battlefield control -- defending your allies and herding your enemies.
Several feats help shield users provide extra defense for allies, and many teamwork feats allow allies more mobility (escape route for example), shield slam is nice too since you get to do damage and move the enemy around. Combined with a net or whip with the new ultimate combat feats can really help you turn the battle on its head.
Oh, and moving your enemies around reminds me, there are now feats that allow the movement from maneuvers like Reposition and Bull Rush to provoke AOOs from your allies. Very good if you have at least one other melee buddy. Combine with Combat Reflexes and both of you will be capitalizing on the investment.
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This thread is making me think of an idea, based partially on a character I have in a PbP game.
1. Take at least two levels of Court Bard and get as high of a Perform:Oratory skill as you can (Versatile Performance lets it replace Diplomacy and Sense Motive).
2. Acquire the feats Antagonize and Snake Style.
3.a. Enter combat.
3.b. Initiate your "Satire" performance (via Perform:Oratory) to defame and ridicule the bad buy, making him feel bad so he takes a -1 to attacks/damage.
3.c. Use Antagonize (replacing Diplomacy with, again, Perform:Oratory) to further fluster the enemy so that he comes after you rather than taking penalties to attack someone else.
3.d. Use Snake Style (replacing Sense Motive with, again, Perform:Oratory) so that your snide remarks are actually keeping you from getting hit.
4. Bask in the fact that you've just created the biggest and most mechanically well-represented A**HOLE in the history of Pathfinder.
He also took all combat reflexes and the Stand Still feat (not sure if this is still around in PF, but in 3.5 if movement provoked an AoO and you had this and hit with the AoO their movement action was done).
Stand Still exists in pathfinder, but it's not very good, IMO. It only stops movement in adjacent squares, rather than those you threaten; for reach builds, it loses much of its awesome.
i had a player in my game play a dwarven stalwart defender who took combat patrol and would drag or reposition people on the battle field. it became very annoying after a while, maybe because you dont see melee doing that. i expect it from a wizard though.
How does that work? From what i understand of the prestige class, doesn't stalwart defender get most of its abilities when he doesn't move? Mobility based tactics seem kind of counter intuitive.
Improved trip, a pole arm, spiked armor,combat reflexes,a potion of enlarge person and accelerated drinker trait will make you a veritable wall of meat for your squishies to hide behind.
When people ask me if combat casting is a good choice, i ask "whats your party meatshield like?"
This thread is making me think of an idea, based partially on a character I have in a PbP game.
1. Take at least two levels of Court Bard and get as high of a Perform:Oratory skill as you can (Versatile Performance lets it replace Diplomacy and Sense Motive).
2. Acquire the feats Antagonize and Snake Style.
3.a. Enter combat.
3.b. Initiate your "Satire" performance (via Perform:Oratory) to defame and ridicule the bad buy, making him feel bad so he takes a -1 to attacks/damage.
3.c. Use Antagonize (replacing Diplomacy with, again, Perform:Oratory) to further fluster the enemy so that he comes after you rather than taking penalties to attack someone else.
3.d. Use Snake Style (replacing Sense Motive with, again, Perform:Oratory) so that your snide remarks are actually keeping you from getting hit.4. Bask in the fact that you've just created the biggest and most mechanically well-represented A**HOLE in the history of Pathfinder.
I LOVE this!!! XD
I'm going to start on a build for this right now! I'm thinking monk 3 bard 17 with the Monastic Legacy feat.
He will be the douche everybody loves to hate, exactly because he's good at what he does and he knows it.
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This thread is making me think of an idea, based partially on a character I have in a PbP game.
1. Take at least two levels of Court Bard and get as high of a Perform:Oratory skill as you can (Versatile Performance lets it replace Diplomacy and Sense Motive).
2. Acquire the feats Antagonize and Snake Style.
3.a. Enter combat.
3.b. Initiate your "Satire" performance (via Perform:Oratory) to defame and ridicule the bad buy, making him feel bad so he takes a -1 to attacks/damage.
3.c. Use Antagonize (replacing Diplomacy with, again, Perform:Oratory) to further fluster the enemy so that he comes after you rather than taking penalties to attack someone else.
3.d. Use Snake Style (replacing Sense Motive with, again, Perform:Oratory) so that your snide remarks are actually keeping you from getting hit.4. Bask in the fact that you've just created the biggest and most mechanically well-represented A**HOLE in the history of Pathfinder.
I LOVE this!!! XD
I'm going to start on a build for this right now! I'm thinking monk 3 bard 17 with the Monastic Legacy feat.
He will be the douche everybody loves to hate, exactly because he's good at what he does and he knows it.
Keep this in mind the next time someone tries to claim that picking mechanics before picking a concept stifles roleplay. ;)
So from what I'm gathering, Trip seems to be the most effective method of battlefield control for melee characters; as far as combat maneuvers go, I don't see any others that can match it. Bullrush can move enemies, but the damage is minimal, if any. Overrun would be decent if it weren't for the option of the enemy just letting you pass.
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Dirty Trick is very versatile and useful too. Grappling can also be really good, but is perhaps the hardest combat maneuver for a PC to really use well. Trip is the default simply because it's been around the longest, and has a guaranteed means of giving AoOs (when they get up) however it also has some of the biggest gaps in coverage (flying creatures, creatures without legs, creatures with lots of legs).
I would suggest that Dirty Trick is perhaps the 'best' combat maneuver, with grappling and trip being second bull rush being right behind that grappling and sunder in the fourth place and everything else after that with disarm ending dead last.
I would say that Trip, Disarm, and Sunder are probably the three best, seeing as they put your opponents at severe disadvantages.
Bull Rush can be decent in the right situation seeing as it does do some damage, and you might be able to push your opponents into a pit or off a cliff. Same with reposition, but no damage dealt. Overrun can be specialized in with feats to prevent the whole thing where your target can just move out of the way, but that takes a lot of feats to manage IMO, so unless you were already going to have a mounted attack as your primary method of assault, not really worth it.
If you are good at it, grappling can be very effective, especially if you have unlimited amounts of rope or manacles to tie up you opponents after pinning them. 3 rounds with a high BAB, good strength, and the bonuses from feats and you can have almost any opponent tied up, helpless for a coup-de-gras.
The best option I see for a controlling character actually is one that uses whips with the Whip Mastery feats. With this build you can threaten all squares within 15 ft and effectively gain the feats Imp. Disarm, Imp. Trip, and Imp. Grapple (including the ability to grapple creatures larger than yourself), minus the +2 bonus to these maneuvers, and you can tie them up with your whips too. Damage output is low, but the ability to control the battlefield is high.
I'm not sure how Sunder would work with this build, but why break it when you can take it away and throw it out of reach with the whip. Or even better, leave it there so you get an AOO whenever he tries to pick it up again. :)
Dirty Trick is very versatile and useful too. Grappling can also be really good, but is perhaps the hardest combat maneuver for a PC to really use well. Trip is the default simply because it's been around the longest, and has a guaranteed means of giving AoOs (when they get up) however it also has some of the biggest gaps in coverage (flying creatures, creatures without legs, creatures with lots of legs).
I would suggest that Dirty Trick is perhaps the 'best' combat maneuver, with grappling and trip being second bull rush being right behind that grappling and sunder in the fourth place and everything else after that with disarm ending dead last.
I'll have to look at Dirty Trick again, but I wasn't too impressed with it when I first looked at it; spending a standard action to give one person a penalty that can be removed with a move action seems like wasted effort to me. I'm sure it *may* have useful applications, but I can't really see it. It's a versatile maneuver, but too easy to negate in my opinion.
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I consider it this way, it blinds, sickens, or leaves them shaken for at least a round (possibly more) unless they spend a move action (later a standard action). So either you eat their action, or they are taking some significant penalties for the round.
Trip is very similar (in that it only takes a move action to fix) the main difference is that dirty trick works on almost all monsters while trip doesn't work on anything with a fly speed (or several legs, or no legs -- etc) and trip is going to grant an AoO while Dirty Trick gives more of a penalty (with no bonuses against ranged attacks either which can be a pain for party members that are archers).
Lets consider Blindness -- 50% miss chance for all your allies, slower movement, possibly denied their dex, and a bonus to hit for your allies. Sicken is simply penalties to hit, saves, skill rolls and damage rolls (shaken hits the same rolls except damage). IF they take a move action to clear the status then they aren't full attacking someone. If they move they aren't attacking and if they attack they aren't moving.
Any way about it you get a win in the control side of things.
I could see saying it's a toss up between trip and dirty trick but disarm belongs on the bottom of the pile as far as I'm concerned (especially with all the ways to avoid it and the fact that it simply doesn't affect many monsters either).
Disarm is effective if you encounter a lot of humanoid opponents. I'm playing a combat oracle in a CoT game and it's been useful, since we encounter a lot of things with weapons in hands. But I wouldn't design the character the same if I were playing Kingmaker.
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While it is true that disarm will not work against natural attacks, that is what Sunder and Grapple are for (if you break their hand or tie it behind their back, it's not really a weapon anymore, is it?).
But against those creatures which use weapons, most of them are not as effective without them, and if they move to pick it up that's a free attack (trip or grapple anyone?).
As for Dirty Trick, it is indeed versatile. Having your choice of blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened is attractive, but it only lasts one round, can be removed with a move action, and takes a standard action of your own.
With Greater Dirty Trick the durration is extended to 1d4 rounds +1/5 by which your CMB roll beats their CMB, but can still be removed with a standard action. Furthermore, unless you take the Quick Dirty Trick feat you essentially loose your attacks for that round since you have to take a standard action to use this maneuver. And both these feats have Improved Dirty Trick as a prerequisite.
That said, if you don't mind the 3 feat investment, this is actually relatively powerful. Blinding an opponent for even one round gives you massive bonuses against him. Even if he takes the standard action to remove the condition (which any character would unless they has some other way of overcoming this), that limits him to just a move action and kills his action economy, after which you can repeat the process.
So, if you really want to control the field, I would invest 6 feats, 3 into Whip Mastery (for the virtual Imp. Disarm/Trip/Grapple) and 3 into Dirty Trick, and also go with the TWF tree and TW Warrior and get a ton of attacks every round you can use to perform these combat maneuvers.
Of course another way to do this would be to take Critical Focus, a couple of the Critical feats, and a good crit range weapon or Sneaking precision (if you have sneak attack). You will need to get your sneak attack in at least twice in a round for the latter though, but there are several ways to do this from flanking, to the Feint tree, and even the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses feat combination.
The good crit range weapon is easier to get, though, and will let you deal more damage, but rules out the Whip Mastery options. Still you could always take the Imp. Trip/Disarm/Sunder feats.
In this case I'd select Sunder over either of the others, as that chain relies on Power Attack which will allow you to deal more damage, is not negated by movement type or weapon selection, and will allow you to make even more effective use of the Critical feats for applying conditions.
Valid points, Master_Crafter. I may have to rethink my stance on Dirthy Tricks. BUT, I still say that it is a rather heavy feat investment for it to become actually useful.
Making any combat maneuver (really the only melee option for controling short of the Critical feats or special items) is going to be feat intensive if you want to be good at it.
That said, if you want to be a melee controller, that's what you're gonna need. But once you get there it can be worth it. You just have to have a tactical mind to make the most of it.
Otherwise, it will "kind of suck," as A Man In Black so eloquently put it.
The impressive thing about this build was that with the conditions he was able to apply his DPR actually increased every round he targeted an opponent. It started at 60, but was over 120 by the third round, if I recall.
Of course that was all based on the statistics of fighting at 20th lvl. I still haven't been able to play the character to those levels.
i see everyone covering feats pretty well so i will throw in an angle out there that hasn't been mentioned but it's not strictly the melee way but you would be a melee class and super versatile.
bard 1/paladin X. both need CHR. bard will give you some first level control spells but more importantly give you bardic performance, access to the bard spell list (i would take grease), and UMD. Once you take paladin you will now have access to bard+paladin spell lists so you can use wands containing any of the spells on those lists without making a check. Max up your UMD along the way and you could easily use a wand of ANY spell with 100% success by level 10. Then get some cheap wands that cast the control your going for. And this is all secondary to what everyone else said so you could go the feat route and spell/wand route to work in tandem and have versatility.
also get some nets, caltrops and tangle foot bags- and a handy haversack at some point to keep it all in.
Maneuvers don't "suck" unless you expect to succeed in them without investment. But a dedicated tripper or any other type of maneuver that deprives your foe of the ability to fight at his best or to fight at all, can turn fights into a non-issue. And Fighters do have the feats to spend.
It also requires GM work, and fore knowledge of encounters. A player focusing on Sunder and Disarm Fighter might feel pretty useless if the Campaign is a kind of Safari/Monster Hunt since he doesn't have many opportunities to fight armed/armored humanoids.
Likewise a grapple and trip Monk might feel neutered when confronting ghosts in the Haunted house where the adventure takes place.
These are things that players don't really take into consideration sometimes when building maneuver characters. The appropriateness of those maneuvers for the overall adventure. Talking to the GM and figuring out what the most likely creature composition will be can help a player plan acordingly.
I'm running into an issue where a player of mine is focused on sundering, but hasn't been able to use it much yet in Carrion Hill or From Shore To Sea.
This is due to the increased prevalence of monsters as opposed to humanoids right?
One solution: change the encounters to have equivalent CR humanoids present, equipped with plenty of things for him to break.
Another solution: Add puzzles (where reasonable) that can be solved by breaking things, and in fact are time sensitive enough that breaking things is the most efficient way of doing so.
A Third solution: Allow him to retrain those feats.
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Fourth solution: Allow him to use sunder to damage the creature's natural weapons. The damage is dealt to the creature normally but prevents him from using that natural weapon. Additional damage may not be dealt to the creature by using feats such as Greater Sunder (which would only have transferred excess damage to the creature in any case). Only a character with Greater Sunder may attempt this.
This does not necessarily cut the affected natural weapon or limb off, just damages it enough to be ineffective as a weapon (treat as a broken weapon, saved from complete destruction by the reflexes of the creature). If all natural weapons are destroyed in this manner treat attacks as unarmed strikes dealing nonlethal damage as a creature one size smaller than normal for that creature as the it flails ineffectively with it's limbs. As an optional rule, if all limbs used for walking are sundered in this manner, reduce the creature's speed by 10 ft and it can not run or charge.
This way the investment is not lost and the maneuver becomes slightly more useful.
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Fourth solution: Allow him to use sunder to damage the creature's natural weapons.
This does not necessarily cut the affected natural weapon or limb off, just damages it enough to be ineffective as a weapon (treat as a broken weapon, saved from complete destruction by the reflexes of the creature).
This is a very cool idea, and easier to deal with, IMO, than most 'called shots' systems.
Master Crafter's solution is probably better and easier to implement than mine.