Yeah it really is going to be needed, as the martials biggest 'thing' is the 'I can do this all day and weather through all your spells until things are just right for me to use my one super tactic.'...whic would be an autowin, and awesome. But I don't think anyone could pull it off. Too many chances to roll a 1, too many ways to defeat any build.
Agreed but hey it's worth the try. I would settle for a 70% win rate.
I'm also thinking about the following to stymie AM:
Wizard 2/ fighter 5/ Arcane archer 4/ eldritch knight 9.
That's BAB 19 and 12th caster level... but the real ticket is getting his CMD so high that AM can't sunder his buffs. Going human will put that up to a 34 without anything but BAB and favored class bonus fighter. Factor in his strength and dexterity in addition to dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses and the like and we can easily be talking about the 60+ range of CMD. This would be extra funny if this guy then proceeds to sunder observed state.
That's BAB 19 and 12th caster level... but the real ticket is getting his CMD so high that AM can't sunder his buffs. Going human will put that up to a 34 without anything but BAB and favored class bonus fighter. Factor in his strength and dexterity in addition to dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses and the like and we can easily be talking about the 60+ range of CMD. This would be extra funny if this guy then proceeds to sunder observed state.
This will hit a problem.
AM's attack bonus while power attacking on a sunder is ~+49. He can strength surge if he absolutely needs something sundered up to +69. If he stops power attacking, this becomes ~+75.
You need a LOT bigger CMD than 60 even with the +5 to spell sunder a buff to get around that surge, and infinite rage rounds would mean infinite cycling, which means he could do it every attack.
That's BAB 19 and 12th caster level... but the real ticket is getting his CMD so high that AM can't sunder his buffs. Going human will put that up to a 34 without anything but BAB and favored class bonus fighter. Factor in his strength and dexterity in addition to dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses and the like and we can easily be talking about the 60+ range of CMD. This would be extra funny if this guy then proceeds to sunder observed state.This will hit a problem.
AM's attack bonus while power attacking on a sunder is ~+49. He can strength surge if he absolutely needs something sundered up to +69. If he stops power attacking, this becomes ~+75.
You need a LOT bigger CMD than 60 even with the +5 to spell sunder a buff to get around that surge, and infinite rage rounds would mean infinite cycling, which means he could do it every attack.
I'm not convinced that rage cycling is allowed -- I'll grant it a pass if I get spell perfection back, and will continue to look for more ways to increase CMD so you can be aware of where your limit needs to be.
I'm not convinced that rage cycling is allowed -- I'll grant it a pass if I get spell perfection back, and will continue to look for more ways to increase CMD so you can be aware of where your limit needs to be.That's BAB 19 and 12th caster level... but the real ticket is getting his CMD so high that AM can't sunder his buffs. Going human will put that up to a 34 without anything but BAB and favored class bonus fighter. Factor in his strength and dexterity in addition to dodge bonuses, deflection bonuses and the like and we can easily be talking about the 60+ range of CMD. This would be extra funny if this guy then proceeds to sunder observed state.This will hit a problem.
AM's attack bonus while power attacking on a sunder is ~+49. He can strength surge if he absolutely needs something sundered up to +69. If he stops power attacking, this becomes ~+75.
You need a LOT bigger CMD than 60 even with the +5 to spell sunder a buff to get around that surge, and infinite rage rounds would mean infinite cycling, which means he could do it every attack.
Using multiple free actions a round is far different from trying to turn a 9th level spell into a 17th.
There's precedent for the first one.
|
lots
I think AM is just sleeping on battybat as battybat charges around the globe at super-fast speeds.
When I typed 'majority' I was being entirely accurate. You did not consider the context of 'casters on this thread'.
It is a shame that this fun topic is occasionaly marred by antagonism, my friend. Try to act in a manner which I dictate.
Using multiple free actions a round is far different from trying to turn a 9th level spell into a 17th.
There's precedent for the first one.
There's also precedent for effects taking a full round and a limit to free actions. Sorry man I'm not granting this one for free.
You get it pass the rules forum and I'll believe that, otherwise it sits in the same trashcan as 17th level spells.
Besides I got precedent for spells with total level over 9th too: Greater metamagic rods, arcane concordance, magical lineage just to name a few and then I can hit the Theologian archetype.
Using multiple free actions a round is far different from trying to turn a 9th level spell into a 17th.
There's precedent for the first one.
There's also precedent for effects taking a full round and a limit to free actions. Sorry man I'm not granting this one for free.
You get it pass the rules forum and I'll believe that, otherwise it sits in the same trashcan as 17th level spells.
Besides I got precedent for spells with total level over 9th too: Greater metamagic rods, arcane concordance, magical lineage just to name a few and then I can hit the Theologian archetype.
The limit is based on 'if something is not logical,' so the question becomes 'how many times can you logically become angry and calm down within 6 seconds while stabbing someone five times with a lance.'
It's a good philosophical exercise anyway.
|
|
The problem here, however, is that AM's stated goal is to beat any and all casters. If the caster is capable of setting up a network via his spell arsenal, that's not escalation. That's being a spellcaster. If AM is to beat all casters, he must be able to deal with this.
Is this the goal AM stated, or the one you have stated for AM?
Both sides are capable of conquering nations and building huge armies (probably start by slaying Linnorms and uniting the whole LotLKs) but we probably don't want to have to integrate this into the thread, do we?
Using multiple free actions a round is far different from trying to turn a 9th level spell into a 17th.
There's precedent for the first one.
There's also precedent for effects taking a full round and a limit to free actions. Sorry man I'm not granting this one for free.
You get it pass the rules forum and I'll believe that, otherwise it sits in the same trashcan as 17th level spells.
Besides I got precedent for spells with total level over 9th too: Greater metamagic rods, arcane concordance, magical lineage just to name a few and then I can hit the Theologian archetype.
The limit is based on 'if something is not logical,' so the question becomes 'how many times can you logically become angry and calm down within 6 seconds while stabbing someone five times with a lance.'
It's a good philosophical exercise anyway.
Hey I'm good for a drop and restart each round which would allow up to two sunders a round (sunder is one of the 'you can replace an attack with this things' right?).
The problem here, however, is that AM's stated goal is to beat any and all casters. If the caster is capable of setting up a network via his spell arsenal, that's not escalation. That's being a spellcaster. If AM is to beat all casters, he must be able to deal with this.Is this the goal AM stated, or the one you have stated for AM?
Both sides are capable of conquering nations and building huge armies (probably start by slaying Linnorms and uniting the whole LotLKs) but we probably don't want to have to integrate this into the thread, do we?
Probably not.
AM's stated original goal was for me to have a blast typing in allcaps about how awesome barbarians are. The memetic mutation and the goal mentioned above were all unintended but awesome side effects of achieving the original goal of "allcaps, fun, barbarians."
Seeing as how this has been a blast I've achieved my stated goal. Statting AM is a further exercise in the concept, as I sort of stumbled ass-backwards into an awesome idea and realized it after about six pages on the CMD thread.
Never leaving well enough alone, I wanted to see how far I could logically take this concept were I to hyperoptimize it. It has definitely gone way away from the original basic theory of "Barbarian + Bat = Win," but as long as it remains fun, and as long as the end result is RAGELANCEPOUNCE, I don't honestly care. Read whatever goal you like into this. :P
EDIT: I just realized that this literally means I did a thing that gives castys fits by accident. Unpredictability is indeed the bane of casters.
So, Trinam.
AM is very Impressive. What does he do in a different scenario?
Lets pretend he is walking out of the Tavern after a night with the Ladies. Thinking how badass he is he shoves his way past the dude coming in the door? Dude takes issue with it, insults are traded, roll initiative.
Could AM kick as much tail?
(Off topic but I've updated the Inv. Rager build for your guide if you wanna peek
Human= Favored Bonus: 2 to skills, 18 to Superstition
2 traits- Strong Will (+1 will saves- Cayden),
Missing Sibling (sense motive and diplomacy are class skills)
1. Fast Movement, Rage, Power Attack, Raging Vitality
2.DR1/-, Lesser Beast Totem
3.Extreme Endurance, Improved Sunder
4.DR2/-, Power: Strength Surge
5.Extra Rage Power: Superstition
6.DR3/-, Cold Resist1, Beast Totem
7.Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
8.DR4/-, Witchunter
9.Cold Resist2, Combat Reflexes
10.DR5/-,Gtr Beast Totem
11.Greater Rage Dazing Assault
12.Cold Resist3, DR6/-, Come and Get Me
13.Extra Rage Power: Spell Sunder
14.DR7/-, Eater of Magic
15.Cold Resist4, Raging Brutality
16.DR8/-, Ghost Rager
17.Tireless Rage, Extra Rage Power: Smasher
18.DR9/-, Cold Resist5, Surprise Accuracy
19.Extra Rage Power: Sunder Enchantment
20.Mighty Rage, DR10/-, Good for What Ails You
In this scenario (which may be far more likely, since AM is 'ALWAYS GETTING ALL THE LADIES' as he puts it. Probably spends a fair amount of time in taverns.
Lets say he Loses initiative to Draco, the 20th level Orc Eldritch Heritage Bloodlined Two Handed Fighter.
Draco has lunge and quicken sla (Power of Giants) so he closes to 15ft of AM, and makes a Devastating Blow (Stunning Assault Activated) which hits AM's Crappy AC cause Between a +5Greataxe, Gtr Wpn Fcs, Duelist Gloves, Wpn Training, Boots of Speed and a Str (with a Belt) of 34 his to hit with Power Attack and Stunning Assault is still +35.
The hit is worth approx 214damage becuase it's a critical. Draco has Staggering Critical and Cause He used lunge the hit doesn't provoke AM's CAGM rage power. AM also has to make a fort save vs Stun DC30 (the attack is not a spell so no superstition). Either way AM is Staggered for at least 1 round and has to make a 2nd save to avoid staggered for 1d4 rounds.
I'm not sure what AM's Fort save is WITHOUT SUPERSTITION. Or how many HP he has left. By my reasoning he has 20x6(ave dice)120+120(16Con+Belt of Physical Perfection 6)+80(Mighty Rage bonus HP)= 320 totalo so about 106left.
If he saves, he can make 1 standard or Move action.
Is AM screwed? He doesn't threaten Draco yet (10ft away) and if he closes he can't attack. If he moves away Draco will charge and Lunge strike him again with a stunning assault regular hit for 72Damage (AM is now at 34ish) and AM has had to make 2saves vs stunned now and 1 vs staggered for 1d4rds. Good chance of failing 1 of these?
I may be missing ALOT here, it's 4am...
I know all this hinges on initiative but I wanted to come up with a Melee that could have an even chance to drop AM...
Draco's Initiative is +11
I assume you're using the auto critical ability of your class, right?
I ask because it does not allow effects added to critical hits.
He also lacks CAGM. Mounted barbarians lack room.
His fort save with no superstition is ~+24 or +29, depending on if he's raging.
This means he would most likely save against the stun.
I guess the next thing to do would depend on if AM thought the guy would fall in one full attack, and where BATTY BAT is.
Oh dear...you know...I would love to see this party in action...ragelancepounce, mutagenlancecharge, challangelancecharge and now dragonragedoorfullattackdoor...
I have had an idea... >.>
Be right back.
I assume you're using the auto critical ability of your class, right?
I ask because it does not allow effects added to critical hits.
He also lacks CAGM. Mounted barbarians lack room.
His fort save with no superstition is ~+24 or +29, depending on if he's raging.
This means he would most likely save against the stun.
I guess the next thing to do would depend on if AM thought the guy would fall in one full attack, and where BATTY BAT is.
Ohhh, Bleary eyes. I hate nightshift.
Forgot about the no crit effects thing.No CAGM? I thought he had it?
Problem solved. AM Can be killed by a Fighter who can full attack AM First for over (about) 320-340 damage? That's doable.
So Barb beats wizard beats fighter beats barb.
Paper, rock, sissors. Balance is a wonderful thing :)
AM NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK FULL ATTACK CASTY WHILE CASTY SLEEPS. NINJA AM BARBARIAN'S SECOND COUSIN. NINJA AM ALWAYS INVISIBLE. IF WAKAZASHIS AND KUSARI GAMA NO WORK, AM NINJA AM USE HIDDEN CROSSBOWS. BECAUSE HIDDEN CROSSBOWS AM COOLER THAN HIDDEN GUNS.
AM BARD AM SINGING PRAISES OF AM PARTY WHILE GETTING ALL THE LADIES!
I assume you're using the auto critical ability of your class, right?
I ask because it does not allow effects added to critical hits.
...snipped
Devastating blow disallows weapon special abilities (ex. flaming burst) from activating, there is nothing said about feat effects. I would have personally gone the critical feat line. Having a guaranteed staggered and (insert crit debuff here) is quite the way to ensure a simplified fight.
edit: I missed that you had staggering critical already. Why not go straight for stunning crit instead of stunning assault?
|
I assume you're using the auto critical ability of your class, right?
I ask because it does not allow effects added to critical hits.
He also lacks CAGM. Mounted barbarians lack room.
His fort save with no superstition is ~+24 or +29, depending on if he's raging.
This means he would most likely save against the stun.
I guess the next thing to do would depend on if AM thought the guy would fall in one full attack, and where BATTY BAT is.
Wouldn't it be easier to just Sunder the fighters Greataxe first and then either full attack him or just walk outside (if the fighter isn't wearing a spiked gauntlet) since he no longer has a weapon to take the AoO with, jump on BATTY BAT. Then as soon as the fighter comes outside RAGELANCEPOUNCE him to death. (If he doesn't come out then just Sunder the bar to kill him)
I assume you're using the auto critical ability of your class, right?
I ask because it does not allow effects added to critical hits.
...snipped
Devastating blow disallows weapon special abilities (ex. flaming burst) from activating, there is nothing said about feat effects. I would have personally gone the critical feat line. Having a guaranteed staggered and (insert crit debuff here) is quite the way to ensure a simplified fight.
edit: I missed that you had staggering critical already. Why not go straight for stunning crit instead of stunning assault?
So a 2handed fighter can permanently stunlock anything it can hit forever?
That is awesome.
I didn't go for stunning crit cause my fighter is payable at all levels. Took Dazing Assault at 12, retrain for Stunning at 16. Unlike crit feats they are on/off when you want.
Build has Critical focus and staggering because it's a good effect that is nice. Stunning Crit is too late to be a game changer at 17.
I didn't go for stunning crit cause my fighter is payable at all levels. Took Dazing Assault at 12, retrain for Stunning at 16. Unlike crit feats they are on/off when you want.
Build has Critical focus and staggering because it's a good effect that is nice. Stunning Crit is too late to be a game changer at 17.
Yeah, the only response I've got involves having heavy fort armor negate the critical, at which point it's anyone's guess what happens next.
I guess the next thing to do would depend on if AM thought the guy would fall in one full attack, and where BATTY BAT is.
BATTY BAT AM FOUND LADY BAT FLY VERY FAST, AM CHASE LADY BAT. SORRY IF AM BARBARIAN ON OWN FOR THIS ONE, BUT LADY BAT AM LIKE WONDERFUL SQUEAKY SOUND BATTY BAT HEAR IN DREAMS OF BATNESS. AM BARBARIAN UNDERSTAND, RIGHT?
I guess the next thing to do would depend on if AM thought the guy would fall in one full attack, and where BATTY BAT is.BATTY BAT AM FOUND LADY BAT FLY VERY FAST, AM CHASE LADY BAT. SORRY IF AM BARBARIAN ON OWN FOR THIS ONE, BUT LADY BAT AM LIKE WONDERFUL SQUEAKY SOUND BATTY BAT HEAR IN DREAMS OF BATNESS. AM BARBARIAN UNDERSTAND, RIGHT?
AM COOL. BE BACK IN TIME FOR CASTY DROP ON EVERYONE HEAD WITH LIKE FIFTY BALORS FROM DISCERN LOCATION. CITY GUARD AM PROBABLY WANT BARBARIAN HELP WITH THAT ONE.
AM COOL. BE BACK IN TIME FOR CASTY DROP ON EVERYONE HEAD WITH LIKE FIFTY BALORS FROM DISCERN LOCATION. CITY GUARD AM PROBABLY WANT BARBARIAN HELP WITH THAT ONE.I guess the next thing to do would depend on if AM thought the guy would fall in one full attack, and where BATTY BAT is.BATTY BAT AM FOUND LADY BAT FLY VERY FAST, AM CHASE LADY BAT. SORRY IF AM BARBARIAN ON OWN FOR THIS ONE, BUT LADY BAT AM LIKE WONDERFUL SQUEAKY SOUND BATTY BAT HEAR IN DREAMS OF BATNESS. AM BARBARIAN UNDERSTAND, RIGHT?
AM BATTY BAT BRING BACK LADY BAT, AM BARBARIAN GET RIDE BOTH LIKE TWO HORSE IN CIRCUS. AM BARBARIAN PROBABLY WIN ON STYLE POINTS ALONE, NOT EVEN NEED OBSERVED STATE.
NAAH. AM LOANING LADY BAT TO FIGHTY WITH STUN CRITICAL.
...BARBARIAN JUST HAVE AWESOME IDEA.
BEST WAY FINISH ANY FIGHT AM SMASH CASTY.
FIGHTY AND BARBARIAN READY ACTION TO KILL CASTY WHO AM DROP IN ON BARBARIAN.
DEAD CASTY, FIGHT OVER, ALL WELL WITH WORLD.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
I will expend money first:
1. I will have a clone.
Good plan.
2. Druid companion will cast Commune with Nature looking for powerful unnatural creatures and people in area prior to my exiting my home.
AM is human. BATTY is half-elf. Neither is an unnatural creature. Spell does nothing.
Whether an eidolon merged with a half-elf counts as an unnatural creature is less clear; it depends on whether the eidolon becomes the summoner or the summoner changes type to become an outsider while merged. At best, the CWN might tell you, "yes, there are 14 outsiders within an 18-mile radius" (which includes the 13 outsiders you have on permanent staff inside your domicile :).
3. I will use Contact Other Plane prior to leaving my domicile asking the questions:
a. Is someone trying to kill me today?
b. Is the person trying to kill me in the immediate area?
c. Is the person a wielder of arcane magic?
d. Is the person a skilled warrior?
You get the gist.
This all might work. Unless AM has a 1/day magic item that provides mind blank, which he might; he's 20th level and it only would cost 48,000 gp. He is previously stipulated to be wearing sunglasses. He could certainly be wearing a cool hat as well.
4. I will then use lesser planar binding to summon a succubus who I will force to do my bidding.
As described by someone else, compelling a called/bound outsider requires an opposed Charisma check. The rules do not allow you to waive that requirement by simply threatening to kill them or being more powerful than them. You CAN kill them, certainly, but that just means you have to cast the spell again and hope for a better result on the opposed Charisma check. If you fail the check, they don't obey. Period.
You can modify the Charisma check with bribes, threats, etc. as described in the planar binding spell description. You don't get to skip it entirely because you are JUST THAT BADASS.
I will force her to disguise herself as me and fly about outside my domicile. I will watch her with a greater scry spell as she does so. At the distance you are attacking from, it is doubtful you will make the necessary Sense Motive or Percption to see that she is not me.
5. Once you have attacked the succubus and killed her and I will gather information on you either by watching you kill her or speaking to her dead spirit once I put her body back together. Then it will be my turn.
You won't see AM kill her. As stated previously in the thread, in order to avoid antilife shell/antimagic field, AM charges with Lunge, which means he's 15' away when he kills the succubus to death. Scry only sees in a 10' radius. You see a lance suddenly appear and then your scrying sensor goes blank. Scrying creates an effect (magical sensor) but it targets a creature (hence it allowing a Will save and SR). Once the succubus is dead, it is an object, not a creature, which is not a valid target for scrying; therefore your scrying effect ends at the point of death, before AM comes into view.
*If* you are able to recover her body in a sufficiently anatomically intact condition (or enough of it to put back together), you can limited wish a speak with dead and ask it 10 yes/no questions, to which answers will likely be evasive since a succubus compelled to disguise herself to her death is likely to be hostile towards you (as stated in SWD, the spirit retains its attitude towards you that it would have had in life).
Still, that's IF you recover the body. BATTY might be hungry.
Since you still have never seen AM or even know it's him (rather than AM CAVALIER or AM SAMURAI or even AM ELDRITCH KNIGHT out moonlighting) you don't have much to go on for scrying.
6. Wait until you aren't raging and send a variety of minions including CR 20 outsiders to kill you and your henchmen. Make you expend a ton of rage rounds beating said minions. Once you are expended or perhaps during the fight, you are meat toy to play with.
Yes, the handwaved combat. How and when are you automatically finding AM, much less finding him when he isn't raging?
I'll continue the build, but you get the gist of what I'm going to do to you.
I get the gist of what you're trying to do to AM.
The main problem with fighting a wizard is I have far, far more options than you do with nothing more than changing a spell. So I can expend feats and such building up my hit points and still retain a massive amount of versatility.
This is all true.
I'm probably going to use a Reached Euphoric Tranquility to completely elimnate you from the combat. Destroy your henchmen. Then annihilate you. What do you have to counter a Reached Euphoric Tranquility?
I wonder if you've read the thread up until now. You just cast reached euphoric tranquility on yourself, since AM has spell turning in effect whenever he's outside of his magic-dead demiplane lair.
Just an FYI, I chose a druid for the massive summoning ability. I intend to wear you down before I take your life and soul.
It might help.
I want the final build. I'd like to know how the Synthesis Eidolon doesn't sleep considering the Summoner himself is still a humanoid and still requires sleep to recover spells and such. How does the summoner, who is fused with the eidolon, avoid fatigue.
1 level of oracle with the lame curse. Immune to fatigue. What's the penalty for not sleeping? Fatigue.
As far as recovering spells, for all those who critique AM for having a CASTY as a mount, here's the answer: BATTY NEVER CASTS ANY SPELLS. The only spell BATTY has ever been mentioned as casting is summon eidolon once, after the eidolon had been banished by some effect or other. BATTY never has to sleep to regain spells since he basically never casts them. He probably has some prepared, but he's never actually used one.
That's right, AM has a "caster" cohort that doesn't cast spells. That's why AM doesn't know he's a CASTY... :)
He also must have spent almost every single evolution point on flight to move at the speed he is moving at and large size. Which means his eidolon has very other abilities.
Probably. I have no idea what the synthesist build looks like.
I plan to hit him with a mage's disjunction while he's sleeping.
Yeah, funny thing, I don't think AM sleeps either. Even if he did, he'd be sleeping on the back of BATTY, who is constantly flying at 97 mph or somewhere thereabouts.
How exactly are you finding BATTY remotely, appearing immediately in the location where he IS (not where he WAS when you scried him), and then casting the spell?
Eliminate his permanent arcane sight and any other enhancements. And make him and his henchmen save for every piece of his gear while he's not raging. See how well he does.
It's a great leadoff... if you can pull it off. Explain how you accomplish that, and we'll see how well you do.
I also intend to show up with as whole ton of minions all of us veiled to look the same, see how many he can see through.
See, now THIS is a good idea. Of course, as soon as they attack he ges a save to see through them, which is likely to succeed. They also light up like Christmas trees to arcane sight, showing auras (including illusion).
I might even use an illusion to hide a wall spell since he has to follow the straight line of the charge. That will stop him in his tracks.
An illusion can disguise a wall as something else of equivalent size. It cannot make the wall invisible; that is, it cannot disguise the wall as "empty air" or "nothing."
I'll use the summoned fiends to chain cast word spells until his eidolon fails a will save and is banished while he is flying on it when I teleport in out of nowhere. Watch the two of them plummet to the ground.
Unlike you, your allies do not automatically get to act in a surprise round, assuming there is one.
Let me see. How many powerful summoned minions can I have.
A horde of elder air elementals to create hard to fly circumstances for him.
Meaning fly around and stand in his way? Whatever *logical*/real-world sense it might make for a creature like an air elemental to be able to make the air turbulent and difficult to fly through, in the actual rules they are no more able to do so than any other creature of identical size.
gate in a balor or similar creature to chain words.
Your balor can cast precisely one word per round as a standard action, which has a small chance of affecting BATTY if not raging and almost none if he is raging.
Also, you are aware that gate has a duration of concentration (up to 1 rd/level) if you actually want to control what the balor does, rather than setting it a task (for appropriate compensation) and having it do what it likes. Your balor may or may not actually follow your directions if you have it on retainer vs. actually controlling it.
Get True Name twice for a couple of 18 hd Planetar's, Astradaemons, or some other such creature.
Two Greater Planar Binding spells to summon in a few more powerful outsiders.
Sounds good. Which outsiders, and what are they going to do to AM or BATTY that will actually harm or impede them. Don't get me wrong, bringing in allies is a great strategic move; you just seem to want to declare that they appear and by their mere appearance declare victory.
Then my henchment can summon in a bunch of giants and elementals as well as use his Lion to wrestle with the Eidolon. He has pounce and grab. I'll make sure to get him the Grapple line unless of course everyone has Rings of Freedom of Movement.
Most likely they do, but you won't know that until after your lion has already charged.
So let me see, the minimum I'm bringing to the party:
1. A 20 hd outsider
2. 4 18 HD outsiders
3. 1d3 Elder Elementals from me
4. 1d3 Elder Elementals from my henchmen
5. A big old lion animal companion buffed to the gills.
An interesting corner case is whether if AM used spell sunder on a group of elementals summoned by a single spell (whether SNA/SM or Elemental Swarm) - if he hits ONE, does it sunder the entire SPELL (which is how spell sunder typically works) or does it only dispel/banish the one he hit? Not entirely clear.
The larger issue is that you are using several full-round short-duration spells, plus several 10-minute casting spells, all on the hope that your scrying or other divination to actually FIND AM/BATTY pays off. Okay, you load up for bear, you're ready to go, and fizzzle. The scry doesn't work. YOU have to wait until tomorrow to scry him again. Now what?
Only some of these spells have actual cost, but many have action cost, such as the opposed Charisma check to negotiate with the high-CHA balor each time you gate him in, which you almost always lose, so you have a lot of opposed CHA checks before you actually get one willing to hang around and help out.
Your plan relies on an unlikely, though theoretically possible, combination of you performing all of the likely preps, making all of the necessary checks, AM/BATTY failing all of the necessary saves, and still needs to then answer the question of how you are planning to teleport all of these creatures instantly to a conditional location, when only some of them can teleport and only YOU actually know where the teleport is going.
Let's say everything works. You have found AM, scried him, cast a quickened greater teleport (greater metamagic rod), and you can take along yourself, your cohort, your cohort's animal companion (which is buffed to the gills so probably has animal growth) so he's huge... and one other medium creature, which you don't have in your crew.
Your demons/etc. can try teleporting there on their own, but they don't have a reliable description of the area, since it's simply somewhere in midair, so their greater teleports all fail and they end up where they started. Your elementals stay behind because they are too big to teleport with you. Your druid could try taking them with transport via plants, but that presupposes that you have the right plants in the right place to make it happen. That would let you take one elemental with you.
Tell me again how this works out well for you?
You might do better the next time, after you die the first time and your clone wakes up.
Possible idea: Merciful weapon. With a way to inflict negative levels, this would negate clone.
Or just throw them in a pit in the dead magic demiplane he got while I wasn't paying attention. (He does that a lot. Like balors, barbarians are hard to control.)
|
|
Possible idea: Merciful weapon. With a way to inflict negative levels, this would negate clone.
Or just throw them in a pit in the dead magic demiplane he got while I wasn't paying attention. (He does that a lot. Like balors, barbarians are hard to control.)
The dead-magic demiplane sounds awesome.
Where have you been keeping it?
Possible idea: Merciful weapon. With a way to inflict negative levels, this would negate clone.
Or just throw them in a pit in the dead magic demiplane he got while I wasn't paying attention. (He does that a lot. Like balors, barbarians are hard to control.)
The dead-magic demiplane sounds awesome.
Where have you been keeping it?
We'd have to scry to find out. Oh, wait. This might be a problem...
|
So AM is flying continuously on BATTY BAT. Sometimes he's asleep. BATTY BAT is never asleep. No problem there. Wait, one small problem: how does he get more lesser restoration items? That's an exploitable weakness (and no, I'm not going to post how to do it again; I've already done so once). Yeah, he can have a lot of them...but he'll eventually run out. Then he's got to land and go shopping.
How will he see the wizard? I posted a bit ago that my wizard will have a +85 to his stealth. With a bit of tweaking, I can get it up to a DC 125 or so to see me. How's he going to make that check? I can just wait in the middle of the default clearing and wait for him to come by. I'm going to get surprise on him, aren't I?
How will AM beat two straight waves of exhaustion spells, both cast before he can rage? Out of rage, he's a decent combatant, but no match for a wizard.
Oh, honey. Leave those squishy little things alone and come back to bed...
...NOW!!!
|
|
So AM is flying continuously on BATTY BAT. Sometimes he's asleep. BATTY BAT is never asleep. No problem there. Wait, one small problem: how does he get more lesser restoration items? That's an exploitable weakness (and no, I'm not going to post how to do it again; I've already done so once). Yeah, he can have a lot of them...but he'll eventually run out. Then he's got to land and go shopping.
How will he see the wizard? I posted a bit ago that my wizard will have a +85 to his stealth. With a bit of tweaking, I can get it up to a DC 125 or so to see me. How's he going to make that check? I can just wait in the middle of the default clearing and wait for him to come by. I'm going to get surprise on him, aren't I?
How will AM beat two straight waves of exhaustion spells, both cast before he can rage? Out of rage, he's a decent combatant, but no match for a wizard.
I got this one, BATTY BAT makes them while he's flying. He is an Oracle after all and has at least one unused feat and you can craft while adventuring. He took Craft Wondrous Item and every day while flying crafts a dead casty finger of Lesser Restoration and gives it to AM for breakfast.
WHILE WIZARD AM FOCUSED ON AM BARBARIAN, AM NINJA SNEAKING INVISIBLY WHOLE TIME WHILE WIZARD DISTRACTED, AM NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK WIZARD WITH TWIN WAKAZASHIS, IF AM NO WAY TO GET CLOSE ENOUGH, AM NINJA HAVE TWIN HIDDEN REPEATING MINI CROSSBOWS, AM MUCH COOLER THAN HIDDEN GUNS. HIDDEN MINI CROSSBOWS AM KILL WIZARD FROM ANY DISTANCE, BECAUSE AM NINJA HAVE ALL NINJA TRICKS, AND ALL ROGUE TALENTS, MEANING AM NINJA CAN SNEAK ATTACK FROM ANYWHERE.
So AM is flying continuously on BATTY BAT. Sometimes he's asleep. BATTY BAT is never asleep. No problem there. Wait, one small problem: how does he get more lesser restoration items? That's an exploitable weakness (and no, I'm not going to post how to do it again; I've already done so once). Yeah, he can have a lot of them...but he'll eventually run out. Then he's got to land and go shopping.
How will he see the wizard? I posted a bit ago that my wizard will have a +85 to his stealth. With a bit of tweaking, I can get it up to a DC 125 or so to see me. How's he going to make that check? I can just wait in the middle of the default clearing and wait for him to come by. I'm going to get surprise on him, aren't I?
How will AM beat two straight waves of exhaustion spells, both cast before he can rage? Out of rage, he's a decent combatant, but no match for a wizard.
Dunno why he'd need them aside from rare cases, but it's pretty easy to call for takeout.
Congratulations, you have made a guy who never moves and simply waits for a man he likewise cannot see, a net 0 win game. Except AM can move.
In the event it ever does somehow happen? Move to grab lesser restoration potion. Standard to drink it, moving it to fatigued. Allnight negates fatigue. Rage. Murder casty. (This seems to be the final action quite often.)
|
|
Wait, one small problem: how does he get more lesser restoration items?What lesser restoration items? BATTY is immune to fatigue. Do keep up. This has been explained about five times.
Also, by literal applications of the rules, you can rage at any time. Raging is a free action, as is speech. Speaking is explicitly allowed outside of your turn. Free actions can be done "while taking another action normally". Thus, you can speak and rage at any time.
Heh. Yeah, I'd forgotten about the reasoning behind BATTY BAT's insomnia.
The rage is a different matter. Sure, you can rage as a free action. But you can't take any actions, not even free ones, before your first turn in a combat. So my wizard casts waves of exhaustion on the surprise round, then again on the first round of combat. He's got a +40 to his initiative, so AM isn't going to win, and he's hiding really well, so AM isn't going to get to act in the surprise round.
WHILE WIZARD FOCUS TOO MUCH ON AM BARBARIAN, SNIPING INVOKE -20 TO STEALTH, WAVE OF EXHAUSTION AM STILL SNIPING. AM NINJA ALWAYS INVISIBLE AND AM NINJA ALWAYS SEE INVISIBLE. INVISIBLE CASTY GAIN NO BENEFIT AGAINST AM NINJA AND NINJA KILL DISTRACTED WIZARD, CASTY DEAD. WIZARD AM HAVE CLONES? AM NINJA AM HAVE COUNTLESS DOPPLEGANGERS.
Oh, honey. Leave those squishy little things alone and come back to bed......NOW!!!
BUT BARBARIAN WANT SMASH MORE CASTYS...
AM NINJA CAPSTONE AM MAKE AM NINJA COMPLETELY UNDETECTABLE, EVEN TO MAGIC AND SPECIAL SENSORY POWERS. WIZARD SPELL AM NOT WORK. NINJA AM KILL WIZARD. NINJA AM WIN.
|
|
Congratulations, you have made a guy who never moves and simply waits for a man he likewise cannot see, a net 0 win game. Except AM can move.
In the event it ever does somehow happen? Move to grab lesser restoration potion. Standard to drink it, moving it to fatigued. Allnight negates fatigue. Rage. Murder casty. (This seems to be the final action quite often.)
Why do you assume I can't see AM? I've got a +40-ish to my perception. And AM isn't hiding. Or is he flying around invisibly, hoping the casters don't see him?
Also, I'm not done with my turn. Remember, I've still got a quickened spell (which, in all likelihood, is the WoE) and a move action. And out of rage, I'd be willing to bet I can disable you, especially since I'll start by taking out BATTY BAT. Now I'm flying, and you're not. Oh, another thing: BATTY BAT is exhausted, too. So no charging, and I'm faster than you (and invisible to boot, if I choose). I'm not sure how you're going to get to me to murder me.
BUT BARBARIAN WANT SMASH MORE CASTYS...
Oh, honey. Leave those squishy little things alone and come back to bed......NOW!!!
HOW ABOUT WE AM DOUBLE TEAM THIS CASTY AND PICK UP GIRLS IN TAVERN? CHEAT ON WIFE AND YOU AM GET DIVORCE. WITH AM DIVORCE, YOU AM FREE TO DO WHAT YOU WISH. EVEN KILL MORE CASTIES.
YOU HEAR SOMETHING, AM? I CAN'T DETECT ANYTHING, SO MUST BE IMAGINATION...
YOU HEAR SOMETHING, AM? I CAN'T DETECT ANYTHING, SO MUST BE IMAGINATION...
BARBARIAN NOT HEAR ANYTHING.
BATTY BAT NOT CHARGING.
...GUESS NOT? WAIT. BARBARIAN THOUGHT BARDS AM WOMAN.
Incidentally, pretty sure AM already declared everyone the winner, no?
That is the point. There really are no losers here. Anyone who spends any amount of time trying to kill this silly build is wasting their time because honestly it should never see play. And IF it does, it should be smote down for the silliness that it is. Are there holes in it? Sure, nothings perfect. But what I think everyone is missing here isn't about showing that "Wizards aren't as superior as they think they are" or "Martial characters can destroy all". It's about having fun with your character.
Truth be told, as Maddigan pointed out, in the long run AM BARBARIAN can't compete with casters because after the first dozen or so casters he RAGELANCEPOUNCES, measures are going to be taken to put him down and nothing anyone will come up with be able to stop it all.
My point about why "even if you beat him you lose" is valid is because you are wasting your time to do so. If this character was an NPC in my game and Maddigan gave me the tactics he posted to take this guy out two things would happen: First I would look at his character sheet to see if he's evil. Second, I accuse him of metagaming. The second one would of course lead to a huge argument to which no one would win. Why would I acccuse him of metagaming? Because he is using Player Knowledge to take on AM BARBARIAN. This is the equivalent of the DM saying "You see a large green skin humaniod" and a player going "It's a troll, we need to use fire and acid to kill it" with NO KNOWLEDGE checks. Sure, we as gamers know that to kill a troll you need fire and/or acid, but the characters may not know that yet, or they may have forgotten, etc. That's why there is a knowledge check. Sure, once that formality is out of the way, have at it, but it's an important part of the game. If Maddigan were to tell me he was going to use those tactics because he saw some random barbarian dive bomb some other caster, he's metagaming. If, on the other hand, it's because he's been RAGELANCEPOUNCED or because he was hired to do so or because he saw his best friend get murdered in this manner or etc., then sure no problem because he has a justifiable reason to attack AM. (One last note, if AM BARBARIANs fame is high enough and Maddigan legitimately considers him a menance/threat I wouldn't question that either.)
I may be wrong, but I don't see this build as a "way to kill all castys ever!" but more as a "Hey wouldn't it be cool if I made the most ridiculous character ever to give casters something to think about".
AM NINJA AM JUST KILLED WIZARD. NINJA AM INVITE BARBARIAN TO GO TO TAVERN FOR DRINKS. WE AM PICK UP LADIES, YOUR WIFE AM DIVORCE YOU, YOU AM GET ALL FREE TIME YOU WISH. WE AM BECOME GREAT CASTY KILLING TEAM.
WAIT. BARBARIAN THOUGHT BARDS AM WOMAN.
NOPE. AM A MAN, AND LADIES IN TAVERNS KNOW IT. EXCEPT YOUR WIFE.
AM MAKING GATHER INFORMATION CHECK. KNOW NOT TO HIT ON AM'S WIFE.