What musicality? My bard's preferred performance is Perform(smash in face). When you get down to it, that's the essence of adventuring.
Inspire Courage means that they can fight well.
Versatile Performance (really the only reason to put ranks in perform) makes them the best skill monkeys. That's before you take magic into consideration.
They can heal as well as almost any other class that can heal.
They can cast some really good spells.
How exactly do you want them to focus more on doing everything? Any focus on music is purely a player's choice. The only abilities that use Perform are distraction, countersong, and versatile performance. The rest? It's fluff.
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I have complicated feelings on this issue.
Yes, I am bothered by the musicality of the bard.
In some sense, it isn't that the bard is too musical, it's that the other characters aren't musical enough, considering that there is no other source of music in the pseudo-medieval-fantasy world. A very large number of people should have musical talent in order to entertain the masses, and even fantasy adventure fiction (from LotR to Ivanhoe) depicts musical talent as a sign of nobility and heroism.
Beyond that, Bardic performance as a game mechanic fails to capture the very real relationship between music and morale; music and war; music and diplomacy; music and religion; music and battle; music and politics. Songs are not sung in the span of 12-24 seconds. Music doesn't rouse you only as long as the musician is playing. The result is silliness: able combatants bringing unlikely instruments into deadly situations... ug.
Suffice it to say that whoever penned the original bardic performance mechanics didn't know very much about music theory or history, and produced a mechanic that seems a very gimmicky treatment.
Bardic masterpieces from Ultimate Magic go a very long way to addressing my concerns. These long casting time, long duration effects reflect what music actually does for morale in a realistic way, and actually make playing a musical character kind of cool. I'm not a huge fan of the actual performances in the book, but the mechanic itself fits. I only wish it somehow replaced the basic bardic performance rules.
(This thread has reminded me to record and post my own list of bardic masterpieces...)
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I actually have a successful lvl 4 bard in a campaign I'm currently playing. He isn't much of a melee powerhouse (though he has an 18 str), but is slated to get some feats which will help improve his standing in that department.
Right now his main thing is buffs and battlefield control, which is pretty much the only thing his spells will ever focus on, and he has managed to slow down even some overpowered bosses long enough for our party to deal with using spells like hideous laughter and grease (which is flammable, a trait our pyro mage makes useful even if it halves the duration). He does have Arcane Strike though, and makes good use of it whenever enemies are too close.
Later on he is going to get Discordant Voice, giving everyone +1d6 onic dmg, and is going to go the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses route and take some Combat Performance feats to allow him to perform the Intimidate as a free action and deal another 1d6 (weapon type) dmg, which as far as I can tell should multiply on a crit. (The actual feats are Savage Display, Performance Combatant, Master Combat Performer, and Heroic Display.) Granted, that is a big feat load, and this is a 20th lvl build, but in combination with Lingering Performance I can pretty much use Inspire Courage all day to give everyone the +4 at, dmg, and saves.
As for the music issue, his main Performance is Oratory, which he uses during combat so he can wield two weapons or a weapon & shield as necessary. No instrument required. He actually "performs" by shouting out encouragements to his allies, insults to his enemies, and by giving battle orders. (His background is a traveling bard who came to love watching the gladiatorial fights and wants to become one himself.)
The Bard spell list gives a ton of buffing, debuffing, and tactical spells (not to mention the magic items he can use), and he can make good use of the Dirge of Doom ability by combining the auto-shaken effect with his Intimidate skill and effectively gaining a bubble of "you're too scared to get to me" against melee fighters if things get too hot. And by the time my build is finished he will be dual wielding rapiers dealing 1d6 weapon +1d6 savage +1d6 sonic +5 arcane +4 competence +5 str dmg per hit (17-32, avg 24.5, slightly less on the off-hand but not accounting for a magic weapon) with 4 attacks using TWF (granted the last one is essentially a dud). That puts him behind the party monk, for sure, but it's good enough to step into melee with and help out. And everybody benefits from Discordant Voice and Inspire Courage.
the bard has music, but he is by no means limited to it, even the alternates seem well balanced between more music and more combat.
the only thing that bugs me is that perform oratory is way superior to perform bagpipes because it leaves hands free.
the bard has music, but he is by no means limited to it, even the alternates seem well balanced between more music and more combat.
the only thing that bugs me is that perform oratory is way superior to perform bagpipes because it leaves hands free.
And? You spend one round with a bagpipe in your hand, then put it away and pull out your sword. Or weaponize the bagpipe.
Hell, RAW you don't even need your bagpipe in hand.
I like that the bard is a buffing powerhouse. The jack of all trades can be fun but it becomes less relevant as your group gains experience, as there are fewer holes to fill.
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The thought that bards are only good for buffing, or only good for 3/4 BAB attacking and support is purely ludicrous.
Whining about the musicality of the bard is also ludicrous...there have been no significant or solid other choices to suggest an alternate course, or different mechanic, and its one of the things that makes the bard what the bard is.
The simple fact is, with a d8 simple weapon, or the long sword, and then flanking and bardic music, the bard is as good as or a better fighter than people let on. Playing a ranged attacking bard is also a solid choice, and makes them just plain ugly in combat, while also giving them the ability to do other stuff, like cast magic, basic and emergency healing and buffing. Things that other classes can't do.
Name one other class that can buff with magic and a unique mechanic, can cast spells, can heal, can fight, and be a skill monkey. That alone makes them the JOAT that OP says they arent.
Alchemist!
Infusions let them buff!
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In 3.0, 3.5 and PF, the Bard seemed to start out with non-musical options, and not too much of a musical focus, but as supplements come out, it seems like more options related to sonic spells, spells named after musical terms (like allegro), or other music-themed options keep showing up, until it *feels* like the class is being pushed into that direction, even if you built your character as an orator or 'priest' reading from a holy book to inspire his flock, or strategist, calling out tactical advice.
Weeding out those options, there are generally plenty of options for a non-musical Bard, although it can be minorly irksome when a really cool or useful new Bard spell or option shows up, but is tied by needless flavor to a musician theme, like solid note (APG) or exquisite accompaniment (Ultimate Magic).
While, technically, a Bard can function on aural or visual performances, new spells have a heavy focus on sonic effects, and less light / color / visual-effect spells than you'd expect. Less piercing screams and sonic song bolts, and more entrancing dances and hypnotic sword kata could be neat (or just trying to 'de-flavor' some of the new spell ideas to have them more generally useful for Bards who go into less musical career paths, like strategist or cult leader or whatever).
Not to thread jack too much.
Can you combine the archetypes dervish and arcane dualist.
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I, too, used to hate the bard due to his fruity musicality.
Then I played one.
They're frickin rad. Seriously, one of my favorite classes now. There's so many ways to play them, but I played it as the center of everything. I buffed my friends while debuffing enemies. Once you can inspire as a move action you can: Round 1-Inspire+Glitterdust Round 2-Haste once everyone is in position to full attack. It's super effective.
For the record I took Perform (Oratory) as my inspiring skill. I get diplomacy and sense motive with skill versatility, and I get to vamp and make up some crazy story meant to inspire my crew.
Whining about the bard's ties to music makes only slightly more sense than whining about a wizard's ties to spellcasting.
Except the bard doesn't have to be musical whatsoever. He has to be a performer,but that performance can be belly dancing for all the rules care.
So many threads concerning bards and their awesome sauce popping up here of lately...
Cheapy, I guess it's time for your guide!
Ruyan.
Not to thread jack too much.
Can you combine the archetypes dervish and arcane dualist.
No, they replace the same stuff. 5 seconds of checking the PRD would have told you that.
Back on topic: Pick up Perform (dance), Dervish Dance feat (not the archetype) and then you dance around the battlefield and slice open enemies. Ok you have to get Scimitar proficiency somehow too :)
Might not be 100% optimized but sounds fun.
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Non Musical Concepts:
1) Dancer
2) Razmiran Cleric (or other false cleric) with Perform (Oratory)
3) Archeologist or Scholar
4) Daredevil Acrobat/Flanker who shouts out a few lines of plays (Perform Acting) as they go into combat.
5)Politician
And this took about five seconds to come up with. Not only are Bards not too musical if you so choose, it is extremely easy to make a non entertainment based Bard.
The only thing stopping people are outdated ideas from previous editions and a failure of imagination and preconceptions.
The bard was originally meant as a jack-of-all trades. Though this is still true, it is very different then the original. In first edition, bards were listed at the back of the book and if I remember correctly, you needed to take five levels of fighter, druid and thief, then you could start taking levels in bard. Also you needed a 15 in St, Wi, De and Co.
In a sense it was the first prestige class. The new bard was good as it allowed everyone to start at first level.
I never liked the newer editions of bards. Perhaps it is because of the performance that bards have to do, or that that is their main thing in an adventure. After all, attacking a dragon always makes me want to break into song {sarcasm}. A bard should be more of a combat ready, spell casting, thief that looks for inspiration in adventure and writes songs or plays AFTER the adventure is over.
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I never liked the newer editions of bards. Perhaps it is because of the performance that bards have to do, or that that is their main thing in an adventure. After all, attacking a dragon always makes me want to break into song {sarcasm}. A bard should be more of a combat ready, spell casting, thief that looks for inspiration in adventure and writes songs or plays AFTER the adventure is over.
It feels a bit silly because in the real world we can sing or play music, and the simple concept of singing or playing music when fighting someone feels a bit strange to us.
On the other hand we accept arcane and divine magic without much trouble, even though it's equally silly when you think about it. But we can't really do it ourselves, so we don't see the RL version infront our eyes but the fantasy one which is effective.
Bardic Performance, and therefore the singing is nothing else but an elaborate magic effect or spell.
Instead of mumbling mangled latin and flinging bat poo at someone (you see, now it suddenly sounds silly, doesn't it? :) ) they sing, or dance or play music to perform their magic.
And it is magic, it's not some weird "the strength has been in you the whole time, my song just showed it to you" mumbo jumbo, it's actual magic.
Also, unlike 3.5 in PF a bard only has to start the performance as a standard action (it becomes a move/swift action later even) but keeping it up is free. Also they can cast spells or normally attack once they got it going. So the "it's their main thing in combat" problem has been fixed i think.
When I think of a Bard in Combat using perform I think of a poet reciting a deadly intimidating poem as he strikes down his enemies.
Or is the hangup the fact that silent metamagic isn't allowed on bardic spells?
Stupid vestigial 3.5 things still left in the game...
When I think of a Bard in Combat using perform I think of a poet reciting a deadly intimidating poem as he strikes down his enemies.Or just shouting rallying cries and platitudes (Oratory performance). I always think of all those great lines from Braveheart.
Doesn't bother anyone that this takes from 6-24 seconds? That it starts working as soon as the bard starts, and stops as soon as he stops?
Does it bother anyone that this is supposed to model a real morale phenomenon in combat that is not otherwise attainable in the rules?
Again, I apologize. Bardic music really irks me.
I think too many of us have the image of the lute playing oblivious bard frolicing about the battlefield, while other 'real' adventurers are actually doing stuff. I know I am unable to shake that image regardless of changes that are made to the bard. I know the class has alot of potential (I love the new line of 3/4 bab 3/4 casting class paizo has put out in the inquisitor, alchemist and magus) but I simply cant muster up the desire to play a bard.
edit:
When I think of a Bard in Combat using perform I think of a poet reciting a deadly intimidating poem as he strikes down his enemies.Or just shouting rallying cries and platitudes (Oratory performance). I always think of all those great lines from Braveheart.
Doesn't bother anyone that this takes from 6-24 seconds? That it starts working as soon as the bard starts, and stops as soon as he stops?
Does it bother anyone that this is supposed to model a real morale phenomenon in combat that is not otherwise attainable in the rules?
Again, I apologize. Bardic music really irks me.
I dont like that factor either, I think though mechanically better the per round factor of the performance has actually made this worse then past editions. I am not sure what the mechanics do should look like but I do agree that they as they stand are somewhat dissociative and silly.
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I have complicated feelings on this issue.
Yes, I am bothered by the musicality of the bard.
In some sense, it isn't that the bard is too musical, it's that the other characters aren't musical enough, considering that there is no other source of music in the pseudo-medieval-fantasy world. A very large number of people should have musical talent in order to entertain the masses, and even fantasy adventure fiction (from LotR to Ivanhoe) depicts musical talent as a sign of nobility and heroism.
There is nothing stopping any other character type from taking a Perform skill. Rogues even have it as a class skill. You can have an Expert who takes Perform as one of his eight class skills and he could be good enough to go on concert tours. It's the lack of imagination that insists that such a character needs be a Bard.
Maybe the next street performer your characters meet won't be a Bard at all....
Actually, unlike stuff like profession and craft, perform can even be used untrained. So anyone with a cha bonus could reasonably try it. That part I kinda disagree with. I think some performance skills should work untrained (singing, oratory), but instrument skills should require training.
As for bardic performance in battle seeming silly to some people, there's nothing that says you even have to use it. Bards are good enough at other things that it's completely possible to run a bard as a martial fighter/archer, skill monkey, and secondary caster without ever even using your bardic performance. Check out Treantmonk's optimization guide for bards, where he says bardic performance isn't worth it below 7th level, because of the standard action it takes to get it started.
But even using Inspire Courage or another bardic performance can just be seen as magical, as Quatar said. Bards just focus their magic through different types of performances, instead of through weird arcane gibberish or through a holy symbol. My bard uses singing and oratory has his primary performances (it's always handy to have one musical and one non-musical), since they don't require instruments.
@Fromper: I want a performance-morale mechanic. I just want it to be cool.
Bardic performance mechanic presently treats music with a Pokémon level of sophistication, where bards are like the music pokemon shaped like a music note and called "Noteax" or something. I can do without the abstraction, thanks.
Give me a rebel song any day. 5 minute casting time, hours duration, bonus to chaotic allies. Give me a tale of a martyr: 10 minute casting time, +1 caster level for divine spells. Make each performance unique, and at least as quirky as a spell. Give me poetic sagas that recount specific battles and give a bonus to those specific situations (think Alexander Nevsky and the battle on the ice... not a saga, but it gets the point across... and give a favored-terrain-like bonus in cold environs).
Masterpieces. I need to make some.
@Fromper: I want a performance-morale mechanic. I just want it to be cool.
Bardic performance mechanic presently treats music with a Pokémon level of sophistication, where bards are like the music pokemon shaped like a music note and called "Noteax" or something. I can do without the abstraction, thanks.
Give me a rebel song any day. 5 minute casting time, hours duration, bonus to chaotic allies. Give me a tale of a martyr: 10 minute casting time, +1 caster level for divine spells. Make each performance unique, and at least as quirky as a spell. Give me poetic sagas that recount specific battles and give a bonus to those specific situations (think Alexander Nevsky and the battle on the ice... not a saga, but it gets the point across... and give a favored-terrain-like bonus in cold environs).
Masterpieces. I need to make some.
And you want to make the bard utterly irrelevant on the battlefield, right? TEN MINUTE casting time? Hey, why don't we go back to magic like in the great old myths and legends where everything is a ritual that needs half the day and six junior assistant cultists, and the blood-sacrifice of a virgin!
IT IS A BLOODY GAME. The bard is like he is because THAT IS WHAT WORKS IN THE GAME. Just like we have wizards who can stand and deliver spell after spell after spell for nearly an hour at high levels with no mental or physical stress and fatigue.
Yeah, why don't we go with the more flavorful, mythological correct views on bards and wizards and priests and just play Conan?
Master Arminas
It's his opinion on a game, based on his real life traditions. No need to get worked up about it.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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And you want to make the bard utterly irrelevant on the battlefield, right? TEN MINUTE casting time? Hey, why don't we go back to magic like in the great old myths and legends where everything is a ritual that needs half the day and six junior assistant cultists, and the blood-sacrifice of a virgin!
IT IS A BLOODY GAME. The bard is like he is because THAT IS WHAT WORKS IN THE GAME. Just like we have wizards who can stand and deliver spell after spell after spell for nearly an hour at high levels with no mental or physical stress and fatigue.
Yeah, why don't we go with the more flavorful, mythological correct views on bards and wizards and priests and just play Conan?
Master Arminas
He didn't say anything about making any of that part of the bard. He said he wanted a performance-morale mechanic, and he didn't like the one the bard had.
Remember, kids: "Read before raging" - it'll help keep people from making guesses about your IQ! ;) (I guarantee some readers of your post have already done so, Arminas.)
Mr. Arminas,
The mechanic I'm asking for already exists anyway. The problem with bardic masterpieces (IMO) is that although the mechanic is great, the actual masterpieces are... not. Some are good mechanically, but the names and themes are really phoned in. Especially the "Toccata and Fugue of the Danse Macabre" which is a very unfortunately bad name indeed*. Are there no musicians at paizo who could have stepped in on that one?
Please don't mistake the above for sheer hate on the rule. Masterpieces are something I definitely wanted. I just feel very strongly on the music issue, as has been mentioned. I am a total, unrepentant snob on this one.
EDIT: You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you're buying a stairway to heaven.
My problem with Bards is when they are all upstairs, playing until 2:00 AM, thumping on the floor, drinking too much beer, having their girlfriends over, and everybody's screaming, and then somebody shouts out that's time to play Freebird ONE... MORE... TIME!!!
Oh, wait. That was me. That was my band. Ahhh, youth.
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Actually, my complaint about bards and music is the fact that the word "bard" literally means "poet". In some cultures, they'd occasionally accompany recitals of their poetry with a single instrument played by the bard, the emphasis was on the poetry. It's not supposed to be a term for a musician. The class should be renamed "minstrel" to more accurately reflect the musical leanings.
The class should be renamed "minstrel" to more accurately reflect the musical leanings.
Thereby invalidating hundreds of published products and making the game even more confusing to learn. :/
Bard is just fine. Perform(Oratory) helps me jump through that cognitive hoop.
Oh. Yes. I wouldn't have called you out on it then.
There was another thread recently about "barbarians" needing a name change. Must be still bothering me.
So what exactly is the problem? You've got rules support for running the bard almost every way you see fit. Or is the hangup the fact that silent metamagic isn't allowed on bardic spells?Whining about the bard's ties to music makes only slightly more sense than whining about a wizard's ties to spellcasting.Except the bard doesn't have to be musical whatsoever. He has to be a performer,but that performance can be belly dancing for all the rules care.
I was just trying to point out your analogy was flawed because a wizard needs to cast spells whereas a bard doesn't have to play music-just perform, which can be any number of things :).
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(think Alexander Nevsky and the battle on the ice... not a saga, but it gets the point across... and give a favored-terrain-like bonus in cold environs).
Masterpieces. I need to make some.
Like this? only some more useful in general situations?
@Fromper: I want a performance-morale mechanic. I just want it to be cool.
Bardic performance mechanic presently treats music with a Pokémon level of sophistication, where bards are like the music pokemon shaped like a music note and called "Noteax" or something. I can do without the abstraction, thanks.
Give me a rebel song any day. 5 minute casting time, hours duration, bonus to chaotic allies. Give me a tale of a martyr: 10 minute casting time, +1 caster level for divine spells. Make each performance unique, and at least as quirky as a spell. Give me poetic sagas that recount specific battles and give a bonus to those specific situations (think Alexander Nevsky and the battle on the ice... not a saga, but it gets the point across... and give a favored-terrain-like bonus in cold environs).
Masterpieces. I need to make some.
I have a mechanic all hammered out but it would need a rewrite of the bard. The main problem tough it's that I would need to go trough every bard performance and bard specific spell, from every archetype and maybe some from 3.5 bard PrCs and convert them all. And that is too much work for my lazy butt.
I could post the base mechanic if you want.
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I was really interested in reading the masterpieces when I heard about them.
The problem is that they are just not very good, apart from a few that if you were given for free you might use occasionally, but not worth giving up a feat or spell for. Almost everything in a master piece feels like a weaker version of a spell that another class can cast a few levels earlier.
I hope that Paizo realise that and release some that are a little more tempting in the future.
I was really interested in reading the masterpieces when I heard about them.
The problem is that they are just not very good, apart from a few that if you were given for free you might use occasionally, but not worth giving up a feat or spell for. Almost everything in a master piece feels like a weaker version of a spell that another class can cast a few levels earlier.
I hope that Paizo realise that and release some that are a little more tempting in the future.
I agree! They're an incredibly cool concept. We just need more. I think they were maybe testing the waters. If they're going to cost a feat slot they should be as good as a feat, alls I'm sayin.
I want one called the Quick Step that just gives everyone Expeditious Retreat while you maintain it and costs 2 rounds of performance per round.
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@Give me a rebel song any day. 5 minute casting time, hours duration, bonus to chaotic allies. Give me a tale of a martyr: 10 minute casting time, +1 caster level for divine spells.
MMOs like EQ and DAoC stuck with the 'bardsong in combat' theme, but Star Wars Galaxies and, IIRC, Lord of the Rings Online, had entertainers or 'bards' that instead sang songs between fights, allowing allies to recover fatigue and wounds faster and / or gave them bonuses that would last a certain amount of time afterwards.
That's certainly an interesting paradigm shift. Instead of giving the cleric channel energy (which is, more often than not, used between combats anyway), giving bards a 'healing song' that they use in between combats, or perhaps even a magic replenishing song that allows them to restore expended spell slots would allow them to fix up a party in between encounters, and, if accompanied by various morale bonuses that they could use as 'pre-buffs,' such as generic pluses to attack, damage, saves, or, more interestingly, single use abilities such as an extra move action (taken once in the next encounter, after being inspired by the bard), or a single reroll of a saving throw or attack roll (once in the next encounter), could make for a completely different sort of bard, who prepares his group before a fight, and helps them recover after a fight, but doesn't necessarily use bardic performance at all *during* a fight.
MMOs like EQ and DAoC stuck with the 'bardsong in combat' theme, but Star Wars Galaxies and, IIRC, Lord of the Rings Online, had entertainers or 'bards' that instead sang songs between fights, allowing allies to recover fatigue and wounds faster and / or gave them bonuses that would last a certain amount of time afterwards.
Well, if you look carefully there is one performance which heals more or less effectively between fights called Soothing Performance at lvl 12. It's essentially a 4 round BP that casts Mass Cure Serious and removes the Sickened, Fatigued and Shaken conditions. There is also an archetype in UM which allows bards to use healing wands and other healing spell trigger/spell completions items at their actual caster level, as well as cast Heal using a 5 round BP and Resurrection as a 20 round BP (@ lvls 14 & 20, respectively).
That said, it would be nice if there were a better mechanic for raising morale before you actually got into battle other than the "baddies just around the corner, let's hide here and buff" method. Maybe something that used BP and sacrificed a spell to extend it's duration to a few minutes, but without actually having to maintain the performance or have something follow you around performing like with the Shadowbard spell (& that 4th lvl slot hurts for just 1 round/lvl!).
Aehm... dance, oratory and pantomime are not exactly musical.
Give me more masterpieces. And make them available to non-bards. I'd love a fighter/rogue chronicler. Or a cavalier writing inspiring poetry.