Goblinworks Blog: A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step


Pathfinder Online

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Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We have not provided any details on exactly how we'll be managing the launch queue. All we've said is this:

"blog wrote:

A question some of you are likely asking is "how do I get to be one of the first 4,500 people in at launch?" We're going to have several ways to get into the queue to play Pathfinder Online, and many of them will be based on being an active and contributing member of the global Pathfinder community. Over the next several months, we'll be telling you how you can help us make the game successful and earn yourself a place near the front of the line. (And if you haven't already done so, please sign up for our newsletter using the form on the front page!)

We're also going to be actively reaching out to organized guilds and inviting them in as groups to pre-seed our sandbox with organizations that will help create the political, economic, military and territorial structure that Pathfinder Online will need to be successful. And of course, there will be ways for folks who want to get in without a lot of hassle to do so as well.

Goblin Squad Member

"Pre-seed" implies before launch.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm hanging my hat on this:

Quote:
We're going to have several ways to get into the queue to play Pathfinder Online, and many of them will be based on being an active and contributing member of the global Pathfinder community.

And I'm hoping that "recognize" means "try to get into the queue" in this context:

Quote:
We want to encourage folks to begin self-organizing even before the game is ready for testing. We'll do our best to recognize those organizations that get created early, especially if they announce their existence on our messageboards.

And on that note, I encourage everyone to take another look at our announcement: Chartered Company :: The Seventh Veil


I am new to this forum, so Hi! OR HELLO WORLD!! (shot me later for that).

I have a group of real life friends we play mmos and rp table top games for a while.(thank you for un mucking dnd btw).

I liked Daoc's PvP setup, I grew up with EQ then Daoc. And now WoW...(save me). We all like where your going, we understand there is a limitation on players being invited to play the game and thats cool too. The only thing not mentioned so far is concerning mobs/npcs is I do not wish for immune mobs. I enjoyed, and hated, the realism of attacking npcs that where not necessary the npc generated for assualt. Please do not place these restriction.

We are making our clip soon, for your request. Sounds like a lot of thought is being placed into this game design. Thanks again.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm definitely excited about this MMO. I like what they are trying to do, and I hope we can all help pull it off.

Goblin Squad Member

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You and me both, brother!

Also, it's nice seeing some of the old blog threads getting resurrected. It means people are actually taking the time to read up on the game :)


I personally think I'll give it a try looks like fun. Will we be able to make multiple characters because in both MMOs and Pathfinder I'm an altaholic. Never played a sandbox MMO but the concept had always interested me also.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Re-necro!

Goblin Squad Member

Dlast000 wrote:
I personally think I'll give it a try looks like fun. Will we be able to make multiple characters because in both MMOs and Pathfinder I'm an altaholic. Never played a sandbox MMO but the concept had always interested me also.

It's a good plan isn't it? Welcome to the forums. Feel free to post any questions. You might find the "Nihimonicon" useful for FAQ, Guilds, links useful etc.

Lots of experimentation during Early Enrollment but definitely find a guild to hit the game with for sandbox mmorpg (helps with just about everything).

Goblin Squad Member

Dlast000 wrote:
I personally think I'll give it a try looks like fun. Will we be able to make multiple characters because in both MMOs and Pathfinder I'm an altaholic. Never played a sandbox MMO but the concept had always interested me also.

You will be able to make multiple characters; if you want to train multiple characters, however, you'll have to split up training time for one subscription or purchase more subscriptions. There may or may not be free-to-play characters in some capacity, but that's still not set in stone.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm pretty sure you can log in a character that is not training, that way you can grind money to buy training time from other players.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
I'm pretty sure you can log in a character that is not training, that way you can grind money to buy training time from other players.

Yes, I am pretty sure of this as well. Ryan had said that he does not see the purpose in requiring multiple accounts, to have access to multiple characters.

You can have multiple characters on one account, and then spend the training time as you see fit, with one exception. You can not spend more training on one character than one months's worth from your accumulated pool.

Example:

I have a Main Character and a Destiny's Twin. Let us also say I have a third character. For the sake of argument, lets say 1 month sub = 500 points.

I can spend accumulated points:

Main = 500
DT = 500
Alt = 0

Main = 500
DT = 400
Alt = 100

Main = 0
DT = 500
ALT = 500

ETC..

What I can't do is spend:

Main = 600
DT = 300
Alt = 100

The main for that month is exceeding the 500.

This is what I understand it to be, but a Dev will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong.

CEO, Goblinworks

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It's likely that you'll identify a character as your "main" character's Destiny's twin and that character will gain the XP of their "main". They won't get a separate pool of XP. So if you don't train the main, the twin won't gain XP either.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
It's likely that you'll identify a character as your "main" character's Destiny's twin and that character will gain the XP of their "main". They won't get a separate pool of XP. So if you don't train the main, the twin won't gain XP either.

I'm confused by this...... So when I pay to train my main. I get xp to spend on him and in my DT.

They are not separate?
Can I spend 60% on my main and 40% on my DT?
Can I spend points on one, but save them for the other?
How will the system keep track of what pints were spent and on whom?

Goblin Squad Member

I can't imagine it would be that difficult to sketch out.

I have an account with my main, the twin that is associated with that main, and an alt character. I buy a month worth of training (500xp in your example). I spend 300xp on my main, and 200xp on my alt. Because the twin is associated with my main, it also gets 300xp for free. If I had spent the training the other way around (200xp on my main, 300xp on my alt), then my twin would have 200xp.

They are separate, but directly linked.

Goblin Squad Member

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If you train your main for a year could you let your DT gain all that xp and spend it all at once after a year or two? Useful if you want to wait for more classes before playing the DT.

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
If you train your main for a year could you let your DT gain all that xp and spend it all at once after a year or two? Useful if you want to wait for more classes before playing the DT.

I am considering an approach like that. Not so much to wait for future classes, but because so much will be in flux for awhile.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
It's likely that you'll identify a character as your "main" character's Destiny's twin and that character will gain the XP of their "main". They won't get a separate pool of XP. So if you don't train the main, the twin won't gain XP either.

I'm confused by this...... So when I pay to train my main. I get xp to spend on him and in my DT.

They are not separate?
Can I spend 60% on my main and 40% on my DT?
Can I spend points on one, but save them for the other?
How will the system keep track of what pints were spent and on whom?

I'm not seeing much room for confusion on this one specific point, as it seems consistent with what GW's told us before: if you pay your sub fee, your main and your Twin will each earn XP which will be recorded as belonging to that character; each will have the same amount of XP credited in the separate records of those two characters. What you then buy with those stored XP, and when, will be determined by your actions while playing that character.

If you have another character outside your main/Twin pair, that character's XP will be earned according to whether you pay another subscription fee for that character.

CEO, Goblinworks

Bluddwolf wrote:
I'm confused by this...... So when I pay to train my main. I get xp to spend on him and in my DT.

You get to define two characters as twins. A and B. You can't change this relationship once it's established. B gets exactly what A gets for XP exactly when A gets XP. No more, no less. In many ways B is a much less flexible character than an alt.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan, is selecting a DT a "day one" desicion, or can you play with a main for some time in EE, figure out how the game works and what I like, and then chose DT after having a better idea of what I want?

Goblin Squad Member

That's how I've always thought of it since January of 2013 when the Kickstarter said "As long as your primary character is earning skill points, so will its counterpart - FOREVER!." That's the thing that got me to jump into the pool.

CEO, Goblinworks

I doubt they'll be ready day one anyway, so we'll have to have some system to do them post creation of A.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I'm confused by this...... So when I pay to train my main. I get xp to spend on him and in my DT.
You get to define two characters as twins. A and B. You can't change this relationship once it's established. B gets exactly what A gets for XP exactly when A gets XP. No more, no less. In many ways B is a much less flexible character than an alt.

That last sentence makes me wonder: by "getting XP" do you mean gaining as of yet unassosiated XP that you can then spend on progressing a skill or if A spends 100XP In sword fighting 2 then B also progresses sword fighting 2 by 100XP?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

He means converting training time to XP, I believe.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm still not getting why each character does not have a pool of their own stored up xp to be spent.

If I only had one character then all purchased game time would be converted into experience points to remain in his pool until spent.

Having additional characters on the same account, does not change that.

Maybe the way it could work is when you buy play time and that time is converted to xp, it has to be allotted to the various characters on the account at that time.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Bluddwolf wrote:

I'm still not getting why each character does not have a pool of their own stored up xp to be spent.

If I only had one character then all purchased game time would be converted into experience points to remain in his pool until spent.

Having additional characters on the same account, does not change that.

Maybe the way it could work is when you buy play time and that time is converted to xp, it has to be allotted to the various characters on the account at that time.

Until a F2P method is established, which will probably not happen in EE, there will be no way to NOT have XP accrue.

So, the initial behavior will be that characters accrue XP every hour/day/week/tick while they are in a playable status.

Later, if/when a F2P option is available, characters will accrue XP every time period when they are in a training status. There will never be XP which is not assigned to a character, in any model.

'Purchased game time' doesn't become XP when it is acquired, it becomes XP when it is spent, and it can only be spent after it is allocated.

CEO, Goblinworks

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Bluddwolf wrote:
I'm still not getting why each character does not have a pool of their own stored up xp to be spent.

They do, except for A and B, the pool is filled identically and varies only with the choices you make about A's accrual. If you don't train A, B gets no XP either.

Quote:
Having additional characters on the same account, does not change that.

If you train Character C instead of A, B suffers too. If you wish, you could pay for XP for A and C, and B would get what A gets.

RyanD

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
I'm still not getting why each character does not have a pool of their own stored up xp to be spent.

They do, except for A and B, the pool is filled identically and varies only with the choices you make about A's accrual. If you don't train A, B gets no XP either.

Quote:
Having additional characters on the same account, does not change that.

If you train Character C instead of A, B suffers too. If you wish, you could pay for XP for A and C, and B would get what A gets.

RyanD

So, if I pay for a month, and let us use 500 xp as example:

I spend 400 on "A" = 400 on "B" automatically, which leaves 100 for "C". Anything I spend on C from the same pool of xp is taking away from both A & B.

If I want to fully train "C" without taking away from A or B, I pay for another separate subscription for C. this would equal:

500 xp spent for A&B + C.

I'm assuming we can also have "C" as an untrained or minimally trained alt as well?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I doubt they'll be ready day one anyway, so we'll have to have some system to do them post creation of A.

Since it will be known which accounts are eligible for Destiny's Twins, it would seem a simple matter to just give them the xp pool that is equal to what the Main character has already accrued.

CEO, Goblinworks

Bluddwolf wrote:
Since it will be known which accounts are eligible for Destiny's Twins, it would seem a simple matter to just give them the xp pool that is equal to what the Main character has already accrued.

Which character is the "main" character?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
Since it will be known which accounts are eligible for Destiny's Twins, it would seem a simple matter to just give them the xp pool that is equal to what the Main character has already accrued.
Which character is the "main" character?

The first one created, I guess, or this could be designated at the time of character creation.

Personally, I see no reason to differentiate between "Main" and "Destiny's Twin" if they are linked in the way you describe. They are basically both "Mains".

I'm wondering if there is a benefit for Goblin Works to know who a player's main character is, versus DTs or Alts?

This might open the door for some data analysis where your track the differences in play styles, choices and interactions based on comparing and contrasting Mains vs. DTs vs. Alts.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

It makes sense to me that when DTs are rolled out, that you would get to choose the character they're attached to (i.e. the Main) when creating the DT.

CEO, Goblinworks

Bluddwolf wrote:
The first one created, I guess, or this could be designated at the time of character creation.

But I don't know which character I want to irrevocably tie my Destiny's Twin to until I've played enough to be able to make good choices about where I want to allocate XP earning on a near continuous basis.

Many (most?) people will make a lot of characters and play them to various stages of development before settling on the one they want to make part of the Twinning process. To force them to Twin the first character they make would suck and just give us an endless stream of "please help me" emails which we could either refuse (leading to unhappy customers) or fix (which means we shouldn't have forced them to choose too early in the first place.)

The concept of "main" makes no sense in Pathfinder Online.

RyanD

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
The first one created, I guess, or this could be designated at the time of character creation.

But I don't know which character I want to irrevocably tie my Destiny's Twin to until I've played enough to be able to make good choices about where I want to allocate XP earning on a near continuous basis.

Many (most?) people will make a lot of characters and play them to various stages of development before settling on the one they want to make part of the Twinning process. To force them to Twin the first character they make would suck and just give us an endless stream of "please help me" emails which we could either refuse (leading to unhappy customers) or fix (which means we shouldn't have forced them to choose too early in the first place.)

The concept of "main" makes no sense in Pathfinder Online.

RyanD

Yeah, I suspect you will face some people who will b*%#%, whine and moan, no matter what you do... /ignore is your friend... ;-}

I on the other hand approach this issue of character development with a few things in mind:

1. I plan on playing PFO for at least 8 - 10 years. Which I know that might sound like wishful thinking, but I've done it in EvE and I expect I can do it in PFO.

2. Since I am thinking in terms of years and not the typical 6 - 8 months I usually do with a Theme Park MMO, I'm willing to accept a few skill paths to nowhere along the way.

3. I also don't expect to train anything truly specialized throughout EE, but instead focus on "core skills and feats" (whatever they may actually be).

4. I plan on storing up unspent XP, and wait for OE to focus on specializing into some kind of a role.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I doubt they'll be ready day one anyway, so we'll have to have some system to do them post creation of A.

If they are not ready on day one.... They will get the full xp from the main character correct?

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
The first one created, I guess, or this could be designated at the time of character creation.

But I don't know which character I want to irrevocably tie my Destiny's Twin to until I've played enough to be able to make good choices about where I want to allocate XP earning on a near continuous basis.

Many (most?) people will make a lot of characters and play them to various stages of development before settling on the one they want to make part of the Twinning process. To force them to Twin the first character they make would suck and just give us an endless stream of "please help me" emails which we could either refuse (leading to unhappy customers) or fix (which means we shouldn't have forced them to choose too early in the first place.)

The concept of "main" makes no sense in Pathfinder Online.

RyanD

I do remember posts that you said you can change which character is the destinys twin. I dont remember you saying if you could change the main though.

I think it makes perfect sense. No matter how many characters you make, if you are only paying for one then that single character can do all the things the large number of characters can do and then some.

You only have to train the core skills once. If you make a stack of characters, they all have to train the core skills.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan,

What if we want DT from Day 1?

The example given on the KS page are combat-oriented and industrial-oriented twins which spoke to me because that's exactly what I had in EVE (the prevalence of which I assume is why you used that example) and what I want to echo in PO.

I'm assuming that basic combat and basic ACE (Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert) skills are a part of the minimum viable product so I want my Twins to get started in their fields.

The two training problems I can see:

1.) GoblinWorks decides to wash a feat or whole tree of training or whatever that changes its utility or makes it incompatible with the game; shouldn't be a complete surprise in EE. The xp involved better be refunded to each character, we're only out the effort and coin of training it which is a known risk we signed up for.

2.) I train down a line and later decide I don't want to do things that need those skills. Why bother making a new character except for a name change?

Since Destiny's Twin was promoted so much I expected it to be an option from the start, even with a big flashing sign that says "BE CAREFUL this is permanent don't come b*%$^@)g to us later."

CEO, Goblinworks

Xeen wrote:
I do remember posts that you said you can change which character is the destinys twin.

Never.

CEO, Goblinworks

Xeen wrote:
If they are not ready on day one.... They will get the full xp from the main character correct?

There will have to be some transition mechanism. Like maybe when the feature goes live you can pick a character to be A for some time (months?) and get credit back to the birth of that character after which point that back-dating stops. We can't leave it open forever or we'll create a class of accounts that are insanely valuable and a pair of potential twins that don't really reflect the intention of the future.

CEO, Goblinworks

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Proxima Sin wrote:
What if we want DT from Day 1?

I feel your pain.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Xeen wrote:
If they are not ready on day one.... They will get the full xp from the main character correct?
There will have to be some transition mechanism. Like maybe when the feature goes live you can pick a character to be A for some time (months?) and get credit back to the birth of that character after which point that back-dating stops. We can't leave it open forever or we'll create a class of accounts that are insanely valuable and a pair of potential twins that don't really reflect the intention of the future.

Thats fine. If it takes 6 months for DT to be available, we get that 6 months of SP for the DT. Something along those lines anyway.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Xeen wrote:
If they are not ready on day one.... They will get the full xp from the main character correct?
There will have to be some transition mechanism. Like maybe when the feature goes live you can pick a character to be A for some time (months?) and get credit back to the birth of that character after which point that back-dating stops. We can't leave it open forever or we'll create a class of accounts that are insanely valuable and a pair of potential twins that don't really reflect the intention of the future.

Why would the accounts that have an undefined DT and a long-time character that might spawn an instant long-time twin more insanely valuable than the accounts with a defined DT, with a lot of XP, that hasn't spent any of it?

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Xeen wrote:
If they are not ready on day one.... They will get the full xp from the main character correct?
There will have to be some transition mechanism. Like maybe when the feature goes live you can pick a character to be A for some time (months?) and get credit back to the birth of that character after which point that back-dating stops. We can't leave it open forever or we'll create a class of accounts that are insanely valuable and a pair of potential twins that don't really reflect the intention of the future.
Why would the accounts that have an undefined DT and a long-time character that might spawn an instant long-time twin more insanely valuable than the accounts with a defined DT, with a lot of XP, that hasn't spent any of it?

I think Ryan is saying that the training time credited for DT will have a cap and at some point expire if not used.

CEO, Goblinworks

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Why would the accounts that have an undefined DT and a long-time character that might spawn an instant long-time twin more insanely valuable than the accounts with a defined DT, with a lot of XP, that hasn't spent any of it?

Let's say the game is 5 years old, and someone has a Day One account with Destiny's Twin and a Day One character that has earned XP the whole five years but the Twin was never declared. Let's assume there's no limit as to how far back the XP accrual goes for the Twin.

I could effectively create a 5 year old character ON DEMAND. The flexibility that implies is enormous. And the value some players would attach to that capability is also enormous. It would be a potential "I win" button in some finite but potential circumstances.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Let's say the game is 5 years old, and someone has a Day One account with Destiny's Twin and a Day One character that has earned XP the whole five years but the Twin was never declared. Let's assume there's no limit as to how far back the XP accrual goes for the Twin.

I could effectively create a 5 year old character ON DEMAND. The flexibility that implies is enormous. And the value some players would attach to that capability is also enormous. It would be a potential "I win" button in some finite but potential circumstances.

This is all the more reason to release the full listing of Core Class skill / feat trees ASAP!

I believe many players will be holding off on their DTs for just that reason. They may also hold off on skill training their main character for that same reason.

But in your scenario, there is no real downside for a player to crate an instant second 5 year old character. It is no different then if they created that DT and day one, and left him in a closet for 5 years.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The only difference I see would be that variables (e.g. race) set at character creation would be set.

I also don't see how it would be more valuable than a character who wasn't a DT that had a subscription paid for that period.

Goblin Squad Member

I would hope we can wait until the class archetypes that are not in the game at launch (like druid, ranger, monk, sorcerer) become available. It would be a total bummer if a few days after the window closes on my DT druids were released.

Goblin Squad Member

just as long as when twins are introduced for the say next 6 months, if i declare my twin it can get all the XP as if i was able to do that from day 1.

I dont see allowing it to continue for years and years, but it should be allowed from when its introduced to a set amount of time.

CEO, Goblinworks

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@leperkhaun - yes that's exactly what I said.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
I doubt they'll be ready day one anyway, so we'll have to have some system to do them post creation of A.

I hope DTs will be at least available on day 1 of OE if not slightly before.

Plus a lot of DTs will be crafters and I seem to remember reading that the crafting system will be a work in progress during EE. So a delay in the release of DTs might not be a bad thing.

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