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If memory serves (my PFS Field Guide is at home), the Agile weapon enhancement specifies that you don't get 1.5x for two-handed wielding. I'm like 91% certain. So an Agile ECB with 18 DEX would get 1d10+4 damage (well, plus an enhancement bonus because it has to be a +1 weapon before you can add Agile, but you know what I mean).

But Power Attack will still grant you the extra bonus associated with using a two-handed weapon.

Thanks Jiggy. Not what I wanted to hear, but that's what I assumed.

Thanks for the builds, Guy. Alas, my standing as an old school 2nd edition purist is in jeopardy, as I'm now leaning toward a Rogue/Ranger mash-up ...

Dang. Well, I suppose going with a Half-Elf wouldn't be the worst thing. I tend to play Human, but when I do stray it's almost always to Half-Elf. I'd break even with feats as I'll otherwise end up spending my bonus Human feat on the exotic proficiency. Of course, I'd lose out on the +1 skill rank per level ... I'd miss that, but I suppose multitalented will make up for it somewhat should I opt for a Ranger/Rogue.

Hmm. Skirmisher is a great idea, Cheapy. Two of the tricks in particular have interesting applications with my concept: Rattling Strike and Quick Shift. Rattling Strike allows me to rethink the use of Rake, which is kind of a big deal ...... and a swift 5 foot move that doesn't provoke AoO? Yes, please.

Add in the half-elf alternate racial ability "ancestral arms" for level 1 proficiency with the curved blade. And keep in mind, you don't get bonus and a half from agile weapons two-handed. So, while it is nice, you can probably expect it to add no more than 4 damage per swing. Also, dont forget the beauty of a wand of lead blade, to crank out your damage from 1d10 to 2d8. That is a *huge* kick.

Dude. "Ancestral Arms"? Wow, I've been ignoring the alternate traits in the APG, I assumed they were optional rules not intended for organized play. Is it PFS legal? I've been looking for EXACTLY that, a means to get the proficiency without having to spend the feat. I ended up with the +2 init trait instead, if only as a way to justify the exotic proficiency and still end up with something useful.

Lore Warden is pretty nice, but I think I'm leaning toward the Tactician archetype for the one or two level dip, assuming I decide to go that route.

I'm really falling in love with the notion of the Elven Curved Blade + the PFS agile enhancement + a doubled crit threat range + Scout sneak attack w/ Rake causing shaken (plus bleed critical feat and additional bleed talent or Offensive Defense). The build is relatively viable from early on, but it'll take a while to FULLY realize itself in terms of sheer damage potential ... but there's a lot more to this character than DPR. It will also function quite well in non-combat scenarios. The only real downside is the loss of trapfinding, which can't be replaced until level 6 with a dip into Pathfinder Delver (though I can at least take the Trap Spotting talent, I suppose).

Adopted trait, Elf or Half-Elf, take the associated +2 initiative race trait. Second trait would be Poverty-Stricken. I picture an outcast Elf or a downtrodden Half-Elf wanderer finding a young Human boy in the wreckage of a bandit raid, taking him in (begrudgingly, of course!), eventually training him in the use of the blade (his only possession of value). They roam the roads together, living off the land, the boy becomes a sneak thief out of necessity ... explains a lot. I can even explain Tactician, assuming the adopted "parent" is an exiled Elven military figure, maybe a ex-general forced to wander due to some heinous crime ... but now I'm writing a back story for my characters father figure. ;) All very classic - albiet a tad stereotypical - high fantasy stuff.

Quote:

and can be used with weapon finesse.

An ECB has a unique property: it's the only high-threat finessable weapon which can be used two-handed for maximum Power Attack damage. And it can take the Agile weapon enhancement despite it being a two-hander, meaning you only need as much strength as is necessary to carry it.

Which means: you can do a TON of damage without being built like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Sorry to necro a thread a month and a half dead, but I do have a question about this:

Let's say you're packing an ECB with a Dex 18 and you receive the agile enhancement. Since it's not a light weapon, are you now applying a 1.5 Dex bonus (+6) instead of the standard 1.5 Str bonus for 2h? Or ... something else? I don't have the PFS Field Guide yet, so I'm not entirely sure how this works, but I am curious.

Thanks - and again, sorry for the necro.

So for the first half of your characters carer they are useless? No good build lets you be useless for that long. At the most If a character can not function by level 3 at optimal ability it's time for the scrap yard and start over.

Wow. Pretty liberal with the word "useless" there, aren't ya?

So a character can't apply Dex to damage until level 6. Does that make him "useless"? Hardly. Optimal? Absolutely not, but I think I've made it pretty clear that optimization is not my goal. He functions perfectly well by level 3, just not at max damage output. If that makes him "useless", I suppose I should admit to playing dozens of useless characters in the past ... and I'll likely play a dozen more.

That said, I do appreciate your opinion. Thank you for your input.

Great points, rkraus, especially about not strictly NEEDING a Rogue.

I was pretty quick to realize that feats make the man (for Rogues more so than anyone else). Regarding Use Magic Device, that's the first thing the GM said when I mentioned a Rogue: "Get UMD". I believe a Ranger dip has been mentioned several times, as has Bard. I'm still toying with the notion of a Ranger/Rogue, currently considering several Ranger archetypes that compliment the concept (Urban being top of the list).

Hey psionichamster, I have a question regarding Str. You mentioned not dropping the stat for the times that sneak attack fails. Have you played any PFS games using the agile enhancement (Dex to damage)? I'd still hesitate to drop Str below 10 (I don't like doing that with any stat, tbh), but I'm interested to hear your opinion. Dex to damage would seem to level the playing field a little (though far from optimal), assuming one intends to stick with light weapons and Finesse instead of 2h and the like.

Actually, I was JUST gonna ninja-edit my previous post with:

That said, I really do appreciate people coming in with advice on optimization. I'm always interested in what works and what doesn't!

So yeah, absolutely. Cheers Cheapy. Keep the advice comin'.

... 'cause knowing the half the battle-YOJOE!

I straddle the line between munchkin and RP'er. Pre-game, I love delving into mechanics and modifiers, discovering new synergies and interactions. I really enjoy eeking every last drop of potential from a concept, and the tweaking usually revolves around combat (as the rest tends to fall into place).

... but the concept is king. Character and theme win out every time over DPR and number crunching. I'll ignore the most devastating synergy in favor of mechanics that better suit the theme. Rake versus Thug is a good example.

I'm also a vocal supporter of non-combat encounters. Many of my top 10 "Most Memorable Moments Evar" in pen-and-paper have been during sessions where not a single hit point is lost, not a drop of blood shed. Yet another reason why I'm opting for Rake over Thug. While Intimidate will no doubt find it's way into non-combat situations, so will Bluff and Diplomacy. The Rake fits better, plain and simple.

I have no intention of dumping Con (maybe Wisdom), and I consider Toughness a must-have feat. I'm also thinking of a dip into Fighter at 1st level, just to grab that full d10 of HP right off the hop.

I intend to have high Dex, but I've decided on 12 Str minimum. And not just for combat. A Rogue needs to climb, sir.

Reach weapons ... hmmmm, I need to look into that. Thanks for the suggestion!

I have a feeling this character will be a far cry from a combat-master. So long as he contributes, I'm happy. The numbers may be secondary, but I still enjoy crunching them.

Cheers!

Yessir, I agree. I decided against the Power Attack route, pretty much right away (posted in my original thread maybe 10 minutes after I suggested it). It doesn't mesh with my theme and I'd have to rethink the entire character to justify switching to Thug. Nuts to that! I also prefer the mechanics of Rake, even though the damage output is reduced. Given the choice, character and theme win out over DPR more often than not.

That said, I really do appreciate people coming in with advice on optimization. I'm always interested in what works and what doesn't!

I'll definitely look into it, but my first instinct is to stick with Rake and go with Piranha Strike.

I know Thug/Cornugan would be better from a pure DPR perspective. That said, I like that Rake has the effect built in ... plus it suits the theme of the character 1000x better and offers a nice bonus to Diplomacy and Bluff for party face duties. I also like that you can sacrifice additional levels of sneak attack to add +5, to custom tailor the roll against high DR targets and guarantee multiple rounds of shaken. I realize the additional rounds are built into Thug, but not the ability to fudge the roll so high in my favor. This will also allow me to focus on my Dex/(Focus)Elven Curved Blade for Dazzling/Shattered Defenses and feel confident of it's application (barring immunities, of course).

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'll take a peek at Sunset's build ASAP, but for now I'm off to the food court for questionable Japanese cuisine. Thanks again!

2 hand 1d10 18-20x2 weapon, finesse-able, and has a +2 CMD against sundering. Exotic weapon proficiency. If you are going to be using strength as your attack stat, this thing packs on the damage. My current character packs on crits for a good 40 damage a good 2-3 times per encounter at the lvl 5 range. 6d8+20 crits are wonders to behold, especially when they happen on a 15 and up!

Going back to Alexander's suggestion, I wonder if I should being going this route. If I drop Rake archetype for Thug, bring my STR up to the min needed to qualify for Power Attack, suddenly I'm in the running for Cornugon Smash. I can still have a reasonably high Dex ...

This would seem to be a more efficient option, giving me more ways to scare people into not hitting me back while I flat-foot them and pummel with repeated sneak attacks.

Oops. Sorry for the triple post. I suppose I could've just edited. :P

I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't be looking at the likes of STR 13, an Elven Curved Blade and feats like Power Attack and Cornugon Smash. I can still have a reasonably high Dex ...

With Cornugon Smash, I could drop Rake for Thug ...

Cheers, Asteldian. My thoughts exactly on the Scout. Paired with Rake, Dazzling Display is no longer a necessity. It *can* be used to apply shaken to numerous enemies, or one can choose to focus their effort with the Rake feature. The only issue there is you need to sneak attack once and sacrifice a d6 to impose shaken (at least it's guaranteed with Scout), then attack AGAIN (likely as part of a full attack, hopefully with initiative) to ensure continued flat-footed. I still prefer it to Dazzling since I get to at least inflict damage and a talent/crit feat for the same effect instead of "wasting" an action putting on an impressive (albiet harmless) martial prowess clinic. You can stack the two methods as well for multiple rounds of shaken, assuming high enough Charisma and Intimidate.

Either way, Shattered Defenses is the meat and potatoes, true enough.

Only 2? Thrilling Escape (lvl 3) looks so boss.

"Alright guys, I'm pretty sure this path is clear.. trigger a trap ..run, run run, RUN!!!"

You're killin' me, Walter. Guardbreaker is pretty rad, too:

At 3rd level, a delver’s familiarity with the strange guardians often left in tombs allows him to attack them more effectively. He may treat his trap sense bonus as if it were a favored enemy bonus against constructs, oozes, and undead; this bonus stacks with any ranger favored enemy bonuses.

Situational, but against the right enemy and with a bucket load of levels in Rogue and trap sense stacking, it would make for a meaty bonus under ideal circumstances.

Arg. Vigilant Combatant at 4 is nice, as well. I need to stop reading.

Dang, that Pathfinder delver is tempting...

Nah, I'm going to stick with pure rogue. Waiting until 6th level might be difficult.

It will be, and that's how I'm gonna justify it! :)

This guy will have been on several adventures by level 6, I'm hoping he stumbles across at least a few magical traps by then. Annoyed with his inability to deal with them, he takes it upon himself to learn the ropes during his down time at the Society. I'll only be getting a +1 on the Perception checks, but all the other stuff is juicy. Take 10 under stress would make the lack of a huge bonus less painful.

Thanks WalterGM! Man, I looked last night for Seekers of Secrets but I couldn't do a search on my phone. Defeated by a wall of text. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear.

Pathfinder Delver

Considering a 2 level dip there. Surefooted is kind of badass.

I'm getting a little dip-happy, though. 1-2 level Fighter, 1-2 level Delver. I don't want to each into my sneak attack any more than I have to ...

I wonder the same thing. The Scout/Rake build sacrifices both Uncanny Dodge and Trapfinding. I can live without Uncanny Dodge (prefer not to, of course), but I'm NOT happy losing the ability to disarm magical traps. I guarantee that will come up, and those at the table will almost certainly look to the only Rogue ...

I've even considered a 2 level dip into and Archaeologist Bard, if only for the features:

Archaeologist's Luck (Ex): Fortune favors the archaeologist. As a swift action, an archaeologist can call on fortune's favor, giving him a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. Maintaining this bonus is a free action, but it ends immediately if the archaeologist is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. Archaeologist's luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance. Like bardic performance, it cannot be maintained at the same time as other performance abilities. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 11th level, and +4 at 17th level.

Clever Explorer (Ex): At 2nd level, an archaeologist gains a bonus equal to half his class level on Disable Device and Perception checks. He can disable intricate and complex devices in half the normal amount of time (minimum 1 round) and open a lock as a standard action. At 6th level, an archaeologist can take 10 on Disable Device checks, even if distracted or endangered, and can disarm magical traps. This ability replaces the versatile performance ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, an archaeologist gains uncanny dodge, as the rogue class feature of the same name. This ability replaces well-versed.

Two levels is a pretty steep price to pay for only a few features, of course. Gimps my BAB, fewer skills, for what? I don't think it's very practical, which is why I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Delver.

That said ... I'll have a high Charisma to take advantage of Rake, so the Luck performance wouldn't be a total waste. Clever Explorer and Uncanny Dodge plug up the two big holes created by Scout/Rake. Bardic Knowledge? Okay. Not terrible. It applies. I'm not sure what else the Bard class brings to the table in terms of spells and whatnot. With only two levels, I assume they'd be pure utility with no real application. 4 cantrips and a couple level 1 spells. Maybe something useful, I need to look into it.

Probably a terrible idea.

The archetype fits, though. Especially in a PFS game.

I'll probably pass on the Dervish Dancer, if only because it runs so contrary to my established theme ... but it's a great idea. Something to keep under my hat for a future character. I really need to be stingy with my feats, as well. I have a feeling I'll be scraping by as is, even with taking full advantage of Rogue talent feats, extra Fighter levels and Human.

Thod, I had to Google "Merisiel". I guess that shows how new I am to Pathfinder. :) I'd say I'm about 25% munchkin/optimizer, 75% roleplayer. The 25% comes out pre-game, during character creation. I love rules, I spend hours mulling over synergies and build progression, figuring out how best to make things "work". On the other hand, I insist that a character fit a certain theme, that every feat, talent and feature is justified via the backstory.

It's a tough way to go. I takes days to find a balance I can live with, something that straddles the line between effectiveness and theme. If even one aspect is off, it doesn't sit right. I'm a tad OCD about it, to be honest.

Matthew, get out of my head! I was *just* coming here to ask if the Lore Warden was PFS legal. It fits the character and I really dig the extra skills, and Combat Expertise ain't bad if I dip 2 levels. I'm also looking at the Tactician archetype for the extra skills and the +1 to initiative at level 2. Both fit well.

I was also wondering if the Pathfinder Delver PrC is legal or not ...? Looking at the additional resources (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/resources), I don't think it is ... but I wanted to double check. It not only fits the character, it also replaces my lost trapfinding with a single level dip.

Jiggy, thanks for the tips! I actually had this character as a Knife Master archetype for the longest time (+xd8 sneak), but decided to swap it out in favor of Rake (the Sundered Defenses potential is too juicy). I'm really interested in a high crit range, anything 18-20. Curved Elven is tempting; nice threat range, high base damage, finesseable. Bleed crit feat will likely play a part in this build.

I'm still out on TWF. I was thinking the build would be based heavily on the likes of Spring Attack and Fast Getaway, but with Rake entering the picture - the potential to shake a foe for -2 attack, plus Befuddling Strike and/or Offensive Defense - I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'll find a use for additional off-handed attacks.

Dervish Dance and Armor Expert, both great ideas. Definitely something to consider, though Dervish Dance would force me to rethink a few things, backstory wise. Thanks again!

Sounds pretty great. Exotic proficiency, another feat. Hmm. I was hoping to use Finesse, Piranha Stike and the agile enhancement to make Dex a reasonable damage stat, but I really need to map the build and prioritize my feats.

Question, a little off topic but related to the build: Is the Pathfinder Delver prestige class legal for organized play?

Thanks guys. Fromper, you read my mind. Level 1 (maybe 2) dip into Fighter nets me HP, martial proficiencies and the all-important extra feat. I'd probably end up with at least a 2 level dip. I'll look into archetypes tomorrow, see if there's one that compliments my concept.

Human has already been determined. It works for the build and besides ... I always play Human. It's how I do. ;)

Ninja is certainly on my radar, Alexander. I'm really attracted to a few of the Rogue archetypes, however.

Speaking of which, Bandit/Scout doesn't work. They both replace the same base feature, which is a no-no. I did stumble across the Scout/Rake combo, though, which I actually prefer. Charge in for sneak, roll to Intimidate, enemy is demoralized/shaken. They're -2 to hit/save/check, granting me some protection. If I stack the Offensive Defense of Befuddling Blade talent, I'm afforded even more protection. It works as of level 4 and applications become broader as levels increase (especially at level 8 Scout).

This also opens to door to Dazzling Display/Sundered Defenses, which could result in a whole schwack of flat-footed sneak attacks and potential crits with juicy bleed damage.

But to do that I'd need Weapon Focus, I'd have to choose my blade. Elvish Curved, you say ...?

D'oh. So Bandit/Scout is a no-go. I forgot, you can't take two archetypes that replace the same base feature. BUT! I've stumbled across the possibility of a Scout/Rake. In terms of spiking damage, I prefer this to Scout/Knife Master by a wide margin.

Bravado's Blade (Ex): When a rake hits an opponent and deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo 1d6 points of that damage and make a free Intimidate check to demoralize the foe. For every additional 1d6 points of sneak attack damage she forgoes, she receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. This ability replaces trapfinding.

Rake's Smile (Ex): At 3rd level, a rake gains a +1 morale bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.

So I charge in (4th level Scout), hit for sneak attack, roll to intimidate. If it works, they become demoralized, shaken. This nets me a little protection, -2 to their attacks. Maybe I stack a Befuddling Strike on there (talent), another -2. Now they're at -4. OR Offensive Defense, +1 AC for each sneak attack die. The second option gets sweeter as my sneak attack improves. I suppose I could dump both on there if multiple sneak attacks are in the cards (TWF).

Adding more Intimidate shenanigans with Dazzling Display/Shattered Defenses could net several rounds of flat-footed foes @ -4 to hit and a fat AC bonus for me, and that's before I slap a crit feat on there.

It's extremely feat heavy, of course. Would likely require a dip into Fighter just to support it, and it wouldn't be fully realized until quite late in the build, but it could be fun, if maybe a bit gimmicky and one-trick pony-ish.

Of course, I could be totally off base. Thoughts?

Hello PFS folks,

I'm about to join a local PFS campaign and I'm interested in rolling a Rogue. Despite hearing lackluster things about Rogues in general, I'm sticking to my guns as they've always been my favorite class. I may dip into a Fighter or a Ranger archetype at some point along the way, but I'm not sure when, or which one.

I'm not gunning for max DPR, but I am hoping to create a surgical striker, a Rogue that can run in, spike a ton of damage (and crit and/or talent effects), and get out without getting himself killed. I'm looking at a Scout/Bandit mix, for Ambush at 4th level and Skirmish at 8th. Spring Attack sounds like fun, as does the Rogue talent Fast Getaway, maybe Lunge/Monkey Lunge. Pretty much anything that will get me in, drop a big hit and get me out. Feats that allow for additional movement, anything to disengage me from combat.

I'll otherwise be a skill monkey and likely a party face, a Swiss army knife type of character. I don't expect to carry the team with my combat prowess, but I'd certainly like to contribute.

I'm not overly familiar with PFS. Any tips? Suggestions? I've heard there's an "Agility enhancement" that can make a Rogue's life a little easier. Anything else I should know about?

Thanks in advance!

I just made a ninja for an upcoming AP, after partying with a couple Rogues who seem lackluster I decided on halfling ninja (I like the +1 hit/AC)

20 point buy build:

** spoiler omitted **

Decided that he's going to mostly be wielding a katana 2HD, and TWF when facing an easy to hit target, and use aid another with helpful trait if I can't hit at all.

Tricks are mostly going in to defensive stuff and poison use stuff. And nuclear shuriken stuff.

Oh and as an alternative class I do not believe you can multiclass with its other (Ninja/Rogue, Samurai/Cavalier..etc..)

Thanks for that, Keltoi.

I've spoken to several of the folks taking part in the campaign and I can say with no hyperbole that this will likely be the most UNoptimized group of asshats and goodballs ever to roam the face of wherever we end up.

Methinks I'll roll up a Rogue Bandit/Scout with a dip into a Fighter or Ranger archetype (undecided) and see where it takes me. For many of the players, this is their first ever pen-and-paper experience. I suppose if I'm going to experiment with gimpy builds, now's the time!

If I die a horrible death, maybe I roll a Bard next time ... or a Ninja.

Hmm. It's hard to say. I googled it and there's no clear answer. Some say yes, others no. Some say you can't multi but you also can't take associated archetypes. Nothing official either way.

Thanks Broken. I'm still trying to figure out a way to tie Knife Master into a ranged build, high init for sneak attacks. Likely a fool's errand, but fun.

Abandoning Knife Master, I'm considering Scout/Bandit combo. Take Ambush at 4th and Skirmish at 8th, retain trapfinding and trap sense. Not bad.

Sounds about right. Skill monkey with the ability to spike in combat where he's most needed, laying down crit feats and bleed talents, etc. Surgical knife bomb to the kidney.

I wonder about Ninja:

If it's not an archetype, can it be multi-classed with Rogue? Or, it's an alternate class for Rogue, can it take the Scout archetype?

If I could score Scout with Ninja, I think I'd be on the right path.

Yeah Cheapy, even if it WERE viable, I likely wouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure my GM would have a black dragon swoop down and chew my head off just for bringing that to the table ... and I really wouldn't blame him.

Thanks for the tips, calagnar. I definitely consider Con to be super important, I want that +HP each level. I'm also looking into various Fighter archetypes to dip into, something that will improve what I'm doing (or make it viable, at least). I'm currently eyeballing Rangers and Bards as well, for multi-class purposes.

Scout + Knife Master + Merciful daggers w/ Sap Expert could be funny. Grants +d6, double sneak damage. Jump around, beating people unconscious. ;)

I'm silly.

On a realistic note, I wonder if I could somehow make use of Dazzling Display and Shattered Defenses ...

Thanks Cheapy, I'll look into it.

You may want to check out the PFS forums and ask advice for a build. Not everything in every book is legal.

High dex is not a trap build. Agile enchant is the way to go.
Dex gives you touch ac. Reg ac. Init. Bonus to hit with ranged weapons. Ref saves.

20 point buy goes fast.
Con is a great stat.

PFS is fun. Allot of the encounters may be easy for an optimized group.

True. I'll probably move the discussion over the the PFS forum. I have been diligent, checking the lists under "Additional Resources" on the PFS page, but I should probably consult the experts.

I had no idea the Agile enhancement existed until Red Assassin mentioned it. If we're talking pure optimization, Dex is still a losing proposition next to Str (instantly behind the curve, requires more feats), but I think it's pretty clear I'm not about squeezing every point of DPR from a given build. ;)

Thanks again, everyone.

It's been said more than once that going Dex is a trap. While I'd definitely prefer to use Dex with Finesse and Piranha Strike, etc., I suppose I could abandon my (much loved) notion of a Knife Master and go for something beefier to augment the sneak damage.

There's no way this works with pure Rogue, if it works at all. It's obvious that my romantic, traditional notion of the Rogue play style doesn't hold up when dice start flying. Sad panda.

The Vivisectionist is on my radar, if only because of the sneak attack. I need to give the class another look as I dismissed it without really giving it the attention it deserves. I've basically examined at every class that offers sneak attack opportunities, hoping to make the "surgical strike" build work. 8 levels of Scout + whatever.

Ninja looks like a thing ... but I'm confused. Is it an archetype? Or a different class entirely? It doesn't seem to function as an archetype, replacing base class features. I would have to abandon Scout if it's a different class.

I'm not allergic to the notion of a Ranger. Urban Ranger is not something I dismiss out of hand. I have played Rangers in the past, and while I feel many of their "favored" abilities are super situational, I do enjoy the play style.

Thanks so much for all the input, thus far. Very helpful. Food for thought is delicious.

The problem with Fast Getaway and the scout archetype is that you:

1) charge in, a full round action for one attack. you're then stuck there.
2) get hit with a full attack by some nasty critter (or weak critter)
3) make a single attack, then Withdraw.

So, you get 2 attacks, and they get a full attack. I'm not sure how long you can keep that up.

NOTE: I'm a total noob and this concept is/was a romantic notion based on zero actual game play experience:

Indeed. That was my thought process. Once a Scout hits level 8, he can use Spring Attack to get in, hit for big sneak, and escape without provoking AoO. Scout appears to be the only way a player can really dictate the use of sneak attack without relying on other factors.

I had the notion of creating a surgical striker, which was also my justification for Knife Master. Move in 10"+, stab in spleen for d8 sneak, hopefully apply a useful crit feat (feat to double crit threat) and a sneak attack feat/talent (maybe stack some bleeds with feat/talent) + as much bonus damage as possible (like Vital Strike, but something that can be used with Spring Attack), get out without provoking AoO. Or use repositions/feints to remove myself, or move the enemy out of reach to at least avoid a full round attack to the face.

But yeah, this works at level 8. What happens during levels 1-7? Rogue throws knives? I was hoping to integrate knife throwing into the mix, because melee would be a dangerous proposition. The Scout has to charge, attack, then stares death in the face for a round before he can escape. Not ideal. Also, the amount of damage done from a single sneak would pale compared to any front line character simply getting stuck in with a TWF full round with Power Attack or whatever.

I originally thought of doing this with 6 or so levels of the Duelist PrC ... but it seems that every class I'm attracted to is universally reviled. ;) Though some of the features are nice, the extra damage from Precise is hardly worth the multi-class hassle. If I'm gonna multi-class, I need to do it with something that will allow the Rogue to mitigate that full round attack. Get in, stab +xd8 (+ sneak attack talent effect, +possible crit feat), survive, stab (+ different sneak talent effect, +possible different crit feat), escape.

Offensive Defense talent isn't bad, if I maximize the sneak dice. +1 AC per sneak attack die, stuff like that. Or Befuddling Strike. I can see a charge, hit for sneak w/ Offensive Defense, survive, hit for bleed, Fast Getaway. Maybe some crit bleed on top before I leave.

Being able to hold ground for a single turn, winning initiative to launch a flurry of sneak attacks with Sneaking Precision, stack Befuddling and Offensive Defense, Blind them with the crit or something.

Meh. Becoming clear it's a silly idea, but I really do dig the notion.

Suppose I should also mention:

I'm basically settled on Human. TWF seems like a no-brainer, but I could be wrong. Feint is cool, but all related feat chains seem like a steep investment, plus the fact that it's application can be narrow dependent on the enemies one facing. How does trip stack up? I'm definitely interested in ways to flat-foot potential targets, negate AoOs and/or safely remove myself from combat (Spring Attack and Fast Getaway, etc).

Cool homebrew, Cheapy, but my GM has made it clear that strict adherence to the Guide to Organized Play is mandatory.

I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down. All good stuff, thanks y'all.

So this is where I'm at:

I want a character that tickles my itch to play the "traditional" rogue-ish light armor scrapper, but without all the gimp that comes from a pure Rogue build.

As stated in my OP, I really dig the Rogue class with the Scout archetype. I'm also trying to convince myself that Knife Master is a good idea. The idea of mobility with a +xd8 sneak attack is very appealing, and fits very well with the theme I'm going for.

I've also been wrestling with the notion of several Bard archetypes to multi-class alongside said Rogue, with Archaeologist topping the list next to Sandman. I like that the Archaeologist will effectively replace both of the key features I lose from Rogue by taking the archetypes: trapfinding and uncanny dodge. With the addition of Sandman, I'm not completely sacrificing additional sneak attack when leveling the bard. I can also opt to take Archaeologist's Luck and forgo all the singing and dancing I'm so allergic to from a thematic perspective (though I do appreciate that not all bards are tight-wearing lute players, these days).

Milking the most from the Rogue Scout would require 8 levels, granting Skirmisher. If the rest is pure Bard, is it viable?

Ninja crossd my mind, but I definitely prefer the thief/red dragon/toolbox aspect of the Rogue. ;) I'm also intrigued by the Daredevil Bard and the Bandit Rogue, but I really do like the potential of the Scout/Knife Rouge, Arch/Sand Bard build.

Of course, I don't know my arse from a hole in the ground when is comes to fundamental game play, and I'm clueless trying to choose feats intelligently (thanks for the tips Lepermachaun).

Am I out to lunch on this?

Welp, that's all very depressing. If I wanted to stomp around in heavy armor bashing people with a 2h weapon, I'd just play a Fighter. I like the *idea* of the Rogue class, the concept appeals to me (always has), though the reality appears to be a far cry from my expectations ... and I was going in with low expectations.

I've actually been looking into various Bard archetypes as well. Both Sandman and Archaeologist have crossed my radar, as has Daredevil. I'm not a big fan of singing and dancing to get things done, but I keep coming back to it, especially Archaeologist (no bardic performance).

I am nothing if not stubborn, however.

Thanks for your input, Cheapy.

Hey all,

I'm attempting to map out my first ever Pathfinder character and I'm looking for suggestions. Speak slow and use small words; I haven't played D&D since 2nd edition, I'm very out of the loop.

We're running a Pathfinder Society campaign (GM believes we'll cap out around 12th level) with all the requisite Organized Play build limitations. No dipping into 3.5 or anything. Despite hearing nothing good about Rogues, I'm dead set on playing one. It's my lot in life to play a Rogue in every RPG ever, who am I to argue? I realize I won't be outputting the most damage per round and I'm okay with that, but I also don't want to be TOTALLY useless when the fighting starts.

I will likely end up being the face of the group, the Swiss army knife everyone turns to when the problem doesn't involve hacking/smashing/frying something to bits/a pulp/cinders. Y'know: Rogue stuff. Skill monkey.

As for combat, I'm liking the Knife Master and/or Scout archetypes. Barring that, I'm considering something ranged (bow). I want to base the combat around mobility and maximizing sneak attack. I've thought about dipping into Fighter for a few levels, if only for the extra feats, the BAB and the martial proficiencies.

Any thoughts (besides "Don't play a Rogue!" ;))? Thanks!

Wow! This blossomed into quite a little discussion. Thanks for the input, everyone.

I'm certainly no power gamer, though I do appreciate good synergy and DPR as much as the next guy. I love Rogues. I always play Rogues and shall continue to do so, regardless of their viability from a number crunching perspective. I've long since come to terms with their limitations.

I appreciate the feedback, but I've already decided to abandon the Arcane Trickster. I'm not a fan of magic, in general. I thought maybe I'd try something a little different (albiet still Roguish), but I've already soured on the idea. That, and qualifying for the PrC requires too costly a dip into a class I have no interest in.

As for building to 20, that's just an old habit. I always map my characters out to level cap. Hardly necessary, I realize, especially in a campaign that likely won't progress beyond level 12. The Rogue + Trickster combination takes far too long to pay dividends, made worse given the length and format of the campaign.

I continue to search for a class combination that will suit me. I'm about to start a new thread on the subject, actually ...

Thanks again!

I wonder, is there any way to swing a 2nd level spell at level 2? Is there a class/feat/archetype combo that can manage it? Just curious. I'm looking to build a Rouge/Trickster that needs a 2nd level spell in order to qualify for the PrC, but I *need* (... really want!) my other 18 levels. That leaves me with only 2 levels to dip into SOMETHING to qualify for the prestige, but I can't find any way to finesse a 2nd level spell with only two levels.

Granted, I've only been perusing the Pathfinder material for a few days. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of the text can put me on the right path.

Thanks in advance! ;)

D'oh! Thanks Grick. I totally didn't see the heading: "MORE FAQS".

The imagery of the head butt parry is too much for me and feels gamey, but would be good for a lol.

Definitely odd that one can (potentially) parry with a blade boot but not a dagger in the off-hand. <8) Not sure if that's something I'd try to slip past my GM.

Duelist may not be the best class for what I have in mind, but I was digging the Acrobatic Charge in combo with Scout and a few other minor synergies. Actually, it might not be the best choice in terms of the character/theme, either ... maybe back to the drawing board.

Thanks all.

Click Help/FAQ in the very top right corner of any page.

Oh yeah, I did find the general Help/FAQ. :) Is there a link to a rules FAQ in there somewhere? If so, I missed it. Apologies.

If you use Precise Strike then you cannot attack with with a weapon in your other hand. This means you cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting and Precise Strike, and you can't give up an off-hand attack because you don't have an off-hand attack to give up.

You can use TWF without Precise Strike, and give up your off-hand attack to parry.

That was my interpretation. At least one needn't sheath their off-hand weapon each time they wish to launch a Precise attack.

So ... TWF may not be the ideal.

Thanks Grick.

Hi guys,

I know this question has been asked before and it may have been officially FAQ'd. Apologies in advance, I'm new to Pathfinder and I can't seem to locate the FAQ document!

So, I'm busy mapping out my first ever character, a Human Rogue(Scout)(Knife Master)/Duelist build (sub-optimal I'm sure, but whatever, I build for character and theme) and I'm considering Two-Weapon Fighting as one of my level 1 feats. HOWEVER, I'm not sure if/how the Duelist's Parry/Reposte and TWF interact. I realize the intention is for a single weapon in the main hand (like a Rapier), but the wording down not appear to impose an empty off-hand ... simply that an off-handed weapon cannot be used to attack.

So I wonder, if I'm TWF and I declare a full attack action, and I proceed to attack only with the main-hand weapon w/ Precise, can I then declare a Parry with any remaining off-hand attacks? OR (and this is my assumption), since the off-hand attacks cannot be applied as per the Precise wording, this also restricts them as being used to Parry (as they are NOT attacks I have chosen to forgo; they are are restricted/non-existent as per the rules)?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume I cannot use "extra" off-hand attacks to Parry with a Duelist if I'm launching Precise strikes with my main-hand, based on the RAW. Too bad, as it really DOES support the image and the historical precedent, the use of a parrying dagger. I'm hoping that maybe the RAI will brighten my day.

Thanks for reading!