I was, however, toying with the idea of possessing one of the minions in the pre-buff stage via jar and equipping him with the Wand of Dim Anchor as a fake out. In the end it seems like it eats too many actions.
Well whith all the pre_buffing you made already you could even enter the fight whith Magic Jar on already.And by the way ,he wouldn´t need to dump his will save to make this work whith a high intteligence a good cognatogen and spell focus and that trait that gives you +1 DC to a single Spell you could have a Save DC of around 26-27 maybe more.That means his Will Save would have to be really good and trust me it wont be.He will concentrate all of his recources on INT,CON and DEX
The more I think about it the more I like this strategy.
At this point Magic Jar is probably the best buff you can have,beacause you dont have to worry about Save or Dies anymore at all.Your possesed Minion gets slain no problem back tothe jar and posess another one.
And if the Moment is right take a free action to return to the Jar and then Save or Die the Wizard.Seriously the worst that could happen to you is that the gem gets destroyed and that would only mean that your soul returns to your original body,so no biggie.
If you do it like that you take alot of scaryness from the wizard
Might give one of your Minions a Wand of reached Touch of Idiocy too.
Its cheap and if you get through with it you have the perfect opportunity
The more I think about it the more I like this strategy.
At this point Magic Jar is probably the best buff you can have,beacause you dont have to worry about Save or Dies anymore at all.Your possesed Minion gets slain no problem back tothe jar and posess another one.
And if the Moment is right take a free action to return to the Jar and then Save or Die the Wizard.Seriously the worst that could happen to you is that the gem gets destroyed and that would only mean that your soul returns to your original body,so no biggie.
If you do it like that you take alot of scaryness from the wizard
It's interesting; my biggest problem is that it leaves my body helpless. I guess I could surround it with body guards willing to jump in front of rays or whatnot, but it begs him to nuke me with quickened empowered fireballs or whatnot. I suppose I could order like half of the minions to act like they pass out as soon as combat begins, but then they're really wasted. Also, True Seeing will reveal which are the illusory duplicates and which the original.
Also, I could create Doppelganger Simulacra and shift into them as a full-round action without Magic Jar (which also happens to require a full-round action).
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For the record, I'll be interested in seeing how this duel turns out once it actually happens.
As powerful as wizards have the POTENTIAL to be this is often not quite the case in any situation where the player doesn't, in fact, have full knowledge of every variable.
In a weird way a wizards versatility is often it's weakness. There is so much it CAN do that the best way of doing something can be very difficult too find.
In case anybody's following along, I think I'm doing more work than the average DM on this. I've decided on 19 simulacra (and one true Mister E) to make up this Enigma Platoon. Have broken it down into (bearing in mind d4+1 prep time, so a minimum of two rounds)
Wand Wielders
Who buff with Dex Mutagen and Cat's Grace, and time permitting, Aid, Expeditious Retreat, True Strike. Each has a Wand of Touch of Idiocy.
Smart Bombers - Cognatogen and Cat's Grace. Pound with Concussive Bombs.
Medics (most likely 3)- load up on healing extracts and buff everybody with communal Ant Haul.
Suicide bombers (probably 2) - Buff with Expeditious Retreat and Amplify Elixir. Given Infused Detonate.
Meat Shields - Barkskin, Bear's Endurance - Stay with Mister E and hop in front of rays, monsters, whatever.
All of this nonsense flying around the field ought to give Mister E enough time to buff himself with Echolocation, Overland Flight, Spell Resistance, Death Ward, Resurgent Transformation. He also holds the Wand of Dimensional Anchor and is prepared to slam Mister Wizard with Dispelling Bombs and Poison Bombs.
I hope it's effective. But oh lord the paperwork.
In fact, I'm utilizing every aspect of Cognatogen. The Smart Bombers will boost Intelligence, the Medics will boost Wisdom, and the Village Idiots (Touch of Idiocy Wand Wielders) will boost Charisma to up their UMD skill bonus to 11 (Mister E is Dangerously Curious) to reduce Wand Fizzle. (True Strike will help insure that they hit). The Meat Shields, on the other hand, will boost Con at the expense of Charisma. Probably the Suicide Bombers, too.
There will inevitably be a few who boost Dex, and Mister E will consume some Greater Cognatogen to boost his Int and Wis (Will Saves), so about the only kind of mutagen I won't be using is Strength buffing.
Just remember that Touch of Idiocy don't stack with itself (you only use the largest penalty).
Is that true? Well, I guess I'll have to keep nailing him until I hit 6, then.
I've reduced it to only one of those (starting to pay attention to my budget).Hopefully between that and Dispelling his gear I can knock out at least a bonus daily 8th level spell. If he doesn't make it, oh well. I probably got him to waste a quickened action taking out the Idiot, and that's one less zap my way.
Don´t forget to post the outcome and a summary of the fight.
Go get em boy:)
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Don´t forget to post the outcome and a summary of the fight.
Go get em boy:)
Probably won't happen 'til after the weekend.
In the meantime, here's my budget:
Tome of Clear Thought +1 27.5K
Ring of Spell Turning 100K
Belt of Dexterity +4 16K
Ring of Evasion 25K
Wand of Dimensional Anchor (Summoner 3) 15.5K
Wand of Touch of Idiocy 4.5K
Rod of Cancellation 11K
Cloak of Resistance +4 16K
Studded Leather 25
Total: 215.5K
Simulacra:
Creation: 700
Explorers Outfit: 10
Pocketed Scarf: 8
Goggles: 10
Alchemist Kit: 25
Studded Leather: 25
Backpack: 2
Total: 780
19 Simulacra: 14820
2 Snipers:
Heavy Crossbow: 50
Drow Poison x 2: 150
Total: 400
Total Budget: 230745
The current feat/discovery tree:
Dangerously Curious
Reactionary
Noncombatant
1 Point Blank Shot, Iron Will, Improved Initiative (noncombatant)
2 Cognatogen
3 ED: Infusion
4 Spontaneous Healing
5 Greater Iron Will
6 Concussive Bomb
7 Extra Bombs
8 Fast Bombs
9 Smoke Bomb
10 Force Bomb
11 ED: Alchemical Simulacrum
12 Greater Cognatogen
13 ED: Greater Alchemical Simulacrum
14 Poison Bomb
15 ED: Dispelling Bomb
So that's almost 10k left over; I have yet to budget out the scrolls; the alchemist is pretty spell-starved compared to the wizard (who can also manufacture just as many simulacra, by the way). I did make up a chart today and numbered them 1 thru 20, and rolled for Mister E's placement on that list (it goes without saying that all of them will be identical in outward appearance with the exception of the two snipers). I picked up a bunch of extra extracts, so I think I'll have to use the APG Human level bonuses to cough up a few hit points for bonus extracts.
I suppose I'll have to draw up individual character sheets for all these goons now, since there'll probably be tons to keep track of during the battle. Incidentally, I'm fashioning his appearance after Walter Bishop (King of All Alchemists). I'm going to try and design a paper mini over the weekend based on Walter and print up 20 of them and mark them up.
Ta for now!
Make sure you get the delayed consumption extract.
Also, protection from alignment is great for avoiding controlling type enchantment spells.
Use vomit swarm on him if he fails his save and is staggered.
Make sure you get the delayed consumption extract.
Also, protection from alignment is great for avoiding controlling type enchantment spells.
Use vomit swarm on him if he fails his save and is staggered.
What would I use Delayed consumption for? Seems like it turns one extract into two, when time resources are scarce. It also eats up a top-shelf extract, when I already have more than I can pay for.
Mind you, it's a great spell for a 15th level Alchemist to have as a contingency, but there are only 2-5 rounds of buff time; if I take Mutagen or do so much as load a weapon before that, so can the wizard, and I would rather not have the wizard operating with dozens of buffs on him.
You should get a (Two Stone or more) Ring of Delayed Doom as a backup to the Ring of Spell Turning.
You should get a (Two Stone or more) Ring of Delayed Doom as a backup to the Ring of Spell Turning.
Not a terrible idea, since I could probably use my sleight of hand to swap the two as a move action. At this point, it's more about budget. I really like the idea of the rod of cancellation to take care of a forcecage or prismatic wall. Not sure what else to dump.
Do you really need that Tome of clear thought?
Also iI would again suggest to make that Wand of Touch of Idiocy reached
by that I mean put the Reach Spell Metamagic on the Spell (makes it into a Close range Ray 30 feet+5feet per caster level)should be easier to hit with that.
Do you really need that Tome of clear thought?
Also iI would again suggest to make that Wand of Touch of Idiocy reached
by that I mean put the Reach Spell Metamagic on the Spell (makes it into a Close range Ray 30 feet+5feet per caster level)should be easier to hit with that.
Tome - Cognatogen'd, it gets me up to a 28 Intel, can't be dispelled (can mutagen be dispelled? I'm thinking no, since it's not a spell). No headband means that the real Mister E is indistinguishable from the false ones, and nondetection is in his toolbox.
At the risk of opening a can of worms, how does a non-caster apply a metamagic feat to a wand?
Date has been set for this Thursday. Changed around some things and wrote up all the character sheets with my time off this weekend. My opponent is pretty confident; I suspect spying (here) but won't say anything.
Wrote a new rule proposal
Revised rules
20 point buy.
Core Races Only
No leadership feat cohorts or hired NPCs.
Constructs, creations, simulacra and summoned monsters are permitted.
No 3rd Party Material.
No deific interference.
Terrain will be randomly determined.
Anything that can be purchased according to Paizo rules may be used to equip and/or prepare the character.
Characters will be placed randomly. Any gear/ creatures, vehicles/ buildings that the character has purchased, manufactured, or summoned, that cannot be held on his person will also be placed randomly, with the exception of mounted creatures.
Characters may prepare spells/extracts ahead of time, but no casting or item activation until the queue period.
Characters will each be permitted the same amount of queue prep time, equal to 1d4+1 rounds, to be determined on the day of battle.
Players may "tap out" and resign the contest at any time, regardless of turn. Characters forced to resign against their will does not end the contest.
Wizzy player only wanted to add Permanent Spells to that list. I can't possibly object since my character will be coming in with a small army of duplicates that took much time and gold to prepare. We did agree that none of the permanent spells would be location-based, since neither character (nor player) have any idea of where they'll be fighting. So hopefully he'll spend it on See Invisibility, since I wasn't going to bother with Invisibility anyway.
Also spent some time scanning the wizard spell list. Seems like my worst enemies are ball lightning, prismatic wall, and repulsion, which at our level will basically fill the map. Actually, any decent wall spell could be a nightmare. If he knew what I was up to and was a Treantmonk follower he could do worse than to throw up walls, summon baddies to herd, and zap with quicken'd (via rod) chain lightning spells. Fortunately most of my guys will be flying.
As of this moment we have no ref; if you're in the Philadelphia Area and you want to volunteer for the position, post some contact method and let me know.
While dotting my I's, it occurs to me that a rod of absoption might be a better choice than a ring of spell turning. Half the cost, and it'll almost certainly have more than 9 levels of spells (and up to 50). The bad news is that I'll have to hold it, but so what? It soaks up most of the save or dies that he'll throw at me, and frees up a whole lot of gold to buff my platoon.
Are you all increasing the costs of disposable magical items as per the suggestions for "one off" games?
?
Are you all increasing the costs of disposable magical items as per the suggestions for "one off" games??in a single combat, a wand is essentially an unlimited use item.
once ever becomes effectively 1/day
Where does this come from? I'm not familiar. And I'm still not clear on the concept.
Now I'm really confused. How does "Supremely Cheaper"="Increased Cost"?
Anyone have a link?
Now I'm really confused. How does "Supremely Cheaper"="Increased Cost"?
Anyone have a link?
Nah, i doubt it is RAW.
i've already said why it is, a 1 ever item becomes a 1/day item in a single combat et al
But wands have 50 charges in them. So...
I realize I'm coming late to this party, but looking through here there was a thought that crossed my mind and I didn't see suggested.
Have you considered the Implant Bomb feat? Where you're looking at having a small contingent of helpers with you, this could potentially be a good way for you to turn the tables on the wizard, particularly if the arena that is chosen features enclosed spaces, where the wizard will be up close to the creatures when he destroys them.
And since you can apply any of your bomb affecting discoveries to implanted bombs, you could use this as an easy means of creating zones that are difficult for the wizard to go through. A couple dispelling bombs inside your creatures could really put a hole in any preparations he makes.
Just a thought.
It's interesting, but I see a few problems:
1. It sucks up two feat/discovery slots (one for the delayed bomb, one for implant bomb).
2. Dispelling bombs have no splash damage (or any damage at all), and only dispel on a direct hit.
3. At 8d4 Force damage, that means 1200 per implanted bomb, more than doubling the cost of the simulacra. And if I'm just going to 4d6/4d4 Sim Bombs, why bother?
4. The splash damage is just as likely to hit the other simulacra.
5. The duration is 24 hours, and it eats up my available bombs, and I'll need lots to chuck at my opponent via fast bombs.
6. Wiz will almost certainly be flying and it will be very difficult to exercise battlefield control against him, so I'm focusing on straight blasting.
Alchemists have terrific control elements in their toolbox (bottled oozes, zombies, strafing, poison bomb) but they're mostly restricted to landbound battles. If this were an infiltration job, I could see trying it, but this will be an arena battle.
This seems way more like a villain/NPC feat to me. An interesting challenge to get the bomb out of the princess/key witness/informant before it goes off. Or BBEG could send out kids with implanted bombs, and now the PCs really have a reason to hate him.
But I like the out-of-the-box ideas. Keep 'em coming.
Whoever goes first wins.
Whoever goes first wins.
Well, I'm not so sure. I'm confident of going first because between me and the boy's I'll be rolling 20 seperate initiatives. All of them will have Improved Init and at least two of them will be operating under Anticipate Peril. So unless he's playing a diviner, I'm counting on at least half of them beating my opponent.
But what if he simply allows himself to be destroyed, wakes up in his clone, picks the appropriate magic item off his shelf, and teleports in with a delayed blast fireball? I full expect that this could happen. I thought about it myself, but the helm of Teleportation is way more expensive than 19 armed copies.
Just remember that Touch of Idiocy don't stack with itself (you only use the largest penalty).
I'm not seeing this anywhere.
Touch of Idiocy: With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Don't most penalties stack?
Just remember that Touch of Idiocy don't stack with itself (you only use the largest penalty).I'm not seeing this anywhere.
Touch of Idiocy: With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Don't most penalties stack?
Check out: Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
Check out: Same Effect More than Once in Different StrengthsJust remember that Touch of Idiocy don't stack with itself (you only use the largest penalty).I'm not seeing this anywhere.
Touch of Idiocy: With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Don't most penalties stack?
This makes sense to me. In the same way that multiple fox's cunning's wouldn't make one super duper smart, multiple touch of idiocies (touches of idiocy) shouldn't render one moronic. Hopefully I can get it down to the low 20's, though.
I also argue that an alchemist's bombs can't critically fumble because they can't critically hit. A 1 is simply a guaranteed miss, just as a 20 is simply a guaranteed hit. Anyone else go by this rule?
No one ever answered the "how a non-caster puts reach metamagic on a wand" question.
No one ever answered the "how a non-caster puts reach metamagic on a wand" question.
A Caster applies Metamagic to a Wand during item creation, so you should be able to get a Metamagic Wand the same way you get every other Magic item that you didn´t create yourself. Just adjust the cost to the increased spell level, so a Wand whith a first level spell and a metamagic that increases the spells level by 1 has the cost of a second level wand.
A Caster applies Metamagic to a Wand during item creation, so you should be able to get a Metamagic Wand the same way you get every other Magic item that you didn´t create yourself. Just adjust the cost to the increased spell level, so a Wand whith a first level spell and a metamagic that increases the spells level by 1 has the cost of a second level wand.No one ever answered the "how a non-caster puts reach metamagic on a wand" question.
So that effectively doubles the price of the wand, which is a shot in the dark to force him to cover melee to begin with.
Nah. True Strike is much cheaper, and it'll be terribly disappointing when the dupe goes up in flames as is.
My DM and I are going to have a duel. He's going to play a Wizard and me an Alchemist. We have not set the date for this duel.
So far the rules are:
level 15 (via 2d10)
20 Point Buy
Core Races Only
Pathfinder Spells Only (no 3.5 imports).
3rd party Ref (GM, really).
A few rules I'm going to suggest:
No 3rd Party Material - stick to CRB, APG, UM, UC, Bestiary.
3rd Party Ref designs the dungeon in which we'll duel and decides which of us has "home court advantage" via dice rolling.
No leadership NPCs or hired goons, but summoned critters/created critters (i.e. zombies, simulacra) are permitted.
Any thoughts? My initial thoughts are:
Human, mindchemist.
Fast Bombs. Overland Flight. Mummification+cold bombs+cold detonate.
Greater Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance.
Doppelganger simulacrum. At least 2 clones. Assume 1st clone will be squished/crunched by 15th level God Wizard. Outfit with what appears to be decent gear but is actually traps and cursed items (so that the first casualty will not feed him any decent gear).
Any constructive advice is appreciated.
Ta!
Rules of the duel? Magic items? There's a "ring", or no space limitations?
How many buffs?Btw, this use of rpg doesn't have much sense ;)
Check out: Same Effect More than Once in Different StrengthsJust remember that Touch of Idiocy don't stack with itself (you only use the largest penalty).I'm not seeing this anywhere.
Touch of Idiocy: With a touch, you reduce the target's mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can't reduce any of these scores below 1.
This spell's effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Don't most penalties stack?
Ah, ok makes sense.
My DM and I are going to have a duel. He's going to play a Wizard and me an Alchemist. We have not set the date for this duel.
So far the rules are:
level 15 (via 2d10)
20 Point Buy
Core Races Only
Pathfinder Spells Only (no 3.5 imports).
3rd party Ref (GM, really).
A few rules I'm going to suggest:
No 3rd Party Material - stick to CRB, APG, UM, UC, Bestiary.
3rd Party Ref designs the dungeon in which we'll duel and decides which of us has "home court advantage" via dice rolling.
No leadership NPCs or hired goons, but summoned critters/created critters (i.e. zombies, simulacra) are permitted.
Any thoughts? My initial thoughts are:
Human, mindchemist.
Fast Bombs. Overland Flight. Mummification+cold bombs+cold detonate.
Greater Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance.
Doppelganger simulacrum. At least 2 clones. Assume 1st clone will be squished/crunched by 15th level God Wizard. Outfit with what appears to be decent gear but is actually traps and cursed items (so that the first casualty will not feed him any decent gear).
Any constructive advice is appreciated.
Ta!
Rules of the duel? Magic items? There's a "ring", or no space limitations?
How many buffs?Btw, this use of rpg doesn't have much sense ;)
Keep reading. I answer those questions in a post on page 3. The ring will pretty much be the map at his house (it's pretty big). Probably it'll be a dungeon, to keep the material on board.
Bad use of RPG? For you, maybe. For us it's a nice duel of wits and lets us blow off some aggression; DM gets to wail on me without it f#%$ing up a campaign or hurting feelings, and I get his A game without a TPK.
Be AMY. Win init. roidclawpounce.
AMY?
Update?
Update?
Duel postponed until tomorrow night. Meantime I've started rolling up extra (and simpler) Alchemists, since he's pretty confident of speedy victory and says he's found a way to "nullify" bombs (my guess is wind wall/displacement, any other ideas?).
Update?Duel postponed until tomorrow night. Meantime I've started rolling up extra (and simpler) Alchemists, since he's pretty confident of speedy victory and says he's found a way to "nullify" bombs (my guess is wind wall/displacement, any other ideas?).
Anti-magic field... but that hurts him more since you can just close and beat him down.
Anti-magic field... but that hurts him more since you can just close and beat him down.Update?Duel postponed until tomorrow night. Meantime I've started rolling up extra (and simpler) Alchemists, since he's pretty confident of speedy victory and says he's found a way to "nullify" bombs (my guess is wind wall/displacement, any other ideas?).
I equipped one with a scroll of AF and gave another a Greatsword to try this tactic it failed.
We have just finished round 4. Things are going fairly well for me so far. No mind blank, no invisibility. Magic jar failed, but the attempt didn't kill me. 5 sims are down. 1 from flesh to jelly, one from baleful polymorph. 2 detonated (amplified). More from his onyx elephant's trample.
Rod of cancellation vs fickle winds spell - does this work?
Wiz has fickle winds, along with 2/3 of summoned succubi.