All, is it worth it being a small-sized Fighter, such as a gnome or a halfling? Or rather, can they be effective? What are the best ways (feats, level dips, gear) to get around their disadvantages (lower weapon damage, lesser movement)?
Thanks for any advice!
They certainly can be effective. The have a disadvantage in damage, and in their CMD/CMB, but that doesnt mean they are ineffective.
For instance the halfling opportunist prestige class from the sourcebook Halflings of Golarion is a very fun way to turn being small into an advantage (for halflings at least).
What kind of fighter are you looking to be? Ranged, melee, a switch hitter? Any particular style that appeals to you? They can all work just about as well. In the end the -2 or -3 damage doesnt mean the end of the world, and with some effort they can actually be quite good as martial characters.
Well, definitely go two-handed, and go to town with Power Attack. Chances are you'll be starting with 15 Str maximum, so that's a solid +3 per hit right there, plus two-handed small weapons typically do damage similar to regular one-handed weapons anyway. The +1 to hit from being small counteracts the -2 Str as far as to-hit goes, so you won't be doing too badly.
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Either one (halfling or gnome) can be effective, but they aren't going to be as optimized as a medium sized race that can bump STR. If you know that you will have the opportunity to use weapons with the AGILE weapon enhancement (allowing DEX for both attack and damage, instead of STR), you can build a pretty effective DEX-based fighter and not have to worry about putting a ton of points into STR -- and not getting much out of those points.
DEX-based TWF is extremely feat intensive, but can be done fairly well with a fighter, since they get so many feats.
If you want to go with a 2 handed weapon -- and still go DEX-based, the Elven Curveblade can help get you there (allowing you to Power Attack with a 2-handed, finesse-able blade).
If you are going to stick to light armor (DEX-based builds make this practical), you can take the Fleet feat to add 5' of movement to your speed - or 10' if you take it twice. Boots of Striding and Springing can also be used to add 10' to your speed, but I find Boots of Speed a much more useful option for your feat (albeit at more than twice the investment).
You can make a STR-based halfling or gnome fighter build work, too: you just have to realize that you are going to have some shortcomings (damage, speed), compared to your medium-sized counterparts. With weapon training, greater weapon focus and weapon specialization, that small fighter can still be pretty effective in combat.
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A small Dervish Dancer (with the Sarenrae trait that gives you fire damage on a critical) can use Dexterity for damage instead of Strength. That can take the damage sting out. You're then left with bonuses to hit and AC for being small, and focusing on Dex-based attacks (Ranged, Weapon Finesse) works well for Small characters.
Depends what you mean by worth it. It is pretty hard to say that the benefits outweigh the combination of penalties to move speed and weapon size. Then again it is pretty hard to say that the difference either way is likely to change your character from viable to not viable if otherwise built well. Go with what seems more interesting flavor.
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It would depend on what approach you take to your character. Flavor wise, gnome and halfling combat characters provide endless roleplay opportunities, and can be great fun. They are effective, but not AS effective due to the pervasive -2 STR penalty.
Mechanically, they are a sub-optimal choices; their slower speeds make for less effective mobile fighters, and the -2 STR penalty is hard to compensate compared to the size medium races.
I run a gnome barbarian, who is amazingly fun to play, despite his less than optimal abilities. Again, it all depends on what your approach to your character is.
Thanks for the replies. I kinda want to make a sword and shield type halfling fighter. I dont want any mounted combat, nor do I want to do dervishy type stuff or dex replacement stuff. My concept is more of a militia or town guard type. I like the idea of shields and medium armor.
So I would have -2 str, but also my weapon would be a die smaller? So on average I would be doing 2 points less?
I think it would be neat to take stuff that makes me good at tanking and shield bash stuff. Are any class dips for increased movement worth it? Any class dips or feats that give movement or AC buffs would be awesome.
Thanks for all the replies, and any future responses as well!
Depends what you mean by worth it. It is pretty hard to say that the benefits outweigh the combination of penalties to move speed and weapon size. Then again it is pretty hard to say that the difference either way is likely to change your character from viable to not viable if otherwise built well. Go with what seems more interesting flavor.
Well said.
Thanks for the replies. I kinda want to make a sword and shield type halfling fighter. I dont want any mounted combat, nor do I want to do dervishy type stuff or dex replacement stuff. My concept is more of a militia or town guard type. I like the idea of shields and medium armor.
So I would have -2 str, but also my weapon would be a die smaller? So on average I would be doing 2 points less?
Actually on average you will be doing 3 ponts less then 'optimal' because most (human, half orc, or half elf) fighters will put the +2 into strength so with a -2 your strength is 4 points behind, but again though not optimal that doesnt mean ineffective.
I think it would be neat to take stuff that makes me good at tanking and shield bash stuff. Are any class dips for increased movement worth it? Any class dips or feats that give movement or AC buffs would be awesome.
Thanks for all the replies, and any future responses as well!
As a small creature things you will face will normally be bigger then you (medium or larger). Underfoot is an alternate racial trait for halfling from the APG, which will give you a +1 dodge bonus to ac (and since dodge bonuses stack you could also take dodge). Given you will almost certainly have a good dex as a halfling, you will make good use of a fighters armor training (increasing the max dex on heavier armors). And a halfling sized shield still gives +2 to AC, added to the size bonus, you have a serious leg up on defense compared to fighters of the big folk variety.
Just dont forget to take things like power attack and weapon focus/spec to keep your offense reasonably high. You can also take the low blow ratial trait from the apg and use a high crit weapon (like a rapier or scimitar) to take advantage of the bonus. OR you can burn a feat (plentiful for fighters) and get exotic weapon profficiency katana (from ultimate combat) and have a high crit weapon who's damage die is the same as a medium sized fighter's weapon die.
Barbarian is a nice dip for small meleers.
Fast movement and rage mitigate most of a shorty’s drawbacks and all you need is a one level dip.
Though uncanny dodge is nice and there are some sweet rage powers
I dont have my book in front of me ... Does the barbarian speed bonus work if I am in medium armor? Heavy?
Thanks!
Barbarian is a nice dip for small meleers.
Fast movement and rage mitigate most of a shorty’s drawbacks and all you need is a one level dip.
Though uncanny dodge is nice and there are some sweet rage powers
I dont think its a good dip for small fighters actually. The one real advantage small (particularly halfing) fighter has is high AC. They have the size bonus, underfoot, and they will have a higher then avergate dex getting the most out of armor training. Barbarian mitigates that by limiting you to medium armor if you want that fast movement, and rage drops your AC even further. Small barbarians work fine, but I dont think it is a good dip for a small fighter.
I was thinking of limiting myself to medium armor anyway. I just dont like heavy armor on any fighter, from a style perspective.
Do any other classes or feats give movement increases?
A dip in cleric for the Travel domain will give you 10' more speed, and you'll also be able to use divine wands. You can also prestige into Holy Vindicator (full BA, partial casting) later, which I have seen folks have fun with.
Thanks for the replies. I kinda want to make a sword and shield type halfling fighter. I dont want any mounted combat, nor do I want to do dervishy type stuff or dex replacement stuff. My concept is more of a militia or town guard type. I like the idea of shields and medium armor.
You could go cavalier still. Don't focus on the mounted combat, but rather the teamwork feats. For example, if you have another melee person in the group, Outflank is pretty cool, especially if you wield a weapon like a rapier, whenever you score a critical hit, your ally gets an attack of opportunity.
Also, Order of the Shield sounds exactly like someone who would join/assist the town militia.
I dont personally enjoy teamwork feats, or rapiers, or for that matter cavaliets, just conceptually / thematically.
I like the idea of the cleric, just have to see if I can stand the ethos of any of the gods with the travel domain.
Thanks to both of ya!
How do you feel about 3rd party material? If you dont like the travel domain, you could take a level in the super genius games Templar. The temple order of Liberation allows you to gain 'burst of speed' adding 30ft to your movement as a free action (plus some skill bonuses) for a number of rounds = wisdom + 1/2 level.
Or with the same class you can take the Travel Temple order (which gives you mobility as a bonus feat, and the ability to fly equal to your speed for a round a number of times = 1+ wisdom mod. And if you take the feat (also in this product) Master of domains, you would also get the 1st level travel domain powers, that would make for a very mobile character if that is what you are looking for.
Edit: Also of note the templar is a full bab class so you wont lose out on bab (rather important for a fighter) where as a dip into cleric would slow your progression there.
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I've got a player with a straight-up, Core rules, Fighter 8, no dipping, no 3PP and no Archetype. He's DEX-based with impressive HP and uses a Medium-sized Keen Rapier he won in battle against a harpy cleric (in-game, not backstory.) He doesn't do the most damage in the party, but he's tough as nails and able to outlast his enemies.
Not sure what you define as "worth it" or "effective," but I figure he's a good enough example of a no-frills character who is both useful to the party and fun to have at the table.
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Inner Sea Magic version of bard[dawnflower dervish] grants Dervish Dance at 1st level. Barbarian[urban] is almost a shoo-in for TWFs.
Classes which grant various bonuses, or casters, are ideal for small races as they are not dependent upon size.
Do any other classes or feats give movement increasesThere's a gnome alternative trait which grants +5 move. Aside from that, the usual monk and barbarian stuff, Travel domain, rogue and ninja talents, and wands of Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat.
I've got a player with a straight-up, Core rules, Fighter 8, no dipping, no 3PP and no Archetype. He's DEX-based with impressive HP and uses a Medium-sized Keen Rapier he won in battle against a harpy cleric (in-game, not backstory.) He doesn't do the most damage in the party, but he's tough as nails and able to outlast his enemies.
DPR monkeys ubiquitously overlook the importance of this. I.e., is it better to take 25pts of damage in a five-round combat or take 60pts of damage killing the BBEM in two? That healing has to come from somewhere.
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Well, definitely go two-handed, and go to town with Power Attack. Chances are you'll be starting with 15 Str maximum,
Character-generation wasn't discussed, but a small character starting with a 15 STR has a "cost" of 13 when using point-buy -- so it is grossly suboptimal.
Playing any race "against type" (i.e., raising the dump stat, STR, while ignoring the bonus stats, DEX & CHA) simply results in a gimp.
E.g., 2-pt comparisons....
halfling "gimp" fighter: STR-15, DEX+16, CON:14, INT:12, WIS:14, CHA+09
-or-
halfling DEX-based monk: STR-10, DEX+18, CON:12, INT:12, WIS:15, CHA+10
halfling DEX-based rogue: STR-08, DEX+17, CON:12, INT:14, WIS:12, CHA+14
halfling archer cleric: STR:10, DEX+16, CON:12, INT:12, WIS:15, CHA+14
The monk Flurries with kukris for the same attack bonus as the fighter at 1st level, and his monk bonus to AC exceeds that granted by a chainshirt as early as 4th level with a Headband. Both the rogue and monk have twice the skill points, and have Escape Artist and Acrobatics on their class lists (important long-term when most opponents have reach and try to eat you). Both have built-in abilities allowing them to move fast (UMD for rogue, innate for monk at 3rd). The cleric is a Crusader of Erastil, and eventually owns an Oathbow.
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A halfling could make a great sword-and-board fighter. Their DEX bonus and size bonus to AC plus a shield bonus mean they'd have an AC to make their GM cry. If you're willing to use a light weapon in the other hand, Weapon Finesse means your attack rolls don't suffer from your STR penalty, but then you're doing 1D4+3 damage if you're lucky.
I'd say a better way to go would be to forget about shield bashing and TWF and just focus on Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec. With enough such feats a fighter can add a surprising amount to his attack and damage rolls, do the smaller damage die won't be as important. A kukri or rapier opens up the Critical feats, which could also let you deal some sweet damage. And then there's Dodge/Toughness, which further compliments your theme of "a tiny fighter that you just can't swat".
Also, get a ranged weapon. You have a bonus to DEX, use it! A longbow will do decent damage even from a small character, doesn't care about you not having 18 STR, and helps make up for your slower movement speed.
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I'd say a better way to go would be to forget about shield bashing and TWF and just focus on Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec.If you're a halfling and didn't dump your CHA and are within a spot of NG alighnment and are going to ditch TWF, take a level of Dawnflower Dervish (InnerSeaGuide).
Also, get a ranged weapon. You have a bonus to DEX, use it! A longbow will do decent damage even from a small character, doesn't care about you not having 18 STR, and helps make up for your slower movement speed.
Oathbows rock.
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The real way to play a S&B cleric:
* buckler and locking-gauntlet morningstar on one limb
* other hand free for touch-attacks, item use, or "main hand" weapon.
* Spring Attack fighting style.
-- You will cake-walk most combats because the party doesn't have to deal with the dumb cleric always getting his head caved in by the BBEM getting five attacks on him.
* Really difficult to disarm you, and you can't be stunned into dropping stuff.
* Buckler AC bonus is "there" in surprise rounds when the monsters go first versus your flat-foot AC (hey, welcome to being a cleric).
* Buckler AC bonus is "there" any time you're not swinging the morningstar
* Buckler AC bonus is forfeit only in those occasions you need to breach DR by using your P or B adamantine morningstar. -1 to hit with your least-used weapon = who cares? Eventually you'll have a lot of bonuses on that buckler.
Small fighters can be great. Speed does stink, although a level of monk or barbarian can help here. Or Cleric for the travel domain. If you are talking about the grand scheme of things not having an 18 or 20 str is not the end of the world. For nearly 3 decades people rolled 3d6 and arranged their stats. It made for lots of fighters with a high stat of 15 ;)
It really does come down to flavor. You can always take advantage of feats that let you up weapon size like monkey grip or a feat that lets you wield a bastard sword or falcion one handed.
Never underestimate the level of rogue, the feat low blow and improved low blow they were in an old Dragon mag I think. Low blow let you step inside the same square of a Medium sized creature catching them flat footed. Improved low blow removes the attack of opportunity but imagine your gnome going toe to toe with the orc Barbarian and every round steps in and sneak attacks every round.
Cool. I have a lot of options to think about. I definitely don't want to do two-weapon fighting or dervish stuff for concept. I also don't particularly like the rapier in terms of style, but the Kukri might be neat-looking. I sorta like the idea of a one-handed axe though. Maybe because I've been playing Skyrim. I do like the idea of the cleric dip for the movement. Do I just need one level? I'm home now, so I need to look at the travel domain.
Anyway, my character generation is beyond generous. Our GM lets us roll 4d6, drop the lowest, arrange to taste. Then, we can generate as many columns as we want. I can roll one set of stats, or 70 sets of stats, as long as I roll it there at the table. Then once I have a set of stats I like, I can roll a d4 and shift any amount of points from one stat to another in a 1:1 relationship. Then apply racial stuff.
So, stats-wise, its not a big deal. Our characters have monster stats if we want them, tho plenty of times I've taken my first roll. In fact I've never seen anybody go beyond 5 rolls other than me. I did over 30 when I was making a half-orc Warmage for a previous campaign, because it was 3.5 D&D at the time, and overcoming the -2 to int and cha was rough (I needed Cha also because I had a lot of Cha-based skills I took).
Anyway, it will be a couple of months before we start a new campaign, so I am under no rush. I am either going to do a sword-and-board (or axe and board, or would that be Nord and board?) halfling, or else a Druid of some kind. Probably the halfling fighter.
Thanks to everyone for the responses! I appreciate them.
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Cool. I have a lot of options to think about. I definitely don't want to do two-weapon fighting or dervish stuff for concept. I also don't particularly like the rapier in terms of style, but the Kukri might be neat-looking.Rapiers, scimitars and kukris are all 18-20/x2 weapons. Scimitar w/DD is the best single weapon attack (ideal for spring-attack, or TWF/IUS strategies); lowly unsung daggers are the best with TWF + Quick Draw (because you can also throw them).
Anyway, my character generation is beyond generous. Our GM lets us roll 4d6, drop the lowest, arrange to taste. Then, we can generate as many columns as we want. I can roll one set of stats, or 70 sets of stats, as long as I roll it there at the table. Then once I have a set of stats I like, I can roll a d4 and shift any amount of points from one stat to another in a 1:1 relationship. Then apply racial stuff.
I hate those kinds of games.
"I'm going to roll forever until I get at least three 18s!"
The GM could save an hour of everyone's just by granting 80pt-buy. :P
Ahem. Halfling Barbarian. You can offset the loss in damage with belts of giant strength and enchated weapons, speed in medium armor is at 25, and the natural increase to stealth means the first round of combat is usually "Surprise! Halfling!"
Not to mention they're just fun to play.
Stat-wise my current one has a +2 Greataxe and a +2 BoGS and with rage and power attack I'm swinging at +15/+10 1d10+16. It's not optimal, but figuring in my high saves (+1 across the board, and an extra +2 vs. fear), relatively high AC (for a barbarian), mad skills (4 + int, and +2 on acrobatics, climb, and perception, and +4 on stealth), and high hp (d12 is nothing to sneeze at) I'm happy with the -5% or so to hit and -6 damage a round. The only thing that has hurt me is the low CMD/CMD.
Ok, well I could do (travel) cleric 8, barb 12, for the dimension door and increased movement. :) thus letting me dimension door away. :)
Actually, what about barbarian 1, cleric with travel domain 1, and thst mobile fighter template? By level 2 I could have a base move of 40 and at level 17 (1 + 1 + level 15 of mobile fighter, I could have 50 ft movement).
Wasnt there some type of spellcaster that could dimension door at level 1? I could do that and 19 levels of barbarian. :)
Anyway, barbarians are cool, but I did picture him as more of a calm tactical fighter.
Hmm. Thanks!
Three levels of Horizion walker can get you Wis +3 Dimension doors and you won't lose any BAB out of the deal. There is the endurance feat tax, but that is nice if you want to sleep in your armor anyway.
Ranger is also a really good idea for a small fighter type. Favored enemy can really help out in the whole damage department, and Instant enemy can really become your friend.
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It's fun to play a STR-based halfling barbarian right up until where a gibbering mouther eats you.
Not much different than the DEX-based halfling fighter, either -- except the barbarian is more likely to be able to do enough damage to slice his way free of the beast's belly: 1d4+6 damage for armor spikes with a (raging) STR of 22 -- plus power attack damage. Given the 5DR that the critter has and the fact that you need to do 5HP of damage to break out, that's a 75% chance that you bust out if you hit at 3rd level (1d4+8) or 100% at level 4 (1d4+10 -- again, assuming that you hit).
Chance to hit? +3BAB+6STR+1MW+1Size = +11 s a target AC of 18 (at level 3).
You did remember to get MW spikes added to your MW armor when you bought it, didn't you?
;)
Ok, well I could do (travel) cleric 8, barb 12, for the dimension door and increased movement. :) thus letting me dimension door away. :)
Actually, what about barbarian 1, cleric with travel domain 1, and thst mobile fighter template? By level 2 I could have a base move of 40 and at level 17 (1 + 1 + level 15 of mobile fighter, I could have 50 ft movement).
Wasnt there some type of spellcaster that could dimension door at level 1? I could do that and 19 levels of barbarian. :)
Anyway, barbarians are cool, but I did picture him as more of a calm tactical fighter.
Hmm. Thanks!
Clerics aren't the only class to get domains, the inquisitor (from the Advanced Player's Guide) also gets one domain (which could be travel of course). Just saying that there are other ways to get the travel domain, not that cleric is bad.
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The DEX-based halfling is far more likely to avoid the blinding spit touch-attack.It's fun to play a STR-based halfling barbarian right up until where a gibbering mouther eats you.Not much different than the DEX-based halfling fighter,
except the barbarian is more likely to be able to do enough damage to slice his way free of the beast's belly: 1d4+6 damage for armor spikes with a (raging) STR of 22
The halfling with a Dervish Dance scimitar or other Agile high-crit-threat light weapon does more damage than the STR guy on a one-handed gauntlet attack.
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The halfling with a Dervish Dance scimitar or other Agile high-crit-threat light weapon does more damage than the STR guy on a one-handed gauntlet attack.
Since you created the Gibbering Mouther example, I'll bite. Please show us your third of 4th level halfling dervish dancer that is going to do more damage than my example barbarian, above, fighting from inside a gibbering mouther.
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Cestus punch with Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists (which you can afford at 4th in PFS with perfect prestige acquisition; I know, because I've done it). >:-) Dragon Style for extra rich, creamy goodness.
(Assuming, of course, that you're still conscious after the six bite attacks followed by 6d4 blood drain and -2 Con drain from the Engulf.)