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Being mobile and maximizing sneak attack aren't compatible. At all. Nor is being a ranged rogue. The only reliable method of gaining sneak attack is to Flank. And as a 3/4ths BAB class with light armor and no defensive spells, you simply can't stay in flanking all that often, unless your GM ignores you.
It's an unfortunate fact that rogues are basically...just above useless in combat, unless the conditions are absolutely right.
I won't say that you shouldn't play a rogue. I will say that you should look into Archaeologist bard and sandman bard for all your rogue-y goodness. Arch gets everything a rogue does but sneak attack, and Sandman gets Sneak Attack. These classes are better takes on the rogue, and they are useful both in and out of combat. They get almost as many skills as a rogue too, woot. And, they get 6 level of awesome, awesome spells.
But let's say that you're super stubborn and want to be a rogue.
First thing to do to make your rogue not absolutely useless in combat is to get medium armor. Then heavy armor. You only loose Evasion, I think. Do you plan on making reflex saves more often than having critters attack your AC? No? Of course you don't. So dip into fighter, get those awesome armor proficiencies, and use them.
Second thing to do is make Dexterity 12, and pump Strength and Constitution. You'll be using heavy armor, so a high dex isn't necessary. Grab Power Attack once you can, and use a 2 handed weapon.
Third thing is to grab Toughness ASAP.
You are now halfway towards being somewhat decent in combat. You still have the problem of being a 3/4th BAB class that can't boost your to-hit like every other 3/4ths BAB class.
And requiring a buddy to do any amount of damage more than a scratch.
But! You're a rogue who can possibly stay a bit longer in combat. Yay!
By the way, those bard classes I linked to above can pull off the dextrous light armor fighter well, thanks to spells like Blur, Dance of a Hundred Cuts, and Mirror Image.
I'm something of a fanatic about bards. And a bit zealous against rogues. So...just FYI. I like to say that a rogue is a personality, not a class. I'm also very interested in helping people find effective characters that they'll enjoy (not optimized, just effective).
The cool thing about Bardic Performance is that it doesn't have to be musical. It could be you shouting orders, gracefully moving about the battlefield, or smashing the bones of your enemies (that would technically be Perform (Percussion) :p )
And RAW, it doesn't even need to use a Perform skill. If nothing else, you can inspire your allies with Perform (Stab Bad Guys In Kidneys).
In 3.5, they were froofy musical people. Not anymore. In fact, none of the archetypes even focus on the musical aspects. Some focus on sound, yes. But none music.
If you do end up choosing to go with a bard, make a post and I'll help further. I've already said enough about them! (Ok, one last thing. The Archaeologist is my favorite archetype of any class in the game. I love that guy.)
Back to rogues.
Conventional wisdom is TWF. More attacks, more stabs, more sneak attack. This feat from Ultimate Combat helps out a lot for this. It makes it so you don't need a separate action to feint. You give up your best attack though, so it does have its (huge) drawbacks. However, TWF needs you to stay put to do much of any damage, since it relies on the Full Attack Action. That's at odds with mobility, unfortunately.
Also, that feat requires 4 feats to really work: combat expertise, improved feint, TWF, and TWFeint. That's...level 3? at the earliest, assuming you're Human. Also, the penalty to hit hurts a lot for rogues, due to the aforementioned issue of not being able to raise their to-hit (Archaeologists can!)
I don't know how willing your GM is to use non-PFS rules (he might just be using the rules, and not actually doing PFS stuff), but if you are deadset on a rogue, you should ask to use this. It's something I made a while ago to help rogues out, by taking away sneak attack, but replacing it with something that you can use far more often. They do somewhere between 7-27% less damage than a sneak attacking rogue, but they can do the ability so much more often. It finally lets mobility based rogues work somewhat, as well as ranged rogues.
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Bard IS better than rogue in basically every way, archeologist and dervish are good, sandman can be an awesome sneak.
IMO, the best way to play a rogue is:
Scout archetype
Ninja trick: pressure points
Advanced talent: crippling strike
Grabbing shoot on the run and/or sniper goggles is good for ranged builds
Spring attack for melee
This grabs you 3 strength damage per sneak attack, for one normal and one advanced talent. Leaving plenty of room to prepare for the inevitable sneak attack immune enemies.
Damnit, I always forget the scout.
So yes, mobile and sneak attack can work. But not for maximizing sneaks :)
Suppose I should also mention:
I'm basically settled on Human. TWF seems like a no-brainer, but I could be wrong. Feint is cool, but all related feat chains seem like a steep investment, plus the fact that it's application can be narrow dependent on the enemies one facing. How does trip stack up? I'm definitely interested in ways to flat-foot potential targets, negate AoOs and/or safely remove myself from combat (Spring Attack and Fast Getaway, etc).
Cool homebrew, Cheapy, but my GM has made it clear that strict adherence to the Guide to Organized Play is mandatory.
Consider taking a two level dip into Ninja and picking up the vanish trick (or the Forgotten trick if you have high cha or feats to spend). It'll let you escape from tricky situations easier, pop into invis for an opportune sneak attack and stack with your overall sneak attack damage in the long run. It will also give you poison use, which can be useful.
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I'm going to echo Cheapy in saying that you should find a rogue alternative. Have you seen Urban Ranger? It's true that you'll miss out on sneak attack, but often enough favoured enemy (human) is a far better investment. You'll also benefit from the occasional nifty spell, and you can pick favoured communities, which are the ones where your 'rogue' has friends in low places.
On top of that you get longbow proficiency and full BAB, and some extra combat feats. Not quite as many skills, but 6 + int is still not shabby. You still get disable device for the dedicated trapmonkey job, and with a wand of longstrider you're actually more mobile than a rogue.
Hrmm... the only thing you're missing is Acrobatics as a class skill. That said, a 1-2 level dip into rogue isn't an awful idea.
Milking the most from the Rogue Scout would require 8 levels, granting Skirmisher. If the rest is pure Bard, is it viable?
Viable, but any bard casting will be utility use only (nothing will pass saves or spell resist), and you will be surpassed by full BAB classes and mages in combat by a long shot.
As Mergy said, urban ranger has made rogues obsolete. d6 sneak attacks my seem big, but remember that it adds up to 1.75 bonus damage / level average. d8s from knife master makes that a whole 2.25. Because rogues get nothing to boost their hit chance, have a middle BAB, and sneak attack is incredibly situational, their damage is almost never as good as an urban ranger playing like a rogue.
On top of that, the ranger can track, glide, burrow, breathe underwater, train an animal companion, qualify for feats early, stealth better than a rogue, heal, tree stride.... where as rogue talents generally range from mediocre to crap.
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Agility weapon enchancement in the pathfinder society field guide, Is simply put the most powerful enchantment in game. The only reason to have Str FOR any class is for encumberance and Two handed weapon builds.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. While the agile enhancement certainly makes finesse better, it in no way makes it superior to strength. A strength-based character doesn't need to take a feat to use his main stat for his attack roll and doesn't have to spend a +1 equivalent bonus to use his main stat for damage.
A finesse character is constantly behind a strength character in both feats and wealth, and what they have to show for it is +10 feet movement (not very useful given spells like expeditious retreat) and a higher reflex save (while saves are important, I could also just spend a feat on lightning reflexes since I have a spare one, and spend my didn't-buy-an-agile-weapon cash on a cloak of resistance).
Also if you're not a ninja, don't do charisma. Save it for the classes that get more benefit from it.
Plus, relying on a specific weapon for your entire build to be somewhat effective isn't so smart :-)
Vivisectionist alchemist will also sate your nigh-insatiable hunger for rogue. Lotsa skills (more than the rogue, since they are int based), and full sneak attack! Just no trapfinding.
Also, you get some awesome toys.
Okay, hang on. Rogue isn't that bad. Scout and Knife master do synergize well, Especially since you can throw Daggers as well.
Snap Shot, Underhanded, and a spring loaded wrist sheath and/or Quickdraw are a fun combo for the surprise round, if you can get someone else to take the Lookout Feat.
Nimble moves, Acrobatic Steps, and Fast Getaway are great for going in, hitting them hard, and getting back away in the next round. Ideally, they come after you, and you can continue to move around without provoking attacks of opportunity. Investing in Acrobatics as a skill is also useful for this.
One thing people neglect to tell you about Ninja, is there is no Extra Ninja Trick feat. There is an extra Rogue Talent feat, and you can take ninja tricks as a rogue without too much difficulty. You just have a Rogue Talent Tax for a Ki pool before you can do stuff like Vanishing Trick. Pressure points is actually a good Ninja Trick that doesn't require a Ki Pool, and you can get it as a Rogue without any trouble.
As long as you play intelligently you should be fine. Are there more powerful classes? Yes. But it doesn't mean you can't have fun with a rogue.
Oterisk: I think there could be an argument made that by taking Rogue Talent ninja trick, you have the class feature, and can then take Extra Rogue Talent to pick up extra ninja tricks.
At least, there are examples of alchemist feats requiring discoveries.
The problem with Fast Getaway and the scout archetype is that you:
1) charge in, a full round action for one attack. you're then stuck there.
2) get hit with a full attack by some nasty critter (or weak critter)
3) make a single attack, then Withdraw.
So, you get 2 attacks, and they get a full attack. I'm not sure how long you can keep that up.
...although I think I just found an interesting combination for rogues...
Urban ranger is technically compatible with guide. Guide lets you "spike" when you want, with the swift action Ranger's Focus.
Note that the interaction between Terrain Bond of the guide and Favored Community of the Urban Ranger is a bit weird. You'll need your GM to decide if Terrain Bond works on Favored Community or not, since by RAW it does not.
Note that there's a precedent set in the FAQ for adapting an archetype so that it works with abilities that require Favored Terrain.
You may want to check out the PFS forums and ask advice for a build. Not everything in every book is legal.
High dex is not a trap build. Agile enchant is the way to go.
Dex gives you touch ac. Reg ac. Init. Bonus to hit with ranged weapons. Ref saves.
20 point buy goes fast.
Con is a great stat.
PFS is fun. Allot of the encounters may be easy for an optimized group.
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You may want to check out the PFS forums and ask advice for a build. Not everything in every book is legal.
High dex is not a trap build. Agile enchant is the way to go.
Dex gives you touch ac. Reg ac. Init. Bonus to hit with ranged weapons. Ref saves.20 point buy goes fast.
Con is a great stat.PFS is fun. Allot of the encounters may be easy for an optimized group.
There is no situation where a finesse build is more optimal than a strength build. You're correct though that it's possible to overtune yourself for PFS by worrying about optimization.
If I were going to use finesse I would look at the ninja anyway. It's a better class with more stuff to do, and you can take advantage of the fact that you're not plugging strength by plugging your charisma instead.
Scout + Knife Master + Merciful daggers w/ Sap Expert could be funny. Grants +d6, double sneak damage. Jump around, beating people unconscious. ;)
I'm silly.
There's actually quite a bit of debate over that combination.
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed.
Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack.
The issue is that Scout's Charge lets you deal sneak attack as if they were flat-footed. It doesn't actually make them flat-footed against your attack. Just that you get sneak attack as if they were.
So...the debate about is whether they are flat-footed against your attack, meaning they don't get their dex bonus to AC, or if that's just mentioning what way to treat the source of the sneak attack from (say for Uncanny Dodge).
edit: I'm just going to take my personal opinion out, so that it doesn't derail the thread.
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A few things to think of when building a Rogue. Building as a fighter then making a rogue is a good way to look at rogues. That means you need to fist look at Str,Dex,Con then the other stats. And you can dump Cha, even Int if you really need to. If your going to multi class make sure the other class helps your build over all. That means it needs to expand on what you can do. The more it allows you to expand what you can do the better off you are when you take it. (Example: Fighter: +1 feet, martial weapons, -2 skill ranks per level. Barbarian: +Fast move, martial weapons, rage, - none. Ranger: +Martial Weapons, Favored Enemy, 6 skill ranks per level, cure wands - none.) Rogue can be a very good class if made right. The problem is most people don't under stand how to do it. The #1 most common mistake made with rogues are a lack of Con. This is something I wish was not true but all to often something I run in to. I ran in to a player one time that stayed out of every fight. I asked them what there problem was. My character only has 43 HP I don't want him to die. (My response) Your level 10 and only have 43 HP? Whats your Con? And remake your character there is no saving it. (Later) Come to find out they started with a Con 8 and did not get a item yet.
My personal suggestion: Ranger6/Rogue(Bandit)6
Str>Dex>Con>Int>Wis>Cha for ability's when building the character.
And even when your leveling the Ranger you do not lose many skill ranks per level.
You end up with a BAB 10, Sneak Attack 3D6, Fort 7, Ref 10, Will 4, Trap finding, Evasion, Trap Sense +2, 3 Rogue Talents, Ambush, Favored Enemy(+4,+2), Track, 2 Combat Style Feat's, No umd check for most cure wands.
Another amusing combination is Thug / Scout. Grab Cornugan Smash (or whatever the one that lets you Intimidate those you whack with power attack), and the Shatter Defenses line of feats.
Before you are able to get all ~4 feats for shatter defenses, you can at least frighten enemies, making them flee from combat.
Get a merciful falchion (as a half-orc) and go to town :)
This has the advantages of it working from level 1, which is a problem rogues have IMO. It takes too long for them to "click", as you found out. In general, they need a lot of feats to click, more so than most.
No problem!
So, just to make it clear, you want a mobile fighter who can do big "spike" damage, right?
And also have lots of skills to play with.
I just made a ninja for an upcoming AP, after partying with a couple Rogues who seem lackluster I decided on halfling ninja (I like the +1 hit/AC)
20 point buy build:
STR: 14
Dex: 17
CON: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 7
CHA 16
Feat: TWF
Trait: Helpful (+4 Aid Another)
Decided that he's going to mostly be wielding a katana 2HD, and TWF when facing an easy to hit target, and use aid another with helpful trait if I can't hit at all.
Tricks are mostly going in to defensive stuff and poison use stuff. And nuclear shuriken stuff.
Oh and as an alternative class I do not believe you can multiclass with its other (Ninja/Rogue, Samurai/Cavalier..etc..)
It's an alternate class for rogue...but I still think you can take rogue archetypes that you qualify for.
I think RAW is silent though. Although I do recall some paizo person saying the only difference between an archetype and an alternate class is that Alternate Classes get a full level progression chart and artwork.
So it should be cool to be a scout ninja.
And a ninja/rogue multiclass is not possible.
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Yeah Cheapy, even if it WERE viable, I likely wouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure my GM would have a black dragon swoop down and chew my head off just for bringing that to the table ... and I really wouldn't blame him.
Thanks for the tips, calagnar. I definitely consider Con to be super important, I want that +HP each level. I'm also looking into various Fighter archetypes to dip into, something that will improve what I'm doing (or make it viable, at least). I'm currently eyeballing Rangers and Bards as well, for multi-class purposes.
Take bards off that list. It will hurt the charater more then help. Unless your making a bard that can do the rogues job. That is something that is easy to work.
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We are playing the Legacy of Fire campaign and the Roge in our team is now coming into is own.
The Scout Archtype I think is one of the best choices for Rogue. Theability to charge and Sneak Attack allows him to start most fights with an SA. Then at 8th he gained the ability to SA after moving 10ft (which according to the details is not limited to melee, so one combat the sling actually made an appearance to save the day!).
Add this guaranteed sneak attack with Befuddling Strike Rogue talent to reduce the mobs chance to hit and you are in for a good combat.
So the scout allows for reliable sneak attacks, all that's left is to get full attacks for TWF. Flanking can be ricky to do and get full attacks, especially against smart monsters.
The best option is to get Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses. This means when an opponent is shaken, after your first attack they are flat footed until the END of your next round. Now, the issue here is you do not want to waste a round intimidating (especially if Cha is not high).
The best combination with shatter Defenses is to have a Bard in the team -- at lvl 8 they get Dirge of Doom (or at least the Arcane Duelist does) this is a song with no resist (I think) that causes all monsters in range to become shaken and allows the Rogue to go to town.
The alternative is to have another player kind enough to use a round inimidating foes for you (I play a Paladin with 18 Cha and can Intimidate a single opponent for 1 round without even rolling, so my roll allows for additional rounds).
So, there are ways to make the Rogue useful but it takes teamwork. Scout allows the Rogue to do decent damage regardless, teamwork allows the Rogue to regularly pull off Full attacks. Also, as mentioned above, befuddling plus shaken helps reduce the chance of being hit.
In our fights my Paladin has the spell Paladins Sacrifice so if something goes very wrong for our Rogue in close combat I can take the hit, but alternatively I could also cast Shield Other on him to take half the damage for most the day. Meanwhile we set him up nicely for Sneak Attacks, afterall, me using a round to Intimidate is well worth the extra damage he does when compared to my non smiting damage
Dirge of Doom does not give shaken. It mimics it, but is not it.
I like thug better. Except for that non-lethal bit.
And you definitely should be looking at at least 13 Str :) 14 preferably, since if you take ability damage, you'd lose access to power attack until it's healed.
Welp, that's all very depressing. If I wanted to stomp around in heavy armor bashing people with a 2h weapon, I'd just play a Fighter. I like the *idea* of the Rogue class, the concept appeals to me (always has), though the reality appears to be a far cry from my expectations ... and I was going in with low expectations.
I've actually been looking into various Bard archetypes as well. Both Sandman and Archaeologist have crossed my radar, as has Daredevil. I'm not a big fan of singing and dancing to get things done, but I keep coming back to it, especially Archaeologist (no bardic performance).
I am nothing if not stubborn, however.
Thanks for your input, Cheapy.
That *IS* just an opinion. In my party we have a rogue and he's doing just fine. He lays down the most damage of the group. The key is always being able to move into flank, so I must recommend the following:
Slippers of Spider Climb: Give you a climb speed, so you essentially walk on walls, now people can't really corner themselves out of your reach and it opens up a lot of lanes to move
Expertise & Gang Up: with slippers of spider climb there is no reason you shouldn't be able to get a flank off with these from even a terrible position.
Lunge: Another additional way to reach out and touch someone.
In addition, I recommend a level of fighter for the armor proficiencies and the shield, if you go TWF making it a rapier and small (bashing, spiked) shield. With shield bash it comes out excellent in the long run, you get a ton of armor (medium armor possibly + a shield) and you dont lose it while shield bashing.
I do not doubt that the rogue can be the best damage dealer in a party, but that speaks more of the rest of the party than of the rogue. Even a character whose only levels are in warrior can be the best damage dealer in a party.
Dave, if you're going to be using a two-handed weapon, you should consider putting Str above Dex. Even just 16 / 14. It'll increase our damage a lot. Plus, a single instance of ability damage probably won't screw your entire build over, since you have a buffer of 3 points before you lose Power Attack :)
Of course, the elven curve blade is finessable.
Here's a build by SunsetPscyhosis that might be helpful. Half-orc thug scout rogue 4 / ranger 4 that focuses on basically the same stuff you're thinking of.
Is cornugan smash even PFS legal? Looks like it, if it's on page 26 or 27.