Heavy shield = 1d4
Spiked = -> 1d6
Bashing = -> 1d8 -> 2d6
Not sure where you got 2d8 from.
Spiked Heavy Shield does 1d4 for a small shield and 1d6 for a medium shield. There is no change to the amount of damage done with a shield bash. Please refer to page 152 in Core Rulebook for information on damage.
EDIT: Exactly where do you find the Bashing property?
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So really, all he said was that it was not the intent and it would deal more damage, he didnt not state what it did. So I am not seeing the point of the above post.
Also lets not get into RAW V RAI.
Your double negative confuses me. Grammar first, then argue.
He said they didn't intend for it to be that way and it shouldn't be read the way the OP posted it. Stacking the way the OP stated makes that the most powerful 1 handed weapon in the game.
The point of my post was to inform. If you don't like it suck it up and keep your snive comments to yourself.
Unfortunately this is EXACTLY where RAW v RAI comes into play. Its the same as the argument that a lance used on horseback is still a 2 handed weapon for the benefits of power attack...it was written one way but its not how they intended the rulings to work.
Is it just me, or would Lead Blades stack with all of the above?
Arguably spiked shield, heavy, is not the same weapon listing as heavy shield.
Dunno how well this is supported by RAW-lawyering, but sounds like a neat idea. I'll borrow that one.
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So really, all he said was that it was not the intent and it would deal more damage, he didnt not state what it did. So I am not seeing the point of the above post.
Also lets not get into RAW V RAI.
Your double negative confuses me. Grammar first, then argue.
He said they didn't intend for it to be that way and it shouldn't be read the way the OP posted it. Stacking the way the OP stated makes that the most powerful 1 handed weapon in the game.
The point of my post was to inform. If you don't like it suck it up and keep your snive comments to yourself.
Unfortunately this is EXACTLY where RAW v RAI comes into play. Its the same as the argument that a lance used on horseback is still a 2 handed weapon for the benefits of power attack...it was written one way but its not how they intended the rulings to work.
edited for grammer thanks for pointing it out. I did not intend for it to come across as snide, I was simply asking the point of the post, as I have seen several other comments from JJ that are much more direct while this was not.
As for RAW V RAI, agree to disagree and all that as no one ever changes thier mindset on that paticular point.
Have a good one
-Jace
The point being, technically they stack but they didn't intend for that to happen and overlooked shield spikes.
Its going to come down to whether the DM accepts that they overlooked something and allow one or the other, or take it as written and allow the stacking.
The danger of allowing them to stack is the fact that this makes it the highest 1 handed weapon damage in the game that gets calculated on a crit. Where as your flaming, frost or corrosive dice wouldn't get calculated into a crit you'd be looking at a much more dangerous weapon than is available anywhere else.
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You could make the argument but it is not really written as a weapon listing, as the weapon listing is,
Shield, light and Spiked shield, light etc, not the "Only light and heavy shields can have this ability." As such even by strict RAW, standards since it is not formated like a weapon listing it is only a classification ( presuming to limit it from bucklers and tower shields).
Osian, is it really that much more dangours? It does only crit on a 20 so 5%, as opposed to one of the high crit range weapons. Also for this set up to work you have to have an inordinate amount of feats for it to work, out well.
I have a level 6 Phalanx Fighter...trust me it can be dangerous, and doesn't take that many feats (like 3). You can always add Keen or Improved Crit too. It wasn't the developer's intent to make your offhand weapon more dangerous than your main hand. The high crit weapons don't carry high damage.
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Light, Bashing spiked : 1d8. (1d3->1d4 ->1d6->1d8)
Heavy, Bashing spiked : 2d6. (1d4->1d6 ->1d8->2d6)Since the heavy shield is usually the off-hand weapon, this isn't so big a problem since you have to invest in money and feats to make the damage just relevant.
True, you will have to have TWF and mostlikly ITWF, just to make it realavent. Thus you will not be able to max STR because you are now much more MAD.
Str-16
Dex-16Con-14
Wis-10
Int-13
Cha-7
Put +2 for human in Str and at 4th put 1 in Dex. Then go with Str after that. Having Dex is hardly bad as a fighter in mithril full plate its perfect.
I dont understand the concern about this, its not the most powerful option in the game, just because it can become powerful if you build your character for it doesnt mean it needs to be nurfed or house ruled to be weaker.
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I dont understand the concern about this, its not the most powerful option in the game, just because it can become powerful if you build your character for it doesnt mean it needs to be nurfed or house ruled to be weaker.
As I said before...as written it exists, but that isn't the way it was intended per my earlier link.
Its just like using a lance 1 handed on horseback but still getting the extra 50% damage from power attack just because its a 2 handed weapon not because you are using it with 2 hands.
Written one way...intended another.
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Its just like using a lance 1 handed on horseback but still getting the extra 50% damage from power attack just because its a 2 handed weapon not because you are using it with 2 hands.
Written one way...intended another.
I don't see the comparison, actually.
You are clearly using the lance as a one-handed weapon, so you follow the rules of a one-handed weapon. No ambiguity in the writting.|
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I don't see the comparison, actually.
You are clearly using the lance as a one-handed weapon, so you follow the rules of a one-handed weapon. No ambiguity in the writting.
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.
When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
As seen in RAW it says 2 handed weapon. Does NOT say a 2 handed weapon wielded with 2 hands. In the case of my example you are using a 2 handed weapon just one with special rules that allows you to use it with one hand. But that is off topic and again ruled by James Jacobs.
+1 I just dont really see the problem, yes it is powerful but its not broken, so we let a martial class deal damage with a different weapon listing besides a great sword or a flachion, where is the harm?
I didn't say it caused harm or broke the game. I was simply telling you what was said...it was not how the rule was intended and simply over looked. I don't care if you make a character that ONLY uses shields as weapons...not my game...don't care.
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The point being, technically they stack but they didn't intend for that to happen and overlooked shield spikes.Its going to come down to whether the DM accepts that they overlooked something and allow one or the other, or take it as written and allow the stacking.
The danger of allowing them to stack is the fact that this makes it the highest 1 handed weapon damage in the game that gets calculated on a crit. Where as your flaming, frost or corrosive dice wouldn't get calculated into a crit you'd be looking at a much more dangerous weapon than is available anywhere else.
I see it as balanced as using a Bastard Sword one handed; it's only 1d10 damage, but it crits twice as often. The bastard sword does require a feat to use it 1H, but same could be said for the feats to make the shield as viable (TWF for Double Slice for the full Str mod to damage).
I'm sure this is an easy question to have answered by a Paizo developer then corrected officially in the next errata to have the shield spikes NOT double with the Bashing property if that's how they feel it should be.
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As seen in RAW it says 2 handed weapon. Does NOT say a 2 handed weapon wielded with 2 hands. In the case of my example you are using a 2 handed weapon just one with special rules that allows you to use it with one hand. But that is off topic and again ruled by James Jacobs.
Please. Exceptions supercede global rules. It is clearly written that you use the weapon one-handed ; and you are in no way wielding it with two hands.
No one would do this mistake honestly when asked to focus on this rule and think about it, except by forgetting to change the damage during game because the player is used to calculate two-handed damage.|
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As seen in RAW it says 2 handed weapon. Does NOT say a 2 handed weapon wielded with 2 hands. In the case of my example you are using a 2 handed weapon just one with special rules that allows you to use it with one hand. But that is off topic and again ruled by James Jacobs.Please. Exceptions supercede global rules. It is clearly written that you use the weapon one-handed ; and you are in no way wielding it with two hands.
No one would do this mistake honestly when asked to focus on this rule and think about it, except by forgetting to change the damage during game because the player is used to calculate two-handed damage.
See, one would assume that, but its a question that has come up many times because of conflicting wording in the book.
Light, Bashing spiked : 1d8. (1d3->1d4 ->1d6->1d8)
Heavy, Bashing spiked : 2d6. (1d4->1d6 ->1d8->2d6)Since the heavy shield is usually the off-hand weapon, this isn't so big a problem since you have to invest in money and feats to make the damage just relevant.
True, you will have to have TWF and mostlikly ITWF, just to make it realavent. Thus you will not be able to max STR because you are now much more MAD.
Note Max said usually. It's been clarified here on the boards that you CAN main-hand a shield.
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Hmm main hand a shield, then off hand a shield, shield master works with both, 2d6 damage in both hands with no penalties. A free bull rush with every hit because of shield slam. So at lvl 11 that is 5 attacks, with 5 bullrushes aroundd on a full attak.
Plese please please tell me that works. lol
It would work at our table.
You would just have to deal with us laughing and taunting you during hours for fighting with two shields and calling you a turtle, despite you having sucked at life during the first 11 levels. And I can be really annoying when I want it.|
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I have a level 6 Shielded Fighter in my campaign that's doing the 'turtle' thing after his bad luck rolling with his sword and better luck with his shields. He now has TWF, Double Slice, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, Weapon Focus: Shield Bash, Weapon Spec Shield Bash right now and he's loving it. The pair of shields is mostly for decoration since I'm not doubling his shield bonus for using 2 and he retains his Shield bonus to AC after Shield Slamming anyway, but he enjoys bashing through wooden doors with his shields to protect him with the rest of the party following right behind.
He then also wants to get Throw Anything so he can start Captain America-ing monsters. I feel that I may have to give him a Returning Throwing shield for his off-hand weapon one day just to see the smile on his face :P
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See, one would assume that, but its a question that has come up many times because of conflicting wording in the book.As seen in RAW it says 2 handed weapon. Does NOT say a 2 handed weapon wielded with 2 hands. In the case of my example you are using a 2 handed weapon just one with special rules that allows you to use it with one hand. But that is off topic and again ruled by James Jacobs.Please. Exceptions supercede global rules. It is clearly written that you use the weapon one-handed ; and you are in no way wielding it with two hands.
No one would do this mistake honestly when asked to focus on this rule and think about it, except by forgetting to change the damage during game because the player is used to calculate two-handed damage.Weird that the opposite question doesn't come up more often then huh... Don't I only get 1 handed str bonus to damage when wielding a bastard sword 2handed? It is listed as a 1 handed exotic weapon after all. /sarcasm..
While true...its only 1H if you have the feat. Otherwise it is a 2H weapon technically. But I see what you did there. =b
Actually, it is technically a 1 handed exotic weapon with a special quality that allows it to be used as a 2 handed martial weapon, as it is listed under exotic: 1 handed on the weapon table.
Actually it is a two-handed weapon that allows you to use it one-handed if you take a certain feat since it only becomes one handed with the feat.
An example is the Sawtooth Sabre which only becomes a light weapon with a certain feat, but otherwise is a one-handed weapon.
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As a standard weapon (i.e Martial) the Bastard sword can be used as a 2h
As a special weapon (i.e Exotic) it can be used with 1h.
The wording highlighted in the above post proves nothing about what the weapon should be, merely that without the feat the weapon is functional without penalty when 2h.
If you need to get an uncommon feat to use a weapon 1h which is otherwise 2h, then logic tells you the weapon is by default 2h.
In fact, really the Bastard Sword should show up in both 1h and 2h tables as it should be more obvious to people that it is usable without a feat.
Based on the lance dilema, if playing that game my arguement would be that as the Bastard Sword is in my opinion naturally a 2h weapon (The text does not discredit my opinion, thought the table technically does), the Bastard sword should give you 2h Power attack even when wielded with 1h (just think, it would actually be worth using a feat for at last!)
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Anyway, regarding shield bash. I would have no issue with Bashing and spikes stacking simply because I don't consider 2d6 all that awesome. Time and time again the number crunchers point out how insignificant die damage is as it's all about bonuses and crit.
So, main hand choice between 18-20 1d8 crit or 2d6 20 crit to me is a no brainer (especially when Improved crit is included)
Then again, for off hand I have traded in 18-20 crit for an increase of 4.5 average damage, this is certainly a lot more of an impressive gain so I can see where they may be issues