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Whilst I'd agree that Sorcerer / Rogue is probably a very good combination, and will suit certain character concepts a lot better (the 'charismatic rogue' is a classic, after all), for 'least painful' I'd still go Rogue / Wizard - especially if you're wanting to squeeze in as many levels of Arcane Trickster as you can, and aren't looking beyond level 10.
Glancing at the Rogue archetypes, Cutpurse looks like it synergises really well with Arcane Trickster. You get both the archetype unique features by level 3, and the Stab and Grab feature doesn't state range - so an Arcane Trickster could use it, via Ranged Legerdermain, to attack and steal at the same time at range.
For the Wizard levels, since you're probably going to be looking at a few 'blasting' spells to get the most out of your Sneak Attack damage, the Admixture school looks very nice - with only 3 Wizard levels you only get a +1 damage to your evocation spells via Intense Spells, but the ability to alter the energy type on the fly (combined with a few solid Knowledge Skills to spot enemy weaknesses) will do wonders for your Ray of Frost and Shocking Grasp type Sneak Attacks. You'll want a Bonded Object rather than a Familiar, of course, because the latter only levels with your Wizard levels, but with the former it doesn't really make a difference.
Taking a small sized race is also a big advantage to the prospective Arcane Trickster - you're not planning on relying on weapon-size for your best Sneak Attacks, so getting the bonus AC, to-hit, and Stealth from being small is all pure advantage. Of course both Gnomes and Halflings get Charisma bonuses, but not Intelligence bonuses, so from an optimising point of view it's another nudge in the direction of Sorcerer levels instead of Wizard. On the other hand, the Gnome's Wizard favoured class option is a really nice one, adding to uses of school powers (not that you'll be getting many favoured class bonuses as a multi-class character, but still...). Many of the Gnome alternate racial traits look nice for a prospective Arcane Trickster, and for Halflings the Swift as Shadows alternative racial trait looks nice - since you're likely to be doing a lot of 'sniping' during your career.
I think the key is to play such a character as an Arcane Trickster from level one up - not to play it as if it were one class or the other (which leads to those feelings of loss when you level up and multiclass, and pine for what you could have had as a single-classed whatever). I'd probably start with a level of Rogue - either vanilla, or Cutpurse (or maybe Chameleon or Charlatan from Ultimate Combat - although a Bluff specialist would be better combined with Sorcerer levels to max out the benefits of a high Charisma). Then I'd alternate with levels of Wizard (Admixture) until I qualified for Arcane Trickster.
The AT is better at spying and skulking than anybody. Sure, a rogue with a fortune in magic items can be invisible, fly, use gaseous form, etc., but that's expensive. An AT rog/wiz is good at all the important skills, due to a higher int than most rogues, and has lots of ways to pull off just about any heist he wants. Sneaking in, then teleporting out with the goods is a lot of fun.
Sure, a straight wizard can use the same spells, but that's all he's got. Sometimes, just walking in unnoticed and picking the lock from a distance saves you a lot of spell slots.
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No, a rogue 1 / wizard x is the best at spying, the AT gives you the silent/still 3 times a day @ 5, but a wand gives you the primary part of that for 3000 GP (or 7500 I believe to get 4-6 spells). Or just trait hide and perception as class skills and stay straight Mage; eventually you should have 8-9 skill points/lvl anyway. Meanwhile the wizard gets plenty of skill points, so really he only needs favored class and arguably trapfinding. The wizard/rogue was made to be a variant blaster with sneak attack spells, but with new rulings on scorching ray etc (1 sneak attack / spell) their damage lags a straight blaster in the best of circumstances.
They really just need a magus-type for rogue/mages since everyone loves the concept of this hybrid; believe me, I wish they were better too :).
but with new rulings on scorching ray etc (1 sneak attack / spell) their damage lags a straight blaster in the best of circumstances.
Proof or you're a sock puppet!
but with new rulings on scorching ray etc (1 sneak attack / spell) their damage lags a straight blaster in the best of circumstances.Proof or you're a sock puppet!
Not this again! :facepalm
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think he's referring to this (link)
New in this case meaning May.
What would you like me to prove? That sneak attack only works 1 per spell? Or that a straight blaster, at least at the levels I play (through 11, PFS) can outdamage an Arcane Trickster as a blaster master?
The part I quoted of course, but Dennis did your work for you. Though go ahead and do the straight blaster one that should be neat to see.
Yea, surprise spell is once per spell.
The regular rules of sneak attack apply to Scorching Ray though.
Thankfully, there's something stopping Surprise Spell from overriding the general rules of sneak attack and spells, and that's the word "can".
"Awesome, brought to you by the word "can"."
Now hmmm, Arcane Bomber wizard with levels in Ninja...
No, a rogue 1 / wizard x is the best at spying, the AT gives you the silent/still 3 times a day @ 5, but a wand gives you the primary part of that for 3000 GP (or 7500 I believe to get 4-6 spells).
And a trickster gets that for free. We can equip our rog 1/wiz x any number of ways, but the trickster gets the same treasure, and has mo better skill points. I agree with almost everybody who talks about it that the AT could be better, too. I'd start with rogue BAB and 6 skill pts/ level. This has been discussed to death, though.
That magus/rogue idea is intriguing.
Get rid of Spellstrike, and give Sneak Attack progression that raises every 3 levels.
It's balanced!
Kinda. Maybe give up Spell Recall too.
To the House Rules forums!
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I believe it is inevitable; too many love rogue/wizards for it NOT to happen. Probably summoner-style spell list, which is to say bard progression with certain "in flavor" spells (like Improved Invis) brought down so they get them at the same time as normal mages, and with cool unique tricks that revolve around being a deceptive Mage-type.
Paizo has proven Prestige Classes were a bad idea; hybrid base classes are the eave of the future :).
Paizo has proven Prestige Classes were a bad idea; hybrid base classes are the eave of the future :).
I dunno. I like having a choice. You can be a magus, or go EK and get 9th level spells. It just depends on what you want to do.
I'd think that Bard already does a pretty good job covering the Rogue/Wizard (or at least 'skill monkey / arcane caster') hybrid zone, especially with the variety of archetypes now available.
That's true. The AT is a similar sort of character, but it gets sneak attack and mo' better spells, at the cost of being frail as a wizard. If your campaign isn't going to 12+ levels, a straight bard is probably a better choice, since there really aren't any "levels of suck."
This is a quick summary of my current Arcane Trickster Build
Jimmy McPerson
Pyromaniac Gnome
Sorcerer7/Rogue3/Arcane Trickster 3
Str: 10
Dex: 16+2
Con: 14+2
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 14+4
BAB: 6/1
Base Saves: F3, R6, W7
Caster level: 10
Initiative: 10 (4 Dex, 2 Trait, 4 feat)
Feats:
LV1: Eschew Materials (Sorcerer bonus feat), Toughness
Lv3: Point-Blank Shot
Lv5: Precise Shot
Lv7: Combat Casting, bonus Feat: Empower Spell
Lv9: Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative as feat from combat Trick Rogue Talent
Lv11: Greater Spell Penetration
Lv13: Quicken Spell
I thought about getting Improved Initiative instead of Empower Spell as BL feat, and getting Weapon Finesse by selecting the Finesse Rogue combat trick, that was I can also use get touch spells to go off. I'm not sure if it's worth it though
Special:
Bloodline: Elemental (Primal) [Fire]
Sneak Attack 3d6
Evasion
Resist 10 Fire
Ranged Legerdemain
Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day
1/day can use produce flame as a spell like ability with caster level = total HD
Fire spells deal 1 point of extra damage per damage die rolled
Main Items:
Rod of Empower Spell, Rod of Elemental Spell (Cold), Rod of Extend Spell
Handy Haversack, Ring of Wizardry II, Belt of physical Might +2 (Dex/con), Headband of Alluring Charisma +4, bunch of alchemist fires.
Main Spells:
Scorching Ray, Vanish, Greater Invisibility, Ray of Enfeeblement
Skills:
Disable Device: +20 (+1 against traps)
Escape Artist: +11 (Only for the AT prereq)
Fly: +8 (+12 when casting Fly or Overland Flight)
Knowledge (Arcana): +9 (4 ranks, class skill, +2 from academician racial trait)
Perception: +18 (+1 for Traps)
Stealth: +24
UMD: +9
NOTES:
While invisible under Greater Invisibility, JM can catch opponents flat footed, denying them their dex and getting a +2 bonus. Using Scorching Ray, he also denies them any bonuses to AC due to Armor, shield, and nat armor. Thanks to point blank shot, he gets a +1 to attack rolls for being within 30', and an additional +1 for being small. If he chooses to use an alchemist's fire as a spell focus, he can get an additional +1.
Adding his Dex, his bonus to attack rolls with scorching ray is +15 vs an AC of 10+deflection bonuses-size mods. In other words, hitting on a 2.
Lower Level playstyle:
Cast Mage armor for buffing AC, use Elemental Rays to deal some damage, and Produce flame should you run out. At level 4, Scorching Ray becomes the main spell, scaling up with level for more damage. Invisibility later on becomes great for scouting. Always try to get opponent flatfooted as to be able to roll a 2 and hit.
During the sorcerer levels, you want to put skill ranks in whatever skills you want (2 in UMD for the +9, maybe some in stealth/perception, you don't get many ranks anyway) Once you hit the rogue levels, dump the ranks in everything you need for AT and Stealth/Perception
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I'd think that Bard already does a pretty good job covering the Rogue/Wizard (or at least 'skill monkey / arcane caster') hybrid zone, especially with the variety of archetypes now available.
Single class bards and alchemists both make very good equivalents to a rogue/ wizard hybrid, depending on what specific mix of abilities you want and character flavor you are looking for.
Technically, Sandman Bard 10 could qualify
was gonna say vivisectionist, but technically formulae aren't arcane spells.
I'd probably allow them to function as arcane spells for the purpose of qualifying for this class. An alchemist/arcane trickster could be interesting, and I don't think it'd be unbalanced.
was gonna say vivisectionist, but technically formulae aren't arcane spells.I'd probably allow them to function as arcane spells for the purpose of qualifying for this class. An alchemist/arcane trickster could be interesting, and I don't think it'd be unbalanced.
Especially since you can't mix the bombs with sneak attack damage.
Well, except for the fact that alchemists do not have have mage hand.
And that many of the abilities the arcane trickster gains would be absolutely useless to an alchemist.
Well, except for the fact that alchemists do not have have mage hand.
And that many of the abilities the arcane trickster gains would be absolutely useless to an alchemist.
...
*bonks Cheapy over the head with bottle*
Don't go bringing your sensible arguments into this.
im late to this party but foresight school is a must
Well, except for the fact that alchemists do not have have mage hand.
Two World Magic.
And before you say "Alchemist has no 0 level spells" it does say that you can have it as a 1st level spell if you don't have Cantrips/Orisons.
And that many of the abilities the arcane trickster gains would be absolutely useless to an alchemist.
Ehh, I dunno, if you were a Vivisectionist you'd be acting Rogue-ish anyway and would likely be a sneaky Device Disabler and such. Seems decent, and you could get in after a mere 4 levels of Alchemist (with 2 Discoveries!). Seems like it's definitely the "least painful" route.
...And I just realized this post is a year old.
=/
...And I just realized this post is a year old. =/
It's cool, necro posts on a RPG site are less trolled, since ideas come and go with trends.
Personally, I've always wanted to create an Arcane Trickster, and what sparked my interest most is using Magus to get there. That sounds like a VERY awesome way to go.
There doesn't happen to be a sneak attack archetype for Magus, does there? Or perhaps a 3PP I can browse for one?
I may have to create a second Magus Archetype for this purpose....
I seem to remember reading a great way to do Arcane Trickster, but it involved some guilds of golarion that bump up your caster level. I believe the end result was not losing any caster levels at all (or maybe it was just one) but I can't seem to find the post. Maybe someone with better knowledge than I can explain it.
I built this guy as a thought experiment, and really, I just couldn't get over how I felt like "How the hell would this guy survive low levels?"
If you go Wizard into Alchemist, you're level 4-6 with a whopping +1 to +3 BAB. You sure as hell ain't sneak attacking anything, and you give up your bombs, which normally would make it capable of holding its own. Sure, you've got a handful of extracts to buff with, and you're still technically a Wizard (with Magical Knack, you're only down a single Caster Level at level 6) but it just... doesn't really feel like it has the kind of oomph that my other low level characters seem to have. I can't say for sure that it'd be painful, just that it sounds like it'd be really tough going in the early levels.
Though if I started a game at level 7, I would totally play this character without a second thought!
At level 4-6 things have an Armor Class of what, 18-24? That's doable with a +3 BAB, some other bonuses, and a good sprinkle of luck.
Plus, if you're focusing on touch attack vectors for your spell transmission, that AC is more like 12-16. Very highly doable.
Wizard (Spellslinger)/Gunslinger (Ambusher) seems like it might be a pretty cool outside-the-box approach here for ranged touch attacks with sneak attack and spells.
Wouldn't the full BAB of Gunslinger help the poor low-level BAB progression?
Goblin spy on DMDM find out how he kill us!
PS as a follow up note, if that "rogue" class is a vivisectionist alchemist, you can even use that secondary benefit from Esoteric Training.
Isn't it a rather sore point whether Alchemist is truly a spellcasting class? The class description conflicts with itself in several places...
since it's come back up again I've done a guide that might be helpful to the new people around here: here