I'd new to PF but have a lot of experience with versions 1 and 2 of D&D. I've always enjoyed playing clerics but I notice that is not an acceptable opinion with most players and GMs in PF. Mostly they think clerics are heal spell vendors with the personality of bits and bytes. I breathe life into all my characters. . . I need a Clerical Development Plan so, when the grousing about needing a rogue this or a melee that comes up, I can pass a Diplomacy check with the GM or the party.
I have some questions
First, is there a clerical version of Eldrich Knight? On an idle moment, I was thinking how nice it would be for a Saranae cleric to be a Fighter/Weapons Master. Gain pluses to hit and damage as you increase in level would be nice!
Second, should a cleric take a few levels of fighter to get some melee abilities or just stick with cleric? For instance, you could take a few levels of fighter and gain power attack. That same Saranae cleric could Power Attack with a mace as well as a skimmatar. . .
Third, how does mixing arcane and divine magic as a mystic thuerge work out? I seem to remember a certian version 1 elf mage cleric who got no respect as a cleric, just remembered as a mage . . .
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For the melee idea, you might be interested in the Crusader.
Welcome to Pathfinder!
The cleric is the cleric version of the Eldritch Knight. These babies are pretty good at melee as it is, and when they're buffed? They're amazing.
The Crusader archetype is right up your alley! The access to Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization is a crude approximation to getting bonuses to hit and damage :)
Prestige classes that might work for you:
Divine Scion. This guy is a bit more of a caster than a smacker.
This guy is more a smacker than a caster.
Personally, I would stick with Cleric on through. Your domains will get better, and you'll get more awesome spells :)
I have nothing to say about mystic theurge. It's one of those classes that you should really focus on from the start if you want to try it out. Although a Magus 6 / Cleric X / Mystic Theurge could be interesting, especially with the blackblade archetype. Your scimitar is fused with the Will of Saranae herself. It's a huge detour though.
Consider also the Oracle class, which is a sorcerer version of the cleric, gets very interesting bloodline/domain like abilities, has an automatic character fluff addition in having their curse, can be VERY potent in melee, and can cast the same spells clerics can, albeit from a more limited resource pool. They're also CHA based instead of wis .
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If you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.
If you are going with Saranae, look up the Heroism (Glory) Sub-domain. It gives you some powerful buff spells and at lv 8 you can as a swift action buff your allies and YOU, allowing you to still attack.
Remember that any aura/power/spell that stats your allies, can also affect you unless its not logical to do so.
ON ORACLES: IF you are playing a "spell-casting" focused character, I will advice against playing a Oracle. The reason is the 1 spell level behind from the Cleric can get VERY Glaring at certain levels. Examples are your party needs a lesser restoration spell urgently cos the fighter took a -10 to str, but oops... you can't cast it cos you are level 3, while the cleric can cast it at lv 3. OR not having the Breath of Life spell at level 9 cos you can't cast it yet, while a cleric has it covered.
BUT! If you are playing a Battle-Cleric like character, do look up some of the Oracle Mysteries, like Battle Mystery, which have many powers that can help a Battle-Cleric.
PS: Yes, MANY players have the mindset that Cleric are heal-bots and if they can't heal they are not really Clerics. This is a very MMORPG mind-set, fueled by how "healer" classes in games like WOW more often then not end up as heal-bots.
Count me in the "Clerics are NOT healbots" camp.
Clerics are godly powerful. Their modest stats, plus buffs, make them rival melee classes PLUS buffs, PLUS battlefield control, PLUS summoning, PLUS healing (after combat).
If someone needs healing during combat, it means someone already screwed up. Maybe the first few fights yeah, heal em up, but be sure to give em heck later as you demand tactical collaboration: Casties control the local universe first, then everyone get into position for maximum slaughter output with flanking and terrain-based placement.
I've heard of people who were classmates in a military academy, and played RPGs together. They had eerie efficiency, like a well-oiled machine, and were nigh unstoppable, even in the face of superior forces.
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I've heard of people who were classmates in a military academy, and played RPGs together. They had eerie efficiency, like a well-oiled machine, and were nigh unstoppable, even in the face of superior forces.
O_O
"You know what? I'll just stay back here and Inspire Courage while you two do your thing, alright? And, um, try not to splatter troll blood on me. Um, please, if that's okay, um, sirs..."
Clerics aren't about healing damage -- that's maybe a hobby.
They're about preventing damage. Direct protection, buffing the party defense in so many ways. Buffing offense to finish fights faster. Negotiating through a conflict to prevent anyone getting wounded at all. Sure, you fix up the stuff that gets past you, but mostly you concentrate on not letting it get there in the first place.
Clerics are also great roleplaying opportunities, in so many ways.
I've heard of people who were classmates in a military academy, and played RPGs together. They had eerie efficiency, like a well-oiled machine, and were nigh unstoppable, even in the face of superior forces.O_O
"You know what? I'll just stay back here and Inspire Courage while you two do your thing, alright? And, um, try not to splatter troll blood on me. Um, please, if that's okay, um, sirs..."
Yeah. One thing they did in the opening round was use the delay action to sync their initiatives in the order they needed to carry out, say "Formation 3B" from their playbook. The formation would for example have them hold actions for each other's actions in the playbook, and then when one guy's initiative came up, it would become this cascade of interrupted action after interrupted action, and the poor enemies would be slaughtered in an instant.
But I digress.
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Clerics are, in my mind, one of the best RP classes there are. I mean you're a religious zealot! Once you pick your deity, read up on said deity and rationalize how your character would apply this god's teachings to everyday life. Invent quotes from scripture and use them in combat. Try to make up dogmatic fables to teach (and convert) NPCs and fellow party members during downtime. Have your cleric cry out the deity's name in some creepy fanatical battlecry. Become a salesperson for your faith.
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Clerics are, in my mind, one of the best RP classes there are. I mean you're a religious zealot! Once you pick your deity, read up on said deity and rationalize how your character would apply this god's teachings to everyday life. Invent quotes from scripture and use them in combat. Try to make up dogmatic fables to teach (and convert) NPCs and fellow party members during downtime. Have your cleric cry out the deity's name in some creepy fanatical battlecry. Become a salesperson for your faith.
I find it fascinating that you (correctly) identify clerics as being great for RP, and then only manage to come up with one way of playing them (and even that is a tired cliche' that I hope never to have to sit through).
Sheesh, use some imagination, man!
To the OP:
Many here will want a bit more detail before they can help you build very much; core rule book only, anything in the prd, 3pp, etc...
However, as mentioned the cleric is kind of like the eldritch knight all by itself; medium armor, d8 hp, medium BaB, possibly a decent weapon (depending on god choice), etc...
If you want to be just a little more melee just adjust your abilities. If you want a lot more melee you can go the crusader archtype (if allowed) or even add a few fighter or paladin levels. Though the paladin and cleric don't work together as well as it seems like they should.
About the only things they don't do well are skill monkey and sneak. Even then with the right spells they actually aren't too bad at that.
{{{ Actually, I've always thought there should be a full divine caster class that the cleric is the hybrid in comparison. But that's just me... }}}
I find it fascinating that you (correctly) identify clerics as being great for RP, and then only manage to come up with one way of playing them (and even that is a tired cliche' that I hope never to have to sit through).Sheesh, use some imagination, man!
Whatcha talkin about? These vary hugely from god to god. Compare a cleric of the god of war, to a cleric of the god of fire, or a cleric of the god of life. Each would have a wildly different dogma, and thus a totally different approach.
For example, I played a cleric of Oghma, the god of knowledge. He was also a Dexter-like serial killer because he was the product of an experiment involving the god of murder, but that's another story. During his travels, he was teaching the barbarian to read, and trying to convince everyone that Oghma is the bestest god around. At cities he would convert people commission them to have shrines, schools and/or libraries built, in exchange for using his divine powers to help the population and sharing his teachings. In combat, he used "The Naming", representing Oghma's will in making concepts into reality by naming them ("And all-knowing Oghma decreed - this shall be known as 'suffering'!" [bestow curse]).
In a previous campaign, my friend played a cleric of Tempus, god of war. His big thing was relating all walks of life to war, the readiness of war, and so on. Like he'd deliver a farmer's baby, announcing "Let this child grow strong under the eye of Tempus, and let her not fear the sword, for she will toil the fields, to grow food for the soldier, the swordsmith, and the lords of battle." That kind of thing.
He was also very much obsessed with meeting the stern expectations of his loving parents, and promised to build a battle fortress in the Northern borderlands and name it after his father. His adventures were dedicated to amassing the wealth to do exactly that - and he did such a good job that it started up a militaristic frontier town, and then be the backbone of a notable battle in history. Tempus was pleased.
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I wasn't so much meaning the content of the deity's portfolio as the character itself; you listed nearly half a dozen aspects of the character ("religious zealot", "salesperson of the faith", "fanatical battlecry", "dogmatic fables", conversion), and they're all pretty much the same character. Sure, the words used will vary with the deity, but it's still just the same character with different catchphrases filling in the blanks. Heck, the character you just described might not even be appropriate for some deities.
What about the quiet, kindly sage who just wants people to get along? What about the fun-loving performer who you wouldn't even guess was a cleric until he channeled energy? What about the studious, disciplined clergyman who would gladly assist a temple of another faith if they needed it because he's so devoted to the divine not being neglected? What about the barely-a-cleric who doesn't care too much what people do and just joined up so he could carry out his vendetta against undead?
The list goes on, and any one of those could also be further varied by the individual deity, just like the one idea you suggested. See what I mean? :)
What about the quiet, kindly sage who just wants people to get along? What about the fun-loving performer who you wouldn't even guess was a cleric until he channeled energy? What about the studious, disciplined clergyman who would gladly assist a temple of another faith if they needed it because he's so devoted to the divine not being neglected? What about the barely-a-cleric who doesn't care too much what people do and just joined up so he could carry out his vendetta against undead?
Those sound like people who the gods wouldn't invest power into, because there's no ROI.
Anyone can worship, and I'll wager that most worshipers get nothing from the god as far as supernatural power is concerned.By what criteria does a god choose who should have the power and who shouldn't?
Looking at the spell list, and considering the source material for alot of those spells (biblical and mythical sources; control water = Moses, create food & water = Moses again, curing = faith healing and so on), these powers don't come from people who ignore their god, or avoid the subject. They come from people to preach the faith, and expand the god's influence. They're like cosmic Amway, but less exploitative.
Clerics have to hold up the religious symbol for alot of their powers. That also says something: "You have to openly brandish my symbol to use the power I share with you". Again, the cleric's job is to represent ("represent, yo"). They're not just regular guys with magic and domains from marginalized, arbitrary and/or unmentioned god X. Any deity who hands out divine power to quiet or indifferent people isn't gonna have as many worshippers as one who does, and is headed for Darwinsville.
If you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.
This will sound a little odd, but Pathfinder 10 is not a Pathfinder compatible product, it was written for 3.5 OGL (since it was out before the release of Pathfinder), so a lot of GM's wouldn't allow it.
Sean Mahoney
If you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.This will sound a little odd, but Pathfinder 10 is not a Pathfinder compatible product, it was written for 3.5 OGL (since it was out before the release of Pathfinder), so a lot of GM's wouldn't allow it.
Sean Mahoney
There is a Feat that allows you to use wis instead of str for to hit... in PF
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What about the quiet, kindly sage who just wants people to get along? What about the fun-loving performer who you wouldn't even guess was a cleric until he channeled energy? What about the studious, disciplined clergyman who would gladly assist a temple of another faith if they needed it because he's so devoted to the divine not being neglected? What about the barely-a-cleric who doesn't care too much what people do and just joined up so he could carry out his vendetta against undead?Those sound like people who the gods wouldn't invest power into, because there's no ROI.
Anyone can worship, and I'll wager that most worshipers get nothing from the god as far as supernatural power is concerned.
By what criteria does a god choose who should have the power and who shouldn't?Looking at the spell list, and considering the source material for alot of those spells (biblical and mythical sources; control water = Moses, create food & water = Moses again, curing = faith healing and so on), these powers don't come from people who ignore their god, or avoid the subject. They come from people to preach the faith, and expand the god's influence. They're like cosmic Amway, but less exploitative.
Clerics have to hold up the religious symbol for alot of their powers. That also says something: "You have to openly brandish my symbol to use the power I share with you". Again, the cleric's job is to represent ("represent, yo"). They're not just regular guys with magic and domains from marginalized, arbitrary and/or unmentioned god X. Any deity who hands out divine power to quiet or indifferent people isn't gonna have as many worshippers as one who does, and is headed for Darwinsville.
That's a fairly limited view.
I've been reading about the gods of Golarian (the official campaign setting for Pathfinder) in making my own cleric character lately, and there are a few gods who really don't care about ROI, as you put it.
The most obvious example would be Cayden Cailean (sp?). He's the Chaotic Good god of freedom, strength, and alcohol. He doesn't have churches. Most of his shrines are inside pubs, because he's the patron deity of bartenders. His dogma pretty much boils down to "Don't be evil, help out others when you can, and relax with a drink once in a while." But as the god of freedom, he doesn't impose specific rules or requirements, because he wants people to be able to make whatever choices they want. So he doesn't care if his clerics are evangelical or not. Even his holy symbol is a mug, so people might not realize it's a holy symbol until they see the cleric use it for some form of divine magic. And like many of the gods (especially the good ones), he gets along just fine with most of the others, so he doesn't try to actively compete with the other good and neutral gods for followers.
My bait was taken.
Thanks for providing an example.
So how would you suppose CC chooses who gets clerical powers and who doesn't?
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My bait was taken.
Thanks for providing an example.
So how would you suppose CC chooses who gets clerical powers and who doesn't?
The god's backstory involves having been a mortal human, accepting a drunken bet in a bar one night to try his hand at a challenge from the gods, then returning 3 days later as a god, with no memory of how he did it. Given his overall attitude, I'm guessing he's the type whose decision making process will frequently involve alcohol... and perhaps sometimes a dart board.
Just as long as his clerics don't act blatantly evil or try to restrict the freedom of others, I'd think he'd probably grant clerical powers to anyone who asked. And by asking, I don't mean a single prayer. They'd probably have to spend some time being devout. But why should he need a weeding out process to decide who's worthy? Why not just accept anyone as clerics who spend a little time working towards becoming one?
Just as long as his clerics don't act blatantly evil or try to restrict the freedom of others, I'd think he'd probably grant clerical powers to anyone who asked. And by asking, I don't mean a single prayer. They'd probably have to spend some time being devout. But why should he need a weeding out process to decide who's worthy? Why not just accept anyone as clerics who spend a little time working towards becoming one?
It would be interesting to see a world where it were so easy. The god would take over everything, since he seems to have infinite amounts of divine power to hand out to anyone who's willing to drink, be nice to people, and be devout for a few years. Billions of clerics.
Even if there was a limited # of people who could be clerics, it would then be a 1st come 1st serve basis, with prospectives and hopefuls waiting for the others to die off so they can get their chance at the lottery of divine power.
Just as long as his clerics don't act blatantly evil or try to restrict the freedom of others, I'd think he'd probably grant clerical powers to anyone who asked. And by asking, I don't mean a single prayer. They'd probably have to spend some time being devout. But why should he need a weeding out process to decide who's worthy? Why not just accept anyone as clerics who spend a little time working towards becoming one?It would be interesting to see a world where it were so easy. The god would take over everything, since he seems to have infinite amounts of divine power to hand out to anyone who's willing to drink, be nice to people, and be devout for a few years. Billions of clerics.
Even if there was a limited # of people who could be clerics, it would then be a 1st come 1st serve basis, with prospectives and hopefuls waiting for the others to die off so they can get their chance at the lottery of divine power.
Clerics spread his word (or whatever his portfolios are) and thus increase his power. So why exactly shouldn't he give it to them?
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I'm honestly not sure what the process of becoming a cleric is for many of the dieties. The book I've read didn't cover that aspect. Many of them don't have organized churches, so the old standard of apprenticing at a church or monastary wouldn't apply.
But again, we're getting off topic. My point was that I agree with Jiggy about your view of clerics. They don't all have to be dogmatic, evangelical zealots. Yes, they do occasionally have to show their loyalty publicly to wield the divine power from their deity (display a holy symbol), but that doesn't preclude having a wide variety of personality types.
In fact, there's even one Chaotic Evil god who wants to literally destroy the world, and was locked up by the other gods (even the evil ones) to prevent it. His clerics have to keep their faith a well guarded secret. Of course, most of his clerics are also certifiably insane.
I'm honestly not sure what the process of becoming a cleric is for many of the dieties. The book I've read didn't cover that aspect. Many of them don't have organized churches, so the old standard of apprenticing at a church or monastary wouldn't apply.
But again, we're getting off topic. My point was that I agree with Jiggy about your view of clerics. They don't all have to be dogmatic, evangelical zealots. Yes, they do occasionally have to show their loyalty publicly to wield the divine power from their deity (display a holy symbol), but that doesn't preclude having a wide variety of personality types.
In fact, there's even one Chaotic Evil god who wants to literally destroy the world, and was locked up by the other gods (even the evil ones) to prevent it. His clerics have to keep their faith a well guarded secret. Of course, most of his clerics are also certifiably insane.
True clerics pray to Garagos.
ROI need not necessarily be evangelism. It can be met with sacrifices (blood, food offerings, wealth offerings), but this has nothing to do with Clerics - a non-cleric can make these offerings too.
As for personality types, the two I mentioned above are very different: One was a self-loathing hero-worshiping serial killer, and the other was a warlord wannabe with parent issues. The preaching was just one thing they had in common, as it would be in order to be designated an agent of their god, complete with special privileges (which is an advertisement from said god: "I endorse this fellow - see as he has my power").
Picture a TV series like Game of Thrones, only have it take place in a church (not the building, the organization). Imagine that lots of them were Clerics, and the rest were Experts in Knowledge - Religion. Among the Clerics, how much personality can you have? They're all quoting scripture all the time, but that's not all of who they are.
Ask questions about a cleric's childhood, training, how they found faith, any traumatic experiences they've had, accomplishments they're proud of. Alot of the same things you'd ask any character, except you also ask about their faith.
Funny how I'm arguing this point despite my atheism :3
I'd also suggest looking through some of the campaign journals. Plenty of them have cleric PCs who can be looked to for ideas and inspiration.
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But that's my point - all clerics don't quote scripture. Or wear holy symbols on the outside of their clothing where they can be seen by everyone. Some may spend all day in monestaries reading holy books, away from the world, while a cleric of Cayden Cailean may just hang out in bars most of the time, and most people wouldn't know at a glance that either is a cleric with actual divine powers.
A cleric of Sheyln, goddess of love, beauty, art, and music, might be a poet, painter, or performer, and you'd never know (s)he was a cleric.
You seem to have this idea in your head that all clerics are defined primarily by being clerics, but that just doesn't have to be true.
Heck, what about a Chaotic Neutral character who has 10 levels of barbarian and takes a 1 or 2 level dip into cleric just to get some divine powers from the war god Gorum to buff himself in battle? He's a barbarian first, and he just loves a good fight, without really caring whose side of the fight he's on, just like the war god he worships.
As for atheism, I always wanted to make an atheist character in a D&D type game. I just think it would be funny to see a fighter or rogue or something arguing with the party cleric all the time about how his deity doesn't really exist, and how his powers are just another form of magic, like what the wizard uses.
I agree only to a point.
Cults of secret gods tend to vanish unless there is also a hidden effort to maintain the ranks. That's the job of clerics, even if it's all done in dark alleys away from prying eyes. Even that can be considered evangelical.
Again, it all boils down to ROI and advertising and expanding the god's influence (even if indirectly through his/her spheres). There are lots of ways to advertise.
Like CC's cleric may not be preaching CC himself, he'd be influencing others to go to bars and be nice to people. That's CC's evangelism. CC probably has no scripture outside some drunken scribblings on a bathroom wall, so there's nothing to quote. But the fact remains that CC's evangelism ("this town needs a bar and tavern to help these miners' spirits!") would exist in his Cleric. It just may not be as obvious as that of a formal, fire & brimstone kind of god.
Sheyln's evangelism would be to create inspiring works of art, or teach art classes to children, or start up an online dating service. Her cleric would do these things all the time, live out her ideals, and expand her influence through her work. Again, not as in-yer-face, but still a form of Sheyln evangelism.
And my cleric of knowledge - Oghma chose him for a reason, and the power isn't unconditional. The church of Oghma is very formal and structured, with titles and standard garb. Similarly with the cleric of Tempus, whose priesthood are clearly defined and described.
Without knowing the details of the god or religion, how do you generalize a cleric's lifestyle or personality?
The answer is: they spread their god's influence and/or faith. Their life revolves around it, just the same way a wizard's life revolves around study, and a fighter's life revolves around combat. Combat feats and the discovery of arcane secrets don't happen by accident. They need some dedication. The same applies for the conditions which merit a god pouring his/her power into you, and naming you as his/her agent. The choice of gods/domains alone creates some personality to build upon, as opposed to the "me with healing spells" which I've seen far too often... just like the "me with a sword" and "me with robes and a wand" characters.
I'd new to PF but have a lot of experience with versions 1 and 2 of D&D. I've always enjoyed playing clerics but I notice that is not an acceptable opinion with most players and GMs in PF. Mostly they think clerics are heal spell vendors with the personality of bits and bytes. I breathe life into all my characters. . . I need a Clerical Development Plan so, when the grousing about needing a rogue this or a melee that comes up, I can pass a Diplomacy check with the GM or the party.
I have some questions
First, is there a clerical version of Eldrich Knight? On an idle moment, I was thinking how nice it would be for a Saranae cleric to be a Fighter/Weapons Master. Gain pluses to hit and damage as you increase in level would be nice!
Second, should a cleric take a few levels of fighter to get some melee abilities or just stick with cleric? For instance, you could take a few levels of fighter and gain power attack. That same Saranae cleric could Power Attack with a mace as well as a skimmatar. . .
Third, how does mixing arcane and divine magic as a mystic thuerge work out? I seem to remember a certian version 1 elf mage cleric who got no respect as a cleric, just remembered as a mage . . .
For the eldritch knight bit, clerics can already make themselves and the other party members much more powerful using spells like heroism, divine power e.t.c.
Instead of taking fighter to take more plusses, consider using spells like doom or bestow curse to give your enemy minuses instead. Bestow curse has a variety of nasty effects like taking a -4 to all rolls, -6 to an ability score. It also lasts for a very long time.
After debuffing enemies use something like divine power or a domain ability like touch of good to grant yourself big bonuses to attack, damage, saves and such along with temp hp.
After losing their strengths and you increasing yours, enemies will fall easily.
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There is a Feat that allows you to use wis instead of str for to hit... in PFIf you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.This will sound a little odd, but Pathfinder 10 is not a Pathfinder compatible product, it was written for 3.5 OGL (since it was out before the release of Pathfinder), so a lot of GM's wouldn't allow it.
Sean Mahoney
@_@? There is? Can you post the link to it please?
@_@? There is? Can you post the link to it please?There is a Feat that allows you to use wis instead of str for to hit... in PFIf you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.This will sound a little odd, but Pathfinder 10 is not a Pathfinder compatible product, it was written for 3.5 OGL (since it was out before the release of Pathfinder), so a lot of GM's wouldn't allow it.
Sean Mahoney
Your Google Fu is weak, my padawan!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand
Also mind to take an negative energy channeler and hit them in the face with it.
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I agree only to a point.
Cults of secret gods tend to vanish unless there is also a hidden effort to maintain the ranks. That's the job of clerics, even if it's all done in dark alleys away from prying eyes. Even that can be considered evangelical.
Again, it all boils down to ROI and advertising and expanding the god's influence (even if indirectly through his/her spheres). There are lots of ways to advertise.
Like CC's cleric may not be preaching CC himself, he'd be influencing others to go to bars and be nice to people. That's CC's evangelism. CC probably has no scripture outside some drunken scribblings on a bathroom wall, so there's nothing to quote. But the fact remains that CC's evangelism ("this town needs a bar and tavern to help these miners' spirits!") would exist in his Cleric. It just may not be as obvious as that of a formal, fire & brimstone kind of god.
Sheyln's evangelism would be to create inspiring works of art, or teach art classes to children, or start up an online dating service. Her cleric would do these things all the time, live out her ideals, and expand her influence through her work. Again, not as in-yer-face, but still a form of Sheyln evangelism.
And my cleric of knowledge - Oghma chose him for a reason, and the power isn't unconditional. The church of Oghma is very formal and structured, with titles and standard garb. Similarly with the cleric of Tempus, whose priesthood are clearly defined and described.
Without knowing the details of the god or religion, how do you generalize a cleric's lifestyle or personality?
The answer is: they spread their god's influence and/or faith. Their life revolves around it, just the same way a wizard's life revolves around study, and a fighter's life revolves around combat. Combat feats and the discovery of arcane secrets don't happen by accident. They need some dedication. The same applies for the conditions which merit a god pouring his/her power into you, and naming you as his/her agent. The choice of gods/domains alone creates...
Agreed that the cleric works towards the same things as their deity. That's why they're a follower of that deity.
But your early posts in this thread sounded like every cleric had to play like an evangelical preacher, which is what I was disputing. As you say, a cleric of Shelyn might just spread art and music, without even mentioning the goddess. That's not what most people would think of in reading your earlier post about all clerics being religious zealots who quote scripture all the time, which is why I was arguing with you.
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@_@? There is? Can you post the link to it please?There is a Feat that allows you to use wis instead of str for to hit... in PFIf you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.This will sound a little odd, but Pathfinder 10 is not a Pathfinder compatible product, it was written for 3.5 OGL (since it was out before the release of Pathfinder), so a lot of GM's wouldn't allow it.
Sean Mahoney
Your Google Fu is weak, my padawan!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand
Also mind to take an negative energy channeler and hit them in the face with it.
AHHhh!!! I did not see that!!! Pain!!!!
Thanks for the info!
I want to thank everyone for a good thread, even if it got a bit off topic. The discussion was great!
Malignor
I know what you mean about millitary precision, I once played with a group from West Point. Scary! I occasionally work with people like that . . .I once ran an invasion of devils that way. As the lesser devils were mowed down, they dressed ranks. The elf mage-thief did a Retributive Strike and took out the Githyanki special forces and Fire Giant shock troops. This is before a reflex save and suffice it to say it a ruin. Too bad about the Staff of the Magi, but no item lives forever.
I agree about clerics. The Bishop of Turpin is like that. I immediately saw some possibilities with Sanranae.
I also believe in buffing up the party. In times before reflex saves for no damage, I would use RESIST FIRE (+4 to save, -2 to each die of damage, save for half or quarter damage), PRAYER, and BLESS.
Jiggy
Mmmm, I think sages are nice but I tend to come from the long tradition of kill em all and let God sort them out.
Fromper
I like the debates with you, Mal, and Al.
Lith, Soberdwarf
Good points both . . .I love the idea of BESTOW CURSE. I hope it is ranged now. Nothing like a little devine smite coming down on an enemy.
Al
I like it! If Saranae won't allow it, maybe Nethys will . . .
Your Google Fu is weak, my padawan!
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand
Also mind to take an negative energy channeler and hit them in the face with it.
There is a Feat that allows you to use wis instead of str for to hit... in PFIf you have access to all Pathfinder materials, not just the Core, Adv player..etc. You may want to look up at theGuided Weapon property. Its from the Pathfinder 10: A History of Ashes and it allows you to use your Wisdom in place of your Str to attack and deal damage. Could be helpful if you want to focus on both spell casting and meleeing.This will sound a little odd, but Pathfinder 10 is not a Pathfinder compatible product, it was written for 3.5 OGL (since it was out before the release of Pathfinder), so a lot of GM's wouldn't allow it.
Sean Mahoney
Heck yeah! Guided hand and a few other feats make channel energy clerics build-able. Grab this and pump Wis and Cha. Str is max 13 for power attack. You now have a melee cleric with caster like save DC's, the same Hit as a Str Cleric, and tons of channel energies with a great save.
I am building a Negative energy (May take Versatile channel to do both Neg and Pos) Cleric of Gorum around this idea. I get to use a great sword with guided hand and I am taking Ferocity and Glory as my domains.