Does pounce allow a creature to make his true Full attack at the end or only allow the use of one attack with each weapon regardless of BAB.
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If this slides the right way, AMY might beat AM.
The student shall become the master.
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Relevant rules text:
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack
makes a charge, it can make a full
attack (including rake attacks if the
creature also has the rake ability).
Format : pounce; Location: Special
Attacks.
Don't see why you couldn't full attack, personally.
If this slides the right way, AMY might beat AM.
The student shall become the master.
BARBARIAN JUST CHANGE TACTICS. SPIRITED CHARGE CLAW ON DIVE AM STILL X3 DAMAGE.
BARBARIAN JUST CHANGE TACTICS. SPIRITED CHARGE CLAW ON DIVE AM STILL X3 DAMAGE.If this slides the right way, AMY might beat AM.
The student shall become the master.
TRUE BUT UPDATED SNEAKTWOWEAPONPOUNCE HARD TO FIND NEW WAY TO DEAL DAMAGE TO CASTY.
TRUE BUT UPDATED SNEAKTWOWEAPONPOUNCE HARD TO FIND NEW WAY TO DEAL DAMAGE TO CASTY.BARBARIAN JUST CHANGE TACTICS. SPIRITED CHARGE CLAW ON DIVE AM STILL X3 DAMAGE.If this slides the right way, AMY might beat AM.
The student shall become the master.
DUALLANCEPOUNCE AM JUST UNNECESSARY ANYWAYS.
AM HAVING TO RELY ON SNEAK ATTACK DAMAGE TO HELP OVERCOME LACK OF BARBARIAN AWESOME.
Back to the original question?
Back to the original question?
yeah the main issue is the uniform stat blocks which only list pounce and list a full attack most creatures don't even take thier naturals with their full weapons even if they can so there is no way of knowing what a pounce gives from stat blocks.
Personally, I don't see why a full attack would be a full attack in every single case 'full attack' is mentioned throughout all of Pathfinder rules except this one specific case.
But ehh. That's me.
Does pounce allow a creature to make his true Full attack at the end or only allow the use of one attack with each weapon regardless of BAB.
Read James Jacobs thread, I am interpreting it like this:
Natural attacks occur more or less at the same time, it is one attack with each limb, therefore a Pounce is possible.
Iterative attacks do not.
Hence, if a creature (Eidolon for example) is using Multiweapon Fighting having 3 ore more arms with weapons, it still works, since it is one attack with each limb. A TWF first attack would work for the same reason, both hands once.
Sounds reasonable?
While it does sound reasonable the rules still only state a full attack which is my extra attacks. A full weapon attack takes no longer than a full natural weapon attack in game time.
While it does sound reasonable the rules still only state a full attack which is my extra attacks. A full weapon attack takes no longer than a full natural weapon attack in game time.
Beast totem barbarians don't look nearly as interesting if that bs ever gets official.
Care to be more specific Meatrace?
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I've been allowing pounce with full attack. That's how the rule works absent any other guidance. I don't like it, but I allow it.
I don't like it becauase it makes the barbarian far nastier than every other physical damage dealer in the game including enemy monsters, but Paizo obviously wants the barbarian to be the king of phiscal damage dealers. They have to know how the rules work and they've basically given one class the saves of a paladin, the ability to do what a lvl 20 mobility fighter does at lvl 10, and a far superior ability to a lvl 19 two-weapon fighter at lvl 12. With Raging Brutality, they basically gave away the Cavalier and Samurai challenge for 3 rounds of rage.
I'm wondering if they'll ever tone this stuff down so DMs aren't dealing with the nightmare base build:
Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian
Supterstition with human bonus
Beast Totem Line
Come and Get Me
Strength Surge
Raging Brutality Feat
Witchhunter
Spell Sunder
More hit points than any class in the game
Higher DR than any other class in the game.
Which basically turns every other physical damage dealer except perhaps the archer (which at least gets to attack from range for huge damage) into the barbarian's sidekick. Pretty lame that one physical damage dealer class is so far above all others that when one is in the group the others feel marginalized.
Also a DM nightmare to counter. The above barbarian build makes it so the DM has to use cheese to counter it if they want to challenge the group. Not quite sure why the Paizo game designers decided to allow this extremely overpowered combination, but I seriously doubt they tested it well before releasing it. I wish there was a munchkin player at Paizo that played this build over and over again just to make sure they all know how much trouble this build is for DMs.
I have one player that is playing this combination twice because it is so powerful as a build that nothing else he can make save for a high level caster can challenge the power of the build. It has few weaknesses. And most of the weaknesses are not able to be countered by 90% of the monsters the barbarian faces.
The sad thing about this barbarian build is that this is exactly the kind of power creep with classes that turns DMs off to running the game and slowly leads to the destruction of their own market. Right now certain overpowered spells and this barbarian combination is making my life as a DM rough because it puts me at odds with my own player and makes challenging said player nigh impossible without using cheesy tactics. I wish Paizo would reign this kind of stuff in and take some time to think as a DM when making design decisions. It's pretty obvious in the case of barbarian synergistic combinations and certain wizard spells like prediction of failure, energy drain, and maze, they weren't thinking of DMs at all.
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The very word itself means a leaping attack. We're talking about creatures that have multiple limbs here. They jump onto their opponent, freeing all their limbs for making one attack each. This is not freeing someone to make a jump and make every single iterative attack possible, that is well outside the bounds of how this ability works for every creature that has it ( to best of my knowledge).
If you're wielding two weapons,then pounce lets you make an attack with each of them after a move, that seems fine by the rules and how it works for other creatures.
Assuming a pc has an ability that gives it multiple natural weapons ( like bite and claw attacks for instance) then pounce would suit them as well.
I guess the difficulty then falls if monks get this ability,sine technically they use all their limbs in natural attacks.
I've yet to see pounce used anywhere to let something make a move or charge and unleash all it's iterative attacks. That is why they created the vital strike line of feats.
AM Barbarian is a great thought process, but this starting to stretch rules lawyering a little too far in my opinion.
Cheers
There are no creatures who have listed what attacks they use on a pounce it states a full attack you can then look a their attack lines and see what that option is.
Also going by stat blocks no creature in the game that i could find attacks with both manufactured and natural attacks according to the stat blocks they say or but we know you can do that.
There are no creatures who have listed what attacks they use on aAlso going by stat blocks no creature in the game that i could find attacks with both manufactured and natural attacks according to the stat blocks they say or but we know you can do that.
Several Bestiary statblocks include both manufactured weapons and natural attacks during the same full attack routine. From a (very) quick look:
Archon, Hound: mwk greatsword +9/+4, bite +3
Azata, Lillend: +1 longsword +12/+7, tail slap +6
Demon, Babau: longspear +12/+7, bite +7
(many of the creatures that are listed with both manufactured weapons and natural attacks use the same limbs for both types of attacks, and can thus not use them together; perhaps those are the ones you noticed?)
***
In any case, back to the topic at hand:
The pounce special ability allows a full attack. It doesn't say "full attack with natural attacks", so it allows a full attack with all weapons. Of course, most creatures that have pounce only have natural attacks, so until the printing of greater beast totem this would have been a non-issue.
If a developer feels it's too powerful for a PC to get a pounce full attack with all iterative attacks, then they should errata the option that grants pounce to a PC (greater beast totem), rather than the pounce ability itself.
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the only problem is that pounce (AFAIK) is only defined in the Bestiary and whoever wrote it was thinking about its use by monster, not about what player characters should and would do with it.
Personally I don't like the image of a guy "pouncing" and using multiple iterative attacks, while I haven't problems with him pouncing and using two weapon fighting, but RAW he is fully entitled in doing that.
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I do not see how it could be made any more clear.
There is literally zero support for limiting the full attack. The only note is an addition of even more attacks than a regular full attack.
Of course it is too powerful for PCs. It was a stupid decision to make it accessible.
Because RAGELANCEPOUNCE isn't silly and cheesy at all, yeah, let's all follow the RAW like good little sheeps.
Pounce being restricted to one attack/limb is both more respectuous of the original intent of the ability, and way more balanced than the use people are able to make of it right now. I don't think the barbarian will cry on his poor treatment, since he got free claws to get pounce and can even get a bite and a gore attack without even being hasted for 4 attacks at the end of any charge.
Until james' throwaway comment becomes a official errata by RAW pounce still works as it says it does.
Personally? I think having pounce allowing you to make one attack per limb is both more balanced, and thematically more appealing.
And as I've already stated, this does not make the beast totem line "useless". It would still be one of the stronger rage powers, just minimise it's capability too be cheesed.
However, my first line still stands.
Trikk, Iterative attacks are most defiantly separate strikes, unless you want to start making it so on hit effects only apply once per weapon used, I understand your point but that's bringing fluff into a rules debate.
RAI doesn't work if you have literally nothing to base that I on.Because JJ's comments have nothing to do with RAI?
My personal rule, which has worked quite well, is that if JJ speaks of the design intent, then that's good evidence towards RAI.
If he doesn't explicitly mention that, I just see it as his interpretation as a GM, not as a paizo employee.
He doesn't mention that in the post linked, so I'm just viewing it as a quirky GM ruling.
In any case, it doesn't hurt to FAQ.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Does pounce allow a creature to make his true Full attack at the end or only allow the use of one attack with each weapon regardless of BAB.
I think RAW allows iteratives on a pounce. That having been said, this is totally houseruled away in my games. The logic being this: the idea of why there are no full attacks with movement is that moving takes time, additional attacks take time, so if you move, there is no time left to make multiple attacks. Pounce gets around this by making all the attacks at once, conceptually the cat (or whatever) is leaping at the foe to bring all the legs and bite to bear simultaneously. So a creature or character fighting with multiple weapons or natural attacks could get one each with pounce. I'd probably allow an extra haste attack as well, I'm okay with that conceptually. I just don't see how leaping at the foe allows you to swing the same axe or lance or whatever repeatedly faster.
So a pouncing barbarian TWFing with Toothy can get two weapon attacks and a bite. A pouncing eidolon with 10 arms each holding a weapon can be a whirlwind of death. A pouncing barbarian using just a lance is out of luck with my house rules. I just can't conceptually see how it could even work.
AM aside a beast morph alchemist can get pounce at level 10 with no natural attacks. So yes a change can limit a class.
You've never seen the Samurai films where the guy charges an enemy, and lands with the enemy falling into multiple pieces? That's a single weapon pounce and it's an awesome literary trope in my mind.This is probably better called "anime".
Doesn't make it any less awesome.
But it also doesn't have a darn thing to do with the topic.
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RAW: any full attack is possible with pounce
RAI: most likely meant to imitate a big cat jumping on you with all four claws and biting you, no iteration at all.
Likelihood that a developer will weigh in on a rules topic inspired by AM's build: 13.7%
RAW: any full attack is possible with pounce
RAI: most likely meant to imitate a big cat jumping on you with all four claws and biting you, no iteration at all.
Likelihood that a developer will weigh in on a rules topic inspired by AM's build: 13.7%
Out of curiosity, what leads you to believe that the RAW is not RAI as well?
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Out of curiosity, what leads you to believe that the RAW is not RAI as well?RAW: any full attack is possible with pounce
RAI: most likely meant to imitate a big cat jumping on you with all four claws and biting you, no iteration at all.
Likelihood that a developer will weigh in on a rules topic inspired by AM's build: 13.7%
Most of all, the image in my head when I picture a "pounce". Words are important. You wouldn't call a spell fireball if it produced water in the shape of a giraffe. You would call it water giraffe. "Pounce" doesn't describe a person walking forward and then taking four swings with a sword.
Additionally, consider this odd conundrum. This is applying fluff to rules logic which I don't much care for, but since it was asked, I will oblige with a full response:
Take a big cat. Said big cat can walk toward you and swipe at you with its claw or bite you. Big kitty can also walk quicker at you (in a straight line, no less), implied jump at you, and hit you with four claws and a bite to your face. This sounds like a "pounce" to me.
Now consider a human. He carries a club. He can walk toward you and hit you with the club. He can also walk quicker at you (in a straight line, no less), implied jump at you...maybe, and hit you with his club. Then he hits you with his club three more times. Somehow, these hits also carry the same benefit of him charging at you despite that he has most certainly stopped moving by the time his second blow hits. This doesn't sound at all like a "pounce" and further doesn't seem to make much sense.
Now consider a half-orc. He has two vestigial tentacles, two claws, and has big pointy teeth. He can walk toward you and hit you with a claw. He can also walk quicker at you (in a straight line, no less), implied jump at you, and hit you with his two claws, his two tentacles, and bite you in the face. This sounds like a "pounce" to me.
All three scenarios are possible by RAW. I believe only two are intended to be possible.
I could see that, yea.
Has no one in this thread ever played a Soul Calibur game?
Care to be more specific Meatrace?
OK. I'll spell it out.
Beat Totem Rage powers eventually allow the Barbarian to pounce while raging.
They also give him claw attacks at a lower level.
Because natural weapons are more expensive to enchant, the claws do low base damage, only get +Str to damage, and don't get a favorable Power Attack ratio, it is still more efficient to use a 2H weapon and fall back on your claws in a pinch.
If, at level 10 when you get pounce you are only allowed to pounce with your far, far inferior natural attacks gained while raging, the beast totem rage powers are less enticing of a rage power tree than originally hoped.
Thus, if it is ruled that pounce only works with natural weapons, Beast Totem rage powers go from being the best Barbarian build to something of a curiosity. And the Barbarian goes back to being the red-headed stepchild of warrior classes.
I thought the restriction was on natural weapons for the barbarian. The book is not in front of me at the moment.
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After checking the website I see I was wrong. My players are going to cry. :)
Thus, if it is ruled that pounce only works with natural weapons, Beast Totem rage powers go from being the best Barbarian build to something of a curiosity. And the Barbarian goes back to being the red-headed stepchild of warrior classes.
I think a barbarian would still be awesome without pounce, but this isn't helping the OP.
What about 3.5 edition? Was this concern ever clairified in the 3.5 FAQ? I recall it being allowed....
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Thus, if it is ruled that pounce only works with natural weapons, Beast Totem rage powers go from being the best Barbarian build to something of a curiosity. And the Barbarian goes back to being the red-headed stepchild of warrior classes.
Except it's really easy to build a barbarian with at least 4 natural attacks (and even an option to include a nasty poison) on a pounce before any haste involved. A half-orc can attain the four attacks with Toothy or Razortusk, and one more rage powers in addition to the three required to gain pounces ; others could also take Eldritch Heritage for the poisonous bite of serpentine bloodline, or the rage power giving a bite attack. Bite x2 + Gore + 2 claws is nothing to sneeze at if you use power attack when hasted, since you probably invested in a nifty amulet of mighty fists before. Additional fun for invulnerable Dex-based barbarians with an agile amulet.
Out of curiosity, what leads you to believe that the RAW is not RAI as well?RAW: any full attack is possible with pounce
RAI: most likely meant to imitate a big cat jumping on you with all four claws and biting you, no iteration at all.
Likelihood that a developer will weigh in on a rules topic inspired by AM's build: 13.7%Most of all, the image in my head when I picture a "pounce". Words are important. You wouldn't call a spell fireball if it produced water in the shape of a giraffe. You would call it water giraffe. "Pounce" doesn't describe a person walking forward and then taking four swings with a sword.
Additionally, consider this odd conundrum. This is applying fluff to rules logic which I don't much care for, but since it was asked, I will oblige with a full response:
Take a big cat. Said big cat can walk toward you and swipe at you with its claw or bite you. Big kitty can also walk quicker at you (in a straight line, no less), implied jump at you, and hit you with four claws and a bite to your face. This sounds like a "pounce" to me.
Now consider a human. He carries a club. He can walk toward you and hit you with the club. He can also walk quicker at you (in a straight line, no less), implied jump at you...maybe, and hit you with his club. Then he hits you with his club three more times. Somehow, these hits also carry the same benefit of him charging at you despite that he has most certainly stopped moving by the time his second blow hits. This doesn't sound at all like a "pounce" and further doesn't seem to make much sense.
Now consider a half-orc. He has two vestigial tentacles, two claws, and has big pointy teeth. He can walk toward you and hit you with a claw. He can also walk quicker at you (in a straight line, no less), implied jump at you, and hit you with his two claws, his two tentacles, and bite you in the face. This sounds like a "pounce" to me.
All three scenarios are possible by RAW. I believe only .
Scenario 4 a man is walking along carrying nothing he can attack with his body as a weapon. He can jump better and run faster than a tiger. When he pounces sadly if he can't make a full attack he hits you once despite still having 3 more limbs and a head.