ninja. look it up on the SRD.
That is hardly an old school thief. Even old school thieves could check for traps and the like. While I do admit that the Ninja can sometimes be referred to as Rogue 2.0, it's a far different class, and should be played as such. Also, many campaigns don't allow it because of it's oriental motif.
If you wanted an 'old fashion thief', it really depends a lot on the setting, play style and availability of your campaign, but a halfling rogue would do you well.
At the bottom of this site http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue you'll find a list of alternatives for the rogue to take, which allow him to more uniquely create or focus in his character.
Stat wise, rogues are very MAD (multi ability dependent), needing Dex first and foremost, str next, with con and int following close behind, charisma somewhere in the mix, depending on the play style (some love the silver tongue trickster), and wis being your dump stat. Your dex should be between 16 and 20, especially as a human/halfling, though half elf and half orc work just as well if you're going social rogue.
Feat wise you should consider stuff like Dodge, Power Attack, anything that allows for you to use your small size as a halfling (Taunt comes to mind), anything that adds to your ability to stealth, and or anything that allows use of bluff/intimidate/diplomacy.
Weapons can be anything from a crossbow and long sword, to a Weapon Finesse (feat) fighting rapier wielder.
Put as many points as you can into Steath, Acrobatics, Slight of Hand, Use Magic Device, Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Dungeoneering/Engineering/Arcana/Local, if you think you'll use them), Climb, Disguise and Disable Device. You shouldn't have a problem covering those as a rogue, especially one with a high int or human/favored class bonus skills.
I can't agree with anything you said in your post, Akeaka :)
why would an old-school rogue need strength, con or any martial feats?
Any old-school rogue worth his salt will be bypassing combat situations, not getting involved in them.
To the OP: I've played rogues all my gaming life but never a PF rogue so I'm not up-to-date on all the options. A quick scan of the SRD suggests:
Stats:
High-Dex and Int
Med-Wis and Cha (Wis for perception. Cha for the social skills (inc bluff))
Low-Str and Con
20-point build: Dex, Int, Wis, Cha = 14's. Racial bonus to taste. 10's in Str and Con.
Archetypes:
Combine burglar with either acrobat or chameleon, depending on the character's specialty.
Skills: to suit. Despite not being traditional, UMD is very useful.
Talents: The 'quick' talents (quick picks, fast stealth, etc) aren't worth it, in my opinion.
Avoid combat options. (Let the others worry about hitting things)
Anything that let's you roll twice is good.
Trap Spotter, Nimble Climber both good.
Feats: Improved Initiative (OK, it's a combat feat but, if you act first, you can run away first!!)
The last rogue I played was very old-school: her weapons a +1 dagger, her wits and a bad attitude. She saved the party on many occasion and was the (unwitting) star of the show on many more.
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I posted this with one of my PF rogues - the one I picture more as the "old style thief" - thou he's a Trapsmith/sniper. Click on the my name and you can look him over. And I'm sure a lot of other posters will be happy to tell you where I went crazy in his build. He's 5th level, and he took his 4th level stat bump in Dex - but if you back that out you should be able to figure him out from there.
For a starting character - just to get your feet wet so to speak - try the Iconic Rogue. Play her a time or two and customizer her from that.
Hey I'm gonna have a game soon and a new poured wants an old school thief , pickpockets lockpicking and such can anyone help me with a quick build .thanks a lot .
the pathfinder rogue can be an old school thief very easily. An old school thief was very reliant upon its skills and its better than average ability scores. A fighting thief, will often use its ability to avoid damage (dodge, mobility) as it moves in for flanks to activate back-stab damage and two weapon attacks. A stealth rogue will obviously concentrate skills for stealth even possibly using skill focus to increase those further. The magical rogue will have a high Use Magic Device, that you can top out at 1st level at around +13 or so depending on your chosen feats and ability scores. Remember, both the stealth rogue and magic rogue are very skill dependent and require high charisma ability, while many of the rogue skills also require dexterity. These should be your two main ability scores. Int and Wis will be secondary, while con and str will be dump stats. Whether you being small or medium is more of a personal choice to make, you can be just as effective being small and using small weapons, because the bulk of your damage is going to come from flanking backstabs. In pathfinder, unlike 3.5, are rogue talents that truly offer the rogue more abilities than ever before: fast stealth, bleeding attack, and ledge-walker to name a few. It would be helpful to read through those rogue talents prior to a build.
Something else you might want to consider is build a 6th level rogue first, so as to have an idea of what this rogue will be once you have a few more abilities to use, then go back and build its first level once you have an idea of what abilities and skills you are going to need when that rogue "grows up" to be that sixth level one you built.Hope this helps, because rogues have become quite the diversified character in Pathfinder.
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Here's a build for a first level traditional Thief (Core Rules Only) that may give you a starting point:
Rogue (Human)
Level 1
Ability Scores (15 point buy):
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (+2)
CON: 10
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 13
Class Abilities:
• Sneak Attack +1d6
• Trapfinding
Skills: (11 skill points)
• Acrobatics (DEX) +8
• Bluff (CHA) +5
• Climb (STR) +4
• Disable Device (DEX) +8 (+9 trapfinding)
• Escape Artist (DEX) +8
• Knowledge (Local) (INT) +6
• Perception (WIS) +4 (+5 trapfinding)
• Sense Motive (WIS) +4
• Sleight of Hand (DEX) +8
• Stealth (DEX) +8
• Use Magic Device (CHA) +5
Feats:
• Dodge
• Mobility
This is not an optimized build by any means. Rather, this build is designed to fill the Thief's traditional role of trapfinding, lock picking, pick pocketing, and burglary as you requested.
Ability scores are assuming a 15 point build, and emphasize the "sneaky" parts of a Rogue - DEX, INT, and CHA. This means you won't be great in combat, but will do just fine as a thief.
Skill selection is set so you maximize the skills you will need in your profession, and can continue to add to them as your Rogue establishes his identity. Bluff is a must, as you won't be able to do much in a fight, but you may be able to talk your way out of a difficult situation should you be caught practicing your chosen profession...
Feats are defensive by design. These allow you to move around the battlefield and (hopefully) avoid getting hit while positioning yourself for a few well-placed sneak attacks. As you progress, you may want to add Improved Initiative, Iron Will, or some form of Skill Focus.
From an equipment perspective, Masterwork Thieves' Tools are a must. Leather Armor is advisable, as well as a basic weapon with a better than normal chance to crit, such as a Rapier, Short Sword, or a Dagger (You won't hit often, but the expanded crit threat allows you a better chance of maximizing your damage when you do hit).
Let me know your thoughts, and I hope this helps!
What’s a “new poured”? Player? Why does he want pickpockets? Maybe he’s played too much solo computer games, and wants to run around, picking pockets of innocent townsfolk like crazy? Or maybe he wants to steal from his fellow party members?
Neither one is conducive to table-top group play. Doing the first requires many hours of solo play, and often gets the PC and the group into trouble, doing the second often leads to hard feelings.
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What’s a “new poured”? Player? Why does he want pickpockets? Maybe he’s played too much solo computer games, and wants to run around, picking pockets of innocent townsfolk like crazy? Or maybe he wants to steal from his fellow party members?
Neither one is conducive to table-top group play. Doing the first requires many hours of solo play, and often gets the PC and the group into trouble, doing the second often leads to hard feelings.
Ah, but Pick Pocketing has been a part of D&D since 1st edition, so it's definitely part of table top gaming. While it isn't advisable to steal from your party, it can be a useful skill in a variety of ways.
For example:
* Using Stealth plus Invisibility to creep up to a monster, then stealing an item from his person prior to the rest of the party confronting him can be very useful in gaining a combat advantage.
* Picking pockets in an urban setting (bar, inn, on the streets, etc.) can be used as a way for a GM to start off a new adventure or campaign. Who knows what a PC might get picking some random pocket? On the flipside, what could happen if the PC gets caught picking the pocket of a prominent citizen?
I don't think it's fair to assume this player wants to pick pockets to undermine his party and/or promote his character at the expense of others. I have run quite a few Rogues/Thieves who maxed out Sleight of Hand to pick pockets, and they can very easily contribute to the party's goals.
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Several other posters have listed CHA as very high amoung the required stats. I wish to disagree.
While it can be good to have a high CHA - it give you one type of Rogue. It is quite as exceptable to run a low CHA rogue - in fact, I would picture the classic thief to not be a "rogue" and not have a high CHA. I run a lot of Rogues in PFSOP (3). Each of them is a different "type" of rogue - and none are the CHA rogue (yet). For that type of character I have a Bard.
"trapfinding, lock picking, pick pocketing, and burglary" are not CHA skills (unless you get caught, then Bluff becomes important).
in fact, trapfinding is a WIS skill (Perception)... which most of the other posters are listing as a low importance Stat.
There are goggles to fix low Perception and rogue talents for trapfinding.
Charisma can and should be used to make a great rogue. One of the greatest abilities in the rogue arsinal is Cha based...BLUFF! If the rogue wasn't meant to fill a sociable role they wouldn't have put in Honeyed Words and Cosmopolitan and other sweet Cha based rogue talents.
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bluff is a trap, you are better off with intimidate/dazzling display/shatter defenses/cornugon smash. this is a lot more likely to keep your foe flat footed.
trapfinding is worthless, you can just walk through the trap and use a few happy stick charges afterwards. everyone else on these boards does it.
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bluff is a trap, you are better off with intimidate/dazzling display/shatter defenses/cornugon smash. this is a lot more likely to keep your foe flat footed.If you want to play a melee based Inquisitor...sure.
He asked for a Thief. Thieves are cunning tricksters...not brutish Ogres.
it's better for thieves too. cornugan smash/shatter defenses need not be strength based, and they guarantee sneak attack damage every round after the first. you could reskin it a variety of ways.
bluff is a trap and trapfinding is overrated.
there is no rule that says weapon finesse and power attack can't be used together.
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bluff is a trap, you are better off with intimidate/dazzling display/shatter defenses/cornugon smash. this is a lot more likely to keep your foe flat footed.If you want to play a melee based Inquisitor...sure.
He asked for a Thief. Thieves are cunning tricksters...not brutish Ogres.
it's better for thieves too. cornugan smash/shatter defenses need not be strength based, and they guarantee sneak attack damage every round after the first. you could reskin it a variety of ways.
bluff is a trap and trapfinding is overrated.
there is no rule that says weapon finesse and power attack can't be used together.
You are right, but again being sucked back into the DPR discussion. He wants a thief...pick pocket, trapfinding, stealth around: thief.
Whats more like a thief:
"It wasn't me."
or
"I'm gonna freakin' kill you now!"
If you chose the second option you are a thug...not a thief.
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a thug is still a type of thief. the classic 1e style thief won't last very long in your typical pathfinder game.
80% of the game is generally assumed to be combat, and a build that can't keep up in combat is a weak link waiting to be eliminated. i learned from this mistake when i played a bard with a 7 strength and constitution as a sickly little noble girl who couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag. she got killed in one swing by a monster 2CRs lower than her.
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a thug is still a type of thief. the classic 1e style thief won't last very long in your typical pathfinder game.
80% of the game is generally assumed to be combat, and a build that can't keep up in combat is a weak link waiting to be eliminated. i learned from this mistake when i played a bard with a 7 strength and constitution as a sickly little noble girl who couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag. she got killed in one swing by a monster 2CRs lower than her.
I disagree. I have made several Rogues who were not combat oriented, and they managed to get along just fine.
In any case, the OP did not want a combat oriented Rogue. He wanted a "traditional" Thief. Don't assume he's playing the same way you are.
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a thug is still a type of thief. the classic 1e style thief won't last very long in your typical pathfinder game.
80% of the game is generally assumed to be combat, and a build that can't keep up in combat is a weak link waiting to be eliminated. i learned from this mistake when i played a bard with a 7 strength and constitution as a sickly little noble girl who couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag. she got killed in one swing by a monster 2CRs lower than her.
Just because you couldn't pull it off doesn't mean it can't be done.
My buddy in the campaign I play in now is 100% Charisma based. The GM knows this and makes sure there is some social aspect to what we do. His Bluff and Sense Motive and everything is SUPER high, and he took EWP for Heavy Repeating Crossbow and does enough damage to get by in combat considering the rest of the party is damage/armor based. Outside of combat he is MORE than capable of finding and disabling traps, pick pocketing whomever, and is the BEST information gathering tool you could EVER ask for.
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it depends on whether or not your DM plays with "aggro".
if the tanks are "Sticky" the rogue may live, but in my case, the tank didn't deal enough damage to be a threat, despite being unhittable, so the monsters started target the sickly little girl who kept dancing and coughing up blood. she was killed in one swing by a creature 2 CRs lower than her. (not one round, one swing) and the darn thing was trying to deal nonlethal damage for an attempted capture.
the little girl was a pure intellegence and charisma based bard. lots of skills, excellent face. the failed capture was after a successful negotiation attempt.
bluff is a trap, you are better off with intimidate/dazzling display/shatter defenses/cornugon smash. this is a lot more likely to keep your foe flat footed.
...
Bluff is a trap only if you are solely interested in combat effectiveness. (And I have a friend who makes it work pretty well there too.) Your intimidate ==> cornugon smash train of feats has no use in a social encounter.
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it depends on whether or not your DM plays with "aggro".
if the tanks are "Sticky" the rogue may live, but in my case, the tank didn't deal enough damage to be a threat, despite being unhittable, so the monsters started target the sickly little girl who kept dancing and coughing up blood. she was killed in one swing by a creature 2 CRs lower than her. (not one round, one swing) and the darn thing was trying to deal nonlethal damage for an attempted capture.
the little girl was a pure intellegence and charisma based bard. lots of skills, excellent face. the failed capture was after a successful negotiation attempt.
This isn't an MMO...there are no "aggro" tables...if you shoot the dragon ONCE with a bow the GM can easily turn and have it fire breath you.
Your goal is to be far enough away from combat to give yourself time to run, activate magic equipment or have your teammates interrupt the enemy.
And how would damage dealing feats have saved your Bard? You'd still die a terrible death because you were wearing light armor and frail...like any spell caster or light armor character would be.
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damage dealing feats wouldn't have saved my bard. they could save the rogue. investing in defense would have saved the helpless, sickly little girl.
an even though pathfinder has no "aggro" tables, i have heard of DMs doing similar things. my bard didn't even fire a bow or use any weapon. all she did was dance (Bardic Performance), support allies with spells (not even really flashy ones), negotiate, and use her repertoire of noncombat skills as effectively as she could for the situation. she didn't wear armor because she didn't have the strength to bear the burden. her masterwork noble's dress was cumbersome enough, not counting her relatively light pack of equipment. she didn't quite have the best wisdom either.
To disregard Use Magic Device as a Rogue class, any kind of rogue, is eliminating about 30% of its overall effectiveness. The Rogue is one of the few classes that has enough skill points each level to put into Use Magic Device as a class skill, for using either divine or arcane magics.
If this campaign is an urban style campaign, then the need for gathering information will far outweigh the need for combat productive damage. If this campaign is more rural oriented, the role of scout will fall to the rogue. If more dungeon oriented, scout will still be emphasized.
Combat expertise, improved feint for lower level rogues is huge especially with high CHA to benefit its bluff abilities. Eliminating dexterity of opponents means additional damage no matter what weapon or size modifier you suffer from.
Having a decent dexterity already gives a better than average AC at low levels, and since you don't have a +1 BAB at 1st level you have to get those feats as above, or those that better enhance your skill abilities such as skill focus, magical aptitude (Use Magic Device increase)and if you are playing with traits, dangerously curious helps.
You have to get more information from your DM as to what the setting may be, if this is an adventure path type of game, where you are 1/2 in town, 1/2 out of town, then take a good mix of those skills, and an overall balance to your abilities. You won't be particularly good at any one thing, but decent at everything.
Jack of all trades, Master of none! that is the way of the traditional thief.
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It may help if we narrow down the definition of "old-school thief".
To me it means:
* Emphasis on stealth, "weaseling", and atomic-wedgie-delivery over straight-up combat (i.e., the sneak-attack dice are there -- but if you're focused on using them, you're doing it wrong). Your goal is to snatch that purse and run, not fight for it. ("What are yeh, goomba retarded or sumptin?")
* You have more skill points than the rest of the table added together.
* You have Evasion, because you're a rogue, not one of those Easterm pretenders with their enviable wakizashis which are so much like scimitars only they don't suck and...*ahem*. Wizards don't like having their stuff pinched, and sometimes get pissed and burn down entire city blocks' worth of your favorite hiding places with Empowered, Maximized, Widened Fireball. ("What do you call a ninja caught on the commode when his entire apartment-building blows up? 'Barbeque-son!' What do you call the halfling caught similarly? Looking for a new place to be four months late with the rent!")
* You're proud to be a halfling ne'er-do-well, and consider human rogues a clumsy insult to your profession. Crashing the funeral of a human rogue to Sleight of Hand the Ring of Featherfall right off the corpse while his mother sobs nearby is a highlight of any halfling scofflaw's day. ("Momma should've raised a cowboy! -- Show me a competent 'human' rogue; and I'll show you a halfling wearing a Hat of Disguise!")
* Rogue is a state-of-mind, not a "class" -- you will shamelessly infiltrate the "turf" of other professions to kite the most expediently appropriated of their secrets, then book once you have what you want. (I,e., if multiclassing helps you be a better rogue, uh, well, duh. "You can get farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone!" -- Al Capone.)
= = = = =
STR-05 (20pt halfling)
DEX+19 (all bumps)
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA+14
Traits: Berserker of the Society, Reactionary
01 barba1 [urban] Agile Maneuvers
02 rogu1 SA+1d6
03 monk1 [maneuver master:Improved Dirty Trick], Extra Rage
04 rogu2 [Evasion][Finesse Rogue], DEX>20
05 fight1 [Unarmed], Dragon Style
06 monk2 [maneuver master:Improved Overrun]
07 fight2 [Combat Expertise], Improved Steal
08 rogu3 SA+2d6
09 rogu4 [Uncanny Dodge][Combat Trick:Piranha Strike], Two Weapon Fighting
Exploit: Has three feats without paying prerequisites. ("Hey: 'rogue', remember? Five-finger-discount where applicable!")
Equipment: Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile), wand of Expeditious Retreat, bag of cayenne pepper
...let it slowly sink in what this little squirt can do to make your life endlessly miserable if you lip off about halflings in his presence. You won't even be done with the insult before you're flat on your ass with eyes full of pepper while he's sitting on top of your chest re-arranging your face.
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To disregard Use Magic Device as a Rogue class, any kind of rogue, is eliminating about 30% of its overall effectiveness.
Only if you're building a UMD rogue and then not using UMD. The belief that a rogue (and especially a "thief"!) needs to use UMD to be effective is simply not true.
Take me, for example (click my name to see a rough outline of my stats at level 2). I have 7 CHA (but a postitive Diplomacy, in case I need it). No UMD. But what do I have?
• The ability to sneak around without being seen (max ranks in Stealth, no ACP).
• The ability to climb, swim, tumble, jump, or whatever else to reach the target (be it an enemy or an item that needs stealing). Especially climb; I can bare-hand a brick wall or natural rock surface without fail.
• When I do need to fight, I can kill things fast (and I even don't suck when not flanking).
• Plenty competent with pocket-picking.
"But wait!" you say. "What about bluffing? What happens when your 7 CHA self gets caught and you need to bluff your way out?"
Okay, seriously. If you get caught, and you're able to bluff your way out, your GM is doing something wrong: the bluff skill carries heavy modifiers based on the believability of the lie. Someone catches you stealing something, anything you say about "why I'm really there" is going to take at least a -10. Then they're going to say "bulls**t" and stab you. And they're going to stab you first because you took the time to try and talk your way out of an epic failure.
Meanwhile, someone catches me stealing something, and I just immediately smack them while they're still flat-footed and - if I don't want to kill them - I book it out of there using all the aforementioned climbing and jumping and swimming and stealthing skills to get away. Or if there's no escape, I can just fight them off, because I didn't waste resources in a fool's errand of trying to bluff and instead focused on not dying.
No, a rogue doesn't need CHA to be effective. There are CHA things to do, and there are non-CHA things to do. And the thing that actually "eliminates about 30% of the rogue's effectiveness" is trying to do both with the same rogue.
The "thief" should not be focused on CHA. The face/UMD guy should be. Or if you really want to, you can try to straddle the fence - but that's not what the OP asked for.
All you really need for a thief is stealth, sleight of hand and disable device. Okay, so make sure you put ranks in those and have at least 16 DEX. Boom.
Secondarily, you need a backup plan for when you do get caught. And when that happens, the circumstantial bluff penalties are going to eat you alive, so you might as well just face the music and either bolt or just fight your way out. So you need to be able to fight, and to be able to move. Acrobatics (for tumbling and jumping) takes advantage of the DEX you already have. Next up is STR and CON, for damage/climbing/swimming and survivability, respectively.
And finally, you need perception so you can find your mark and also notice approaching threats (so you can abort safely before they get there). Thus, WIS is not to be dumped - also, being an elf or half-elf helps.
INT isn't too important as you already get plenty of skill ranks. And CHA (for the "thief") is pointless.
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TLDR: If you're not a halfling, the CHA rogue and the thief rogue are two different things. Pick one.
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To disregard Use Magic Device as a Rogue class, any kind of rogue, is eliminating about 30% of its overall effectiveness.Only if you're building a UMD rogue and then not using UMD. The belief that a rogue (and especially a "thief"!) needs to use UMD to be effective is simply not true.
A rogue who can't UMD is like a barbarian who can't rage: the barbarian will still hit stuff and do a lot of damage -- but he's noticeably less good than he could be.
A rogue who can't UMD is like a barbarian who can't rage: the barbarian will still hit stuff and do a lot of damage -- but he's noticeably less good than he could be.
That's entirely opinion. UMD is great for the ongoing "rock, paper, scissors" of forum discussion (NO I SHOT YOU FIRST!) but in the actual game it's just not all that necessary in a relatively balanced party. This is tempered by the difficulty and expense of item use as well.
Rogues are a great class, but they're more player dependent that any other class to perform well. I've run a number of rogues and I always find that the usefulness of UMD isn't really available until you can dependably roll 20+, which is a while (and too late IMO).
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A rogue who can't UMD is like a barbarian who can't rage: the barbarian will still hit stuff and do a lot of damage -- but he's noticeably less good than he could be.To disregard Use Magic Device as a Rogue class, any kind of rogue, is eliminating about 30% of its overall effectiveness.Only if you're building a UMD rogue and then not using UMD. The belief that a rogue (and especially a "thief"!) needs to use UMD to be effective is simply not true.
So a single skill, which anyone can put ranks into, is equivalent to a primary class feature? Then I guess everyone should be taking Dangerously Curious or they'll be "noticeably less good than they could be".
Now, if rogues had some kind of class feature that required/played off of UMD, you'd have a point. But they don't. It's a skill. Anyone could invest in it, with the same level of efficiency as a rogue. There is nothing in the game that makes UMD more important for the rogue than for any other class.
Nothing, that is, except for tradition/habit.
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Then I guess everyone should be taking Dangerously Curious or they'll be "noticeably less good than they could be".
I did just that with my samurai (who has a CHA of 12); UMDing a wand of Mage Armor bought with prestige avoids sinking tons of money into eventually suboptimal (versus Celestial) interim armor (Akito has a touch-AC in the mid-20s at 5th...booyah!). Not to mention CLW or Reduce Animal on the horse, etc.
...obviously UMD is not an applicable strategy to a fighter with dumped INT and CHA in a cash-starved campaign.
There is nothing in the game that makes UMD more important for the rogue than for any other class.
Rogue as a class has the most synergy:
* they don't need Dangerously Curious,* they have a crap-ton of skillpoints so they can easily keep it maxed every level without shorting other skills,
* they usually (especially if halfling) have a good CHA score anyway,
* they're typically not spending all their money on weapons and armor, and consequently have cash to devote to "a solution for every problem" they can conceive of ahead of time.
Whole new worlds of tactics open up when you have UMD, the points to throw at it, and a feat set-up to exploit it. Example: you're at Tier 8-10 in an encounter which denies archery (magical wind, whatever) in which the PCs are fighting a demon in full-plate with an AC of 30 or so...what do you do? Well, your bow and knives are worthless, and you certainly don't want to stand right next to it, so....pull out your aces-in-the-hole: your wands of Frigid Touch and Cure Moderate Wounds, and get ready to either spot-heal your allies, or charge up 4d6 worth of Cold + stagger + sneak-attack if you spot an opportunity to Spring Attack into flank and back out. Nice thing is: they don't even have to be your wands; your allies will cheerfully lend you all kinds of crap if they know you have UMD and are going to use it rather than march up and get your head caved in (as commonly happens to melee rogues in PFS).
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...obviously UMD is not an applicable strategy to a fighter with dumped INT and CHA in a cash-starved campaign.
.....
Rogue as a class has the most synergy:
.....
* they usually (especially if halfling) have a good CHA score anyway,
This right here. Why does he "have a good CHA score anyway" when he could have dumped it like the fighter? As I already pointed out, I'm not talking about taking a rogue that's built for UMD and removing UMD. Of course that rogue will suck. I'm talking about never building him for UMD in the first place.
I keep hearing "rogues need CHA for UMD" and then "rogues need UMD because they have CHA".
Stat him out like a fighter with a decent DEX, and put his levels in rogue.
Take a human, for example:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 7
WIS 11
CHA 7
Guy's still got 7 ranks/level (plus FCB if you want), has lots of HP, and can chop people down with 2H PA. Sure, by the end of his PFS career he's accumulated a -3 to his attacks due to lower BAB, but otherwise what's the difference? He's traded combat feats for rogue talents (some of which ARE feats, others of which produce effects that feats can't duplicate), he's got more skills (and therefore more uses), he's got sneak attack, he's got evasion, he's got uncanny dodge. And what's he lost? 3 points of BAB and 13 HP.
Yes, the UMD rogue is viable. Yes, the UMD rogue without UMD sucks. But a CHA-dumped fighting-rogue is viable too. And unless I'm pursuing an extensive feat tree or can't afford the DEX, I'm picking rogue over fighter every time.
I would go with a human rogue, take Combat Expertise and Improved Feint at 1st level, take the Weapon Finesse talent at 2nd level, and at 8th level, take Greater Feint--which lets you make an opponent lose its Dex bonus for 1 full round, which is a boon to your allies.
Combat Expertise lets you boost your AC, so you can be on the defensive. When forced into combat, use Improved Feint to feint as a move action so you can consistently use your sneak attack abilities.
At 1st level, a longspear is an excellent weapon: it has reach, does decent damage, and has a good crit multiplier.
Emphasize Dex and Int, then Wis and Cha, and don't worry too much about Con and Str.
Most "thieves" need really good Perception, Disable Device, and Stealth. Bluff is key to feinting in combat. Knowledge local and dungeoneering are useful for navigating the criminal underworld. Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, and Swim are good for getting in and out of sticky situations. Use Magic Device really improves the versatility of the thief, by allowing him or her to use all sorts of magical wands, scrolls, and staffs. Diplomacy is vital if you are the face. Appraise, Disguise, Intimidate, Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand can be useful, but aren't really vital.
If you're playing a human 'thief', at 1st level I would take 'weapon finesse' and 'skill focus - perception'; perception is the most important skill in the game and certainly one you're going to utilize a lot if you're assuming the traditional thief role of party scout. As 'Wisdom' may not be one of your main stats, a skill boost would be good. For your 'Rogue Talent' at second level I would take 'Fast Stealth' which personally I rate and has obvious uses if you are taking up the scout role.
Skills-wise, as SmiloDan said, Perception, Disable Device and Stealth are key skills. Acrobatics, Climb and Escape Artist are also very important. I'd take Bluff over Diplomacy but both if that's possible. Again for an 'old school' thief vibe I would take Sleight of Hand - plus the ability to pick pockets, hide weapons and 'palm' stuff is quite handy to have. UMD adds extra versatility certainly, but possibly you can get away with putting points into it at 1st level. The rest of the skill list are optional.
Ability-wise I would tend to go for Dex and Cha, but I can see the point of making Wis your second stat (for Perception and Will saves). However, Dex and Cha affect your most important skills and will give you the greatest utility. Strength may be important if you want to fulfil a combat role. Con is probably secondary. Int would give you more skill points - but you've probably got a lot anyway (if you human) while Rogue 'knowledges' and linguistics are great but not vital.
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My take on it for those who may be at least slightly interested. Human Rogue based on a 20 point buy:
STR 14
DEX 14 + 2 = 16
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10
Rogue trained skills = 8 + 2(INT MOD) + 1(Race) + 1(favored class) = 12
Trained skills:
Acrobatics
Bluff
Climb
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Perception
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Survival *
Swim
Use Magic Device
* Granted that's not a class skill for rogues, but do you really want to put somebody on point if there's a pretty good chance they could get lost? Besides, if you're using the character traits from the APG (pages 326-333) there are a couple of them that will let him add survival as a class skill.
Suggested feat progression for the first several levels:
1 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload light crossbow
2 Trap Spotter
3 Precise Shot
4 Fast Stealth
5 Deadly Aim
6 Minor magic: Mage Hand
7 Rapid Shot
I realize that because I just generated a character that wasn't a drooling idiot with no personal hygiene and or social skills that some people will be turned off because his STR or DEX was somehow "suboptimal". That may be, but this is a character that doesn't have any real glaring weaknesses and can handle all of the traditional thief duties reasonably well.
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This right here. Why does he "have a good CHA score anyway" when he could have dumped it like the fighter?...obviously UMD is not an applicable strategy to a fighter with dumped INT and CHA in a cash-starved campaign.
.....
Rogue as a class has the most synergy:
.....
* they usually (especially if halfling) have a good CHA score anyway
<shrug> -- He doesn't have to be a rogue in the first place instead of a fighter if he doesn't want to exploit the class features which a rogue offers.
Rogues give you UMD as class, and a reason to keep Bluff maxed in order to feint adversaries to render them flatfooted. Or talk your way past the guard who could pound you into greasy paste.
...the OP wrote, desiring: "...wants an old school thief, pickpockets lockpicking and such."
-- This requires a lot of skillpoints, so you can't dump your INT. It also means you need to deal with what happens if you get caught -- you will get caught from time to time (and the best way to break out of jail is to never go their in the first place because you've successfully bribed/BS'd your way past the NPC who caught you...or Bluff/feint/go-first/run-like-hell ...so CHA skills are there for you.
As I already pointed out, I'm not talking about taking a rogue that's built for UMD and removing UMD. Of course that rogue will suck. I'm talking about never building him for UMD in the first place.
I keep hearing "rogues need CHA for UMD" and then "rogues need UMD because they have CHA".
Stat him out like a fighter with a decent DEX, and put his levels in rogue.
Take a human, for example:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 7
WIS 11
CHA 7Guy's still got 7 ranks/level (plus FCB if you want), has lots of HP, and can chop people down with 2H PA. Sure, by the end of his PFS career he's accumulated a -3 to his attacks due to lower BAB, but otherwise what's the difference? He's traded combat feats for rogue talents (some of which ARE feats, others of which produce effects that feats can't duplicate), he's got more skills (and therefore more uses), he's got sneak attack, he's got evasion, he's got uncanny dodge. And what's he lost? 3 points of BAB and 13 HP.
Well, OK; he can evade the Fireball and go in the surprise round -- but, aside from some sneak-attack dice, he's traded away virtually everything that's cool about being a rogue in order to be...a fighter.
Rogue is the go-to class that every other PC in the party swivels their head toward when they run up against something weird which no other class has any ability to deal with. I.e., what is this McGuffin? Can it be operated? Will it explode? Is it valuable? ...etc.
Being barbarian who "splashes" four levels of rogue is one thing, but being a 12th level straight-class rogue without the big Crayola box with two-dozen wands is sheer pain.
Rogues are initially front-loaded ("I put a rank in twelve skills at first-level!"), but they're also end-loaded ("I can make a DC 35 skill check in a dozen skills!") INT- and CHA-dumpers forfeit that utility; and in the final scheme of things are looking at a lot of character levels providing sneak-attack dice but which lack the flexibility of pulling out an "ace-in-the-hole" scroll of Heal or Breath of Life to stave off an impending TPK at Tier10 -- and tanks buy those things to hand out to healers and UMD guys.
Yes, the UMD rogue is viable. Yes, the UMD rogue without UMD sucks. But a CHA-dumped fighting-rogue is viable too. And unless I'm pursuing an extensive feat tree or can't afford the DEX, I'm picking rogue over fighter every time.
And at 6th-level you'd be a melee light-infantry with BAB4 and one polearm attack at Tier 6-7 in PFS fighting the BBEM with five attacks. The equivalent level tank has three attacks for more damage per, has more hitpoints, higher AC, higher fort-save versus that poison coming their way, and even higher will saves versus fear. The BBEM rips your no-UMD rogue face off; and so you stumble back and have to drink an expensive, full-price Cure Serious potion rather than UMD a half-price scroll or wand.
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Old school "rogue" (mostly), Take 2:
20pt-buy gnome
Alternative Racial Traits: Eternal Hope, Magical Linguist
Traits: Reactionary (INIT+2), Sprint (gnome:move+5)
STR-11 (bump 4th)
DEX:14
CON+15 (bump 8th)
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+16 (or 14, making a 14 available for INT or WIS)
(Note: this build uses the ninja alternative from Ultimate Combat rather than rogue because it utilizes a Ki pool; otherwise ordinary rogue is fine and you get to keep Evasion and Trapfinding -- which ninjas forfeit.)
01 barba1 [move=35], Raging Vitality
02 ninja1 SA+1d6
...in PFS, you'll spend prestige points to pick up a wand of Longstrider, which you UMD out of combat for a move of 45.
03 ninja2 [Ki pool], Bewildering Koan
-- Now you can have so much fun with this, especially in a home campaign:
<guard spots you being naughty; you spend a Ki point as a swift action to Bluff him with a riddle...>
"What's the sound of a halfling running in circles?"
<guard fails will-save, can do nothing while gnome runs 90' around him outside his reach and then boogies down an ally out of sight>
Guard, kinda dizzy from spinning around, "Huh? He didn't look like a halfling...."
= = = =
But enough of that horrible roleplaying stuff:
04 ninja3 SA+2d6, STR>12
05 figh1 Extra Rage, Dodge
...Prior to 5th and an accumulating a massive pile of hitpoints, we have mainly kept out of melee and UMD'd a wand of Magic Missile; with Raging Vitality there for emergencies when we had to rage for hitpoints and be ensured they didn't collapse upon going unconscious. -- But at 5th, the wand gimmick is out of gas, and it's time to buy a Belt of Giant Strength +2 and a STR+4 composite bow.
06 ninja4 [Uncanny Dodge][Rogue Talent:Trap Spotting]
...getting automatic Perception checks to notice traps is better than "finding" them the hard way.
07 barba2 [Improved Uncanny Dodge][Rage Power:Reckless Abandon], Power Attack
...Good level to sink big money into a nice martial two-hander, such as a +1/Furious bardiche). As a moderate-STR build, you actually receive a large percentage gain in damage from Power Attack than does a stronger character.
08 ninja5 SA+3d6, CON>16
09 ninja6 [Combat Trick:Mobility], Spring Attack
...and this point, you can do some serious damage darting into and out of the reach of BBEMs with your now Keen-upgraded polearm delivering sneak-attacks.
Improved + Greater Feint is another option (but more suited to TWF toe-to-toe builds).
10 ninja7 SA+4d6
11 ninja8 [Forgotten Trick], FEAT
12 ninja9 SA+5d6
Final stats at 12th, assuming both a Belt and a Headband of Perfection for a +2 to everything:
STR:14 (18 while raging)
DEX:16
CON:18 (24 while raging)
INT:14
WIS:14 ("18" for purposes of will saves while raging)
CHA:18