was gonna say vivisectionist, but technically formulae aren't arcane spells.
Bard 4 is an option. You have to wait longer, but have better combat options before.
How would witch do? There's some great flavour options there.
Depending on what you want out off it you could instead go for a sandman bard archetype.
If monstrous races are allowed a dark slayer (a CR 3, 4HD humanoid) isn't a bad option to get the 2d6 SA requirement.
Vivisectionist or ninja can get you 2d6 SA as well, both have some options to be a bit better at combat, though I think a vivisectionist reskinned can make a pretty decent AT in itself.
Magus might get you less spells but preserves some of your BAB at the early levels and is pretty good for purposes of action economy, the lower BAB and lesser spell progression will hurt a bit at the higher levels I think though.
Witch is an option but it's hexes are dependent on class level and it's spell list is a bit less inclined towards 'practical' magic.
I'd Suggest Magus 4/ Rog 3 (or vivisectionist 3)
at 3rd level take the wand arcana that lets you use wands as part of a spellstrike, then you can UMD to effectively grap other casting classes spells.
This is a lot better at combat than a Wizard/Rogue, but not so hot at the casting. Honestly, if your game goes to 10th level, don't go Arcane trickster, it is never really worth it, but at that level you still haven't really come into your own, you cast (at best even as a Wiz) at -3 levels, your sneak attack is crappy and you don't get much out of the prestige class in 4 levels. Just be a Alchemist(Vivisectionist) with UMD instead, trust me you'll be better off.
For those without moral qualms there is also Wiz4/Rog1/Ass1 if you want to just lose 2 levels of spellcasting instead of 3.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Vivisectionist/Wizard is a great suggestion, but I'd also call attention to Ninja/Sorcerer. You're one level behind, but it's not as bad as the bard.
These are probably the best ways in my opinion. The vivisectionist wizard route is particularly interesting.
Not sure ninjas would have enough ki to be really worth the effort of going with a cha based caster though.
I'll also add red mantis assassin to the list of viable options for a rogue type/caster character, it will not ever get better than 4th level spells but can be very viable for combat.
You could become a demoniac PRC (of Shax), it will give give you demonic boon 3 at level 9 demoniac (3d6 SA +2/die with slashing), alltogether you will be a 16th level character then, wizard 7/demoniac 9 with 3d6 SA and 15th lvl casting ability. You can still pick up to 4 levels of AT to up your SA.
What about a ninja 1/ vivisectionist 1/ wizard 3?
It actually says in the description of their sneak attack that a 1 rogue / 1 vivisectionist has 1d6 sneak attack. He would need another level of either to get 2d6.
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How would witch do? There's some great flavour options there.
No mage hand on the Witch spell list, I'm afraid, so not really a good choice for trying to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
But a Wizard 3 / Rogue 3 has a +3 BAB - which is as much as a straight Wizard 6, and only 1 point behind a straight Rogue 6 - so I don't think even the 'basic' combo is as painful as it possibly looks at first glance.
Sandman 10?
Or pure sandman. Give em ranged legerdemain, and you are good to go. They are a better arcane trickster, imo.
4 Bard (Sandman)/1 rogue
You can get into Arcane Trickster at level 6 this way, all though your base attack bonus will be laughable.
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How would witch do? There's some great flavour options there.No mage hand on the Witch spell list, I'm afraid, so not really a good choice for trying to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
But a Wizard 3 / Rogue 3 has a +3 BAB - which is as much as a straight Wizard 6, and only 1 point behind a straight Rogue 6 - so I don't think even the 'basic' combo is as painful as it possibly looks at first glance.
minor magic talent for mage hand plus witch maybe?
minor magic talent for mage hand plus witch maybe?How would witch do? There's some great flavour options there.No mage hand on the Witch spell list, I'm afraid, so not really a good choice for trying to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
But a Wizard 3 / Rogue 3 has a +3 BAB - which is as much as a straight Wizard 6, and only 1 point behind a straight Rogue 6 - so I don't think even the 'basic' combo is as painful as it possibly looks at first glance.
Murky waters, my friend.
Just take the Two-Worlds Magic trait to add Mage Hand to your spells.
It's a bit tricky to say which is the "least painful path" without knowing what your ultimate destination is: do you want to be mostly a spellcaster (in which case a low BAB is no problem), or mostly a sneaky guy (in which case less than full spellcasting is no problem)?
I've seen this done, and I think the answer is AVOID.
Level 10, where this exercise ends, is where Arcane Tricksters start to get interesting. You're going to play a character who is sub-par FOR THE ENTIRE CAMPAIGN, and then quit just when you catch up.
I really think the best answer here is either Sandman 10 or Wizard 10 with some of those skills invested in stealth and disable device.
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Don't believe me? Make the side by side comparison, level by level, including spells per day, BAB, HP, skills, and saves.
wiz 10
sandman bard 10
wiz 3/rog3/at 4
I actually recommend getting in some form or fashion the long limbs ability from the aberrant sorcerer. Having a reach of 20 feet with your touch spells means you can flank from a position other than within clobbering range.
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Don't believe me? Make the side by side comparison, level by level, including spells per day, BAB, HP, skills, and saves.
wiz 10:
Caster level 10
5th level spells
+5 BAB
Average base Hit Points 37
Base Skill points 20
Base Saves - Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7
bard 10:
Caster level 10
4th level spells
+7/+2 BAB
Average base Hit Points 48
Base Skill points 60
Base Saves - Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +7
wiz 3/rog3/at 4:
Caster level 7
4th level spells
+5 BAB
Average base Hit Points 41
Base Skill points 46
Base Saves - Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +6
... Doesn't look that bad, to be honest. Saves, Skill Points, and Hit Points are all between the Wizard and the Bard. Caster level is lower, but one can probably assume the Magical Knack trait to boost that to an effective CL 9. Spell level is as good as the Bard (and set to overtake the Bard as they head up the levels... if the campaign was going higher). BAB is as good as the Wizard (which I realise is no claim to fame...). If we're assuming a Sandman Bard, then the Arcane Trickster has better Sneak Attack (3d6 Vs the Bard's 2d6) - and a Ray of Frost to use it with all day long...
... If you can swing the eclectic training thing from being in a magical guild, then the Arcane Trickster can hit CL 10 as well (but I wouldn't rely on this in most campaigns...).
I guess it depends on what you're aiming for, but this doesn't look underpowered to me. YMMV.
Keep in mind that the bard spell list has some hidden bonuses. For example, Fear is a level lower for bards, which means that bards and wizards get it at seventh level, sorcerors at 8th, and arcane tricksters at 10th.
Likewise, bards cast in light armor, and the wizard has got the slots to cast mage armor. Arcane Trickster? Options are worse.
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More important is -getting- to 10th level. When you make the comparisons at first level, second level, etc, the AT has some BIG problems. Compare at 5th level, if you don't believe me.
Many of those are starting to go away by 10th level, and after 10th level, arcane trickster is a lot of fun.
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And for better sneak attack, that's an extra 3.5 points of damage. Think about who your 10th level opponents are. That's not going to be a game-breaker against the minotaur barbarian horde, for example.
The key is what are you delivering your sneak attack with? Touch attacks.
You don't need amazing BAB at that point. Honestly all you need is a means of getting out every last point of damage you can for your one attack a round.
Having the Orc bloodline will help with this -- it adds a point of damage per dice. So having an intensified shocking grasp that is also a sneak attack at say level 10 would be in the range of 15d6+15 damage for a touch attack... which is to say an average of 67.5 points of damage at level 10. Now of course that's using up a second level spell slot but it is possible to get out nice damage with the arcane trickster.
Now of course we can do better, I'm just pointing out a starting point for reaching for more.
The best way to do it.
Wizard XX / Rogue 2 ( Just so you have evasion.)
AT is a trap PrC. When you compare there ability's to wizard XX/Rogue 2.
What a load of nonsense.
The standard 3/3 build is probably the least painful honestly. That said, expect pain. I tried to go this route with my last character when the party needed a skill monkey but I didn't want to play a straight rogue. Character is now rogue1/wizard12. Every time I leveled up I just couldn't justify taking that next level of rogue, until it became entirely pointless. Really all you need as a wizard to be an arcane trickster are the class skills and trapfinding, especially if you go human for the extra skill point. At this point I've got 11 skill points a level as a wizard, which is generally enough to cover my rogue bases and most of my wizard stuff. While a couple more would be nice, they aren't really worth losing a huge percentage of your higher level spells and delaying your advancement any further in my opinion.
Sneak attack tends to be overrated and situational, even with invisibility in the mix, and that even sets aside the fact that direct damage is often not ideal. Spending an action to get that invisibility costs more your damage in terms of the lost action than it will gain you in the vast majority of combats, even with greater invis.
Some of the AT bonuses, like free still/silent X times per day, or free action invisibility are nice, but they aren't nicer than two more levels of spellcasting and at least 3 levels of pain most of the time.
My two cents.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The best way to do it.
Wizard XX / Rogue 2 ( Just so you have evasion.)
AT is a trap PrC. When you compare there ability's to wizard XX/Rogue 2.
This doesn't make any sense. Once you've lost two caster levels, you are already 2/3 the way through the pain and you might as well lump it out to the finish.
I can see the argument for straight wizard or sorcerer who specializes in stealth but your suggestion doesn't make any sense, it has most of the disadvantages of arcane trickster and none of the advantages.
I've played an arcane trickster up to 16th-level. One of the better characters I've ever played. There were SO MANY opportunities for creativity. Makes me crazy seeing people say "they suck" all the time.
She eventually became a diviner 4/rogue 1/assassin 1/arcane trickster 10--a mage assassin who specialized in rods which she created herself.
Few things could stand up for long against her one two combo of quickened cone of cold and maximized cone of cold along with both spells getting +7d6 sneak attack damage.
She excelled at getting in the right position and using the situation to her best advantage. Also had a number of dastardly tricks up her sleeve, such as a glove poisoned with black lotus extract (each finger tip containing a single dose) that absolutely murdered anyone she shook hands with.
She would also use illusions and trickery to great effect. She lured more than one hapless victim into her mage's magnificent mansion--a dungeon of horror and traps that only she knew how to navigate.
Her magical divination spells and other arcana turned her into a master thief as well: able to find lost treasure wherever it lay; bypass all the guards, wards, and monsters protecting it; and to hold on to it afterwards (protecting it with her own wards and protections such as sequester).
She could speak nearly any language fluently, look like whoever she wanted, and...and..
...well, I think you get the idea.
Few people complain about AT sucking at 16th level, it's character levels ~5-9 that are painful. If you can jump right past that the class is pretty decent.
Personally, I didn't really find the progression terribly painful at all.
Few people complain about AT sucking at 16th level, it's character levels ~5-9 that are painful. If you can jump right past that the class is pretty decent.Personally, I didn't really find the progression terribly painful at all.
I think it all comes down to how you go about it. Personally I kind of prefer sorcerer for going into arcane trickster. 4 levels of sorcerer goes down pretty easy to start with, and hitting a level of rogue followed by one of something else with sneak attack means the pain is less than it could be.
Again I like the orc bloodline for this, as well as taking the eldritch heritage feats for the third level aberrant bloodline power (not that I really like the ray but got to take it if you want those long limbs). Heck I would really consider taking the rest of the eldritch heritage feats for the spell resistance and fortification abilities. The first level power of the orc bloodline is spell like which means you can look to quicken spell like ability for it and robes of arcane heritage helps the bonus last longer too (not to mention opens up the inherent bonus to strength as well as knocking out the light sensitivity). Honestly I would consider the ebon eyes spell blight for such a character as well (since it inverses the problems with light and dark its almost more of a boon for this character instead of a blight).
You can do Sorcerer6/ Rog 1/ Master Spy 1. It's not the fastest way in, but its only two caster levels dropped and you don't have to be evil. Though... it requires Deceitful and Iron Will, neither of which are particularly exciting for a Trickster.
Certainly an option -- Iron will hurts less if you did a cross blooded sorcerer... doing so as a half orc could allow you to focus in on fire spells specifically (as much as fire isn't the ideal element) to get lots of bonus damage added to the spells.
Yeah, I like Master Spy in a lot of ways but it's a bit of a throwback to the days where prestige classes required gobs of oddball feats and skills to get into.
I think the feat requirements for master spy make sense though I have a hard time justifying it for a level dip.
Human - 3rd Wizard (Elemental/Metal)/3rd Rogue (Sniper) -> 4th Arcane Trickster
Feat progression;
Weapon Focus (Crossbow) 1st
Point Blank Shot 1st
Precise Shot 3rd
Rogue Talent - Combat Trick - Arcane Strike 4th
Focussed Shot (add INT bonus to crossbow damage) 6th
Rapid Reload 9th
Good Spells
1st - Gravity Bow (Light Crossbow does 2d6 damage), Magic Weapon
2nd - Glitterdust and/or Blindness (to have sneak attacks in follow-on rounds)
3rd - Magic Weapon (Greater), Flame Arrow, Versatile Weapon, Mad Monkeys (don't underestimate this one ;))
4th - Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, Overwhelming Grief, Symbol of Slowing, Terrible Remorse
I don't think this is weak - with intelligent spell choices and use, it is quite viable and of course starts to really get there at 8th+ with third level spells. At 10th it's very verstaile and quite nasty.
Another one a player of mine came to the table with;
3rd Human Sorcerer (Protean)/3rd Rogue (Standard)
1st level protean power - ectoplasm (acid damage tanglefoot bag)
Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Precise Shot
3rd - Rogue - Bleeding Attack
3rd - Deadly Aim
6th - Weapon Focus - Rays
9th - Spell Focus - Conjuration
He was a fun character and a pain in the ass to boot.
Another one a player of mine came to the table with;
3rd Human Sorcerer (Protean)/3rd Rogue (Standard)
1st level protean power - ectoplasm (acid damage tanglefoot bag)
Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Precise Shot
3rd - Rogue - Bleeding Attack
3rd - Deadly Aim
6th - Weapon Focus - Rays
9th - Spell Focus - ConjurationHe was a fun character and a pain in the ass to boot.
Except you have to have 4 levels of sorcerer to qualify as an Arcane trickster, but I like the idea.
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The biggest issue is how much better of an arcane trickster a mono-Vivisector is. Both have spells and sneak attack, both tend to focus on buffs. But vivi has full 3/4 progression, more hp, powerful tricks (throw up the potion is amazing, especially in PFS). So it pretty much cancelled the idea of the AT, and unlike the AT doesn't have those "levels of suck".
The biggest issue is how much better of an arcane trickster a mono-Vivisector is. Both have spells and sneak attack, both tend to focus on buffs. But vivi has full 3/4 progression, more hp, powerful tricks (throw up the potion is amazing, especially in PFS). So it pretty much cancelled the idea of the AT, and unlike the AT doesn't have those "levels of suck".
Unless of course you don't want to simply be a buffing rogue and instead want to cast spells.