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"Ignoring RAI, for power and profit".
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I think it takes more hubris than a monk is allowed to have to call himself a masterwork human.
I wouldn't let you cast masterwork transformation on an unarmed strike, mainly because there is no "masterwork equivalent" for a unarmed strike, which means the spell would have no effect.
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A masterwork hand...
How does such a thing exist? Do you get rid of imposable thumbs so you don't break em when you punch someone?
Or do your bones, which just happened to be of *masterwork* quality do better with hitting things?
If it adds to attack, not damage, I just don't see it. What can you do to a man's body to make him more accurate with his punches?
Oh, thats right, make him stronger. Isn't there a spell for that?
Or give him more dexterity, I think there's a spell for that too...
Or cast magic weapon on his fists, which actually specifies his unarmed attacks...
The issue is that the only real way to improve a unarmed strike would by increasing ethier your training in such a technique (look at monks, they know some serious pressure points... on everything!) or by just flat out improving your arm. Thats what stats focus on.
In the pathfinder world, wouldn't everything organic be of masterwork quality, because they were made by the master workers(deities)?
RAW or RAI, it's pointless, but up to your GM. I've often found that's where things get stopped or started, so... don't get your hopes too high up.
Gentleman, we can rebuild him.
We have the spell on our spell list.
We can make him better, stronger, faster than he was before.
He is....the 6 Million Gold Man.
I was in the middle of writing just about the same thing I saw this post. Great minds think alike. Also, if a player ever offered 6 million gold, I think I would allow masterwork hands. I mean, they would have to impress me in order to grab an opportunity to gain that much in the first place.
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Make the PC pay the 300gp per limb to fully allow it, and why not? That's 1200gp plus casting spent for a +1 non-magical bonus.
Would that really be that bad? Is there a consequence of allowing this I'm not thinking of??
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Come on, guy. You know the answer to this question. Deep Down. Look into your heart. The answer is...
...HELL YES!
Look at these perfect hands. So supple, yet strong. Perfectly formed knuckles. Precise finger movements. Beautiful fingernails. This is truly a Masterwork Hand
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Look at these perfect hands. So supple, yet strong. Perfectly formed knuckles. Precise finger movements. Beautiful fingernails. This is truly a Masterwork Hand
This.
Some body parts of well known celebrities are also masterwork .. and that without magic!
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Make the PC pay the 300gp per limb to fully allow it, and why not? That's 1200gp plus casting spent for a +1 non-magical bonus.
Would that really be that bad? Is there a consequence of allowing this I'm not thinking of??
Step by step
1) My hand is a weapon, so it can become masterwork.2) My hand is a masterwork weapon, as it is a valid target for masterwork transformation it is a valid target for making it a magic item, so I get it enchanted.
3) My hand is a magic +1 weapon, a amulet of mighty fist don't need a +1 enhancement, I get a amulet of mighty fist with the flaming property.
The two effect stack.
For 6.360 gp instead of 16.000 gp the character get a +1 flaming fist (remember, with the recent FAQ you can make all your flurry of blow attacks with a single limb).
Repeat, till you have a total +15 enhancement on your limb.
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I believe it's called a mani-pedi in most circles.
Can i repair an Unarmed Strike with 'Mending' or 'Make whole'?
Can i sunder/disarm the Unarmed Strike?
At least damaging must be possible. When i can make a hand better i can make it poorer too.
Is there a possibility to use a 'Inappropriately Sized Unarmed Strike'?
.. come one
Make the PC pay the 300gp per limb to fully allow it, and why not? That's 1200gp plus casting spent for a +1 non-magical bonus.
Would that really be that bad? Is there a consequence of allowing this I'm not thinking of??
Step by step
1) My hand is a weapon, so it can become masterwork.
2) My hand is a masterwork weapon, as it is a valid target for masterwork transformation it is a valid target for making it a magic item, so I get it enchanted.
3) My hand is a magic +1 weapon, a amulet of mighty fist don't need a +1 enhancement, I get a amulet of mighty fist with the flaming property.
The two effect stack.For 6.360 gp instead of 16.000 gp the character get a +1 flaming fist (remember, with the recent FAQ you can make all your flurry of blow attacks with a single limb).
Repeat, till you have a total +15 enhancement on your limb.
Repeat what until you get a +15 enhancement? Enchant the limb until +5 and use an amulet +5? I'm obviously not that familiar with Pathfinder because I can't see where you can get +15.
Any GM allowing that extrapolation deserves everything they get!
And as the masterwork enhancement had to be on all four limbs, I'd insist on everything else having to go on all four limbs. And if the player whined that they can make their flurries with one limb, I'd arrange an encounter with something that can cut limbs off. Like a Bolton Bannerman.
Besides, there's a huge difference between allowing someone to use the spell Masterwork transformation, which involves a short spell, and some special unguents poured over the item; and someone trying to get their limbs enchanted. I'd tell my player that just because they could get a spell cast on them doesn't mean they can get their entire body enchanted.
I hadn't thought about the stacking with the amulet, and it not needing a +1 before you can stick abilities on it though.
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+10 levels of enhancements to the limb (limit of a weapon), +5 on the amulet (limit of the amulet).
Enchanting all limbs ... but a monk strike with fist, elbow, foots, knees, he can even do head butts. How many masterwork transformations he would need?
Besides, there's a huge difference between allowing someone to use the spell Masterwork transformation, which involves a short spell, and some special unguents poured over the item; and someone trying to get their limbs enchanted. I'd tell my player that just because they could get a spell cast on them doesn't mean they can get their entire body enchanted.
I don't see this huge difference between someone pouring some liquid on your arm and enchanting it so it twist and reshape till it is a masterwork limb and someone tattooing it with mystic runes for 8 hours every day till it is enchanted.
As I was typing the above I thought "wait, tattooing..."
Players in my games usually learn fairly quick that there's a limit to how flexible things can be without it falling into taking the mickey territory. I suppose it can be argued that if you allow masterwork you should allow enchanting, but then the GM can always say "nah.."
Besides, I'd say only a lunatic enchanter will try it, you have to get covered in disfiguring tattoos and scarification work, and the GM gets to roll the enchantment test (and then sic the character with a -1 cursed backbiting or berserking limb.)
Hilarity ensues.
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SKR, the writer of the masterwork transformation spell and game designer, says that it will not work. How can this be ignored?
He also points out that it doesn't work because of the description of the spell itself:-
If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect.
There is no masterwork object that is an unarmed strike.
Just as you can't craft the masterwork quality into a previously crafted sword (it must be made as a masterwork weapon as part of the crafting of the weapon), you can't craft the masterwork quality into a human body after the fact!
SKR, the writer of the masterwork transformation spell and game designer, says that it will not work. How can this be ignored?
So true! By RAW and RAI you are dead right. However...
This is a clear contender for Rule of Cool status and also qualifies for the FCaOP rider, and that proviso states if it helps anything less than a full caster a majority of the time without breaking the game it's A-okay. But that is a topic for a different subforum...
Come on, guy. You know the answer to this question. Deep Down. Look into your heart. The answer is...
...HELL YES!
Look at these perfect hands. So supple, yet strong. Perfectly formed knuckles. Precise finger movements. Beautiful fingernails. This is truly a Masterwork Hand
^He gets it.
This is the rules forum.
People who come on here want to know what the rules are, not what any individual might think is cool.
Yeah, I said as much in my post (RAI, RAW, mention of it being a topic for another subforum). Please don't go out of your way to be contentious.
There's no rules for being dead or needing sleep either.
Really? I see rules for being dead in combat and Dead as a Status Condition, along with the need to sleep being covered here for any major activity beyond 8 hours, specifically:
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond 8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
I'll admit, the Forced March thing is a bit of a stretch by comparison, but dead is definitely in the rules, and I'm not sure what sort of adventuring you'd do without walking (or expending equivalent effort)...
SKR, the writer of the masterwork transformation spell and game designer, says that it will not work. How can this be ignored?
He also points out that it doesn't work because of the description of the spell itself:-
If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect.There is no masterwork object that is an unarmed strike.
Just as you can't craft the masterwork quality into a previously crafted sword (it must be made as a masterwork weapon as part of the crafting of the weapon), you can't craft the masterwork quality into a human body after the fact!
I wasn't ignoring SKR at all, I didn't know he'd made a rule on it!
As for your comment about not being able to craft the masterwork quality into a human body, The argument could be made that the training represented by the feat Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), is crafting that particular human body into a masterwork item..
I'm not saying it's an argument I would make, just that it could be made.
The enchanter can take 10 when enchanting something. He need to work hard on over enchanting to create a cursed item.
And why the tattoos should be disfiguring?
The enchanter can take a 10, but he's an NPC and I'd choose to make the roll. If the player doesn't like that, I'd say tough!
And the tattoos would be disfiguring, again cos I as the GM, choose for them to be disfiguring!
After all, the character is choosing to enchant their limbs into becoming magical killing machines. I can't imagine the required tattoos would be fluffy bunnies and flowers... ;-)
So, what you're saying is, you'd twist the request of the player so as to f&&* him in every possible way, instead of just being a man and saying "No" instead of being passive aggressively douchey?
This is a clear contender for Rule of Cool status and also qualifies for the FCaOP rider, and that proviso states if it helps anything less than a full caster a majority of the time without breaking the game it's A-okay.
It looks like "FCaOP" is something about "Full Caster" and "Over-Powered", but I'm not certain what the "a" stands for.
Perhaps "are"?
The OP leads to the path of "enchanting oneself as armor and weapon", which, while rife with possibilities, is not well supported by RAW.
KISS: apply the spell to weapons useable with unarmed strikes, such as gauntlets or brass knuckles. Problem solved without breaking RAW and RAI.
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The OP leads to the path of "enchanting oneself as armor and weapon", which, while rife with possibilities, is not well supported by RAW.
KISS: apply the spell to weapons useable with unarmed strikes, such as gauntlets or brass knuckles. Problem solved without breaking RAW and RAI.
Both are not usable with unarmed strikes. There is a SKR quote about that, but now I haven't the time to search for that.
Both are not usable with unarmed strikes. There is a SKR quote about that, but now I haven't the time to search for that.The OP leads to the path of "enchanting oneself as armor and weapon", which, while rife with possibilities, is not well supported by RAW.
KISS: apply the spell to weapons useable with unarmed strikes, such as gauntlets or brass knuckles. Problem solved without breaking RAW and RAI.
So, what you're saying is, you'd twist the request of the player so as to f*#% him in every possible way, instead of just being a man and saying "No" instead of being passive aggressively douchey?
I think you may have forgotten to read the most important rule below where we type??
But to answer your question (with the attempted facetiousness ignored), I would allow the player's request to use masterwork transformation on their character's body because I think it's a pretty cool idea and has a great feel to it, in my opinion. I'd also suggest to the player that this doesn't necessarily mean they'll be able to start enchanting their limbs as magical weapons!
However, if the player decided further down the line that as their limbs are now masterwork that they should be able to enchant them and tried to rules lawyer their way into getting the ok I'd ask them nicely if they were sure they thought it was a good idea. The player would have to roleplay getting access to someone able to do it, and because it's such an unusual procedure, I'd tell the player that there's no taking 10 on the rolls (it's too difficult for the caster). The caster's Spellcraft check DC would have a huge modifier to it because the enchanter is effectively enchanting multiple weapons at once. And a failed result would be played. Of course it would.
That's not "twisting the request of the player", it's applying consequences to the player and their character. I very rarely say "no" to players, I find it much more entertaining for everyone (especially the players) to say "yes, but…" Obviously that's not "manly" enough for you.
Oh well (shrug).
All very tangential and not really for this thread anymore, cos this is the rules section, and SKR has already pointed out that by RAW and ROI you can't use this spell for this effect.
Said quotes are here, here, and here.Both are not usable with unarmed strikes. There is a SKR quote about that, but now I haven't the time to search for that.The OP leads to the path of "enchanting oneself as armor and weapon", which, while rife with possibilities, is not well supported by RAW.
KISS: apply the spell to weapons useable with unarmed strikes, such as gauntlets or brass knuckles. Problem solved without breaking RAW and RAI.
That makes absolutely no sense. Oh well.
Take a normal sword. To make it masterwork, you take it to the forge and place it on the anvil, and with fire and hammer re-craft the blade, making it lighter, stronger, and better tempered. You add weight to the pommel to improve the balance. You spend weeks working at it until you get it just right. Or you can cast a spell that does all that work with skill, hammer, and fire in the blink of an eye.
Take your hand. Take it to the forge, and apply fire and hammer. Then running screaming to the healer, and you may just not be crippled for life in that limb. Do you REALLY want masterwork transformation to apply this same effect to your arms and legs with no saving throw? No, I didn't think so...
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Take a normal sword. To make it masterwork, you take it to the forge and place it on the anvil, and with fire and hammer re-craft the blade, making it lighter, stronger, and better tempered. You add weight to the pommel to improve the balance. You spend weeks working at it until you get it just right. Or you can cast a spell that does all that work with skill, hammer, and fire in the blink of an eye.
Take your hand. Take it to the forge, and apply fire and hammer. Then running screaming to the healer, and you may just not be crippled for life in that limb. Do you REALLY want masterwork transformation to apply this same effect to your arms and legs with no saving throw? No, I didn't think so...
Actually, you can't take an already forged sword and make it masterwork with the craft skill; it must be made masterwork in the first place.
Hence the need for masterwork transformation. It isn't possible without the magic, but it can only work on things which could have been made masterwork in the first place but weren't.
I have always disagreed with this ruling for various reasons the main being that a monk can clearly wear a bathrobe and be able to punch through armor.
In the nahds of a monk the unarmed strike becomes quasi magical already
there whole life represents masterwork level punching kicking ect...
I just think that people should let the monk enchant his fists I see no reason why not.
but it is just my opinion
but any guy in a bathrobe who can punch through solid steel with his bare hands clearly has above average weapons.
I have always disagreed with this ruling for various reasons the main being that a monk can clearly wear a bathrobe and be able to punch through armor.
In the nahds of a monk the unarmed strike becomes quasi magical already
there whole life represents masterwork level punching kicking ect...I just think that people should let the monk enchant his fists I see no reason why not.
but it is just my opinion
but any guy in a bathrobe who can punch through solid steel with his bare hands clearly has above average weapons.
Personally I just give the monk a ki-strike enhancement bonus as if he had greater magic fang or weapon cast on him: +1 at 4th level, +2 at 7th, +3 at 10th etc. to +5 at 16th. Thematic and given the monk's many problems, not exactly broken.
There's no rules for being dead or needing sleep either.Really? I see rules for being dead in combat and Dead as a Status Condition, along with the need to sleep being covered here for any major activity beyond 8 hours,
Note that nowhere in those links does it say that you can't take your regular set of actions while dead. That's the point that's usually being made with that reference.
No masterwork equivalent? Well, ignoring that some alchemists might disagree, go into a rant, and laugh maniacally, I think the entire point of being a monk is to forge yourself into such a state. So yes, a masterwork body would be a level 20 monk. Turning anyone into that might be a bit much for a spell that only costs 300 gp though.